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Da King
2008-04-15, 11:02 AM
Hello all. You may remember the dual-wielding obsessed Samurai that has plagued my group. In short, I have challenged him to a one on one fight between two Level 20 fighters to attempt to make him realize how little he knows about actually making a melee character. This battle was originally proposed by Dwight T. Barnes the Batman wizard and isn't set up the way I'd like (only fighter, ugh....), but it is a good compromise. Here are the rules for the fight so far:

1. Only 20 levels of fighter. No prestige classes, multiclassing, or variants.
2. No instant death effects or very powerful weapon bonuses, such as Vorpal and Prismatic Burst. Basically anything that could end the fight with a natural 20.
3. No allies, cohorts, hired help, or animals of any kind. Summoning is okay though, strangely enough.
4. Standard Wealth by Level for a Level 20 character.
5. 40 point buy for stats.
6. Hp is not rolled. Full + Constitution at first level, 6+ constitution at every other level.
7. No healing items/effects of any kind. ANYTHING that restores HP is not allowed
8. LA+0 races only.
9. No PunPun.
10. Most books are allowed, must be cleared by the "DM" of the fight, Dwight T. Barnes.
11. No custom magic items or Homebrew.
12. No aligment based magical effects of any kind. So no weapons that deal extra damage against lawful creatures, for example.

So, that's all the rules We have cleared so far, I'll add any more as they come up. This epic battle shall take place on May 19th, which gives both of us lots of time to plan. The books I have to use are : Core + PHB2 + every complete except complete mage + Psionics(probably won't be needed) + heroes of Battle + MIC + SC + MM4.

Now, here is what I know he will do. He will be dual wielding, and will do everything he can to increase the number of attacks he gets, so he will probably take all the TWF feats, Spring attack, bounding assault, and rapid blitz. I know he will be using the Raptor School Tactical feat form CW, and probably oversized TWF. He will proably NOT use shock trooper. Monkey grip is also likely, as well as Weapon focus, greater Weapon focus, Weapon specialization, and the rest of the feats in this chain from the PHB2 if he can get it. Anything that will increase available attacks of opportunity is likely. Karmic strike will probably be used.I know he will be using speed weapons From the DMG. And I expect him to show up using Two bastard swords.

So, that's all I know about what he will do, so now time for what I will do. Here are some of the Tactics I have considered:
1. Abuse UMD if possible. Get Some wands and start firing. What spells do you reccomend fo this battle?
2. Break everything he has. Grab a Adamantine Great hammer (1d12 damage, 19-20/x4 crit, +2 on sunder attempts versus weapons and shields. Take improved sunder and optimize the character to deal massive amounts of damage and have a very high chance to hit. Take shock trooper, All the weapon focus/specialization/supremacy feats, Crushing strike, combat expertise, improved combat expertise, combat reflexes, and that's all I can think of right now. Get magic items to prevent him from getting full attacks, and try to increase weapon size categories to ridiculous amounts for the sheer awesomeness. Take combat brute.
3. Use ranged weapons, flying, stay back and try not to get hit.

All, right, I'm tired, I hope there are not too may spelling mistakes. So, ready to help me?

Frosty
2008-04-15, 11:10 AM
Power Attack is good...but in this kinda setting, one feat will screwover your entire offense: Elusive Target.

I'd advise against disarming, since locked gauntlets are easy to get, and go for Sundering instead. Maybe tripping if you're comfortable with that.

If you think he'll go Spring Attack, and you have the Tome of Battle, you can spent 2 feats to get Thicket of Blades, so all of his movements provoke AoOs from you.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 11:10 AM
1) Don't use UMD it's not needed. Similarly, don't use Range.

Build a Shocktrooper Charger with Karmic Strike and Roblilar's Gambit. You will do so much damage he will cry.

Or go with the break stuff plan, but you missed the most important feat for that, Combat Brute. Sundering Cleave everything in sight, then use the rest of your attacks to hit him. Also use AoOs to Sunder if he pulls out anything new.

Almost no matter what, use Spiked Chains.

Dwight T. Barns
2008-04-15, 11:12 AM
Hi, yes i am the Actual Dwight listed above, and i just wanna say that Da King has thisdream in My campain where he weilds a giant meat hammer so he can tenderize his foes. this seems to be what option 2 is all about. i though, that option 3 is the least expected, flying and shooting? who would ever bring that to a fighter erm... fight. i know how Samuri Mcdualies thinks and he will go hard and fast, he won;t even consider anything defensive.


I cast my vote for option 3.

sikyon
2008-04-15, 11:17 AM
1) Don't use UMD it's not needed. Similarly, don't use Range.

Build a Shocktrooper Charger with Karmic Strike and Roblilar's Gambit. You will do so much damage he will cry.

Or go with the break stuff plan, but you missed the most important feat for that, Combat Brute. Sundering Cleave everything in sight, then use the rest of your attacks to hit him. Also use AoOs to Sunder if he pulls out anything new.

Almost no matter what, use Spiked Chains.

Seconded. MASSIVE DAMAGE with shocktrooper and friends.

riddles
2008-04-15, 11:18 AM
i'd suggest having a look here (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339) for fighter builds.

if he's looking at being quite mobile, a chain tripper build might be useful. a goliath (races of stone) with a spiked chain, improved trip, combat reflexes and a magical way of enlargement (enlarge person? not sure if this is valid on the goliath race) would be quite handy

your other option is a foot charger build - power attack, leap attack, improved bull rush, shocktrooper. use your magic items to get AC as high as possible and then pump it into leap attack with shock trooper.

what's the arena you're fighting in? dungeon crusher (UA) is a great varient for charging fighters with shock trooper.

or, mounted combat. use leadership to get a viable mount, take a magical lance and the mounted charging feats.

[EDIT] so that's what it's like to be ninja'd

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 11:21 AM
Buy a few Belts of Battle (MIC).
Buy a few +1 Shields of Time Butress.

Ignore any of his full attacks that he manages to attempt to make.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 11:26 AM
Goliath is LA +1, only LA +0 races allowed. And I highly advise against Shock Trooper builds because Power Attack can be negated so easily. A high mobility character will likely alreayd have dodge and mobility as feats. It is a SIMPLE matter to pick up Elusive Target, and all your damage from Power Attack is negated.

Chain tripper isn't bad. Using Stand Still is also good.

Da King
2008-04-15, 11:27 AM
Buy a few Belts of Battle (MIC).
Buy a few +1 Shields of Time Butress.

Ignore any of his full attacks that he manages to attempt to make.

You are now my god. Is it possible to wear more than 1 belt (but only one will function) and then take them off as they are used?

Da King
2008-04-15, 11:38 AM
Hmmm, Elusive target could definitely screw up what I'm planning. However, I don't think he is planning on taking it. Does anyone know where I can find a online character sheet creator?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 11:38 AM
You are now my god. Is it possible to wear more than 1 belt (but only one will function) and then take them off as they are used?

That depends on how cheap your DM lets you be.

Duke of URL
2008-04-15, 11:41 AM
If you want to prove a point, I'd stay away from UMD cheese. Better to humiliate him with a straight combat build.

Since you're expecting him to be going for mobility and number of attacks, you're looking for damage reduction and ways to a) punish him for moving and b) keep his movement from helping him.

The good news is, you have bucketloads of feats. (18, I believe, for non-humans). You're going to need them, as I think the following 13 are essential:

Combat Reflexes Combat Expertise Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain Improved Trip Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain Knock-Down Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain Dodge Karmic Strike Weapon Mastery: Piercing Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain

Edit: I wasn't familiar with Thicket of Blades... but, oh yeah, that'll work PERFECTLY!!!

If he's going to be charging, add Hold The Line to the "must have" feats list. Power Attack is a nice-to-have, but not a must-have. Improved Combat Expertise might be a good idea if you can get around having to have a high AB (see equipment, below).

Get one or more potions of enlarge person and have him come to you, using Karmic Strike and possibly Combat Expertise to get that AC back. He provokes an AoO just entering your threatened area, and another for any successful hit; you should ave a DEX of at least 14, so that's 3 AoOs per round you can take. Knock-Down lets you get a free trip attack any time you do 10+ damage, so he might not even be able to get to you.

Take a whack at him on your turn and make sure to be out of his threatened area so that he wastes his move action standing up, and can't reach you on a standard action. If you're already far enough away, unload on him with a full attack, possibly with Power Attack. If he manages to stand but can't reach you, knock him down again.

Abilities: STR max, DEX 13+, CON max, INT 13+, WIS dump, CHA dump

Equipment: STR (AB/damage/TRIPPING!), CON (HP), DEX (AoOs) boosts are key.

I'd suggest a brilliant energy spiked chain, to compensate for the fact that you're sacrificing AB a lot for Combat Expertise and/or Power Attack.

Armor should be adamantine full plate, to get the DR 3/-. An animated shield would be a good idea, too.

One or more potions of enlarge person really makes this work.

Hal
2008-04-15, 11:42 AM
If you go the Leap Attack/Shock Trooper path, consider adding in Power Throw/Hurling Charge. It let's you throw a weapon at the start of a charge, effectively giving you two attacks on the charge.

To make it work effectively, though, it requires 4 feats, so it might be too intensive to add into Leap Attack/Shock Trooper if that's what you're looking at.

Da King
2008-04-15, 11:46 AM
okay, the meathammer is awesome but I think the spiked chain has been proven better. That's what I will go with now. Can someone PLEASE help me find an online character sheet so I can start a first draft?

Duke of URL
2008-04-15, 11:52 AM
http://www.thetangledweb.net

http://www.myth-weavers.com/

Da King
2008-04-15, 12:09 PM
Alright, here's the plan so far:
Weapon: Brilliant Energy spiked Chain
Race: Human
Feats: (thank you duke of URL)
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Improved Trip
Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Knock-Down
Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain
Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain
Dodge
Karmic Strike
Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing
Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain
Improved Sunder
Power Attack
Combat Brute
Mobility
Elusive Target
Robilar's Gambit

There, What do you think about this?

Edit: Other feats: Driving attack, Shock trooper, Thicket of blades, improved bull rush. What exactly does thicket of blades do? And which of these feats are worth dropping?

TempusCCK
2008-04-15, 12:35 PM
Tanglefoot Bag
When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.



May I suggest one of these? After you knock him down with Knock Down, he's denied his Dex bonus to AC, and since you're making a touch attack, you're now more than likely to hit. Whether or not he saves, he's now moving at half speed, making it much easier for you to crank out the damage on him. Also, if he fails the save, he's stuck and you've got reach. Welcome to Winsville, Population You.

The way I see it, he's got a +6 ref save from Fighter levels, and with a 40 point buy he's going to get at least a 19 Dex for the higher levels of the TWF Chain. That's a minimum +10 to Ref saves, so he's got a decent chance to make that save.

Also, don't forget that the stuff goes brittle after 2D4 rounds, so keep a few extras in your handy haversack for that eventuality.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 12:42 PM
If you want to be real cheap and guarantee the win just buy some Dust of Sneezing and Choking.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 12:56 PM
Alright, here's the plan so far:
Weapon: Brilliant Energy spiked Chain
Race: Human
Feats: (thank you duke of URL)
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Improved Trip
Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Knock-Down
Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain
Greater Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
Greater Weapon Specialization: Spiked Chain
Dodge
Karmic Strike
Melee Weapon Mastery: Piercing
Weapon Supremacy: Spiked Chain
Improved Sunder
Power Attack
Combat Brute
Mobility
Elusive Target
Robilar's Gambit

There, What do you think about this?

Edit: Other feats: Driving attack, Shock trooper, Thicket of blades, improved bull rush. What exactly does thicket of blades do? And which of these feats are worth dropping?Driving Attack boosts Bull Rush, but I recommend against it. Bull Rush is weak. Thicket of Blades is a ToB stance, and requires Martial Study and Martial Stance to learn, but it makes it so Withdraw actions and 5ft steps provoke against you.
If there is anything you can drop in there, I'd pick up Aberrant Blood/Aberrant Reach. Adds 5 ft to your reach, making him provoke even more AoOs. Use that as justification for extended reach, which adds an additional 5 ft to your reach. I'd drop as much of the Weapon Focus chain as possible. If you can drop enough, then pick up Thicket of Blades with another 2 feats.

Also, at the rest of the playground: Is there anything that will replace Dodge in the prerequisites?

Edit: Dust of S&C is cheap, he wanted real advice. Also, Shock Trooper is going to fall under Bull Rushing. Don't do it.

sikyon
2008-04-15, 01:08 PM
Honestly, your power is going to come primarily from your magic items. I'd take a level 20 commoner with full wealth over a level 20 fighter with no wealth any day of the week.

For example, grab an iron flask and target that will save. Make sure to get wings of flying, Dust of Disappearance is great as you can't be seen with even true seeing (Take dust of appearance).

Take some rods of negation. His magic items will be the most powerful parts of his character.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:12 PM
May I suggest one of these? After you knock him down with Knock Down, he's denied his Dex bonus to AC.

Incorrect. Prone does NOT mean denied Dex Bonus. It means a flat minus 4. A prone creature gets no penalty on a reflex save either.

As for Shock trooper, is it *normally* good because it allows you to Power Attack with impunity. I'd get it just for that and usually ignore the Bullrush options unless I go for a Dungeoncrasher build.

I'd skip Power Attack in this fight because of Elusive Target. In a normal game, most monsters don't have Elusive Target.

Duke of URL
2008-04-15, 01:16 PM
I'd drop as much of the Weapon Focus chain as possible.

I added those in because the bonuses to hit will compensate for the AB lost to Combat Expertise, if you're going to use it as anything other than a pre-requisite. Also, Weapon Supremacy offers some nice bonuses, but needs the feat tree to get them.

Personally, I'd drop the PA/Sunder line instead. Focus on doing one thing, and do it well, rather than try to be both a tripper and a sunderer.

Grynning
2008-04-15, 01:17 PM
Just a side note, if your pal really plans to take the full spring attack/bounding assault progression with a Two-Weapon character he's wasting more than half his feats. TWF requires a full-attack, so he can only hit with one weapon at a time if he tries that (there are some maneuvers he could get with martial study, I guess). Secondly, in a one on one fight, Bounding Assault and its upgrade are completely worthless, since you have to pick a different target for each one. If he actually thinks building like this is effective, he's probably grossly misinterpreting the rules. Make sure you read any feat he says he's using carefully. If it turns out he's totally wrong on how something works, just give him a look and say
"You keep on using that feat...I do not think it does what you think it does..."

Da King
2008-04-15, 01:19 PM
I like the feat selection, so lets move on to gear. Wow, dust of sneezing and choking is incredibly evil. I might get it, along with a few tanglefoot bags. Instead of potions of enlarge person, how about potions of giant size? It's enlarge person, but to colossal size. Also, Adamantine weapons are a must for sundering. Poisons probably are not worth it because of the high fighter fortitude save. Belt of battle is definetly in, maybe even 3 or 4. Pshycoactive skins look good, especially skin of Ectoplasmic armor. +8 AC for only 6000gp, although there is a -6 armor check penalty.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:23 PM
Can Giant Size be put into a potion? Is it 3rd level spell or lower? And is it anything *but* range: personal?

If not, then it is not a legal potion.

Duke of URL
2008-04-15, 01:23 PM
The one caveat to size increases -- you lose DEX, which reduces the number of AoOs you can have. Make sure you can still reliably pull off enough AoOs to make his life miserable.

Thrawn183
2008-04-15, 01:25 PM
Did you say he wields speed weapons as in plural? You should mention that bonuses from the same source don't stack. There is pretty much never any reason to have a second speed weapon (unless you're talking about for the purpose of overcoming DR.... maybe)

Also, adamantine weapons have a limit on the hardness they will ignore (its either less than 20 or 20 and anything less, can't remember). I haven't calculated out the hardness on magic items in a while, but you might want to keep in mind that even a non-adamantine magic weapon might have enough hardness to negate the super-sundering ability of an adamantine weapon.

Using tanglefoot bags on prone opponents is a bad idea. They aren't denied their dex bonus to AC AND they get a +4 against ranged attacks. It's pretty much the worst time to use a tanglefoot bag.

Grynning
2008-04-15, 01:42 PM
The problem with sundering magic weapons isn't really their hardness, very few will get higher than 20 (Adamantine will ignore anything up to 19, it says "less than 20."). The main issue is that you can't sunder a magic weapon/item with an enhancement bonus higher than the one you are wielding (which special abilities do not technically count toward). Most people on these boards stack special abilities onto a +1 weapon for the greatest effect because enhancement bonus can be compensated for in other ways. However, other, less creative types may go the full +5 enhancement to hit/damage. Also note that if the brilliant energy feature of your weapon is turned on, you can't sunder in that same round.
Sundering can be very effective though, especially in this type of fight. If he's using a 2-hander vs. a dual wielder, he has the feat and he's drinking giant size/enlarge potions, he'll easily beat the guy's check every time.

Da King
2008-04-15, 01:45 PM
Did you say he wields speed weapons as in plural? You should mention that bonuses from the same source don't stack. There is pretty much never any reason to have a second speed weapon (unless you're talking about for the purpose of overcoming DR.... maybe)

Also, adamantine weapons have a limit on the hardness they will ignore (its either less than 20 or 20 and anything less, can't remember). I haven't calculated out the hardness on magic items in a while, but you might want to keep in mind that even a non-adamantine magic weapon might have enough hardness to negate the super-sundering ability of an adamantine weapon.

Using tanglefoot bags on prone opponents is a bad idea. They aren't denied their dex bonus to AC AND they get a +4 against ranged attacks. It's pretty much the worst time to use a tanglefoot bag.

Good point. His equipment might be hard enough to stop my sundering. He probably won't have anything better than a +5 weapon because of how much he will spread his WBL out, so lets say his main weapon is a +5 longsword. This would mean it has hardness 20 and I can't bypass that.... Anyway to make my adamantine weapons able to bypass a higher hardness?

Frosty
2008-04-15, 01:45 PM
The main issue is that you can't sunder a magic weapon/item with an enhancement bonus higher than the one you are wielding .

I believe that is a 3.0 rule not a 3.5 rule?

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 01:59 PM
Incorrect. Prone does NOT mean denied Dex Bonus. It means a flat minus 4. A prone creature gets no penalty on a reflex save either.

I think he meant after the bag was applied..


Anyway to make my adamantine weapons able to bypass a higher hardness?

Martial Study: Mountain Hammer. Ignore any and all hardness or DR as well as +2d6 damage on your attack.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 02:02 PM
If you make a Sunder build, just get a +5 Weapon, be bigger, get Sundering Cleave, and an Adamantium weapon.

It ignores 20 Hardness, very few weapons have more then that. Even if they do, just Power attack and do a lot more damage (Shocktrooper it if needed) and you will destroy it anyway.

A properly build Sunderer will charge, and Sundering Cleave every single item in view, destroying all of them, Rings and everything in one round.

Power attack for 20 with a leap attack charge and you are already doing 80 damage to each weapon and ignoring 20 Hardness. Find any item that someone actually carries that can stand this, even without Str.

Grynning
2008-04-15, 02:03 PM
I believe that is a 3.0 rule not a 3.5 rule?

Well, holy crap...I guess I never noticed that they took that out...:smallredface:

But hey, that means Sunder is even better. Unless those weapons are hardness 20, the adamantine will go right through (meaning that only a +5 sword or metal-hafted weapon will actually apply it's hardness).

Or take ZeroNumerous's suggestion, use Mountain Hammer. Bye-bye swords. Combine it with Combat Brute (Sundering Cleave) and it's bye-bye fighter at the same time.

Eldariel
2008-04-15, 02:12 PM
I'd play pretty straight Jack B. Quick (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=646185), with added Quick Draw-feat (in case he disarms/sunders your weapons, just have a bunch of +1 Adamantine replacements) and perhaps Martial Study: Foehammer > Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades + Half-Ogre (that would cost 4 feats total, and the build can get by without Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw, Side Step and Power Attack are mostly expendable).

10' reach with two-weapon AoO > Trip-attempts > more attacks from Improved Trip on anything that moves, immunity to Power Attack, two two-weapon AoOs on every attack your opponent lands and one on every miss, free draws to pick up backup weapons at will, double damage AoOs and so on. All that and quite decent bonuses. Hell, if you want, feel free to drop Thicket of Blades and just toss in Weapon Focus > Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing to boost the To Hit and damage. Also, if you want to stop him from moving, Stand Still.

Roderick_BR
2008-04-15, 02:13 PM
There's a "surge" weapon ability on MIC, that allows you to make bullrushes against enemies you hit, pushing them back 5ft. The MIC version allows you to use it a number of times a day, I think. The original version (DMG2, I think) allowed only once a day.
With it, when he tries to full attack you, you can counter with Karmic Strike, and push him back 5 feet. He'll do a 5ft adjust to get close again (that you can use thicket of blades to get another hit), then push him back again with the next hit. He'll get 2 attacks, at best, with a one-handed weapon while you'll have had hit him 3 or 4 with a two-handed weapon.
Finally, if he does the mistake of ending his turn close to you, full attack him, use a surge to push him back on your last attack, then move 5ft back. He'll have to move at least 10ft at his next turn, and won't get a full attack.
You could get KnockBack, but I think you need to be large size.

And the DMG have potions of Enlarge Person. Not as good as Giant Size, but still a good option.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 02:26 PM
... and perhaps Martial Study: Foehammer > Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades + Half-Ogre (that would cost 4 feats total, and the build can get by without Improved Unarmed Strike, Defensive Throw, Side Step and Power Attack are mostly expendable).

LA+0 Races only.

Roderick_BR has a good idea using the Surge ability. The only problem is that you can only do it so many times a day. Whereas with Shock Trooper and Improved Bullrush, you can knock him back for free.

Another thing, you don't actually need to spend a feat on Improved Sunder. Get the "Sundering" enhancement from MIC and you're counted as having Improved Sunder even if you don't meet the prerequistes.

Grynning
2008-04-15, 02:33 PM
If you want to have sundering cleave from combat brute, though, you have to actually have the feat. Depends on if you want to hurt them WHILE your breaking their stuff, or just hurt them before and after breaking their stuff.
I'd take the feat in any case though, fighters have feats to spare and you can get better weapon enhancements.

Sundering is super-dirty either way, it's way easier to do than you would think. A "duel" is the best place to use it too, since using it in a real campaign causes loss of phat lewtz, and everyone cries.

Da King
2008-04-15, 02:34 PM
Where does Mountain hammer come from? ToB? What do I need to get it?
And does the sundering magic weapon enhancement allow me to qualify for combat brute? I don't think it does.

Grynning
2008-04-15, 02:37 PM
Mountain Hammer is a maneuver from ToB. You would learn it by taking martial study.

Eldariel
2008-04-15, 02:37 PM
Oh well, even without the reach, as a Human, he'll be fine. I guess then you'll need to pick up Weapon Specialization > Melee Weapon Mastery with the excess feats to up your combat potential.

Scores should obviously be Str 18 (maxing out at 34)/Con 18 (maxing out at 28)/Dex 15 (it becomes 26 when fully pumped, which is 9 AoOs a turn, meaning enough; I'd probably stick to 24 to save money in the books)/Int 8 (you don't need any more skills; just max out Tumble via. Cityscape ACFs and use the rest to other movement-related stuff - as a Human, you'll be fine)/Wis 8 (you can protect yourself against mind-affecting things with items)/Cha 8 (you're a Fighter)


Getting Enlarge Person permanencied isn't very expensive, so you won't even really miss not being large.

Aquillion
2008-04-15, 02:50 PM
There's no way the fighter is going to win anyway, no matter how much you optimize. Fighters are just too underpowered at higher levels.... the fighter is going to grind your fighter into the dust, and you'll wish you'd rolled a fighter instead of a fighter.

Squash Monster
2008-04-15, 02:57 PM
I say this all the time, but that's because it's the truth:
An optimized fighter is going to either be lockdown, bull rush, or archery based.

This is supposed to be a melee competition, so that leaves lockdown and bull rush. I like lockdown, because it'll make him utterly useless.

The classic lockdown build is a fighter 20 build, but it requires a little material from Tome of Battle and Extended Psionics Handbook, which I didn't notice on your book list. If you can use those, then here's what you do:
Overpowering Attack (substitution level, Player's Handbook 2)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain (helpful, not needed)
Combat Reflexes (not needed in a duel, but take it so the character would be otherwise useful)
Stand Still (Extended Psionics Handbook)
Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades (Tome of Battle)

You also probably want Robilar's Gambit and Defensive Sweep, but those aren't strictly needed.

With this, the key is that Overpowering Attack doubles the damage of your attacks of opportunity. Stand Still lets you make your opponent stop moving instead of taking damage when you do an attack of opportunity, and the doubled damage makes the reflex save insanely high. The rest is just ways to make sure they provoke an attack of opportunity.

Just activate Overpowering Attack and marvel as your friend's spring attacks stop helplessly 5' out of reach.


However, all of this is overkill. If you just use a two-handed weapon and Power Attack for full you'll probably kill him before he kills you. Two-weapon fighting just doesn't work.

Da King
2008-04-15, 03:13 PM
Er, no, it's NOT an utterly melee competition. Archery is just fine.

Nohwl
2008-04-15, 03:16 PM
i would be looking for as much overkill as possible. make sure you win, and make him know that no matter what he did, you would have won easily.

Da King
2008-04-15, 03:20 PM
i would be looking for as much overkill as possible. make sure you win, and make him know that no matter what he did, you would have won easily.

At this point, I can guarantee he is completely doomed. He has no idea how to build a melee character or even how TWF works.

Nohwl
2008-04-15, 03:21 PM
he might have knowledge of optimization forums, and just use one of those as his builds. thats the only problem i see right now.

lord_khaine
2008-04-15, 03:30 PM
he might have knowledge of optimization forums, and just use one of those as his builds. thats the only problem i see right now.

well i guess that would only be fair, since its the same thing Da king is doing...

Da King
2008-04-15, 03:35 PM
You know what? How about something incredibly awesome. Let's say I use the Greathammer. How can I boost the size categories of the weapon as much as possible? Here's what I'm thinking:
Permanent enlarge person 1d12 -> 3d6
Strongarm Bracers 3d6 -> 4d6
Monkey Grip 4d6 -> 6d6

And that's with no magic enhancements. Is there anyway I can put a permanent
enlarge weapon (basically make it one category larger but same weight) spell (CS) on this? What else can be used to increase weapon size categories? what about the 7th level wu-jen spell giant size? Is there anyway I can use that as a fighter? could I make giant size permanent?

Dwight T. Barns
2008-04-15, 03:45 PM
Giant size is Range: Personal si i doubt it can be made permanate, and unless your Wu jen it's no applicable

Da King
2008-04-15, 03:50 PM
Okay, Thanks Dwight (by the way, isn't it Barnes, not Barns?) that helps. Could someone PLEASE oh god PLEASE give me the exact description, benefits, and prequisites of Martial Study: Mountain Hammer?

Dwight T. Barns
2008-04-15, 04:20 PM
ok man, there is a limit on characters iun the name this is what i can fit

SurlySeraph
2008-04-15, 04:50 PM
@^: It's a minimum character limit, not a maximum character limit.

Also, I don't think Monkey Grip stacks with other weapon size enhancers.

Dwight T. Barns
2008-04-15, 04:56 PM
i treid to put an E in but then the S wouldn't fit. and... in the Complete Arcane there is a Special ability that you can get on a weapon called Clouting, stick that on a spike chain and when you hit an enemy they have to make a DC 19 fortitude save or go back 10 feet, meaning you don't ahve to move back for the usual tactic of spiked chain. also it can stun them for 1 turn.

Fostire
2008-04-15, 05:25 PM
i treid to put an E in but then the S wouldn't fit. and... in the Complete Arcane there is a Special ability that you can get on a weapon called Clouting, stick that on a spike chain and when you hit an enemy they have to make a DC 19 fortitude save or go back 10 feet, meaning you don't ahve to move back for the usual tactic of spiked chain. also it can stun them for 1 turn.

A 20th level fighter can easily make that save

Eldariel
2008-04-15, 05:52 PM
Martial Study has no prerequisites of relevance beyond the Maneuver's prerequisites, which is Initiator Level 3, and since all your levels are non-Initiators, that means you'll have progression, so you need character level 6 to pick it. The benefit is that you gain the ability to once per combat use the Mountain Hammer-maneuver, which allows you to use a Standard Action to make a single melee attack that deals +2d6 damage and automatically overcomes Damage Reduction and Hardness. Just read Tome of Battle and it'll all make sense. The book is godsent for melee combatants, although since you don't get to play a martial adept, it's of diminished usefulness.

As far as the other suggested Martial Studies/Stances go:
-Foehammer is likewise IL 3 and therefore requires 6 levels in non-Tob classes (or 3 in ToB-classes, which aren't available), and is a Standard Action attack that deals +2d6 damage and overcomes damage reduction.
-Thicket of Blades is a Stance (Stance is something that you can spend all your time in once you start it, so it's different from Maneuvers in that it's not limited in use for non-ToB characters), and Martial Stance-feat requires one Martial Study in the same school from which you're taking the Stance, hence Foehammer (both are Devoted Spirit). It also requires you to know one maneuver, again Foehammer qualifies you. Finally, it requires Initiator Level 5, which means character level 10 for a non-ToB character. The benefit is that all movement, including Tumbling, Charging and so on in your threatened area gives you an attack of opportunity. It's the ultimate 'you can't run'-ability.

Dwight T. Barns
2008-04-15, 06:32 PM
I talked with the Samuri and he is almost definatly dual wielding bastard swords, try as i might to disway him but... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO two huge swords is cool so it must be good! teehee

Dr Bwaa
2008-04-15, 06:59 PM
I only request that you post the results here for us when it goes down =P

Da King
2008-04-15, 07:31 PM
Oh, I will definitely post the results of the fight. I predict that I win. I'm going to feel kind of bad about it though because we are fighting on his birthday....
Oh, by the way, Dwight here is the "DM" of the match, if you have any questions about what would be allowed or not, ask him.

Eldariel
2008-04-15, 07:50 PM
Here's an idea. Make a bunch of different builds. Like...7. Beat him with all of them one after another in best of 3s 14-0 just to drive the point home. A few builds you could win with:
1. Dungeon Crasher (Knockdown, maybe be Dragonborn with Wings to do it from right above him)
2. Lockdown (just be Large through Enlarge Person Permanencied with Inhuman Reach to never let him land a hit - Freedom of Movement technically does nothing to stop Stand Still since it doesn't take away your movement capability, it simply terminates your action, and Stand Still is in SRD so it should be available)
3. Counterstrike ( la Jack B. Quick; every time he hits you, hit back six times, harder)
4. Charger (with Sundering tossed in as it comes handily with Combat Brute and Shock Trooper just in case he has Elusive Target, which isn't really a given)
5. Intimidator (make him Cower the first round through Imperious Command, if available (Drow of the Underdark) and keep him that way - if you don't have DoTU, skip this or make for some weird Fear-effect stacking build)
6. Archer (while Fighter 20 Archer really sort of sucks, you should still be able to pull something strong enough to win out of your bag of tricks - rack your Tumble up to 40 to move 10' every turn, perhaps flying as a Dragonborn, and take full attacks every turn, with Elusive Target to make Power Attack charges relatively inefficient)
7. UMD - Fight, win, prevail. Just to show the true potency of the skill. This could be part of the Intimidator, of course. If you need one more, you could make a Sneak Attack Fighter (Unearthed Arcana-variant) Greater Manyshot sniper.

Other options include Two-Weapon Wielding Storm Channeler (using Stormguard Warrior; costs a Fighter 4 feats to enter, but is still worth it), Sneak Attack TWF Thug Fighter with enough UMD to summon a flanker/some other way to activate Sneak Attack (I think there're means to make opponent Flat-Footed without using too many actions), some kind of a Grappler (granted, that plan has flaws on level 20, and due to the lack of Grapple-related feats, Fighters make relatively poor Grapplers; would allow you to make use of Superior Unarmed Strike though and would probably still be good enough), etc.


Allow him to use multiples if he wishes to. If his builds are of the level you convey, you should have little trouble winning them all even with suboptimal play. After you're done, teach him something about melee character construction. A lot - all the information used in your variety of characters. That'll save you the trouble of coming up with birthday presents, make him into a good optimizer and win you the day. Everybody wins. And you get to play 14 matches of D&D.

Dryad
2008-04-15, 08:11 PM
I'd say: Go for tactical feats and tricks: Tripping, disarming, sundering, bullrushing, and, last but certainly not least, grappling.

Earthern embrace (Feat; +1d12 dmg on per round pinned) is a great trick to use. Chokehold (After three rounds of pinning, target must make save or go K.O.) is pretty neat, too, but kind of instant kill.

While pinned, your oppenent can do nothing. At all. So while it will take a while, your opponent isn't going anywhere. Also, you can start a grapple with a touch attack. That means: Trip, hit, touch, grapple. Resolve. Your turn. Well; getting out of the grapple, first, then getting up, provoking an attack, and.. Next round. And that's if your opponent wins the second grapple. If they lose: No problem; just pin them afterward, and slowly choke them to death.

It's fun to wave a two bastard swords at someone, but.. In all honousty, it's far more effective in the long run to make sure the person holding the sharp bits of metal can't use them.

dspeyer
2008-04-15, 09:00 PM
Now if he's really clever, he'll be reading this forum, and when you pull out your two-handed, monkey-gripped and most emphatically not light greathammer, he'll drop his ornamental bastard swords, charge and grapple.

The Valiant Turtle
2008-04-15, 09:26 PM
Now if he's really clever, he'll be reading this forum, and when you pull out your two-handed, monkey-gripped and most emphatically not light greathammer, he'll drop his ornamental bastard swords, charge and grapple.

Which is why you should always have a light weapon in reserve. In this case, perhaps a throwing weapon with returning on it, so you have a solid flying + ranged weapon option available.

Eldariel
2008-04-15, 09:31 PM
Actually, 760k gp solves that. 40k more precisely. It takes a madman to engage in this combat without a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

Prometheus
2008-04-15, 10:45 PM
Buy MIC over DMG whenever possible. It will be cheaper and better. There are so many steals in there it is not even funny. It is not meant to be balanced with DMG, and if this is that kind of fight, use it.

Dwight T. Barns
2008-04-18, 08:23 PM
NEW INFO: the Samuri feller has told me of his master plan! anyone heard of Cresent Moon? bastardsword and dagger combo to disarm almost anything, as a fighter he can proballly make the strength check to break any locked guantlets that Da King has... (can you get adamantium locked guantlets?

UglyPanda
2008-04-18, 08:44 PM
Getting disarmed is an opposed check. Spiked chain is two-handed weapon, so it's Da King's +14 versus Samurai Guy's +4. If you just want to embarrass him, take improved disarm and rip off his dagger. If he didn't equip a locked gauntlet, that dagger is going to be gone since light weapons have a -4 penalty against being disarmed (Also spiked chains have +2 to disarming opponents).

Edit: I just calculated, assuming equal strength and equal buffs, he only has an 13.75% chance of disarming if he gets close enough. Don't let him get close enough. AoEs are important.

Edit 2: I forgot, he still suffers penalties for having two weapons, it's +14 versus +2. He's got a 9% chance of disarming, if he manages to hit you with both weapons.

Eldariel
2008-04-18, 08:53 PM
You don't need a plan to defeat him, nor do you need to know his strategy. In this case, all you need to know is his level of play and the rest will automatically work out - just play a generic strong Fighter without metagaming (beyond picking up Quick Draw-feat, which of course is the catch-all solution to all disarm and sunder-tactics) and you'll be fine.

Talic
2008-04-18, 08:59 PM
Don't use locked gauntlets. Limits you too much, if he's tricking you.

Try grapple. Against other humanoids, it's actually quite effective, and, with your fighter feats focused towards it, if can be effective.

And, if he's using weapons without reach, remember the following mantra:

(Ready Action: Drink the potion of Enlarge Person if he attempts to get closer than 10 feet from me.)

Timing: He moves to 10 feet, intending to move to 5.
You interrupt, drinking your enlarge potion. Your Reach becomes 10 feet.
His turn resumes, and he must move closer.
He provokes an AoO.
Grapple.

For Race, I recommend Orc, with the UA Water Variant, and, if you feel like a bit of extra cheese, throw dragonborn on top for +2 Con, and negating all the drawbacks of water and light sensitivity. The final LA is 0. Final stats are +4 Str, +4 Con, -2 everything else.

The rest of the CharOp is better handled by others. This is a grind/control build. It's designed to take a while, but to win. Consistently. For faster win, make your gauntlets +1 Wounding. -2 con per hit.

TempusCCK
2008-04-19, 01:32 AM
The tanglefoot bag isn't supposed to make him easier to hit, it's to slow down his movements so he can't get out of range of your attacks as quickly.

Also, if he's slow, he can't close as easily to disarm you, which seems to be his tactic. Look at the feat from I think ToB that allows you to make a 5 foot step every time you get an AoO, keep him out of bastard sword range. So, you should provoke every time he moves, every time he attacks (with Robilars Gambit), keep him slowed to half speed (with tanglefoots) and then make a couple of five foot steps each round ( one standard, one from the feat, sacrificing a single AoO.) Now, all of a sudden, you're pounding on him, using knock down to trip him, and halving his speed, he should not be able to touch you if you do this right.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 01:58 AM
Now, don't use tanglefoot bags. Use crawling tattoos. Any power of third level or lower, on a psionic tatto, that activates, chases down the target, and manifests on them.

Entangling Ectoplasm ones=5 round entangled basically automatically. at 50 gold a pop, bring a hireling covered with them, as well as your own.

Talic
2008-04-19, 02:01 AM
Alternately:

Ring of Freedom of Movement. Boots of haste. Belt of Battle. Unslotted Belt of Strength (+6). Weapon, +1, with Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Merciful, Vicious, Corrosive, and wounding. Make it a Greatsword.

Add in Ring of Blinking and Pierce Magical Concealment.

Activate Boots of Haste. Charge, Power attack for full, use Shock Trooper to apply the penalty to AC. Activate Belt of Battle for another Full Attack. Throw on Two Weapon Fighting with Armor Spikes (enchanted same as Sword). Final Attacks should be (Assuming Orc, 22 Str +5 to Str from Levels) +20 (BAB) +11 (STR) -2 (TWF) +1 (Weapons) +1 (Haste).

So, the attacks would break down like this:

Charge Attack: +33 (sword)
Sword: +33/+33/+28/+23/+18
Spikes: +33/+28/+23/+18

(Assuming Full TWF tree)
Note: Charge applies until your next action, so all your attacks this round get charge bonus

Damage for each should be:
Sword: 2D6(Base) + 7D6 (Enhancements) + 16 (Str) +1 (Enhancement bonus) +40 (Power Attack), or 88.5 damage a hit (and -2 con, for 20 off max HP as well). Note, this is without Leap Attack.

Spikes: 1D6 (Base) + 7D6 (Enhancements) +5 (Str) +1 (Enhancement bonus), or 34 damage per hit (and -2 con, for 20 off max HP as well).

Even if only the attacks with a bonus of +30 or higher hit, you're looking at a charge, from up to 120 feet away (+30 move from haste) for an average of 299.5 damage in one round, on a charge... AND -8 to con (so, -80 HP on top of that). Granted, if those 4 attacks hit, you'll take 4d6 from vicious. I'm sure you'll live.

EDIT: Note, as a fighter, you have 18 feats to play with, even if you're nonhuman. USE THEM.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 02:10 AM
Impressive. Very impressive.

Because of the rules they're using for hp, it's about 6+con x20, or about 120 +conx20. To survive that, he needs a +9 con mod average over his adventuring life.
Nope. He dead.

Talic
2008-04-19, 04:11 AM
You're not counting in the -8 Con from wounding on 4 hits.

Make that a +13 con mod.

Da King
2008-04-19, 05:47 PM
Wow Talic.... that's pure evil. How do you get the +40 power attack though? I don't understand that. By the way, Here are the feats (not in order)I finally decided to use for the spike chain build:
Weapon Focus: S.C
Weapon Specialization: S.C
Greater Weapon Focus: S.C
Greater Weapon Focus: S.C
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Exocit Weapon Prof.: S.C
Knock-Down
Dodge
Karmic Strike
Melee Weapon Master: Piercing
Stand Still
Overpowering Attack (actually a PHB2 fighter alternate class feature)
Robilar's Gambit
Mobility
Elusive Target

I decided to drop Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder. By the way, what book is Knock-Down from? I know exactly how it works, but I have yet to find it in any of my books and I need to show Dwight All the feats/items/class features I plan to use and what book each one is from.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 06:00 PM
Shock Trooper means he can apply the penalty to AB from PA onto his AC instead. Making it probably negative, but dealing ridiculous amounts of damage.

Eldariel
2008-04-19, 06:04 PM
As far as I know, KnockDOWN is in Sword & Fist and was updated for 3.5 in the errata, not allowing for an attack on a succesful trip. Also, if you take the whole Weapon Specialization-tree, you might as well take Weapon Supremacy.


+40 Power Attack = putting your 20 BAB into it with a two-handed weapon.

Da King
2008-04-19, 07:12 PM
+40? I was never aware of that rule till now, but that's awesome. Is putting Shock Trooper back into by feats selection worth it? What two feats should I drop so I can get it?

Eldariel
2008-04-19, 08:14 PM
It's right there on Power Attack Feat Description. If you hit with a Two-Handed Weapon, the PA damage is twice the invested amount.

Talic
2008-04-19, 10:22 PM
Shock trooper lets you drop AC instead of attack bonus on Power Attack. Yes, it's worth it, as it allows you to essentially get +40 damage per hit with NO loss of accuracy.

Talic
2008-04-19, 10:24 PM
Drop out Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target, for Shock trooper and leap attack (changes 1 for 2 power attack to 1 for 4).

Either that, or if you want to keep the power attack negaters, go with dropping the Weapon Focuses.

If you go elusive target, keep ring of blinking, and add in +1 Armor of heavy fortification.

Now you negate Power Attack, Precision Damage, and Crits.

TempusCCK
2008-04-20, 02:59 AM
I heavily recommend dropping the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization stuff, it's not really a prerequisite for anything and you can get more out of something else.

Knock down isn't in a book, I think it was released in a Dragon or online or something, I'm not quite sure. I don't remember what the deuce that name of the feat is that lets you make a 5 foot step instead of attack when an enemy makes an AoO but it works real well with lock-down builds.

Talic
2008-04-20, 03:37 AM
I heavily recommend dropping the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization stuff, it's not really a prerequisite for anything and you can get more out of something else.

Knock down isn't in a book, I think it was released in a Dragon or online or something, I'm not quite sure. I don't remember what the deuce that name of the feat is that lets you make a 5 foot step instead of attack when an enemy makes an AoO but it works real well with lock-down builds.

Evasive Reflexes, ToB. 5 foot step instead of an AoO. Limited usefulness, with builds that rely on movement for the AoO. If an enemy moves out of 1 threatened square, you get 1 AoO. If they move out of 3, you get... 1 AoO. Plus, tumble defeats it rather easy, and at relatively low ranks.

Grynning
2008-04-20, 07:13 AM
Knock-down is from 3.0 Sword and Fist, IIRC, and was not reprinted in 3.5, may not be allowed.

On Weapon Spec, etc. if you're going to have 20 levels of fighter you might as well, more damage and hit will help in this kind of fight where there's not going to be as many buffs or any backup available. Weapon Supremacy from PHBII is definitely worth getting.

Da King
2008-04-20, 09:01 AM
Which book is leap attack from? I'm guessing it's from one of the completes that I don't have on me now. (I only Have Scoundrel and Warrior here, Dwight Has Arcane, Divine and Adventurer) 1 for 4 power atttack, does that mean I can take a -20 penalty to AC with shock trooper and get a +80 to damage? The only problem with the power attack Idea is that if Samurai Mcdualwield has Elusive target, It's worthless. Oh well, That's what I have multiple builds for.

Edit: Okay, Leap Attack is in Complete Adventurer.

Talic
2008-04-20, 09:22 AM
Knock-down is from 3.0 Sword and Fist, IIRC, and was not reprinted in 3.5, may not be allowed.

On Weapon Spec, etc. if you're going to have 20 levels of fighter you might as well, more damage and hit will help in this kind of fight where there's not going to be as many buffs or any backup available. Weapon Supremacy from PHBII is definitely worth getting.

Nah, if we open splatbooks up, there are so many good feats that average feats such as this get pushed out.

Travel Devotion

Combat Reflexes
Robilar's Gambit

Power attack
Improved Sunder
Combat Brute
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Leap Attack

Dodge
Combat Expertise
Karmic Strike
Mobility
Elusive Target
Melee Evasion

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Pounce

That's a list of 18 right there that either provide an excellent ability, or build to one.

Consider all of these on a 2 weapon fighter, with armor spikes, as listed above. First, it's your 18 feats; however, the following are all true:


You can move 30 feet a round as a swift action.
Any time your opponent hits you, they provoke an AoO.
Any time your opponent attacks you, they provoke an AoO.
If you sunder your opponent's weapon, you can cleave.
If you charge, you can take power attack penalty to AC.
If you charge, you can leap attack for +100% power attack damage.
The round after you charge, you get x2 power attack damage.

When you charge, you can attack with both the Greatsword and the Armor Spikes.
When you full attack, you get 6 attacks, base.
Opponents do not get power attack bonuses against you.
When Fighting Defensively, you can use a D20 + Highest BAB, and use that as your AC and touch AC against 1 attack per round.


Note, that's not all the things you can do here... It's just a highlight reel.

I'd have a third weapon, as well. Gauntlet +1, wounding, to go along with the greatsword and armor spikes I listed previously:
(+1, Frost, Flaming, Shock, Corrosive, Vicious, Merciful, Wounding Greatsword)
(+1, Frost, Flaming, Shock, Corrosive, Vicious, Merciful, Wounding Armor Spikes)

Now, you have a combo for out of grapple, and a slightly less effective combat in grapple.
Take Gloves of Dex +6, and you have at least 4 AoO's per round, which will be taken within the first 4 attacks your opponent makes (first 2, if he hits).

It will take no more than 4 hits, on average to kill anyone with D10 HP and less than a +13 con modifier.

With a belt of battle and boots of haste, you can get up to 7 attacks on a full attack, and you can get 9 attacks on a charge, once per day. In addition, you can get 7 attacks in a grapple. 3 of these will be at +30 or higher to hit. (5 on the charge).

Downside to the build: Your average AC will be 0. Maybe lower. Upside: That means your opponent will provoke AoO's like mad.

(All feats pulled from: Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, SRD, Player's Handbook 2, Complete Champion)

playswithfire
2008-04-20, 10:21 AM
I realize this isn't the build people are working on, but new ideas also still seem to be getting proposed and this was something that occurred to me, reading through this thread. It involves the Martial Stance feat but not for Thicket of Blades; Press the Advantage this them. I'm sort of thinking of it as the Bull-fighter Build.

1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency(chain)
F1 Combat Reflexes
F2 Dodge
3 Evasive Reflexes
F4 Mobility
6 Elusive Target
F6 Martial Study(something White Raven)
F8 open
9 open
F10 open
12 open
F12 Robilar's Gambit
F14 Martial Study(something White Raven)
15 open
F16 open
18 open
F18 Martial Stance(Press the Advantage)
F20 open

fun things to add: Improved Trip, Aberrant Blood/Reach, probably others

Leaving it with just the feats listed:
He never gets any benefit from power attack (Elusive Target)
With 5 ft reach and from 10 feet away or more
he can't charge you because he'll move out of a threatened square, and you'll use Evasive Reflexes and your Press the Advantage stance to take 2 5-ft steps and get out of his range
he can tumble up to you and take his one attack which will either miss or hit you and provoke an AoO which you can use to either hit him or to take 2 more 5-ft steps away. Either way, on your turn you get to full attack and end the turn at least 10 feet away from him, making this a repeatable scenario.

With 10 ft reach and from 10 feet away or more
he'll charge or move to up to 10 ft away from you, take his one attack which will either miss or hit you and provoke an AoO which you can use to either hit him or to take 2 more 5-ft steps away. Your turn to double 5-ft step to 10-ft range, full attack and wait for his turn, where this scenario more or less repeats itself.

If he has better reach than that, it's more complicated

Thrawn183
2008-04-20, 11:37 AM
I'm probably going to invoke the wrath of some lovecraftian creature for bringing this up, but here goes.

A single action only provokes a single attack of opportunity. It is difficult for me to immagine a need for both Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike in the same build.

*runs away to hide* :smalleek:

graymachine
2008-04-20, 02:13 PM
I like the feat selection, so lets move on to gear. Wow, dust of sneezing and choking is incredibly evil. I might get it, along with a few tanglefoot bags. Instead of potions of enlarge person, how about potions of giant size? It's enlarge person, but to colossal size. Also, Adamantine weapons are a must for sundering. Poisons probably are not worth it because of the high fighter fortitude save. Belt of battle is definetly in, maybe even 3 or 4. Pshycoactive skins look good, especially skin of Ectoplasmic armor. +8 AC for only 6000gp, although there is a -6 armor check penalty.

I would point out that Colossal Spider Venom is something like DC 54 fort save for 2d6 CON/2d6 CON and doesn't cost that much for a 20th level WBL. I think it's in the BoVD.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 02:42 PM
I'm probably going to invoke the wrath of some lovecraftian creature for bringing this up, but here goes.

A single action only provokes a single attack of opportunity. It is difficult for me to immagine a need for both Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike in the same build.

*runs away to hide* :smalleek:
Benefit: At the start of your action, you can adopt a fighting stance that exposes you to harm but allows you to take advantage of your opponents' exposed defenses as they reach in to attack you. Anyone who strikes at you gains a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against you. In return, they provoke attacks of opportunity from you each time they swing. Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack.
Benefit: You can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent that hits you in melee. On your action, you choose to take a -4 penalty to your Armor Class in exchange for the ability to make an attack of opportunity against any creature that makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against you. The opponent that hits you must be in your threatened area, and this feat does not grant you more attacks of opportunity than you are normally allowed in a round. You specify on your turn that you are activating this feat, and the change to your Armor Class and your ability to make these special attacks of opportunity last until your next turn.It is debatable. Also, humorous to imagine.

Thrawn183
2008-04-20, 02:55 PM
It is debatable. I just thought it should be brought up. Allows for DM adjudication before he gets accused of trying to be a munchkin.

Personally, I don't care which side the DM comes down on the issue. I just don't want to see the player get accused of trying to pull a quick one when I don't think he/she is.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 03:32 PM
By RAW it's legit. Robilar's Gambit triggers off a melee attack while Karmic Strike triggers of a hitting melee attack. It might get rule 0d and I don't think you really need it anyways, but it's a good option. I personally like the idea of adding the Dragonborn with Wings and taking Dungeon Crusher to be able to deal a ton of damage in spite of Elusive Target.

Talic
2008-04-20, 07:37 PM
This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity).

You get 1 attack per opportunity, not per action.

Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike give you different opportunities (it is quite possible to trigger the first without triggering the second).

Because they are worded differently, there's a lot of wiggle room to argue for Mass AoO's of doom.

Duke of URL
2008-04-21, 07:39 AM
I'm probably going to invoke the wrath of some lovecraftian creature for bringing this up, but here goes.

A single action only provokes a single attack of opportunity. It is difficult for me to immagine a need for both Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike in the same build.

*runs away to hide* :smalleek:

I excluded Robilar's Gambit from my suggestions for two reasons -- 1) you probably don't have a high enough DEX to take advantage of all of the potential AoOs you're getting anyway, and 2) why give him a +4 to damage with his high number of attacks?

Da King
2008-04-22, 02:39 PM
More information on what Samurai Mcdualwield is planning: I have almost completely figured out what feats He is taking. I know that he will have the following:
Karmic Strike
All TWF feats, including TW defense and TW pounce.
A feat that lets him get AoO on chargin foes (CW I think)
Dodge,Mobility, Spring Attack, Rapid Blitz, and Bounding Assault
Raptor School
Improved Disarm
Combat Reflexes
Crescent Moon Fighting Stlye (free Disarm against foe hit with both sword and dagger)
Combat Expertise
Exoctic Weapon Prof. :Bastard Sword- I can guarantee this one, even though he didn't say so.

So that's what I know fo sure, from the look of it he Has wasted a massive amount of feats on TWF AND the rapid blitz feats. I told him that making more than one attack is a full round action, so TWF won't work with the rapid blitz stuff. Here are other feats he might take/that I don't know he has:
some WF/WS feats, maybe 2 or 3 but not enough for the whole tree or the extended one from PHB2
Elusive Target
Monkey Grip
Oversized TWF

So, apparently, his basic strategy is to get as many AoO as possible. He's not using a spiked chain for some reason though. He said "My specialty is counterattacks" and that "I'll counter everything you do". Basically, He's trying to be a lockdown fighter, but doing it wrong.

So how do I know all this? I asked him. He's pretty willing to tell me what He's doing, but I think he's telling the truth.

Talic
2008-04-22, 03:45 PM
Then this:

Fighter 20

Str 16 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8

Silverbrow Human (RoD)

1) Dragon Tail
1R) Prehensile Tail (Serpent Kingdoms)
1F) EWP: Kusari Gama (DMG)
2F) Wpn Finesse
3) Willing Deformity
4) Multiweapon Fighting
6) Deformity: Tall
6F) Combat Reflexes
8) Improved Multiweapon Fighting
9) Aberrant Blood
12) Inhuman Reach
12F) Greater Multiweapon Fighting

Feats 10, 14, 15, 16, 18, 18, and 20 open.

Basic premise: 30 ft reach. 3 Light reach weapons. 13 attacks per round. Get a belt of battle.

Make your 3 weapons as follows: +3 Wounding

Boost your Dex as much as possible. Boost attack bonuses as much as possible. Use Boots of haste.

Chew him apart from 30 feet away. If he tries to close? Well I'm sure you've got enough feats for a good trip build (stand still won't be doing enough damage to reliably stop him)

You don't need a lot of damage. Grind the Con to 0. Shouldn't take more than 10-15 hits, which is easily done. In addition, he'll prob die of damage +con loss before then. Enlarge Person pot would make it even better tho.

Nohwl
2008-04-22, 04:26 PM
are there any melee weapons with more reach than a spiked chain?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-22, 04:53 PM
are there any melee weapons with more reach than a spiked chain?None that also threaten close up. The Kusari Gama is nice, though. Superior to the Spiked Chain.

Talic
2008-04-22, 09:23 PM
well, less bonus than a spiked chain on opposed checks....

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-22, 09:31 PM
well, less bonus than a spiked chain on opposed checks....
A Kusari-Gama is an exotic weapon that has reach. In addition, unlike other weapons that have reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. It can be used in all respects like a Spiked Chain for trip attacks, disarming foes, and using the wielder's Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier for attacks. I read that as it having the same mod, with the bonus of not being recognized as quite so cheesy. :smallamused:

Nohwl
2008-04-22, 10:05 PM
after a quick look on wikipedia to find out what it is, why isnt that one used? what makes a spiked chain better?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-22, 10:09 PM
Nothing. They are exactly identical, except one is in the PHB and one is in the DMG. Well, that and the fact that I was able to describe my unarmored Swordsage//Paladin as walking around with a chain covered in spikes wrapped around his body. That was pretty nice.

Talic
2008-04-22, 10:20 PM
Nah, for some things where weapon size counts, the spiked chain is still 2 handed, and the Kusari-gama is still a light weapon. Other than that, it roxxors.

Nohwl
2008-04-22, 10:40 PM
so if you really wanted to, could you use two Kusari Gamas at once?

ladditude
2008-04-23, 12:01 AM
Just be a better lock down fighter than him.

Feats:
Deformity Tall
Two Martial Feats for Thicket of Blades
Combat Reflexes
Standstill
Exotic Weapon Proficiency Spiked Chain
Robilar's Gambit
Karmic Strike
etc...

Then keep him at 20ft and laugh as he can't touch you.

BTW, Thicket of Blades says that any movement including 5ft steps your opponent takes provokes an AoO, and they can't withdraw. Add a potion of enlarge for more win.

herrhauptmann
2008-04-23, 01:20 AM
Drop out Dodge, Mobility, and Elusive Target, for Shock trooper and leap attack (changes 1 for 2 power attack to 1 for 4).
Either that, or if you want to keep the power attack negaters, go with dropping the Weapon Focuses.
If you go elusive target, keep ring of blinking, and add in +1 Armor of heavy fortification.
Now you negate Power Attack, Precision Damage, and Crits.

Pretty sure that the Shock trooper lets you 1)penalize AC to raise damage 2)Lets you trip after a bullrush 3)Lets you bullrush and choose where to send enemy. Nothing about a x3 or x4 modifier to your PA damage.
Leap attack lets you take x3 PA damage. And combat brute, in addition to sundering cleave, lets you do another x3 PA in the round after your charge (momentum swing).
So say you trip your enemy, tangle foot him, back up. (less than optimal tactic, but for the sake of arguement).
Next round you charge for full PA of 20, with leap attack you get +60 damage.
Final round, you PA for 20 with your full attack. That's +60 damage to each attack that hits this round.

I personally vote that you include a sunder on that, so even if you don't kill him at the end of this sequence, with sundering cleave (combat brute) you'll have taken away his weapons.
For weapons, have you tried seeing if your DM will let you take the shatterspike from the DMG, and just putting the same enchantments on a different weapon? I personally feel that something like that is perfectly plausible, if you're paying to have say a '9 lives stealer' made, why couldn't you have it made into a bastard sword or short sword if such is your chosen weapon?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-23, 01:34 AM
Pretty sure that the Shock trooper lets you 1)penalize AC to raise damage 2)Lets you trip after a bullrush 3)Lets you bullrush and choose where to send enemy. Nothing about a x3 or x4 modifier to your PA damage.
Leap attack lets you take x3 PA damage. And combat brute, in addition to sundering cleave, lets you do another x3 PA in the round after your charge (momentum swing).
So say you trip your enemy, tangle foot him, back up. (less than optimal tactic, but for the sake of arguement).
Next round you charge for full PA of 20, with leap attack you get +60 damage.
Final round, you PA for 20 with your full attack. That's +60 damage to each attack that hits this round.

I personally vote that you include a sunder on that, so even if you don't kill him at the end of this sequence, with sundering cleave (combat brute) you'll have taken away his weapons.
For weapons, have you tried seeing if your DM will let you take the shatterspike from the DMG, and just putting the same enchantments on a different weapon? I personally feel that something like that is perfectly plausible, if you're paying to have say a '9 lives stealer' made, why couldn't you have it made into a bastard sword or short sword if such is your chosen weapon?

Read the Leap Attack Errata. A Leap Attacker with a THW Power attacks for 4 damage per point of BAB (or AC) without any other modifiers. That's 80 damage of Power attack right there.

TempusCCK
2008-04-23, 12:46 PM
Reach is your friend, he can't get any attacks on you with his style, including the AoO from Hold the Line or Karmic strike if he has to move to make the attack (I'm pretty sure the rules support this, if not, logic does) if you've got 10 feet between you and him, the best he can do is try to sunder.

Draz74
2008-04-23, 02:43 PM
Probably not the best idea, but I think it would be amusing to see if you could beat him by picking mostly feats from Tome of Battle. If only you could take Martial Study more than 3 times. :smallsigh: Still ...

Combat Reflexes/Evasive Reflexes/Robilar's Gambit to make you mobile and give you tons of AoO's.

Improved Unarmed Strike/Superior Unarmed Strike/Snap Kick.

Martial Study (foehammer), Martial Stance (thicket of blades), Defensive Sweep for battlefield control.

Martial Study (wall of blades), Martial Study (disarming strike), Martial Stance (dancing blade form), Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior.

And you can still fit in Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown, and two more feats. Maybe Power Attack and Improved Sunder.

I think this would be a lot of fun. Stormguard Warrior with AoO generation feats is very powerful, and boosting your damage with one-TWO combos of Snap Kicks is fun too. Heh, if you're in Dancing Blade Form, you can even use unarmed strikes as reach attacks. Wheee!

Da King
2008-04-23, 02:58 PM
Just wondering, how is the x2 damage from the overpowering attack Fighter class feature from PHB2 applied? Does it multiply damage rolled+strength modifiers, or does it also include PA damage. I think it doesn't multiply the PA damage (and I have Shock Trooper+Leap Attack for that anyway) but can anyone help me out here? Also, Leap attack with a THW does indeed make it deal 4 times the damage per attack bonus penalty, so -20 penalty is a +80 to damage.

Da King
2008-04-24, 05:29 PM
Update: Apparently Samurai Mcdual wield wants to get mithral STUDDED LEATHER armor, arguing that it is in fact possible to make it out of mithral just because of the studs. Other than this being incredibly stupid (Ruling please Dwight? Are you going to allow this?) it indicates he is going to maximize his dexterity bonus as much as possible, meaning that it would be a very good idea to try to get some attacks against his flat-footed AC if possible.

Edit: A ring of invisibilty should work nicely.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-24, 09:19 PM
As far as I know, that is legal. Stupid, but legal.

Duke of URL
2008-04-25, 07:43 AM
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a scythe cannot be.)

As a DM, I'd rule that mithral studded leather offers no benefit beyond standard studded; at best, I'd halve the weight difference between studded and regular leather.

herrhauptmann
2008-04-25, 09:01 PM
Read the Leap Attack Errata. A Leap Attacker with a THW Power attacks for 4 damage per point of BAB (or AC) without any other modifiers. That's 80 damage of Power attack right there.

Errata? Damn, didn't know. Oh well, means more WIN for me.

Talic
2008-04-25, 10:14 PM
Answers:

1) Yes, you can use 2 kusari-gamas. They're light weapons.

2) For objects not composed primarily of the material you add (Mithril, darkwood, etc) are not meaningfully affected.


Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a scythe cannot be.)