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Another_Poet
2008-04-15, 01:35 PM
Hello everyone. Not a lot of you know me since I mainly visit only the PbP section of GiantITP. I used to post a lot at the wizards/gleemax D&D forums but the place is kind of emptying out in the lull before 4e. So I thought I would bring my thoughts and ideas out here, in the hopes of getting some feedback from fellow gamers.

I currently DM two PbP compaigns (as well as 1 real-world one) and I play in four separate PbP campaigns (and another real-world one). I can manage so many different games at once because people don't always post often and if needed I can be 24 hours late to any of my PbP games without anyone caring much. The flexibility is cool.

However, some of those same things are what drive me crazy about PbP - I don't want to wait around for days at a time to see what will happen next when the story heats up, and I don't like a single combat dragging on for 3 weeks of real world time. Plus, at certain crucial times (character creation, key plot points, BBEG battles, etc.) a PbP game will suddenly pick up, with lots of posts, PM's and char sheet updates all at once. Frankly, I don't like the up-and-down. I would much rather have a single PbP game that runs at a smooth, quick pace than a bunch of PbPs with varying levels of posting.

So is this a gripe against my players or DMs? No, not at all. Actually it's the game itself I'm wondering about. D&D, like most tabletops, is designed to be played for hours-long in-person sessions. The rules and roleplaying can translate to minute-long internet posts, but they don't always translate well. It's like those old King's Quest computer games: you can put the game on a series of floppy disks but you'll have to change discs and wait for 10 minutes every time you walk from one screen to the next.

So I'm starting to brainstorm about game mechanics. Ultimately I'd love to design or help design an entire gaming system that is meant for PbP games (and Pb email and Pb chat). I don't mean a world, setting, or adventure; I mean an entire set of mechanics.

If there is interest in this - if others have the same gripes and if no one has already made a PbP system - then I'd eventually like to start a more design-oriented thread where the community can give input and help shape a real system. For now, I mostly just have a string of questions that I would love feedback on. So, if you have an opinion (and who doesn't?) then jump on in!

Starting questions:

1) What are the hardest parts, for you, of running a RPing game (D20 or otherwise) over a message forum, email, or chatroom?

2) Has anyone ever designed an entire Rping system (rules, abilities, etc.) specifically with PbP play in mind? Or, similarly, are there any PNP systems that you think adapt to PBP really easily?

3) (For the DMs out there): do you find the player selection process as ridiculous as I do? Because, although it's always gone very professionally for me and I've never caused any hurt feelings as far as I know, it does seem a little degrading, or at least a time waste. "Hey, how about 30 people take the time and effort to make fully statted out characters and get excited about them, so I can choose the five I like best." Plus it takes weeks (usually) from when you first hear about a cool campaign till when you can actually start playing. How would you shorten the process? Do you think it can be shortened? Is there a way to make it less of a lottery?

4) How do you like PbP combats run, and what sorts of rules (which gaming system, and with what house rules) make combat faster and more enjoyable for you in a PbP game?

5) Why do you think PbP games are more likely to "peter out" our end early before the campaign is concluded? How do you try to avoid this in your games?

Okay, whew, I think that's enough to get discussion started. Feel free to branch out and bring up other issues - I really want to get a feel for what problems (and solutions) other people encounter when doing a game over the internet. Any input is welcome, just keep it friendly!

peace,
ap

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 01:50 PM
Whatever system you settle on should have no battlemaps (too hard to do online) and encourage posting several turns worth of information at once during combat. When you can't make a move without knowing every person's action before yours, it really slows down posting.

Also, I've always wondered why DMs don't just do it on a first-come, first-served basis for picking players. I have a group IRL that works like that. It's an open world with about 10 DMs and ~40 players. Each week between 20 and 30 people show up, and 3 or 4 DMs write a quest hook on the board. People sign up for the games, and the DM runs the game with that. It works surprisingly well, and your character feels more like a mercenary called in to do a job without any real clue what's happening in the world beyond his perspective. Of course, the system has far fewer balance issues than D&D, and I have adventured with a character who is roughly equivalent to a second leveler in a group with an epic fighter, and we were both effective, and both failed the same save to render us ineffective at one point, so pick-up games are easier on the DM.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-15, 01:56 PM
Speaking of which, I found the ultimate speedup for D&D.

It's simple, really. Just screw the 3.5 initiative system. Instead, use the second edition system (First come, first served, enemy akes turn, you take turn, repeat ad infinitum or until a side dies). Works like a charm.

Solo
2008-04-15, 01:57 PM
Speaking of which, I found the ultimate speedup for D&D.

It's simple, really. Just screw the 3.5 initiative system. Instead, use the second edition system (First come, first served, enemy akes turn, you take turn, repeat ad infinitum or until a side dies). Works like a charm.

So get to work!

AmberVael
2008-04-15, 01:58 PM
1) What are the hardest parts, for you, of running a RPing game (D20 or otherwise) over a message forum, email, or chatroom?
Surrounding awareness- mostly in combat.
DMs have to resort to creating little maps in paint or the like, and while that CAN work, it's a lot more clunky, time consuming, and vague in use than being right around a table together.
The solution would be to have a DM with a lot of pre-generated graphics designed for use on a grid map. With the use of a program like Inkscape, this type of map would take a while to initially create, but after you've made all the pieces you can use them game after game.
The other problem is that DMs never set a time to meet, so things drag out mercilessly. Even across these other methods, you should have dedicated time to meet and reliably play the game- it just makes things progress so much faster.


2) Has anyone ever designed an entire Rping system (rules, abilities, etc.) specifically with PbP play in mind? Or, similarly, are there any PNP systems that you think adapt to PBP really easily?
Freeform seems to be the most common and easy to use roleplaying method. I wrote up a huge list of rules and how to do well in freeform for the Town subforum here- a lot of it was customized, but you can see how we've developed loose rules and etiquette to base our gaming off of.
It should be noted that Freeform games, interestingly, bypass the problem that I noted above, not needing maps at all due to lack of roll-play mechanics.


3) (For the DMs out there): do you find the player selection process as ridiculous as I do? Because, although it's always gone very professionally for me and I've never caused any hurt feelings as far as I know, it does seem a little degrading, or at least a time waste. "Hey, how about 30 people take the time and effort to make fully statted out characters and get excited about them, so I can choose the five I like best." Plus it takes weeks (usually) from when you first hear about a cool campaign till when you can actually start playing. How would you shorten the process? Do you think it can be shortened? Is there a way to make it less of a lottery?
No. I don't find it ridiculous at all. Even among my friends I know there are people that would be enthusiastic and willing to play that I would never, never let into one of my games. Some people work better than others- and the time it takes to sort them out really depends on the DM. It's a wise idea, and the time it takes to get in or not is simply the price you have to pay for the DMs game having a better chance of running well and smoothly.


4) How do you like PbP combats run, and what sorts of rules (which gaming system, and with what house rules) make combat faster and more enjoyable for you in a PbP game?
Well you definitely don't post in initiative order. If you try that, things take forever...
The DM and players will have to coordinate together to make it work, but it is easier to manage than you might think.
Otherwise... *shrug*


5) Why do you think PbP games are more likely to "peter out" our end early before the campaign is concluded? How do you try to avoid this in your games?
I don't think people are as driven to act in a PbP game- you need a DM willing to push and nudge people into doing things in PbP, while in a real life game people act because that is the express purpose for them being there. People will initially be enthusiastic over a PbP game, but if you let that die, or don't give them good incentive to post and act, they'll do things less and less frequently until it all stops.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-15, 02:32 PM
Whatever system you settle on should have no battlemaps (too hard to do online)

Are you kidding? There's no end of software that provide a dedicated RP chat with a shared battlemap.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-15, 02:35 PM
How many use squares and can acknowlege frickin' HEIGHT? Seriously. If you know of one, tell me, because I've been looking for one forever. Would be the perfect way to start my first 4th Ed. campaign.

Trouvere
2008-04-15, 02:43 PM
Well you definitely don't post in initiative order. If you try that, things take forever...
The DM and players will have to coordinate together to make it work, but it is easier to manage than you might think.
Otherwise... *shrug*I'm in two minds about this. In my own PbPs, it's been pretty much a wash. About half the time posting out of initiative order has indeed sped things up. In the other half, it's caused horrible mix-ups: previously posted actions low in initiative order have become irrelevant or impossible to perform by the time they come around, requiring a replacement action posted in order anyway; and there's a tendency/temptation for the slower posters to tailor their actions to avoid invalidating previously posted ones, particularly when they can see they wioll haven be (thanks, Dr Dan Streetmentioner) successful.

AmberVael
2008-04-15, 02:46 PM
@ Azerian: I don't know, how easy is it to represent height when you're playing on a real board with normal miniatures?
Not very easy. If a wizard casts fly, I'm certainly not holding my miniature precisely 6 inches in the air over the battle mat I typically use while everyone else gets to the sodas. :smalltongue:
Stacking figures on top of dice is similarly a bad idea.
The height of monsters and obstacles and the like really don't come into play across a map anyways- it's all through description and mechanics which can easily be written up for online play.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-15, 02:53 PM
Actually, I had a great general idea for a PbP mechanic game, but never fleshed it out... the general idea was that the more poetically they posted, the better the outcome.

What?? English minor here, I'm bound to want to do something like this! :smallwink:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-15, 03:06 PM
@ Azerian: I don't know, how easy is it to represent height when you're playing on a real board with normal miniatures?
Not very easy. If a wizard casts fly, I'm certainly not holding my miniature precisely 6 inches in the air over the battle mat I typically use while everyone else gets to the sodas. :smalltongue:
Stacking figures on top of dice is similarly a bad idea.
The height of monsters and obstacles and the like really don't come into play across a map anyways- it's all through description and mechanics which can easily be written up for online play.

Easy. Get a few mm thick coins or the like and stack 'em under the miniature. Each of those represents one square. Ze done.

Duke of URL
2008-04-15, 03:19 PM
3) (For the DMs out there): do you find the player selection process as ridiculous as I do? Because, although it's always gone very professionally for me and I've never caused any hurt feelings as far as I know, it does seem a little degrading, or at least a time waste. "Hey, how about 30 people take the time and effort to make fully statted out characters and get excited about them, so I can choose the five I like best." Plus it takes weeks (usually) from when you first hear about a cool campaign till when you can actually start playing. How would you shorten the process? Do you think it can be shortened? Is there a way to make it less of a lottery?]

The problem with first-come, first-served is that it rewards those who are on the forums ALL DAY LONG, and those who only check in from time to time get shafted.

I'd suggest telling people to NOT do full sheets, but to simply post character concepts (general build, personality, bullet-point backgrounds) -- this reduces the amount of work to get noticed, and gets rid a lot of the "well I wasted my time" problem, since basic concepts can be re-used in other games more easily than fully-statted characters can.


4) How do you like PbP combats run, and what sorts of rules (which gaming system, and with what house rules) make combat faster and more enjoyable for you in a PbP game?

Here, the players are going to have to trust you a little, and you're going to have to accommodate them. If the posting frequency is so low as to make combat a drawn-out chore, have the players post general actions/strategies and let you resolve them as you think most reasonable (within the boundaries of their characters) unless/until the situation significantly changes.

E.g., a rogue finding out that the enemy is immune to sneak attacks might try a different approach, so they would have to come up with a new set of instructions.

If the players post frequently enough, then a simple battle-map driven system works just fine.


5) Why do you think PbP games are more likely to "peter out" our end early before the campaign is concluded? How do you try to avoid this in your games?

Players losing interest -- keeping things moving is probably the only remedy. Streamlining combat helps, as does basically NPCing inactive players (set a policy, stick to it).

If I ever participate in a game that doesn't suffer a death from apathy, I'll let you know how it managed it. :smallbiggrin:

AmberVael
2008-04-15, 06:02 PM
Easy. Get a few mm thick coins or the like and stack 'em under the miniature. Each of those represents one square. Ze done.

That sort of thing isn't hard to replicate online though. Just make a notation on the map you use saying "X amount of feet up." It works just fine, and you can't accidentally topple it over online.

Tura
2008-04-15, 07:48 PM
3) (For the DMs out there): do you find the player selection process as ridiculous as I do? Because, although it's always gone very professionally for me and I've never caused any hurt feelings as far as I know, it does seem a little degrading, or at least a time waste. "Hey, how about 30 people take the time and effort to make fully statted out characters and get excited about them, so I can choose the five I like best." Plus it takes weeks (usually) from when you first hear about a cool campaign till when you can actually start playing. How would you shorten the process? Do you think it can be shortened? Is there a way to make it less of a lottery?
There are two methods. If it's first-come first-serve, it's neither "degrading" nor time-consuming, but it is a lottery, for DM and players alike (The players "win" if they simply happen to be online when the DM starts recruiting. And the DM wonders "Are those four guys that posted first decent players? Are they gonna ruin the game? Will they do anything that annoys me? Will we be able to have fun?" )
First-come first-serve has lead to some interesting and fun games, but it has many drawbacks and personally I avoid it like the plague. Its only advantage is speed. If you want to get started ASAP, go ahead.

The other method is selection based on merit, as the DM seems fit - it may be a solid background, or quality writing (to be judged by the background), or a strong build, or a combination of the above. This is by definition NOT a lottery, and I honestly don't understand why you find it "degrading". In your kitchen, you can invite the people you trust, but this is the internet. You don't know the people who apply, so you need some sort of information to determine if they are decent players and if they fit your game. I see no reason for anyone to be insulted if he doesn't get selected in the end, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about such a thing.

If you're worried about the time-consuming process, you can give a reasonable deadline. Your troubles will be over quickly, and no one will get carried away and work on a sheet forever only to get rejected. Requesting only a character concept instead of a full character sheet can also speed up things, and you can leave mechanics and/or detailed background for later.


4) How do you like PbP combats run, and what sorts of rules (which gaming system, and with what house rules) make combat faster and more enjoyable for you in a PbP game?
In D&D, we really to do something drastic about initiative. Ignore it after the first round, ignore it completely (hardcore :smalltongue: ), use group initiative, something. It depends on how many players you have, how often they post, if they post at a standard time of the day... I don't think there's a golden rule here. (But there's always trial and error.)

We're using group initiative in a game right now: Two rolls - us and the bad guys. Bad guys act at the same time (or when dramatically appropriate), and the player who posts first acts first. It has gone fine so far. [Then again, if later on we lose initiative against a big dragon with a deadly breath weapon, I may revise my previous statement.]

What I can certainly advise against, is declaring actions for more than one round. Even if it occasionally speeds things up, and even if you make the most reasonable {if->then->else} assumptions, it will inevitably lead to mayhem. Not worth it.

To avoid killing the game, I think it's a good idea to declare from the beginning that if a player misses his turn, you'll NPC him - at the best of your ability and keeping him in character as much as possible. This rule can be tweaked according to circumstances. There's no reason to wait for the tank to say "I hit it again", so in this case it's a good thing. But if the caster is about to make a win-or-lose decision, mmmmaybe you should wait a bit.

Unfortunately, combat is the main disadvantage in PbP, and there's not much you can do mechanically. Tweak it a bit, make it last a week instead of two. Therefore, it's important to make every single combat interesting. Killing nameless goblins for half a session in tabletop can be fun. Killing nameless goblins for a month in PbP, not so much.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-15, 08:37 PM
As far as the system goes, I've come up with a freeform system I'd like to try based mostly off of Risus and the TV-Tropes RPG (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75973) on the homebrew forums. The basic idea is that every one has a set number of roles or tropes which imply abilities, but not really a set list, and contain various advantages and disadvantages. For example, a barbarian role would be very good at fighting, strength, and endurance and would include tracking and survival abilities as well as rage. Whereas a swordsman or "fighter" role would have just as good generic fighting but better tactics than the barbarian thus in a battle they would be evenly matched but in a duel the swordsman probably would win.

In short it uses the role/trope system of Risus except that all conflicts are resolved via description and abstract power (up to the DM) but uses the TV-Tropes RPG plot point system for power boosts and HP. I might run a game around here at some point once I get a good setting for it to test it out.

Lochar
2008-04-15, 08:50 PM
If I ever participate in a game that doesn't suffer a death from apathy, I'll let you know how it managed it. :smallbiggrin:

Mine's been running on these forums since the end of October. Wish I could tell you how I'm managing it, beyond having a really great set of players. We're already at about 3800 posts IC. *knocks on wood. multiple times*

Konig
2008-04-15, 09:09 PM
Starting questions:

1) What are the hardest parts, for you, of running a RPing game (D20 or otherwise) over a message forum, email, or chatroom?

Speed & dedication. The lack thereof.

Speed: A play by post game runs a lot slower than a regular game. This reduces motivation & can cause a lot of frustration. I've been in games where it took a week for a round of combat to complete.

Dedication: When you're not meeting face to face, it's very easy for someone to quit without warning, or to just lose interest & reduce their posting rate to a snail's crawl.


2) Has anyone ever designed an entire Rping system (rules, abilities, etc.) specifically with PbP play in mind? Or, similarly, are there any PNP systems that you think adapt to PBP really easily?

Not a RPing system, but I have developed games for message boards, including one that was like Fantasy Risk, with tech trees & 50 unique races. That wound up being a nightmare to run.


3) (For the DMs out there): do you find the player selection process as ridiculous as I do? Because, although it's always gone very professionally for me and I've never caused any hurt feelings as far as I know, it does seem a little degrading, or at least a time waste. "Hey, how about 30 people take the time and effort to make fully statted out characters and get excited about them, so I can choose the five I like best." Plus it takes weeks (usually) from when you first hear about a cool campaign till when you can actually start playing. How would you shorten the process? Do you think it can be shortened? Is there a way to make it less of a lottery?

I just started two campaigns this past weekend, so I sort of know what you're talking about.

One of my games got a lot of hype - over 24 applicants in a week & a half. The other got 16. To give them each a fair shot, I gave regular reviews of their applications so they could work on fixing flaws and have it be less "No, you're not in. Better luck next time."

When applications closed, I went through the list, sorted them & graded them according to the quality of their background, character concept, the player themselves & so on. A few were automatic ins because they were just so excellent, after that, I picked to fill party roles or weighed various applicants against one another.

This means that if someone's really dedicated & interested, they can basically put in the work required to get into the game.

I find a strict schedule & letting people know what to expect means things don't take a week to get off the ground. My recent game ads were: "10 days before I pick applications. Then you have one day to finish your sheet while your characters meet one another. After that, the adventure starts. You can use the first adventure to get a feel for your character & make any changes to make it flow better overall."


4) How do you like PbP combats run, and what sorts of rules (which gaming system, and with what house rules) make combat faster and more enjoyable for you in a PbP game?

I prefer them run straight, initiative order with maps (I do mine with Excel to get the grid, and paint shop pro to add details & use layers to easily move things.). This tends to be a bit slow, and requires dedicated players.

Another option is one a DM of mine is running which is:

"Player's team: add all their initiative bonuses together & roll. Enemy team: do the same. Players post all their actions - order of posts is the order in which actions happen."
A bit messy in some ways, but it's pretty good for play by post games.


5) Why do you think PbP games are more likely to "peter out" our end early before the campaign is concluded? How do you try to avoid this in your games?

Lack of speed. Cumulative effect. Often, you'll run into a situation where one person just can't 'come to the table' for a few days or a week, or someone isn't posting much. When that happens the game slows to a standstill as a result (or stops, in the case of a delayed DM). After that, people get tired of constantly refreshing & seeing nothing happen, so they stop visiting as much. Once the momentum is lost, it's hard for it to pick up again when the person finally returns.

Prometheus
2008-04-15, 10:38 PM
The problem seems to be choosing between two undesirable strategies. The first, post whenever you feel like it and take forever because you all post at different times. The second, plan to all post at a certain time, but come to a standstill when someone doesn't come.

Simple RP, no turns, no dice, works remarkably well on forums, and would be my recommended method of collaborative story telling. I don't do PbP D&D, because I think it is an inferior alternative.

Coming up with a PbP mechanic would have to be something that is mostly independent of time. I can only see three ways of doing that completely:
-completely modular campaign where there is a continual plot and list of characters, but the party can change drastically in between quests without harming the plot whatsoever.
-Many single-player parties in the same world. This would be a hell of a task for the DM, but if he managed to pull it off, than they can all progress through the world simultaneously and intermittently interact with each other, with no real requirement of getting online at the same time for the most part.
-Have a battle system where players detail their actions way ahead of time or using elaborate contingencies. The most appropriate fluff I could imagine would be sentient robots or robot/spaceship programmers/controllers in some sort of sci-fi setting. Obviously, the strategy would be to plan so that you are able to actually make your moves, and make them effectively. It might be an interesting game, but it wouldn't be D&D.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-15, 11:19 PM
"Player's team: add all their initiative bonuses together & roll. Enemy team: do the same. Players post all their actions - order of posts is the order in which actions happen."

That is not a bad idea, but it gives a huge advantage to the larger group. Party vs. Big Bad will all go first in this scenario, and that tends to skew the fight a lot.

Icewalker
2008-04-16, 02:01 AM
I pbp a good bit now, it is awesome.

If you can get people playing on the agreement of daily checks to see if anything is needed, then if nothing happens for 2-3 days it is up to the DM to see what is wrong and PM or post for someone, so there are no massive lulls. Keeps things moving.

As to character selection, I generally just have people give me concepts, and roll stats. No need to write up the full character sheet if they don't want until I've picked people.


@^: Divide by # of people could balance that.

Liliedhe
2008-04-16, 05:11 AM
As a long-time veteran of PbP-games (mostly Shadowrun, but also Earthdawn and others, so I can't give D&D specific advice) and also chatgames, I'd like to give my own 5 cents worth of answers. I've managed to finish several games, too :smallwink:, some after three years of play. Many more ended in limbo, of course. And there are no guarantees at all - one adventure might be concluded in less than half a year, another with the same players might die comparatively soon.


Starting questions:

1) What are the hardest parts, for you, of running a RPing game (D20 or otherwise) over a message forum, email, or chatroom?

For chatgames, that's easily finding a time, when all players can be available. It might drag out for months, not because of complicated developments IP, but because own person is having exams, then another is on holiday and so on. PbP has two crucial risks: people getting afraid the moment an actual danger is showing up - and not posting as a result, because they don't want to doom themselves and the others - and characters not getting on with each other. This can take any form, from secretly sabotaging the others' efforts, to not talking to each other anymore, to outright violence, though this is rather rare. The first problem can be remedied through cajoling by the DM (comforting OOC, giving advice, judging plans unofficially before they are put in action). The second is almost always fatal for the game, because there is only so much the DM can do to keep the game moving. If the players don't want to do anything about it, then they won't. The fact that players might disappear due to real life affairs - moving to another town, getting a new job etc - isn't specific to PbP, although because of the long time such games take the risk might be a bit higher.


2) Has anyone ever designed an entire Rping system (rules, abilities, etc.) specifically with PbP play in mind? Or, similarly, are there any PNP systems that you think adapt to PBP really easily?

No, because I don't think it has anything to do with actual rules.


3) (For the DMs out there): do you find the player selection process as ridiculous as I do? Because, although it's always gone very professionally for me and I've never caused any hurt feelings as far as I know, it does seem a little degrading, or at least a time waste. "Hey, how about 30 people take the time and effort to make fully statted out characters and get excited about them, so I can choose the five I like best." Plus it takes weeks (usually) from when you first hear about a cool campaign till when you can actually start playing. How would you shorten the process? Do you think it can be shortened? Is there a way to make it less of a lottery?

My first advice would be to stick with people you know to be able to see such a game through. Ok, that's unfair to anyone who is new to this... Next advice: Set deadlines. Ask for character concepts first, and then ask only those, whose concepts you liked for developed characters. I understand that character creation in D&D is infinitely more complex than on other RPGs, so I don't really know how much time has to be allowed... In my case - Shadowrun - the selection process rarely takes longer than a few days.


4) How do you like PbP combats run, and what sorts of rules (which gaming system, and with what house rules) make combat faster and more enjoyable for you in a PbP game?

If you can get all people to be online at the same time - use a chat. If not, ask everyone for what they want to do in a round, and then post what comes from it yourself. Especially easy if the DM does all the dice rolling.


5) Why do you think PbP games are more likely to "peter out" our end early before the campaign is concluded? How do you try to avoid this in your games?

It's anonymous, mostly. Nobody can be cross with you at school or wherever, because you dropped the game and left them hanging... The game takes far longer, giving real life a better chance to intervene. Often, it's difficult to become involved and care, when someone only posts every other week. That makes it easier to forget that you should take a look at the thread... And if the DM has to kick you every week, than it's pretty likely he'll stop bothering sooner or later.

My advice to prevent this: Stick with people you know. People, who proved themselves to be reliable. Make adventures where people have to hit the ground running, so they won't have time to be bored or get annoyed with each other. When you are shipwrecked on Dinosaur Island it doesn't matter if you would sit down and have a chat with the Barbarian in a tavern or not. Set deadlines for planning/discussion. Don't allow them to worry themselves to death - they are heroes, they are supposed to do things normal people wouldn't consider. And, most important: Don't take it personal when the game dies. Even with most careful planning, well chosen players and characters, it sometimes just happens. Just start a new game.

:smallbiggrin: My 5 cents. Or more likely, my 17 platinum pieces

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-16, 05:38 AM
Something I've found is important is to reduce the number of posts it takes to accomplish tasks to as small a number as possible. I've heard this referred to as a 'ping' rate before.

Ex. of atrociously bad rate:

DM: Everybody make a spot check
Players: roll spot checks
DM: Ok, you see X, roll initiative
Players: roll initiative
DM: OK, player 1, it is your turn
Player 1: I attack the X
DM: Roll to hit
Player 1:

In think you get the idea.

I think most PbP games operate closer to this:

DM: Narrative/Descriptive Text, DM rolls initiative for PCs and monsters, and posts the order of actions, incuding the monsters actions in spoilers.
Players: Post actions, not necessarily in order, including all dice rolls that are necessary, possibly including an AoO in a spoiler, just in case.
DM: Descriptive text of the previous round, and reposts order of actions, with monster actions in spoilers.

etc.

Greyen
2008-04-16, 06:29 AM
For the character selection bit- I like selecting my players and characters. I know that Bob is a rules lawyer that is going to cause a problem, his guy may be awesome but I do not want him in my game. Or Joe is a good solid player but his sheet is wrong in 27 places can't use that, maybe try to corret it before selection. First come first served can kick you in the pants, especially if you have personality conflicts with those players.

As for the combat thing, the thing I find most appealing as a DM and useful as a player is to Post initiative order (all mobs go first ot last, makes little difference). Then wait for the players to post in whatever order thye post in.

For example
GM- Init Order
Bob 19
Joe 14
Willy 12
Retardo 3
Mobs Last


The the players post (With rolls, etc. in spoilers either IC or OOC)
Willy- I cast Magic Missle at the mob.
Retardo - I hit it a lot.
Bob - I run away like a little girl
Joe - I Stab it in the back

Once all players have posted the Gm wraps up the round with the monster actions and the results of the player's actions
GM- Bob sees the mob and flees. While Joe sneaks up and stabs it. Willy's Magic Missle bounces harmlessly off its magic armor. Retardo cuts it in half with his amazing cheater strength.... Mob#2 steps out and eats Retardos leg off...blah blah blah

This allows everyone to do what they want and post in whatever time lines they have. I allow for players to post options for their characters.
Bob will either whack the Mob or if Joe has already killed it then he will do... Not really readying an action but allowing some flexibilty in the actions dependant on who's doing what.

As for keeping a game going, that is a difficult task for anyone. GM's burn out, players burn out on their character, Joe the central character's player has a computer crash that keeps him offline for 2 weeks. If you want your game to succeed you need to fight for it. Don't be rude or harass people but be professional and polite about it, say "Joe if you cannot post in the next 5 days I will have to drop you from the game. If you read this after 5 days and have had extenuating circumstances then we can work something out."

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-16, 10:19 PM
Whether the mobs go first or last is of extreme significance, unless you are playing with a very sub-par group of adventurers. If the whole party goes first, the mob starts at a huge disadvantage. A lot can happen in a round. I've seen encounters that the party had no business surviving get rolled because the whole party won initiative.

Another_Poet
2008-04-17, 08:59 AM
First off I want to say thanks to the many people who have given their answers. It sounds like there are some common themes to the methods of making PbP go smoothly. Including:

1) Selecting characters based on char concept, rather than having every applicant stat a full character.

2) Not using strict turn-by-turn initiative in fights.

3) Tweaking the sorts of encounters so that they do not last a lot of rounds or have a lot of repetition.

4) Giving the DM the power to "NPC" a character (force him to act) if the player doesn't show up.

5) Different administrative style - either the DM is constantly urging people to post and maintaining interest in the game (OOC solution) or the DM sets up the game to be episiodic and not require the sanme players for very long (IC solution).

Does anyone have further advice or "principles of PbP"? I'd especially be interested in different initiative systems. Having only played D&D and Shadowrun, I haven't seen a lot of different methods and I'd love suggestions.

I'm using these ideas as touchstones as I try my hand at writing a PbP-specific gaming system. Basically I want it to feature point buy, a character-concept-driven char creation system (not stat-driven), simple rules for casting & combat techniques, very fast combat, and a straightforward way for the DM to take over characters if the player isn't there. When I get a rough draft together I will post it here so others can critique, suggest, steal/borrow/use, or even help playtest when we get that far. So please, if you have more ideas, fire away!

AP

Citizen Joe
2008-04-17, 09:31 AM
1. The courtesy of waiting for the results of intiative and then waiting for everyone before you to announce and resolve their action before stating your action is HORRIBLY slow. Since there is about a 24 hour ping time for all those. Thus, just knowing WHEN you can go is at least 48 hours. Then waiting for your turn is two to four days for each person before you. That sort of courtesy needs to be abandoned in PbP play. Just state your desired course of action as soon as you can (and then maybe a secondary action if you think yours may get preempted).
2. Try to arrange for a time period while everyone is available for combats. Like maybe every other saturday will be the combat 'time' where if there will be more than a round of combat, it will take place on that day for rapid resolution reasons.
3. Rather than maps, provide a basic situational description. Then make secret spot checks and tell the individual players if their characters have seen some sort of situational or environmental effect that may benefit them. Also, do a quick rundown of any area effects the character can do and let them know who might be affected. Then the individual players can call out directions to the others to try to make use of the environment/situation.