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Frosty
2008-04-15, 04:05 PM
I may participate in a melee duel soon, to see who has the advantage between Warblade and Fighter. I need help building a Warblade to be able to defeat a Fighter in one on one combat that showcases the melee aspect instead of a "who is better as using your wealth" contest. So, given these conditions, what build and what items would you use?

Straight Fighter 20 vs Warblade 20. Books allowed: PHB, All completes. Tome of Battle, PHB2, Races of < > books.

LA +0. Medium or Small sized only.

Fighter can't take Martial Study or Martial Stance. Can't use UMD. Neither character can have any ability to cast spells or have psionic powers.

No cheesy items like Candles of Invocation or Dust of Coughing. We're trying to showcase melee prowess not item prowess. Magic items must be in the DMG.

The arena changes from battle to battle. So we may run repetitions in a feature-less flat plane covered by a dome 200 feet in diameter, and then switch to a heavily forested setting, then to fighting near the mouth of a volcano, and then more. The builds, once decided, would be used for all the fights.

Situation 1) Wealth is limited to 3000 gold. No magical items allowed except one free Heward's Handy Haversack.

Situation 2) Normal WBL. Try not to get an item that does the fighting for you or makes it so the fight isn't a contest of melee. The point of the contest is not to cheese it out to the extreme with items.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-15, 04:17 PM
Don't know about the warblade, but I know how I'd build the fighter. :smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-04-15, 04:18 PM
That'd be good to, to see what the Fighter might do.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-15, 04:21 PM
There are 3 Fighter builds you may face, not counting archery. Lockdown tripper, possibly using karmic strike, ubercharger, and skirmisher. You need a build that can beat all of those.

tyckspoon
2008-04-15, 04:37 PM
There are 3 Fighter builds you may face, not counting archery. Lockdown tripper, possibly using karmic strike, ubercharger, and skirmisher. You need a build that can beat all of those.

You may well face two or all three of them. A full Fighter 20 has little better to do with his feats than take on other good feat trees.. actually, I seem to recall we already had this basic thread at least once. A Fighter 20 may have the full Ubercharger set, Elusive Target so you can't smack him back with Power Attack, and the counterstrike set allowing him to return four AoO to every one attack.

A Warblade can't match the variety and number of feats of a Fighter, so obviously you need to counter with your maneuvers. The autostun of White Raven Hammer could be very useful, as could the White Raven boost that denies Attacks of Opportunity for three turns. Alternately, with the no-magic-items rules, your to-hit and damage rolls are likely to be pretty low for level 20, but your skill checks can still be good.. max out Concentration and work with Diamond Mind or Jump and use Tiger Claw.

Warblade 20 gets you the dual-stance ability; you'll need two good ones. Maybe Blood In the Water and Stance Of Alacrity with a crit-hound? Focus on readying counters; when your opponent does anything, you respond twice. And grab Mountain Tombstone Strike 'cause, hey, 2d6 Con damage and no maneuver prerequisite.

Riffington
2008-04-15, 04:41 PM
To make it a bit more realistic, you should allow the fighter to take levels of Barbarian, Ranger, etc...

One obvious route for the non-TOB is to outspeed you and outshoot you... and what fighter doesn't "multiclass" even if only to get Rage?

Frosty
2008-04-15, 04:56 PM
This is Melee only, so shooting isn't allowed.

tyckspoon: I fully expect Elusive Target. I will also be taking it myself to prevent Ubercharging from killing me straight out.

Chronos
2008-04-15, 04:56 PM
Situation 1) Wealth is limited to 3000 gold. No magical items allowed except one free Heward's Handy Haversack.Is there a feat or feat tree (or for that matter, stance or maneuver) somewhere that gives DR/magic? Ordinarily, such a feat would be useless, but if neither combatant has magical weapons...

tyckspoon
2008-04-15, 05:23 PM
Oh. Are you allowed to use Martial Study/Stance to pick up maneuvers from outside the Warblade disciplines for this contest? Dual-stancing Press The Advantage and Child of Shadow would be fun; take two 5-foot steps to activate Child of Shadow and still have a full action to attack or initiate a maneuver with.

Let's see.. Durations tick over on the initiative of the creature that caused them, right? So an opponent recovers from a one-turn effect just before you go again? That prevents some interesting Moment of Alacrity options.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 05:25 PM
Oh. Are you allowed to use Martial Study/Stance to pick up maneuvers from outside the Warblade disciplines for this contest?

I was under the impression Warblades can't take Martial Study/Stance?

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 05:31 PM
Fighter can't take Martial Study or Martial Stance. Can't use UMD. Neither character can have any ability to cast spells or have psionic powers.

But Binding, Shadowcasting, Invocations, and Incarnum are just golden, right? :smalltongue:


I was under the impression Warblades can't take Martial Study/Stance?

Anyone and everyone can take either Martial Study or Martial Stance.. So I don't know where you got that impression.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-15, 05:31 PM
That'd be good to, to see what the Fighter might do.
If the object is just to kill a warblade, then an archery build does it right out; all of a warblade's maneuvers, so far as I'm aware, require being within melee reach. If restricted to melee, then a grappling build might actually cause you trouble, depending on whether your maneuvers require the use of a weapon and normal attack rolls. A fighter grappling build with Weapon Supremacy would be scary to a melee combatant, and the fighter has enough feats to pull it off.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 05:33 PM
But Binding, Shadowcasting, Invocations, and Incarnum are just golden, right? :smalltongue:



Anyone and everyone can take either Martial Study or Martial Stance.. So I don't know where you got that impression.

Since the book list does not have any sources that includes Binding, shadowcasting, and Incarnum, the point is moot. I don't see how a Fighter 20 can have Invocations to be honest.

As for martial Study, I made a mistake. I was thinking of a feat that allows you to ready one more maneuver than normal.

tyckspoon
2008-04-15, 05:34 PM
Extra Granted and Extra Readied Maneuver are restricted to Crusaders and Swordsages, respectively. Martial Study and Stance have no prerequisites that would stop a Warblade from taking them to improve his Maneuvers Known; he just can't use a feat to ready any more.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 05:38 PM
18 Base Strength, +5 Book, +6 Str Item, +5 from Levels gives you a DC 31 Save or Die that you can pull off every other round. It also deals your normal damage+20d6 if your opponent succeeds on the save.

Just spam Feral Death Blow until he fails a save, fails the Massive Damage Save, or dies from normal damage.

EDIT: Alternatively, Mountain Tombstone Strike deals 2d6 CON damage every other round.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-15, 05:56 PM
18 Base Strength, +5 Book, +6 Str Item, +5 from Levels gives you a DC 31 Save or Die that you can pull off every other round. It also deals your normal damage+20d6 if your opponent succeeds on the save.

Just spam Feral Death Blow until he fails a save, fails the Massive Damage Save, or dies from normal damage.

EDIT: Alternatively, Mountain Tombstone Strike deals 2d6 CON damage every other round.

Or you can alternate, start out with Mountain Tomestone Strike to drop his con, then follow up with Feral Death Blow (his con and thus his fort save is now lower). Rinse and repeat as necessary. You'll want Supreme Parry Stance for the DR5/- and possibly Stance of Alacrity with Lightning Recovery (though with the low ACs you might not need it) and Wall of Blades, possibly use Rapid Counter instead if he goes for charging or something.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 05:58 PM
Charging is not generally a concern for me, due to Elusive Target, but having a counter for it never hurts I guess.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 06:12 PM
Wall of Blades is a great shutdown for an ubercharger that lacks pounce. Suddenly your AC 16 becomes AC AB+1d20.

Tartarus: It's a huge devotion of maneuvers, but you could do both.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-15, 06:22 PM
Hrm. I'm sure there's some way to get Pearl of Black Doubt to own his face. Maybe that, Child of Night, tons of AC (DMG magic items can get your AC DAMN high)... You'll win by sheer audacity, and I'm a fan of that :D

Kurald Galain
2008-04-15, 06:28 PM
Since the book list does not have any sources that includes Binding, shadowcasting, and Incarnum, the point is moot. I don't see how a Fighter 20 can have Invocations to be honest.

Me neither, but you can learn Binding and Truenaming purely from feats, if you really want to.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-15, 06:35 PM
Wall of Blades is a great shutdown for an ubercharger that lacks pounce. Suddenly your AC 16 becomes AC AB+1d20.

Tartarus: It's a huge devotion of maneuvers, but you could do both.

How is it a huge devotion of maneuvers? If you use everything I listed its only 5 and that leaves 2 more to be readied, maybe some White Raven. It is a better tactic to have a string of maneuvers before recovery than just one then recover. Unless you're referring to prereqs, well, you can change your maneuvers around with some freedom and you do have the other 6 unreadied maneuvers for that.

Worira
2008-04-15, 06:39 PM
I suggest, first off, Raptoran. Flight, plus a nice jump bonus for Tiger Claw.

MammonAzrael
2008-04-15, 06:55 PM
You could also do Dragonborn, with the Wings focus. Yay for flight.

Also Moment of Alacrity, Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose, and TWF with Wounding Kukris? That should be some good starting Con damage. Covering Strike from White Raven. Maybe Bonecrusher from Stone Dragon?

Hurlbut
2008-04-15, 07:00 PM
Actually come to think of it, it would be interesting to see an aerial duel between fighter and warblade, take your pick of any aerial race within the restrictions listed in this thread.

AslanCross
2008-04-15, 07:04 PM
I was under the impression Warblades can't take Martial Study/Stance?

They can. It's how they qualify for prestige classes like Master of Nine.

MammonAzrael
2008-04-15, 07:14 PM
Actually come to think of it, it would be interesting to see an aerial duel between fighter and warblade, take your pick of any aerial race within the restrictions listed in this thread.

That's one way to make the Stone Dragon Maneuvers useless.

EDIT: What the stat and HP method?

Frosty
2008-04-15, 08:14 PM
Please feel free to post entire builds for both sides. I'd be itnerested in them. Stat generation method is 32 point buy. HP is max first level, half +1 the rest.

AmberVael
2008-04-15, 08:37 PM
With the amount of feats a fighter has, and options at this level, I think it might be good to point out (just in case I'm the only one who thought of it) that it is possible for him to have Sunder...
And honestly, while a Warblade's power isn't really in the weapon that they choose, you can't deny that your effectiveness is going to be hampered without one.
I recommend buying multiple weapons of the same type. You have 3000 gold- a few extra coins spent on buying weapon duplicates won't matter, and could help you out quite a bit.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 09:01 PM
And quickdraw. Very useful against sunders?

Chronos
2008-04-15, 09:23 PM
Me neither, but you can learn Binding and Truenaming purely from feats, if you really want to.Incarnum, too. In fact, by the rules, a chameleon can actually end up being a better meldshaper than a genuine Incarnate, at the same ECL.

But while it's possible for a fighter to pick up Truenaming through feats, I don't think it's possible for him to make the DC 55 check to actually do anything with it, under the given constraints.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-15, 09:29 PM
My personal build would be:

Grappler: easy to pump this higher then your opponent and win every check. Game over.

Dungeon Crasher Bullrusher Dragonborn with Shocktrooper, Leap attack, and full ubercharger build, plus Robilair's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Also knockback, and elusive target.

Strategy, fly above opponent, ubercharge downward, do damage, bullrush opponent into ground, do more damage. His turn, he hits me, I hit back twice with robiliar and karmic, each time I do damage, then bullrush him into the ground, doing even more damage.

That's what you could expect from me.

Frosty
2008-04-15, 10:17 PM
Dragonborn is LA+0 and Medium or Small sized? That's part of the restrictions. I don't know the Dragonborn race, so someone will have to fill me in.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-15, 10:23 PM
I recommend buying multiple weapons of the same type. You have 3000 gold- a few extra coins spent on buying weapon duplicates won't matter, and could help you out quite a bit.

Improved Unarmed Strike.

Screw not having a weapon, just blow Feral Death Blow and Mountain Tombstone Strike.

Dragonborn: It's an LA+0 Template that costs you all your racial abilities except racial ability modifiers. Instead, it gives you +CON, -DEX, and wings.

Kizara
2008-04-16, 02:28 AM
I'd say that cheap flying races are against the spirit of this contest.

Da Beast
2008-04-16, 03:07 AM
Spam White Raven tactics every round, using the extra turn to refresh your maneuvers. It will get you an extra attack and let you unload your best maneuvers every round.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-16, 05:26 AM
I'd say that cheap flying races are against the spirit of this contest.

I'd say that they might be if I was using them to fly around shooting, but since I explicitly used it to fight him in melee, I'd hardly call that against the spirit.

I mean, not only can he hit me back, I want him to.

Riffington
2008-04-16, 05:31 AM
Spam White Raven tactics every round, using the extra turn to refresh your maneuvers. It will get you an extra attack and let you unload your best maneuvers every round.

That's an exception to the usual rule that you are your own ally.

Oslecamo
2008-04-16, 05:57 AM
So the fighter can't take martial study, BUT the warblade can take fighter feats.

The fighter can't use ranged combat...God forbid that the fighter may show one of the biggest weakness of the ToB classes compared to the usual melees.

Can the fighter at least full attack, or is that also forbidden?

Why don't you go ahead and say the fighter can't pick extra feats and the warblade gets all ToB schools and maneuvers for free since you're at it?

Is the fighter so uber you need to restrict half of his abilities for the warblade to stand a chance?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-16, 06:03 AM
So the fighter can't take martial study, BUT the warblade can take fighter feats.The fighter should be able to compete with the Warblade without becoming one.
The fighter can't use ranged combat...God forbid that the fighter may show one of the biggest weakness of the ToB classes compared to the usual melees.This is supposed to be a melee competition. But if you want to compare ranged combat, I'd say the Bloodstorm Blade is far better at it than anything other than a Hulking Hurler.

Oslecamo
2008-04-16, 06:23 AM
The fighter should be able to compete with the Warblade without becoming one.This is supposed to be a melee competition. But if you want to compare ranged combat, I'd say the Bloodstorm Blade is far better at it than anything other than a Hulking Hurler.

Then why is the warblade allowed to take fighter feats? Is the warblade so weack it needs to go beg feats to the fighter to be able to win?

As for prcs, please let me go take a few Frenzied berseker levels and then we'll talck about who's the better melee when I'm unkillable by losing HP.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-16, 06:28 AM
Then why is the warblade allowed to take fighter feats? Is the warblade so weack it needs to go beg feats to the fighter to be able to win?No, the Warblade gets them as a class feature. Plus, are there really any that matter? Wepon focus is the only core chain.
As for prcs, please let me go take a few Frenzied berseker levels and then we'll talck about who's the better melee when I'm unkillable by losing HP.Mountain Tombstone Strike and/or Feral Death Blow will kill you anyways.

Armads
2008-04-16, 06:59 AM
Dragonborn is LA+0 and Medium or Small sized? That's part of the restrictions. I don't know the Dragonborn race, so someone will have to fill me in.

Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) By the way, it doesn't cost you your movement modes, so Dragonborn Water Orcs with Wings can swim, fly, walk, AND lose their crappy light sensitivity, and have nice physical stats to boot.




As for prcs, please let me go take a few Frenzied berseker levels and then we'll talk about who's the better melee when I'm unkillable by losing HP.

And you can't stand up if you step on oil. Joy.

A weird strategy: Buy lots of riding dogs. Use war master's charge. Win.

Eldariel
2008-04-16, 07:04 AM
People, don't forget that a Warblade would wipe the floor with a Fighter in a ranged combat. It's just good for everyone that it isn't allowed; thanks to Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, Dancing Mongoose and the fact that you only need so many feats for efficient Archery, Fighter doesn't really even stand a chance. In melee, with Warblade's ability to nova from any range taken away, the fight is much more fair.

AmberVael
2008-04-16, 07:16 AM
Improved Unarmed Strike.

Screw not having a weapon, just blow Feral Death Blow and Mountain Tombstone Strike.

That is another option that would work.
I might suggest the Superior Unarmed Strike feat if he went that route, though it might be better to focus on a different set of feats first.

Armads
2008-04-16, 07:31 AM
People, don't forget that a Warblade would wipe the floor with a Fighter in a ranged combat. It's just good for everyone that it isn't allowed; thanks to Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose, Dancing Mongoose and the fact that you only need so many feats for efficient Archery, Fighter doesn't really even stand a chance. In melee, with Warblade's ability to nova from any range taken away, the fight is much more fair.

By any chance, are you referring to this? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=831418)

Dode
2008-04-16, 07:37 AM
The fighter should be able to compete with the Warblade without becoming one.
If the Fighter can be a better Warblade then the Warblade, then that's a pretty big concession of the argument.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-16, 07:49 AM
If the Fighter can be a better Warblade then the Warblade, then that's a pretty big concession of the argument.But he can't. A human fighter has 19 feats, ignoring flaws. He takes Marital Study and Martial Stance 3 times each, picking maneuvers that are the equal to the Warblade's selection on their own (a big concession on my part as that's far fewer maneuvers than the Warblade gets, and they can't be refreshed, but lets assume). That leaves him with 13 feats. A human Warblade gets 12 Feats, ignoring flaws. So the Warblade, given that the Fighter is trying to be a ToBer, has 1 fewer feat, and in exchange for this, has better HD, int to various saves, skills, and rolls, more skills, a better skill list, the ability to adjust Weapon Focus to handle any weapon you find, Uncanny Dodge, and Dual Stance. Please, don't say the 2 are balanced.

Eldariel
2008-04-16, 09:08 AM
By any chance, are you referring to this? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=831418)

Any Warblade 20 can do it with just Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind-maneuvers (as the ones that count are Time Stands still, Dancing Mongoose and Rapid Mongoose), but yes, I'm referring to e.g. that (except with Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot over GWF and GWS, along with Woodland Archery fit there somewhere).

Point being, the maneuvers enhance archery enough to make up for the lack of feats, especially since Archery only has a certain threshold of useful feats, which you can reach without Fighter-feats. Therefore, banning Archery is helpful for the Fighter.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-16, 11:20 AM
Here is the Warblade build I would probably use:

Race: Shifter (Razorclaw) [Races of Eberron]

Stats: 32 point-buy

racial base points level misc total mod

Str +0 8 13 5 +0 22 +6
Dex +0 8 5 0 +0 13 +1
Con +2 8 4 0 +0 14 +2
Int -2 8 10 0 +0 14 +2
Wis +0 8 0 0 +0 8 -1
Cha -2 8 0 0 +0 6 -2

Skills: Concentration 25, Jump 33[45*], Listen 10, Martial Lore 25, Spot 10, Tumble 24

* - the 45 is the total while shifted and in the Leaping Dragon Stance

Attack: 2 Claws melee +28 (1d4+12, 20/x2)

Feats: 7 +4 bonus
Dodge [PHB]
Mobility [PHB]
Elusive Target [CWar]
Combat Expertise [PHB]
Improved Initiative [PHB]
Battleshifter Training [RoE]
Razorclaw Elite [RoE]
Tigerblooded [ToB]
Combat Reflexes [PHB]
Unnerving Calm [ToB]
Blade Meditation (Tiger Claw) [ToB]

Maneuvers: 13, 7 readied(*)
Mountain Tomestone Strike* - SD
Feral Death Blow* - TC
Lighnting Recovery* - IH
Wall of Blades* - IH
Rapid Counter* - DM
Swooping Dragon Strike* - TC
Hamstring Attack* - TC
Wolf Fang Strike - TC
Claw at the Moon - TC
Iron Heart Surge - IH
Flesh Ripper - TC
Emrald Razor - DM
Insightful Strike - DM

Stances: 4
Leaping Dragon Stance* - TC
Stance of Alacrity* - DM
Stance of Clarity - DM
Punishing Stance - IH

* - enter combat with these active

Equipment:
Mithral Chain Shirt (1100gp) [RotW]
Earthsilk Jersey (150gp) [RoS]
2 doses of Purple Worm Poison (1400gp) [CAdv]
Masterwork Jumping Shoes [A.K.A. Sneakers] (50gp)
350gp left over

So, you start out with 1 dose of Purple Worm Poison already applied to both of your claws. Before the combat begins be sure to initiate a Duel of Wills, unless you don't start that close, if that's the case you might want to change it out for another feat. On your first turn you activate your shifting which will last for 7 rounds (if this isn't long enough you have it 2/day so a total of 14 rounds). Charge in and attack with both claws (as per the Razorclaw Elite feat) and Combat Expertise for -2 to try and get off the Tiring Defense part of Battleshifter Training, you'll want to always CE for -2 until your opponent is fatigued then wail on him with your boosted damage. After the initial charge you should be using Mountain Tomestone Strike, Feral Death Blow, and Swooping Dragon Strike then recover in that order, possibly mix in Hamstring Strike every now and then if his AC is a bit too high, remember that HS's save only prevents half of the Dex damage and half of the speed penalty. If you get your opponents speed reduced to at least 5ft you should be knocking him back as per Tigerblooded so he can full-round attack you anymore (must make a move action to get back in range) unless he is using a reach weapon in which case you don't use that tactic.

Oslecamo
2008-04-16, 11:42 AM
So the Warblade, given that the Fighter is trying to be a ToBer, has 1 fewer feat, and in exchange for this, has better HD, int to various saves, skills, and rolls, more skills, a better skill list, the ability to adjust Weapon Focus to handle any weapon you find, Uncanny Dodge, and Dual Stance. Please, don't say the 2 are balanced.

Except that the fighter gets to cherry pick maneuvers from any school.

And that 4 of the bonus feats of the warblade are from a very suboptimal list.

Fighter can get tumble with cityscape, and already has ride, and honestly there aren't much more skills relevant to combat.

Fighter doesn't really care about uncanny dodge in a 1 to 1 fight anyway.

And if you need to use weapons aptitude, it just means you choose the wrong weapon for your build.

Not to speack of all the available subsitution levels wich allow the fighter to do all kind of nifty things.

Or that the points the warblade is wasting in int the fighter is using in his physical atributes.

Did I mention heavy armor proefeciency? Or weapon supremacy?



Please don't compare apples to bananas.

Frosty
2008-04-16, 11:45 AM
Then why is the warblade allowed to take fighter feats? Is the warblade so weack it needs to go beg feats to the fighter to be able to win?

As for prcs, please let me go take a few Frenzied berseker levels and then we'll talck about who's the better melee when I'm unkillable by losing HP.

The point is seeing how well a traditional melee Fighter can do without the help of ToB. Warblades have always had access to Fighter-only feats...not that he really should waste any feats on Weapon Specialization or anything like that anyways but...

Rutee
2008-04-16, 01:15 PM
Wait, you're arguing that the Fighter can be a better Warblade while restricted to IL 10? And doesn't the feat still restrict you to learning level 5 maneuvers based on your Initiator Level?

Besides, if you need all these other books that have Fighter fixes, aren't you pretty much saying Warblades are better out of the box? I mean a Warblade really only needs the Bo9S to be good. How many is that for the Fighter now?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-16, 02:11 PM
Besides, if you need all these other books that have Fighter fixes, aren't you pretty much saying Warblades are better out of the box? I mean a Warblade really only needs the Bo9S to be good. How many is that for the Fighter now?

And I'd only need one book for an awesome fighter if I put it in a book all it's own and gave it all the feats aimed mostly at fighters. It also take up about as much room as the maneuvers section of ToB.

Are you seriously arguing that the Warblade is better because it was lucky enough to be in a book designed entirely for three classes instead 12 and it came out later when WotC realized that Fighter types were underpowered?

If Warblade had been Core but had maybe a third of the maneuvers in Core, and Fighter had come out in it's own book with a special set up of feats an ACFs, in it's own special book that included all the good ones (Bullrush, Overpowering Assault, Ubercharger feats) would you say that the fighter was better?

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-16, 02:53 PM
Wait, you're arguing that the Fighter can be a better Warblade while restricted to IL 10? And doesn't the feat still restrict you to learning level 5 maneuvers based on your Initiator Level?

Besides, if you need all these other books that have Fighter fixes, aren't you pretty much saying Warblades are better out of the box? I mean a Warblade really only needs the Bo9S to be good. How many is that for the Fighter now?

And not only that, but Warblades can take the same feat except they get more out of it because their IL is equal to their class level (not 1/2 class level). Also, you may only take the feat 3 times total and they never recover unless you have adept levels.


Except that the fighter gets to cherry pick maneuvers from any school.
Warblades can take that feat to better effect which allows some other schools. Additionally, based purely on the maneuver prerequisites, a fighter can't "cherrypick" above 2nd level maneuvers if even that, he must stay in one discipline if he wants anything of a higher level.


And that 4 of the bonus feats of the warblade are from a very suboptimal list.
I'll give you that, but at least there are a few decent feats on that list.


Fighter can get tumble with cityscape, and already has ride, and honestly there aren't much more skills relevant to combat.
How? I don't remember any class variants in cityscape.


Fighter doesn't really care about uncanny dodge in a 1 to 1 fight anyway.
Well, in the overall perspective of class vs. class, Uncanny Dodge is very useful.


And if you need to use weapons aptitude, it just means you choose the wrong weapon for your build.
Maybe not in a one-on-one fight, but in a campaign have you ever had a situation where the fighter uses this type of weapon (and has the weapon focus tree for it) then you find an awesome magical weapon of a different type as loot? Weapon aptitude allows you to insantly trade with out loosing many of your class features.


Not to speack of all the available subsitution levels wich allow the fighter to do all kind of nifty things.
Sure, but many maneuvers can do those things just as well if not better.
Counterattack: a 12th alternate, Iron Heart's 6th level counter Manticore Parry is better since you don't even have the chance of getting hit, but still damage your opponent.
Elusive Attack: a 6th level alternate that increases every 5 levels, Diamond Mind's Pearl of Black Doubt potentially gives you much higher AC bonuses and you don't even waste an attack, it's always active (and a 3rd level maneuver). If not that Wall of Blades is a huge AC boost that doesn't take up an attack (though only is against 1 attack) is a 2nd level maneuver, you can get it 3 levels earlier!
Overpowering Attack: a 16th level alternate, double damage to all attacks until the start of your next turn? I'll stick with my Diamond Nightmare Blade which is easier to hit with (concentration check) and deals quadruple damage! Not to mention you can get it a level earlier.

And that's just the PHB2 alternates and there an still many, many maneuvers that do all sorts of awesome effects built in like ability damage, stunning, extra damage and boost your allies.


Or that the points the warblade is wasting in int the fighter is using in his physical atributes.
But a Warblade doesn't need physical stats as much because 1) he has a high HD and 2) many maneuvers give attack bonuses or allow for different types of rolls to be made for attacks. Therefore, the warblade can free up points to put into Int and thus get 1) more skills and 2) neat bonuses that the fighter can't get.


Did I mention heavy armor proefeciency? Or weapon supremacy?
The warblade is about mobility and anyway with stances like Black Pearl of Doubt, Stance of Clarity, and Supreme Blade Parry as well as various maneuvers that grant DR and AC boosts a warblade doesn't miss heavy armor.


Please don't compare apples to bananas.
Apples to bananas? Both the fighter and warblade are built for the same thing, and can do many of the same things except the warblade can do them better plus things the fighter wouldn't dare dream of. The warblade is fighter 2.0 in my opinion, a vast improvement meant to replace him altogether.

Eldariel
2008-04-16, 03:53 PM
Fighters get Tumble through the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), more precisely the 'Skilled City-Dweller', allowing them to trade Ride for Tumble (and Handle Animal for Gather Information).

As far as Fighter features go:
Overpowering Attack (PHBII): The true use of this ability is in a TWF Double Hit Attack of Opportunity-build. It doubles the damage for all attacks of opportunity you do so maximize your AoOs (Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Mage Slayer, High Sword Low Axe+Double Hit, etc.) and you'll be dealing insane amounts of damage out of your turn. This is pretty much unique, and definitely a reason to take 16 levels of Fighter.
Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape): Should be obvious, but nothing else has this feature and thus all Dungeon Crasher-builds are specifically Fighter-only, requiring at least 6 levels for the full potency.


That said, I'd go with Warblade on this subject; a straight Fighter focusing on a single strategy can probably go head to head with a straight Warblade focusing on the same thing, but the thing is, the Warblade can do a number of other things too while the Fighter is limited to the one. Also, Warblade is flexible in his weapon selection; many games don't have á la carte for weapons and many Wizards don't take Craft Magic Arms and Armor in favour of more generally useful feats, so you're at the mercy of what you find and when you find a really efficient Greataxe, it's a bummer if your feats are all directed towards Greatsword. So yea, Weapon Aptitude allows you to make better use of the loot.


Basically, Fighter is on the same powerlevel as Warblade on most things, but Warblade can do many of those things at once and has a customizable selection of abilities, more skillpoints, better skill selection and is overall the more versatile one. In this duel though, the specific builds would decide all as long as we aren't talking archery.

Aquillion
2008-04-16, 06:59 PM
No, the Warblade gets them as a class feature.And the fighter (ever since the Book of Nine Swords was published) gets 1/2 initiator level progression as a basic class feature, which you are inexplicably forbidding him from using. What's your point?

As others have said, if the fighter can use the Warblade abilities it has access to via feats (as, again, one of its basic class abilities) better than the Warblade can use the abilities it gets from its class abilities + feats... the fighter has won. Period. It hasn't "become a warblade", it's beaten the warblade at its own game.

You can't suggest a serious comparison with an entire fairly-powerful book (the Book of Nine Swords) allowed for only one of the competitors. The Book of Nine Swords isn't just a Warblade book; it's a book for fighters, too, and it contains several fighter bonus feats that dramatically expand the fighter's power -- fighter bonus feats being a mechanic which, I remind you, are the fighter's only class feature. Sure, the fighter gets some of the Warblade's toys. So what? It can get them via one of their class features; arguing that the Fighter can't use the TOB maneuvers that its basic class features can get it access to when TOB is involved is like arguing that Clerics shouldn't be allowed to use Divine Power in debates, because full BAB is supposed to be a melee-class thing. It's an argument that doesn't make any sense... picking up bits and pieces of various diverse combat-oriented abilities via their (supposedly) versatile feat selection was supposed to be what the fighter was all about. It doesn't generally work that way, but the TOB is one case where it does.

Fighters should get every bonus feat and all the advantages printed for the class, unless you seriously want to argue that they're overpowered. Those are the only reasonable rules.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-16, 07:55 PM
That's an exception to the usual rule that you are your own ally.

Sage Advice/ The FAQ is NOT ERRATA.

By the RAW you are your own ally and can do White Raven Tactics cheese. Whether or not your DM houserules differently is up to them.

Rutee
2008-04-16, 08:18 PM
And I'd only need one book for an awesome fighter if I put it in a book all it's own and gave it all the feats aimed mostly at fighters. It also take up about as much room as the maneuvers section of ToB.


You mean like the Complete Warrior?

Seriously, that's ludicrous. You're saying Warblade is only good because Bo9S was meant for it (It's not entirely meant for Warblade, FYI), but if you had a book entirely meant for Fighters, it'd be just as good 'out of the box'? Seriously, if you have to go through that many books to make a Fighter on a Warblade's playing field, you're pretty much saying by default that the Warblade is better by default, hon.

Deepblue706
2008-04-16, 08:28 PM
If you want to prepare yourself to go up against a Fighter in melee, find a way to deal with all of these:

1 Improved Initiative
1F Combat Reflexes
2F Combat Expertise
3 Hold the Line
4F Dodge
6 Power Attack
6F Improved Bull Rush
8F Improved Sunder
9 Stand Still
10F Improved Trip
12 Karmic Strike
12F Improved Combat Expertise
14F Combat Brute
15 Quick Draw
16F Mounted Combat
18 Knockdown
18F Ride-By Attack
20F Spirited Charge

Those are the feats I'd put a lot of consideration into (as if I were to be the Fighter), anyway. He'd likely begin atop a mount, and if he wins initiative, you can guarentee he'll do a spirited charge against you. That'll hurt no matter what, because of the triple damage dealt. I don't think you can use Combat Brute's Sundering Cleave with a lance, so also consider the possibility of him wielding a bigger weapon like a Glaive. He can still charge at you recklessly and really smash your weapons up, and still hit you in the process. You should seek a way to avoid his charge attack, whether it be charging him first, seeking cover, or any other method that doesn't otherwise leave you compromised.

If he's ready to charge on his horse, then he'll have a lance in hand. That means he has reach. That means if you charge him without some of your own, he'll get a free AoO against you, which he can spend to use Stand Still, to stop you in your tracks. If you have good reflexes, you may be able to get around this - but, he could easily place a vicious enchantment on the weapon to deal considerable damage, making that reflex save rather high. Also be aware that he may have a Guisarme, and be able to do some annoying trip-tastic nonsense. At 10ft reach.

So, it is essential to have a reach weapon.

Now, lets say you DO have one, and close the gap between you before he can make a spirited charge - there's still a problem. He can make a full withdraw at a speed greater than yours to increase the distance again, unless YOU have a horse, as well. Which means he can just ride away, and then charge back again. So, get a mount, too.

If he does decide to charge you, you may have a chance to do some harm back, granted you have reach. If you have Hold the Line, you can hit him before his charge connects. He'll already be within distance, so you can't quite use Stand Still against him (unless your reach is otherwise enhanced). A Longspear will grant you two times the damage against a charging foe - which may be more wisely used against his mount. A typical Heavy Warhorse has 30 HP, according to the SRD - so, go for that. Shouldn't be too hard with a multiplier on your damage. The Fighter will fall to the ground, and then real melee can begin.

From there, you need to consider more counter tactics that are more involved with the ToB-specific abilities, which I have no familiarity of. Regardless, I believe the concerns I have listed above are legitimate and should take priority. The feats I have listed are ones I would choose myself - but know that I spent about 5 minutes determining that selection, and there may be other tricks that you have to look out for.

Rutee
2008-04-16, 08:36 PM
Those are the feats I'd put a lot of consideration into (as if I were to be the Fighter), anyway. He'd likely begin atop a mount, and if he wins initiative, you can guarentee he'll do a spirited charge against you. That'll hurt no matter what, because of the triple damage dealt. I don't think you can use Combat Brute's Sundering Cleave with a lance, so also consider the possibility of him wielding a bigger weapon like a Glaive. He can still charge at you recklessly and really smash your weapons up, and still hit you in the process. You should seek a way to avoid his charge attack, whether it be charging him first, seeking cover, or any other method that doesn't otherwise leave you compromised.
Wield a Spear or Lance, AoO the horse. Right off the bat, at least. Unless they changed the DnD rules on Riding. I recall reach weapons striking adjacent while mounted, and non-reach requiring you to have moved into their square, or some such? Hm, to the PHB I suppose.

Deepblue706
2008-04-16, 08:38 PM
Wield a Spear or Lance, AoO the horse. Right off the bat, at least. Unless they changed the DnD rules on Riding. I recall reach weapons striking adjacent while mounted, and non-reach requiring you to have moved into their square, or some such? Hm, to the PHB I suppose.

Yeah, that's what I said in the later section of my post. Go for the horse with a Longspear (or lance if you have a horse and are planning the same maneuver).

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-16, 08:54 PM
As far as Fighter features go:
Overpowering Attack (PHBII): The true use of this ability is in a TWF Double Hit Attack of Opportunity-build. It doubles the damage for all attacks of opportunity you do so maximize your AoOs (Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Mage Slayer, High Sword Low Axe+Double Hit, etc.) and you'll be dealing insane amounts of damage out of your turn. This is pretty much unique, and definitely a reason to take 16 levels of Fighter.
I give you that, this is one thing I've seen that the warblade can't do specifically, though with all the various effects and bonus damages, I'd rather take the warblade anyway.


Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape): Should be obvious, but nothing else has this feature and thus all Dungeon Crasher-builds are specifically Fighter-only, requiring at least 6 levels for the full potency.
Um, Setting Sun anyone? True it's not bull-rushing but they're throws are actually better in the way that you can distance yourself from your target (remember that an adept almost never takes full-round attacks and is highly mobile) and the Setting Sun throws leave your opponent prone as a plus and it might even crush a second opponent! If that's not good enough for you, 1st level Stone Dragon maneuver: Charging Minotaur, yes its half (exactly) the damage as Dungeon Crasher, but does not rely on a wall, you only need to succeed on the bull rush attempt and that's a level earlier. If you want to refer to the other aspects of the ability, I've already addressed AC boosts, and as for the bonus to breaking stuff? Mountain Hammer, a 2nd level Stone Dragon maneuver: ignore all hardness (and DR) and deals +2d6 damage (you can use it with an unarmed strike to easily break out of jail).

skywalker
2008-04-16, 09:02 PM
Wield a Spear or Lance, AoO the horse. Right off the bat, at least. Unless they changed the DnD rules on Riding. I recall reach weapons striking adjacent while mounted, and non-reach requiring you to have moved into their square, or some such? Hm, to the PHB I suppose.

They must have, because reach weapons do have reach, even while mounted.

Killing the horse would be easy, methinks.

@oslecamo: He can have ride or tumble, not both.

My take on the argument is, the fighter may win, but the warblade will definitely have more fun.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-16, 09:24 PM
You mean like the Complete Warrior?

No, I mean like a book that contains all their ACFs, and all Fighter Bonus feats.


Seriously, that's ludicrous. You're saying Warblade is only good because Bo9S was meant for it (It's not entirely meant for Warblade, FYI), but if you had a book entirely meant for Fighters, it'd be just as good 'out of the box'? Seriously, if you have to go through that many books to make a Fighter on a Warblade's playing field, you're pretty much saying by default that the Warblade is better by default, hon.

Are you even thinking about this? The Warblade comes out in nearly the last 3.5 book and invents a whole new concept. So they have to give him enough customization options to make him comparable to all the characters with multiple books.

If the Fighter was a new concept, coming out in the very last book for 3.5 it would have all Fighter ACFs in it and all Fighter only bonus feats that are in the PHB, PHB II, and Complete Warrior. That would be enough to make the Fighter comparable to the Warblade.

Comparing the "default" Fighter to the "default" Warblade isn't a real comparison. Because they didn't release the Warblade to compare against the Core Fighter. The Warblade is better then the Core Cleric at melee for gods sake. The specifically piled 3-4 splatbooks worth of material into ToB to make those classes comparable because there weren't going to be any updates.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-16, 09:30 PM
Um, Setting Sun anyone? True it's not bull-rushing but they're throws are actually better in the way that you can distance yourself from your target (remember that an adept almost never takes full-round attacks and is highly mobile) and the Setting Sun throws leave your opponent prone as a plus and it might even crush a second opponent! If that's not good enough for you, 1st level Stone Dragon maneuver: Charging Minotaur, yes its half (exactly) the damage as Dungeon Crasher, but does not rely on a wall, you only need to succeed on the bull rush attempt and that's a level earlier. If you want to refer to the other aspects of the ability, I've already addressed AC boosts, and as for the bonus to breaking stuff? Mountain Hammer, a 2nd level Stone Dragon maneuver: ignore all hardness (and DR) and deals +2d6 damage (you can use it with an unarmed strike to easily break out of jail).

Except that a Fighter build can take Knockback and can Bullrush their opponent into the wall on every AoO too. Not to mention Ubercharging into a Bullrush into a wall, Certainly puts Diamond Nightmare Blade to Shame.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-16, 10:17 PM
Except that a Fighter build can take Knockback and can Bullrush their opponent into the wall on every AoO too. Not to mention Ubercharging into a Bullrush into a wall, Certainly puts Diamond Nightmare Blade to Shame.

A warblade will almost never provoke an AoO, secondly, with all the ways to boost Ac or otherwise deter attacks, power attacks are easy to dodge including Stonefoot Stance which boosts AC vs larger creatures as well as grants a bonus to Strength checks. Then there is a 3rd level stance Roots of the Mountain: +10 to resist bull rush, trip, etc. plus DR2/- for some icing. That combined with some nice "you can't move now" maneuvers and good ol' damage boosts without attack roll penalties.

Rutee
2008-04-16, 10:27 PM
Comparing the "default" Fighter to the "default" Warblade isn't a real comparison. Because they didn't release the Warblade to compare against the Core Fighter. The Warblade is better then the Core Cleric at melee for gods sake. The specifically piled 3-4 splatbooks worth of material into ToB to make those classes comparable because there weren't going to be any updates.
WotC must actually be wizards then, since in a 180ish page book they emulated 800 pages worth of material.. and they managed to do it for 3 classes to boot.

Again, if you devoted 180 pages to a fighter, they'd probably be as good, but Warblades didn't get 180. Warblade + Swordsage + Crusader got 180 pages. And given that there are more styles available to Swordsage then others, I'd argue that the Warblade didn't really get an even split of the 180 pages.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-16, 11:26 PM
A warblade will almost never provoke an AoO, secondly, with all the ways to boost Ac or otherwise deter attacks, power attacks are easy to dodge including Stonefoot Stance which boosts AC vs larger creatures as well as grants a bonus to Strength checks. Then there is a 3rd level stance Roots of the Mountain: +10 to resist bull rush, trip, etc. plus DR2/- for some icing. That combined with some nice "you can't move now" maneuvers and good ol' damage boosts without attack roll penalties.

1) I'm glad your Warblade always has the situational Stances up, all four of them, at the same time. Even so he fails against a Bullrush built Dungeoncrasher.

2) He does provoke AoOs. Two of them in fact. Every time he attacks. God save him if he tries a Time Stands Still instead of Diamond Nightmare Blade after my first charge.

3) And you misunderstand. I'm not losing any to hit from PA, only AC, which is fine, because every time he hits me, I hit him back twice and Bullrush him into the ground twice.


WotC must actually be wizards then, since in a 180ish page book they emulated 800 pages worth of material.. and they managed to do it for 3 classes to boot.

Again, if you devoted 180 pages to a fighter, they'd probably be as good, but Warblades didn't get 180. Warblade + Swordsage + Crusader got 180 pages. And given that there are more styles available to Swordsage then others, I'd argue that the Warblade didn't really get an even split of the 180 pages.

If they devoted 40 pages to Fighter mechanics it would have every single Fighter bonus feat ever made, all ACFs, and the Actual class.

The problem is the fighter never got 40 pages. He was in a book with the actual rules and 11 other classes, then he got a few dinky feats in two other books that are primarily devoted to fluff, explanations of how to have a military campaign, and the other 3 classes in those books, not mention support for Barbarians and PrCs.

And then he has a half page ACF in Dungeonscape.

Aquillion
2008-04-16, 11:47 PM
WotC must actually be wizards then, since in a 180ish page book they emulated 800 pages worth of material.. and they managed to do it for 3 classes to boot.

Again, if you devoted 180 pages to a fighter, they'd probably be as good, but Warblades didn't get 180. Warblade + Swordsage + Crusader got 180 pages. And given that there are more styles available to Swordsage then others, I'd argue that the Warblade didn't really get an even split of the 180 pages.They share many of them, though... and those books are simply much more dense in terms of abilities than anything that was ever published for the fighter.

Seriously, total the number of fighter bonus feats everywhere. I count a little over 200 in all published WotC sources (at least, the ones in the lists I'm checking), including Dragon Magazine (which probably won't be available in most games.) Note that a significant percentage (possibly even the majority) of these feats are nearly unusably bad.

Now look at the ToB. How many maneuvers and stances are there in that one book? How many of those are useless, by comparison?

Frosty
2008-04-16, 11:55 PM
Wield a Spear or Lance, AoO the horse. Right off the bat, at least. Unless they changed the DnD rules on Riding. I recall reach weapons striking adjacent while mounted, and non-reach requiring you to have moved into their square, or some such? Hm, to the PHB I suppose.

No, mounted lancing still has reach like normal. You'd probably need Hold the Line or something to get an AoO against the charge. If you win initiative, I guess you could quaff a potion of Enlarge Person so get even reach.

The Fighter can't do the same because his horse can't be enlarged like that.

Frosty
2008-04-16, 11:59 PM
3) And you misunderstand. I'm not losing any to hit from PA, only AC, which is fine, because every time he hits me, I hit him back twice and Bullrush him into the ground twice.

I'm not sure PA would ever enter this fight. The Warblade should almost definitely have Elusive Target. It's just too good to ignore.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 12:10 AM
I'm not sure PA would ever enter this fight. The Warblade should almost definitely have Elusive Target. It's just too good to ignore.

Yeah, but with My AC already crap for not focusing on it, and my actual desire to get hit to increase my AoOs, and since it only affects AC, might as well Power attack for full.

Plus it's fun to say, you take 200 damage, +320 if you hadn't taken the one specific feat line that saves you, and most enemies wouldn't have.

Oh you hit me? yeah, another 200 + 320 if you hadn't taken that feat.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 12:25 AM
How is the fighter getting to 200 damage without Power Attack? I would like to learn.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 12:50 AM
1) I'm glad your Warblade always has the situational Stances up, all four of them, at the same time. Even so he fails against a Bullrush built Dungeoncrasher.
Um, no, I have 4 stances that can be switched out as a swift action depending on which works best.


2) He does provoke AoOs. Two of them in fact. Every time he attacks. God save him if he tries a Time Stands Still instead of Diamond Nightmare Blade after my first charge.
Considering you're fighter is up against my warblade, 1) my first attack was a Mountain Tomestone Strike thats a minimum of 40 damage without weapon or strength damage, maximum of 120 without weapon or strength. Plus it reduces your fort and can possibly kill you outright in two to three rounds depending on your con. Of course, I'm only using it every 4 rounds or so, but then the next round I use Feral Death Blow a save-or-die with your reduced fort save or a bunch of damage, then the next round is Swooping Dragon Strike which calls for a minimum DC46 max DC65 fort save or be stunned for the round I recover and get ready to go again. With my effects and ability damage, I will out last you and my counters allow me to dodge more of your attacks...oh and I'm rarely within 5ft since I away every other turn and your bull rush is arena-dependent.


3) And you misunderstand. I'm not losing any to hit from PA, only AC, which is fine, because every time he hits me, I hit him back twice and Bullrush him into the ground twice.
Except when I stun you and I redirect on of your attacks (the most damaging one) back at you and just negate one other every three or four rounds.

Of course, arguing on counter points isn't going to go anywhere. Want to meet in battle? I'll polish up my Warblade and you your fighter using the original rules in the OP except ban poison (that was a cheap trick). You want to have open sheets or hidden? Oh and you do realize that Knockback requires you to be either a Goliath or a Large or larger race, so what race are you that is ECL20 and a 20th level fighter?

GammaPaladin
2008-04-17, 12:52 AM
I would definitely use a few martial study feats to get Counter Charge and Fool's Strike, if it were me. I'd take either Comet Throw or Baffling Defense as the prereq to get Fool's Strike, but since you can't get magic items, I'd make it Comet Throw... You need a HUGE sense motive score to use Baffling Defense effectively, which generally means a +skill item...

Frosty
2008-04-17, 12:55 AM
The stipilation is Medium or Small sized creatures with LA +0 anyways, so Knockback the Feat is out. The weapon enchancement would've been fair game if the MiC was allowed, but only items from the DMG are. And given this is a one-shot battle, consumables should cost like 5 times their normal cost in the full WBL version of the fight. The 3k gold version of the fight everything is priced as normal (nut no magic allowed anyways)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 01:15 AM
How is the fighter getting to 200 damage without Power Attack? I would like to learn.

High Str, plus a Valorous Battle Jump charge means normal damage is quadrupled on a charge. So is Power attack of course, but Elusive Target negates that. Then after hitting with the charge I bullrush into the ground, activating Dungeon Crasher 8d6 + Strx3. That's 200 easy.


Um, no, I have 4 stances that can be switched out as a swift action depending on which works best.

Right, which means you aren't going to have the Bullrush one up when it matters without metagaming, not that it matters, because I'll still win the Bullrush.


Considering you're fighter is up against my warblade, 1) my first attack was a Mountain Tomestone Strike thats a minimum of 40 damage without weapon or strength damage, maximum of 120 without weapon or strength. Plus it reduces your fort and can possibly kill you outright in two to three rounds depending on your con. Of course, I'm only using it every 4 rounds or so, but then the next round I use Feral Death Blow a save-or-die with your reduced fort save or a bunch of damage, then the next round is Swooping Dragon Strike which calls for a minimum DC46 max DC65 fort save or be stunned for the round I recover and get ready to go again. With my effects and ability damage, I will out last you and my counters allow me to dodge more of your attacks...oh and I'm rarely within 5ft since I away every other turn and your bull rush is arena-dependent.

Considering that I'm up against a Warblade I can be guaranteed to hit first, since my charge out distances your move/standard action.

Since my First round I'm doing about 200 damage, and then probably another 200 on AoOs next round, you'll be dead in one round.

And of course, my bullrush isn't very arena dependent at all. It pretty much just goes like this: Are you standing on the ground? Yes? I bullrush you into it. Not to mention that I wield a Spiked Chain and can direct my bullrushes at angles thanks to Shocktrooper.

I was assuming you would have a spiked Chain to, (still wouldn't save you from being bullrushed into the ground on each of my AoOs) but if you didn't then I would just happily kill you from above, though I could still do that anyway if you couldn't become large.


Of course, arguing on counter points isn't going to go anywhere. Want to meet in battle? I'll polish up my Warblade and you your fighter using the original rules in the OP except ban poison (that was a cheap trick). You want to have open sheets or hidden? Oh and you do realize that Knockback requires you to be either a Goliath or a Large or larger race, so what race are you that is ECL20 and a 20th level fighter?

No I don't want to meet you in battle, I don't like building high level characters that I never get to play. Nor do I like the stacking cheese fests that duels always become. However, you'll note that what I have presented here is a basic build that easily compares or surpasses Warblades in melee combat. I never claimed I could make the best character ever, merely one that would beat 90% of Warblades.

Who was using poison? I didn't see that anywhere in your posts.

That would be a Permanently Enlarged Dragonborn (Wings) Water Orc.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 01:35 AM
Flying is a very good counter against Dungeoncrasher. If the Warblade is of a race that can fly, you may have trouble actually getting the crashing to happen, depending on the battleground. If the fight takes place high up enough, you may not be able to bullrush into the ground.

And how are you doing a Bullrush after the charge if you're hitting first? You're NOT a goliath, so how are you getting Knockback? And what makes you think you'll definitely be hitting on the charge attack? Between maybe actually caring about AC and having a counter that uses his attack roll vs yours, you may very well miss. There's also cloaks of displacement.

Meanwhile, the Warblade might not ever miss due to your AC being non-existent. Hell, he doesn't even need the proficiency for it because the -4 won't matter, and he can most likely use Combat Expertise for all it is worth.

By the way, can you make an AoO if you are stunned?

Rutee
2008-04-17, 01:38 AM
By the way, can you make an AoO if you are stunned?

WHile this level of bookdiving is sufficiently beyond my resources (Since I'm not going to bother obtaining books for this), this I can answer. No Dex to AC, no AoO, so no, you can't AoO while stunned.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 01:45 AM
WHile this level of bookdiving is sufficiently beyond my resources (Since I'm not going to bother obtaining books for this), this I can answer. No Dex to AC, no AoO, so no, you can't AoO while stunned.

May I ask what books you have access to, Rutee? Me, I've slowly acquired the vast majority of the more popular 3.5 books over the past year. Yay for having a job ^_^

Hmm, so being Stunned is really bad. Isn't there a White Raven maneuver that Stuns with no save? You can stun the Fighter as a standard action, making him drop his weapon and anything else he's carrying, and then use a move action to pick it up. Then, use White Raven Tactics on yourself. It's your turn again. You use a move action to put the weapon in your haversack or something, then either unleash another maneuver on the Fighter, or use a Swift action and an attack to recover your maneuvers.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 01:46 AM
Meanwhile, the Warblade might not ever miss due to your AC being non-existent. Hell, he doesn't even need the proficiency for it because the -4 won't matter, and he can most likely use Combat Expertise for all it is worth.
Also note that Battleshifter Training allows me to get him fatigued indefinitely after two rounds as long as I combat expertise for at least 2. And fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) means...
A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.
So, no more bull rushing or charging.


By the way, can you make an AoO if you are stunned?
From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned)

A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

Edit:
Hmm, so being Stunned is really bad. Isn't there a White Raven maneuver that Stuns with no save? You can stun the Fighter as a standard action, making him drop his weapon and anything else he's carrying, and then use a move action to pick it up. Then, use White Raven Tactics on yourself. It's your turn again. You use a move action to put the weapon in your haversack or something, then either unleash another maneuver on the Fighter, or use a Swift action and an attack to recover your maneuvers.
Well, my build has the Tiger Claw "Swooping Dragon Strike" which is a jump check w/attack that stuns but allows a fort save to negate the stun...of course the DC is equal to the jump check so a minimum of DC46, max of DC65 as it stands. That allows for only a nat 20 unless the fighter has insane con and I roll really low.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 01:53 AM
Battleshifter Training is from Races of Eberron?

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 01:55 AM
Battleshifter Training is from Races of Eberron?

Correct, it gives a few tactical maneuvers based around combat expertise and full defense to fatigue/exhaust your opponents.

Rutee
2008-04-17, 01:57 AM
Wait, guys. The first post doesn't allow Dungeonscape in the first place Why is Bullrushing still an issue if Dungeon Crasher can't be used?

Frosty
2008-04-17, 02:02 AM
Wait, guys. The first post doesn't allow Dungeonscape in the first place Why is Bullrushing still an issue if Dungeon Crasher can't be used?

True true. Dungeonscape is not one of the allowed books anyways for this exercise.

lord_khaine
2008-04-17, 03:30 AM
btw, i have a question about Dungeon Crasher, does it actualy say you can crash people into the floor as well, or is it just something people have desidet must be possible as well?

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 10:51 AM
btw, i have a question about Dungeon Crasher, does it actualy say you can crash people into the floor as well, or is it just something people have desidet must be possible as well?

It reads "If you force an opponent into a wall or other solid object..." one could say yes, the floor is solid thus I can body slam you. Well, I then look at the bull rush text which says this: "When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him." of course, dungeon crasher modifies the damaging part, but the words "straight back" infer horizontal motion, not a body slam. A bull rush is supposed to be pushing some one back, not smashing them into the floor. Therefore, I don't allow that interpretation in my games.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 10:54 AM
I'd allow it if both people are flying and the one on top bullrushes the other one downwards into the ground.

Deepblue706
2008-04-17, 11:31 AM
Killing the horse would be easy, methinks.


Keep in mind that the Fighter gets a ride check to have the attack miss his mount entirely - He'll have 23 ranks in ride, as well as his DEX mod to to check (which will be high if he wants to win initiative). If he has a +3 mod, that's an average of 36.5 effective AC for the horse, not accounting for any magical boosts. If he's a human, he can grab Skill Focus: Ride with his bonus feat, and that may not make killing the horse such a sure thing on the first pass. Still, that's probably your best bet - do whatever you can to boost your attack bonus against it.

MammonAzrael
2008-04-17, 11:32 AM
And why would the Warblade not use Covering Strike, which would deny you AoOs for 3 rounds? It's a boost, so the Warblade can still get the Mountain Tombstone Strike off as well on the first round. And you still have the options of Fool's Strike or Counter Charge.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 11:41 AM
Ooh, which discipline is covering strike from?

GammaPaladin
2008-04-17, 11:44 AM
Counter Charge -> Comet Throw -> Refresh

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Note that all the *Throw maneuvers from Setting Sun will unhorse a rider if successful.

MammonAzrael
2008-04-17, 11:54 AM
Covering Strike
4th Level White Raven Boost
1 Swift Action
3 round duration
All foes you strike after initiating Covering Strike can't make AoOs for 3 rounds. They still threaten, just can't AoO.

Yeah, why wouldn't a Warblade have this?

Deepblue706
2008-04-17, 12:00 PM
Counter Charge -> Comet Throw -> Refresh

Lather, rinse, repeat.

Note that all the *Throw maneuvers from Setting Sun will unhorse a rider if successful.

Wait, I thought this was a competition with no ranged combat. Does comet throw send something at the Fighter, or is he throwing the Fighter? Sorry, no ToB here.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 12:01 PM
Covering Strike
4th Level White Raven Boost
1 Swift Action
3 round duration
All foes you strike after initiating Covering Strike can't make AoOs for 3 rounds. They still threaten, just can't AoO.

Yeah, why wouldn't a Warblade have this?

I knew there was something like that, I guess I missed it amongst the "Charge and do X" maneuvers. Yes, that is definitely a boost the warblade should have. Here is the revised maneuver/feat list for my warblade build:

Maneuvers
Mountain Tomestone Strike*
Feral Death Blow*
Covering Strike*
Wall of Blades*
Manticore Parry*
Swooping Dragon Strike*
Hamstring Attack*

+6 others, non-readied

Stances
Leaping Dragon Stance*
Supreme Blade Parry*
Stance of Clarity
Stonefoot Stance


Feats
Dodge [PHB]
Mobility [PHB]
Elusive Target [CWar]
Combat Expertise [PHB]
Improved Initiative [PHB]
Battleshifter Training [RoE]
Razorclaw Elite [RoE]
Tiger Blooded [ToB]
Combat Reflexes [PHB]
Stone Power [ToB]
Blade Meditation (Tiger Claw) [ToB]

Frosty
2008-04-17, 12:20 PM
Wait, I thought this was a competition with no ranged combat. Does comet throw send something at the Fighter, or is he throwing the Fighter? Sorry, no ToB here.

I think he's throwing the Fighter. That's legal in this match.

Blue Paladin
2008-04-17, 01:43 PM
And why would the Warblade not use Covering Strike, which would deny you AoOs for 3 rounds? It's a boost, so the Warblade can still get the Mountain Tombstone Strike off as well on the first round. And you still have the options of Fool's Strike or Counter Charge.Thank you Mammon! Seriously, that's my very first thought against any AoO build. I'm surprised it took three pages before it was mentioned.

Against any Dungeoncrasher build, +10 is a pretty hefty obstacle. Itemwise it's much easier to boost the defensive side of bull rush than the offensive side (as I learned when making my own Dungeoncrasher). And thanks to the Warblade's capstone ability, he can have Roots of the Mountain on all the time, in addition to whatever his other stance is. He can switch it around as a swift action too.

Versus a grapple build, again, Roots of the Mountain is a free +10 on the defensive side. And maybe the Warblade has Wolverine Stance, and would love to grapple. You say your grapple modifier is (significantly) bigger due to various feats/gear/whatever? I'll just attack at a (gasp) -4 penalty. I'm a full BAB class... I don't really mind too much. Fighter's 1d4 dagger vs. Warblade's 1d8 longsword? Even without Wolverine Stance, a Tiger Claw specialist with two kukris isn't slowed down very much in a grapple.

Consider the flipside where the Warblade goes first. One White Raven Hammer later, any weapon-based build is pretty well neutered. If it's versus some wonky unarmed build, free 2d6 CON hit and shift to [anti-]grapple mode.

Personally, one of my favorite combos was charging in and using a Setting Sun throw to fling the target towards my party; I usually followed up with a White Raven charge the next round. Good times.


Wait, I thought this was a competition with no ranged combat. Does comet throw send something at the Fighter, or is he throwing the Fighter? Sorry, no ToB here.The latter. The Warblade is grabbing the Fighter and hurling him at least 10' (higher level Setting Sun maneuvers can also deal damage).

MammonAzrael
2008-04-17, 01:49 PM
Also, while it's probably not quite as deadly as previously mentioned stuff, Sunder the Fighter's weapon with Ancient Mountain Hammer?

Deepblue706
2008-04-17, 02:15 PM
I think he's throwing the Fighter. That's legal in this match.

Okay, that strikes me as fine. I just didn't want to see someone throwing a weapon, even without the ranged combat feats.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-17, 02:40 PM
Hmm, seems unfair if the Warblade can't use Lightning Throw (Maneuver that allows him to throw his weapon and have it return... no matter what it is)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-17, 02:43 PM
Hmm, seems unfair if the Warblade can't use Lightning Throw (Maneuver that allows him to throw his weapon and have it return... no matter what it is)No, it's fair. This is melee.

The_Snark
2008-04-17, 02:53 PM
Also, while it's probably not quite as deadly as previously mentioned stuff, Sunder the Fighter's weapon with Ancient Mountain Hammer?

You can't use special attacks like sunder attempts, bull rushes, or trips with strikes, unless they specifically say you can (such as Stone Dragon's Fury). It's under the description of a strike.

As for the warblade, I reccomend a blend of some of the following...

-Robilar's Gambit
-Stormguard Warrior
-Avalanche of Blades and Time Stands Still

Let's grab Two-weapon Fighting and maybe some Tiger Claw maneuvers, too.

The fighter is setting himself up for a rather painful next turn every time he attacks you; each time he attacks, he's giving you a +4 to attacks and damage on your next turn.

Avalanche of Blades in combination with Combat Rhythm will give you impressively large damage bonuses on your next turn. The fighter can move away, of course, but if you have Quicksilver Motion it doesn't matter. Time Stands Still means you're taking two full attacks on that next turn, for... let's say 12 attacks (Improved Two-weapon Fighting), all of which are going to be dealing a lot of extra damage (5x the number of touch attacks you hit with, per attack), plus any extra to-hit/damage from attacks the fighter made. If the fighter didn't try to move away, you can hit them with Raging Mongoose and make that 16 attacks. If the rules permit you to use White Raven Tactics on yourself, or if you have Moment of Alacrity, the fighter doesn't even have a chance to react.

Throw in some other useful maneuvers; Covering Strike to negate an AoO fighter, possibly Martial Study (Counter Charge) or Hold the Line. Possibly Wall of Blades, but the fighter may have a higher attack bonus if they went for Weapon Focus/Mastery.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-17, 03:42 PM
So, the fighter has officially been boned by maneuvers ANY Warblade would have, the same way any wizard would pick Fly or Glitterdust or at least one Save or Die.

FINALLY.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 03:50 PM
So, the fighter has officially been boned by maneuvers ANY Warblade would have, the same way any wizard would pick Fly or Glitterdust or at least one Save or Die.

FINALLY.

The difference is that every Warblade doesn't start off with a covering striked White Raven Hammer against every foe, only the ones they already know the character sheet of. Hell if you don't know he's an AoO or charger build before the fight starts why would you even have those readied. You face a stand still lockdowner and you get owned.

Hell how would a Warblade who saw that coming deal with it? Tumble? If you actually allowed Martial Study/Stance to cherry pick Crusader abilities you'd have an invulnerable against melee build even without being large.

30ft Reach, Thicket of Blades Stand still. I'm sure you'll pull some other maneuvers you never would have prepared out that somehow allow you to pierce that.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 03:56 PM
Whatever Reach the Fighter can get, the Warblade can too. And if the Warblade is just sitting there exchanging blows with the Fighter, he's not coming up with the short end of the deal.

The_Snark
2008-04-17, 04:00 PM
You do realize that a permanencied Enlarge Person is both sort of against the spirit of the fight (relying on your own class abilities) and well outside the listed gold limit, right? 30' reach isn't going to be possible.

Tumble is a class skill for warblades; it's reasonable and even likely that they have it.

Alternatively, Thicket of Blades is dealt with via any of the White Raven charge maneuvers. You don't provoke attacks of opportunity for moving when using those, period.

As for your other points... White Raven Hammer is a pretty solid beginning against every foe, practically every character I've made who had Counter Charge always kept it ready, and Covering Strike is a good maneuver that can be easily swapped in via Adaptive Style (which is yet another feat I've given to almost every high-level warblade I've made); against an enemy using a spiked chain, it's very logical to swap it in and employ it as soon as possible.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 04:08 PM
So now the Warblade is taking the same four feats the Fighter took to get 30ft Reach, good thing that's already in your build, except that it isn't.

The 30ft reach is based entirely on feats, not on Enlarge Person, and Thicket of Blades counter acts Tumble, and arguably, Warmasters Charge.

Not to mention that he could still be a Water Orc Dragon Born who flies and has 30ft reach. So he just pummels you from above where you can't do anything.

Seriously, is the Warbalde going to spend four feats to get 30ft reach or not, Shroedingers Warblade is hardly my favorite opponent.

Eldariel
2008-04-17, 04:13 PM
He can also spend one feat on Shadow X-maneuver to trivialize all the lockdown nonsense and land those hits he wants to (of course, funnily enough, Shadow Blink is inferior to Shadow Stride since Shadow Jaunt requires you to prepare a Standard Action/Full-Round Action-maneuver to disable the AoOs - by RAW anyways).

I'll say, at least I pick up Shadow Blink every time I build a Warblade ASAP once I reach IL 13 as it has no prerequisites and it gets you out of tons of jams and overall dramatically increases your mobility.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 04:20 PM
So now the Warblade is taking the same four feats the Fighter took to get 30ft Reach, good thing that's already in your build, except that it isn't.

The 30ft reach is based entirely on feats, not on Enlarge Person, and Thicket of Blades counter acts Tumble, and arguably, Warmasters Charge.

Not to mention that he could still be a Water Orc Dragon Born who flies and has 30ft reach. So he just pummels you from above where you can't do anything.

Seriously, is the Warbalde going to spend four feats to get 30ft reach or not, Shroedingers Warblade is hardly my favorite opponent.

Lord of Madness is not on the list of allowed books. Neither is Unearthed Arcana. Neither is Dragonomicon, or whereever Dragonborn is from. you can be a Raptoran and pummel someone from above though. But then, so can the Warblade. There are plenty of maneuvers to counteract reach issues anyways.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 04:23 PM
Lord of Madness is not on the list of allowed books. Neither is Unearthed Arcana. Neither is Dragonomicon, or whereever Dragonborn is from. you can be a Raptoran and pummel someone from above though. But then, so can the Warblade. There are plenty of maneuvers to counteract reach issues anyways.

Actually, Dragon Born is from an approved book. Of course, if you limit it to Core and ToB and don't let the Fighter take ToB feats, the Warblade will win. Arbitrary limitations on the Fighter class that negate his best three strategies don't prove anything.

And again, is your Warblade a Raptoran or not. I have the feeling the answer is: I'll bring two sheets and use the Raptoran one if the Fighter can fly.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-17, 04:26 PM
To the people who are crying "Schroedinger", remember that no melee build can beat all other melee builds. You need Cindy for that. The Warblade is better than the Fighter in that it can do everything the Fighter can, plus some. Yes, we can't build a Warblade that can defeat every Fighter. But you can't build a Fighter that can defeat most Warblades. A Warblade focused on doing something will be better than a Fighter at it. Yes, it's not perfect, but it is superior.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 04:35 PM
Actually, Dragon Born is from an approved book. Of course, if you limit it to Core and ToB and don't let the Fighter take ToB feats, the Warblade will win. Arbitrary limitations on the Fighter class that negate his best three strategies don't prove anything.

And again, is your Warblade a Raptoran or not. I have the feeling the answer is: I'll bring two sheets and use the Raptoran one if the Fighter can fly.

All completes + PHB2 + all Races of books + core + ToB is a very generous selection of books. It's what my friends have to work with so that's how they wanted to set this thing up. The Fighter can use anything from there except getting a ToB stance/maneuver as long as he has 20 levels of Fighter.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 04:38 PM
To the people who are crying "Schroedinger", remember that no melee build can beat all other melee builds. You need Cindy for that. The Warblade is better than the Fighter in that it can do everything the Fighter can, plus some. Yes, we can't build a Warblade that can defeat every Fighter. But you can't build a Fighter that can defeat most Warblades. A Warblade focused on doing something will be better than a Fighter at it. Yes, it's not perfect, but it is superior.

No it's really not. I've built two Fighters now that both beat most Warblades. And there are plenty of things a Fighter can do better then a Warblade.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 04:43 PM
No it's really not. I've built two Fighters now that both beat most Warblades. And there are plenty of things a Fighter can do better then a Warblade.

And there are Warblade builds that'll beat most Fighters. That is not the point.

I hafta agree with Chosen on the fact that there are things a Fighter can do better than a Warblade.

Eldariel
2008-04-17, 04:47 PM
Didn't I write the synopsis two pages ago already? A Fighter focusing on one thing is probably better at it than a Warblade, while Warblade, by nature, has much more versatility than a Fighter. They can go about head to head in a duel, but outside a duel, Warblades are more versatile and Fighters fill that one job better.

Seriously, walking circles gets nobody nowhere.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 04:48 PM
And there are Warblade builds that'll beat most Fighters. That is not the point.

I know, I was just using that as part of my example that Warblades aren't inherently superior to Fighters. And directly contradicting his statement that you can't build a Fighter that beats most Warblades, since you can.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-17, 04:49 PM
No it's really not. I've built two Fighters now that both beat most Warblades. And there are plenty of things a Fighter can do better then a Warblade.What can a Fighter do that a Warblade can't? Right now the only thing I can think of is Weapon Supremacy. Your builds would beat most Warblades, possibly. However, they'd also beat an even greater portion of Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers. And a Warblade could also do the same thing as your builds do, but better, since he can get maneuvers in addition to feats. I'm trying to understand how a Fighter is better than a Warblade, and maybe I'm missing something. However, a Fighter gets 7 more feats and heavy armor prof. In exchange, a Warblade gets (with a +0 int mod): better HD (the equivalent of Imp. Toughness), 2 additional skill points, Uncanny Dodge, and a class skill list that has both Tumble and Diplomacy on it. Oh, and 9th level Maneuvers and 8th level stances. I am having trouble seeing how they are comparable.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 04:55 PM
What can a Fighter do that a Warblade can't? Right now the only thing I can think of is Weapon Supremacy.

Bullrush, Charge, AoO damage, combine all three.


And a Warblade could also do the same thing as your builds do, but better, since he can get maneuvers in addition to feats.

No he can't. He can't do as much damage as a Fighter. He can't bullrush as effectively. And he can't sure as hell can't combine them together.

Other things Fighters do better: Do more damage through AoOs. Achery and Lockdown they are about equal.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-17, 04:58 PM
Bullrush, Charge, AoO damage, combine all three.

No he can't. He can't do as much damage as a Fighter. He can't bullrush as effectively. And he can't sure as hell can't combine them together.

Other things Fighters do better: Do more damage through AoOs. Achery and Lockdown they are about equal.Why not? Last I checked, Warblades got feats, too,

Draz74
2008-04-17, 05:06 PM
Not nearly as many feats as the fighter. Besides, "combining damage and Bull Rush" usually involves Dungeoncrasher, which is not a feat. It's an alternate class feature.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 05:07 PM
Why not? Last I checked, Warblades got feats, too,

Except that those things involve: A Fighter ACF, Using a lot of feats in a way that doesn't allow the use of most maneuvers, a Fighter ACF, and having enough feats to do multiples of those.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 05:10 PM
I know, I was just using that as part of my example that Warblades aren't inherently superior to Fighters. And directly contradicting his statement that you can't build a Fighter that beats most Warblades, since you can.

Depends on how you define "Superior" I guess. I like versatility, so for my own playstyle, Tome of Battle classes typically beats out Fighter. I think they're changeable and more adaptable.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 05:37 PM
Bullrush, Charge, AoO damage, combine all three.

Uh, no? Didn't I already go over this? Have you looked at the White Raven discipline? The AoO counters? Charging Minotaur & company maneuvers? The best way to compare to classes is set them up with the same party and put that party up against a series of encounters and determine who is more effective. The warblade is far more effective, he interacts with the party, has lots of flexibility to defeat many types of encounters and he can do anything the fighter would do but better.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 05:50 PM
Uh, no? Didn't I already go over this? Have you looked at the White Raven discipline? The AoO counters? Charging Minotaur & company maneuvers? The best way to compare to classes is set them up with the same party and put that party up against a series of encounters and determine who is more effective. The warblade is far more effective, he interacts with the party, has lots of flexibility to defeat many types of encounters and he can do anything the fighter would do but better.

No, because the Fighter kills one enemy in the first round, and possibly more if they attempt to attack him. AoO counters don't matter since only Warblades have them and Warblades make up 1% of your enemies. The Fighter is equally or more effective in the party, because he kills multiple enemies a round, and kills pretty much every enemy.

A Warblade can kill maybe one enemy a round, more likely one every couple rounds. Fighters kill off enemies faster, and can reach them more easily.

Oslecamo
2008-04-17, 06:01 PM
Depends on how you define "Superior" I guess. I like versatility, so for my own playstyle, Tome of Battle classes typically beats out Fighter. I think they're changeable and more adaptable.

Who needs versatility and adaptability when the enemy is already choped down in tiny pieces?:smallbiggrin:

At the end, the maneuvers end up doing one main thing: damage. A warblade can't escape from battle like teleport or completely imobilize an enemy or summon minions to do his biding or deal damage over a big area or make walls pop up from the ground.

If you bother to roleplay your fighter, the end effect is exactly the same. You can give a cool name to your leap attack-shock trooper combo and then describe as you cleave from one enemy to the other while flinging them trough the air.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 06:01 PM
Does that mean you think the Fighter is a good class? What if the terrain is not conducive to charging and you are prevented from flying somehow? Charging is good, but it's not the end-all-be-all.

Oslecamo
2008-04-17, 06:04 PM
Does that mean you think the Fighter is a good class? What if the terrain is not conducive to charging and you are prevented from flying somehow? Charging is good, but it's not the end-all-be-all.

What if the enemy is so far away you can only reach him with a charge when all yor maneuvers are standard actions? What if you are forced to fly and all your jump based maneuvers are now useless? What if you need to drop down the enemy in a single round or it'll unleash some devastating attack?

Frosty
2008-04-17, 06:08 PM
What if the enemy is so far away you can only reach him with a charge when all yor maneuvers are standard actions? What if you are forced to fly and all your jump based maneuvers are now useless? What if you need to drop down the enemy in a single round or it'll unleash some devastating attack?

You can still jump if you have Air-walk. If you need to stop one enemy, Stun it.

Artanis
2008-04-17, 06:16 PM
What if the enemy is so far away you can only reach him with a charge when all yor maneuvers are standard actions? What if you are forced to fly and all your jump based maneuvers are now useless? What if you need to drop down the enemy in a single round or it'll unleash some devastating attack?
Wait wait wait...

So your argument is that the Fighter is the better class because it's somewhat more effective than a Warblade if your enemy is in a specific range band AND there's no obstacles in the way AND the Warblade doesn't have Air Walk AND the party caster has no save-or-die/suck/lose/etc. spells available?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-17, 07:01 PM
Who needs versatility and adaptability when the enemy is already choped down in tiny pieces?:smallbiggrin:

At the end, the maneuvers end up doing one main thing: damage. A warblade can't escape from battle like teleport or completely imobilize an enemy or summon minions to do his biding or deal damage over a big area or make walls pop up from the ground.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Really? Check the maneuver list again. A stance lets you fly, another one do a mini dimdoor indefinetely.

The maneuvers are INCREDIBLY versatile, with summoning and long range 'porting being just about the only thing they can't do (Well, 'sides supercheese. But supercheese is never a factor because it, by definition, outclasses everything else).

To tell the truth, most of the counters to a fighter listed here were pretty common. And really, if it will settle the argument, I'm willing to build a "default list of maneuvers" to use in all circumstances when specific matial adepts aren't being discussed.

Worira
2008-04-17, 07:16 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Really? Check the maneuver list again. A stance lets you fly, another one do a mini dimdoor indefinetely.


And those maneuvers aren't class features for the warblade anymore than they are for fighters.

Rutee
2008-04-17, 08:54 PM
And those maneuvers aren't class features for the warblade anymore than they are for fighters.

You're kidding, right? A Warblade gets stances for levelling up. For /existing/. A Warblade will get the ability to use 2 stances, even, and that's pretty much completely unique.

How's that /not/ more of a class feature then the potential to pick up one stance with a feat? Especially since, as has been shown, if a Fighter gets 3 Maneuvers and a couple of stances from Feats, he only has a 1 feat advantage on a Warblade.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 09:54 PM
You're kidding, right? A Warblade gets stances for levelling up. For /existing/.

Rutee, you win the internet for tonight. For some reason, the "existing" statement is making my laugh non-stop.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 10:12 PM
You're kidding, right? A Warblade gets stances for levelling up. For /existing/.

But not ones that let him fly or dimension door, which are the two that Azerion thinks are so awesome.

Rutee
2008-04-17, 10:15 PM
But he can choose those. In fact, I think ti's logical to say that they'd be expected to take a Flying stance, considering how critical it is in general. Dim. Door, perhaps not.

It's certainly a far more natural choice then, you know. The Fighter Optimization ongoing. But then, I'll grant that if every half-decent fighter class feature was in one book, they'd be more natural too.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-17, 10:32 PM
But he can choose those. In fact, I think ti's logical to say that they'd be expected to take a Flying stance, considering how critical it is in general. Dim. Door, perhaps not.

No it's not. It's an incredibly unlikely and poor choice. For starters he isn't going to be able to attack at all while walking on air unless he specializes in two handing a one handed weapon. Secondly, the idea that a Warblade is more likely to take Martial Study/Stance then a Fighter who gets them as bonus feats and has a wider selection of stances to choose from and doesn't have to give up a stance to be in said stance is pretty stretching it.

Da Beast
2008-04-18, 01:27 AM
That's an exception to the usual rule that you are your own ally.

How you figure? It's not outlined in the book as such, and customer service has ruled that it can be used on yourself.

The Mormegil
2008-04-18, 02:38 AM
Has anyone suggested the Combat Rythm cheese? Or getting Martial Study -> Counter CHarge from Setting Sun (no prereq 1st level good manoeuvre against charges)?

Now, for the second, it's self-explanatory. For the first:
Step 1) Get +6 bab and Ironheart Aura useless feat. Than take Stormguard Warrior.
Step 2) Get the usual AoO combo (robillar's gambit, karmic strike, maybe Thicket of Blades stance w/ Martial Stance, Sweeping Strike, Defensive Rebuke, what have you: choose your cocktail)
Step 3) Use your reach weapon + Counter Charge (boost your Dex check out of the roof, force the mount) to get as many AoOs on the rider as you can. Use Stormguard Warrior and refrain from all of them.
Step 4) Quicksilver Motion + Avalanche of Blades. Use Stormguard warrior: touch attacks.
Step 5) he attacks you, you attack him for more damage.
Step 6) ????
Step 7) Win.

Traya
2008-04-18, 04:56 AM
Also remember you can make use of stances such as Wolverines stance to get past those pesky grapple fighters. other things to note

1. Ironheart stances such as Dancing blade form which gives you a +5ft range increment on your turn , and Absolute steel stance which gives you a bonus on +10ft speed.
2. Dont worry about armor , with 3000gp and at level 20 its going to be cake to hit someone and be hit back. Chances are you wont get a high enough AC. (I could be wrong.)
3. Make use of feats such as Spring attack , if you couldnt get your boost off or since you can only use it once per encounter this will help you not get a AoO provoke from moving.
4. Ironheart Endurance gives you initiator level x2 hp as a swift action. Not bad for when you are low on hp.
5. Use readied actions!!!! I cannot stress how utterly and completely useless Overpowering Attack is when they can't even use it against you. IT states that the effect of overpowering attack ends at the start of the initiator's ( of overpowering attack) next turn and a readied action takes place right before any action they use. Heres an example.

Fighter prepares Overpowering Attack and hits you waiting for AoO's.
You take a standard waiting action.
On Fighters next turn when he moves , attack , does anything use your standard attack with anything from White Raven Hammer, Mountain tombstone strike , or Strike of perfect clarity , among any other standard action attacks. Make that fighter CRY that he tried that on you.

If you combine some smart tactics , with stances such as wolverine stance , absolute steel stance , and counters to block charges it should be completley simple to smash any fighter's face in. All you need is protection from there 3 big things. AoOs , grappling , charging. With one stance (wolverine stance) grappling is pretty useless since you can Strike of perfect clarity them in the face with the stance (dont take it if you use unarmed strikes since you can already do that anyway). AoO's are easily countered with earlier stated abilities ( Spring Attack , Covering strike , Waited actions , reach (with Dancing blade form you will always meet or exceed a fighters threat range on your turn.) All you need is a good solid defense against charging and you have this fight in the bag.

And yes a Warblade can do all that in the same build.

6.Also Pouncing charge will bring you into the fray quite quickly.
7. Last one I can think of before I pass out is to also try and have a natural high dex , Im willing to say that if a Warblade goes first , the fighters chances of winning really only rely on if he can critically hit you.

I hope that helps you so get out there and show him what Warblades are made of!

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-18, 06:15 AM
Or getting Martial Study -> Counter CHarge from Setting Sun

Yes, in fact it has already been established that every Warblade every takes Matrial Study 3 times always getting that plus whatever else he needs, Martial Stance once or twice for Swordsage stances, and four feats to extend his reach, and also takes every single feat the fighter takes.

Man those Warblades sure are versatile. They even turn into Raptorans as soon as their opponents start flying.

Oslecamo
2008-04-18, 07:41 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Really? Check the maneuver list again. A stance lets you fly, another one do a mini dimdoor indefinetely.


O'rrly? Whitout martial study, warblades can only learn Iron Heart, White Raven, Diamond mind or Tiger claw, none of wich have the superntatural DD or flying maneuvers/stances.

So far, let's see what the warblade needs to win:

-From Artanis, the warblade gets a free spellcaster cohort that will cast air walck in the Warblade and then shoot save or dies at the fighter.

-From Azerian Kelimon, the warblade can pick martial study but the figther can't.

-From Rutee, the warblade gets all the stances in the game. Active at the same time. Whitout sacrificing anything. And the fighter is totally forbidden from choosing a good combination of feats, because "it isn't natural".

Wow, it's almost as the whole duel isn't totally biased against the fighter or anything like that.

Again, if the warblade is so good, why you're imposing so much anti fighter rules?

Worira
2008-04-18, 09:12 AM
Actually, I suggested Raptoran before the fighter started flying.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-18, 09:20 AM
I think the most important thing to note is that Warblades are vastly more fun to play than fighters. Regardless of whether they're more powerful or not.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 09:31 AM
Let us try to not get this thread locked ok? I've always thought Raptorans are a good idea. Non-magical flight is nothing to sneeze at. And a +8 (or was it +10?) racial jump check? Cool!

Air-walking is reserved for when you can get a boots of air-walking, which is not possible under the rules of this challenge I guess since it's not a DMG item. But yeah, Stunning then becomes better. If you make someone drop their weapon, he now has to fly all the way down to the ground to get it, or draw another weapon