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Zocelot
2008-04-15, 06:11 PM
I was wondering if there were any good ways to get by Transcend Mortality.

The benefits are
DR 30/epic
Spell Resistance 21+CL
Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, and Sonic resistance 50
Immunity to ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison and death affects
No need to eat drink or breath

For those of you who don't own Complete Mage, this spell is balanced, because at the end you die without a save.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 06:15 PM
What if I'm a lich?
I die, but I get better.
I can't call that balanced.
Poor Splatbooks.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-15, 06:17 PM
A week or so back I created a thread with the idea of combining Transcend Mortality and Emerald Immolation of the Jade Phoenix Mage... since you're technically dead when you use the emerald immolation, it's possible you don't trigger the transcend mortality's death... only to reform 1d6 rounds later fully healed. :smallbiggrin:

Moff Chumley
2008-04-15, 06:19 PM
Interesting. What's the duration?

Isomenes
2008-04-15, 07:24 PM
It's Wu Jen 9, lasting rds/level. So the duration is going to be a minimum of 17 rounds. I dunno, it's still possible to use resurrect to bring back the caster, which is less than difficult at these levels.

The_Snark
2008-04-15, 07:34 PM
Possibly Archmage?

Get Transcend Mortality as a spell-like ability via the archmage ability, then use Body Outside Body. Your duplicates have your class abilities, so they should have Transcend Mortality as well.

monty
2008-04-15, 07:51 PM
Be friends with an epic cleric with Ignore Material Components. Then get him to cast True Resurrection on you after every battle.

Zocelot
2008-04-15, 08:17 PM
If know I can abuse this spell, but in a normal casting can I bypass it?

And I'd use a scroll of Contingent Resurection if I were trying to abuse it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 08:20 PM
How does Transcend Mortality interact with Timeless Body (psion power, can get it 1/day on a shield for +5 enhancement).


Your body ignores all harmful (and helpful) effects, beginning when you finish manifesting this power and ending at the end of your next turn. While timeless body is in effect, you are invulnerable to all attacks and powers.

I would certainly call dieing from Transcend Mortality to be a harmful effect. Oh, and for extra fun Persist Transcend Mortality (Wu Gen/ Incantatrix/ Archamge is fun).

The_Snark
2008-04-15, 08:25 PM
I'd say that Transcend Mortality's clause that it cannot be prevented by any means bypasses Timeless Body. So would backlash damage from epic spells.

Persisted transcend mortality would indeed be nifty on the day of the final battle against a campaign's climactic enemy.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-15, 08:35 PM
I'd say that Transcend Mortality's clause that it cannot be prevented by any means bypasses Timeless Body. So would backlash damage from epic spells.
Why? You aren't preventing the dieing or the backlash damage. You are ignoring it.

Douglas
2008-04-15, 09:05 PM
If you want to split hairs like that...

Ok, your body ignores the fact that you have been killed. It stops ignoring this fact when Timeless Body expires. In fact, since all effects are ignored rather than prevented, you have to deal with the consequences of everything that happened to you while under Timeless Body when it expires - or gets dispelled, it provides no protection to itself.

Chronos
2008-04-15, 09:49 PM
Why do they bother including "don't need to eat or drink" when it only lasts 1 round/level?

And before anyone suggests Dispel Magic, a dispelled spell acts just like one whose duration has expired. That would pretty well suck, actually, to get hit by a Greater Dispel immediately after you cast this.

What about an antimagic field?

kamikasei
2008-04-16, 05:15 AM
For those of you who don't own Complete Mage, this spell is balanced, because at the end you die without a save.

I'm not sure I'd call that balance.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-16, 05:28 AM
"I AM A GOD. ALL TREMBLE BEFORE MY WRATH. TOUCH ME UNDEAD. GO AHEAD. I AM UNSTOPPABLE. ABILITY DAMAGE IS NYE."

"Greater Dispel!!"

"RATS."

Zocelot
2008-04-16, 07:18 AM
The spell is balanced, because at the end you die. I don't see what could be worse then dying.

If death is so unimportant that it doesn't balance being invincible for 2 minutes (unless someone casts Greater Dispel Magic), then can anyone tell me what would balance nigh-invincibility?

kamikasei
2008-04-16, 07:26 AM
The spell is balanced, because at the end you die. I don't see what could be worse then dying.

That just makes it a spell that can only be used once per character. Its benefit is balanced against its cost. It's not balanced against other spells, or abilities in general, such that none is clearly better in more circumstances. Actually, it's underpowered or underbalanced, in that you will almost always want to use another spell of the same level rather than resort to it.

Armads
2008-04-16, 07:34 AM
It's horrendously weak. One disjunction and you instantly die. Not sure if your equipment makes the save after you die, or before though.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-16, 07:40 AM
Cast it on the BBEG... then Dismiss it next round. Insta-kill!

senrath
2008-04-16, 08:40 AM
Cast it on the BBEG... then Dismiss it next round. Insta-kill!

I might be wrong, but I think you can only cast it on yourself.

Person_Man
2008-04-16, 09:03 AM
The range is Personal. So you can't cast it on someone else.

It's nice to see the Wu Jen get some love. Seriously, who plays Wu Jen?

Anywho, I think that the real benefit of the spell is that its an Immediate Action. So just as you're about to die anyway, save yourself for a few rounds, win combat, and then eat the cost of Resurrection or True Resurrection.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-16, 09:03 AM
That just makes it a spell that can only be used once per character. Its benefit is balanced against its cost. It's not balanced against other spells, or abilities in general, such that none is clearly better in more circumstances. Actually, it's underpowered or underbalanced, in that you will almost always want to use another spell of the same level rather than resort to it.

Technically, you might want to cast it during the Final Battle, or if you've got a good reason to believe that you'll die anyway.

kamikasei
2008-04-16, 01:44 PM
Technically, you might want to cast it during the Final Battle, or if you've got a good reason to believe that you'll die anyway.

Yeah - making it a once-per-character spell which you will virtually never want to cast in place of a different spell of the same level. So in other words it's not all that balanced.


Anywho, I think that the real benefit of the spell is that its an Immediate Action. So just as you're about to die anyway, save yourself for a few rounds, win combat, and then eat the cost of Resurrection or True Resurrection.

This is an interesting point. Being able to use it when you're already about to die makes it a tad more worthwhile all right.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-16, 02:20 PM
This is an interesting point. Being able to use it when you're already about to die makes it a tad more worthwhile all right.

Actually, it really isn't that good when you know you are going to die, it gives you a bunch of defenses, but it doesn't do anything to boost you from before you cast it. So if you are at 1HP, and need to hold off, you better hope no one can do 51HP of damage.

I think it should heal the caster and remove any other impairments upon casting. I mean, they are going to die anyway, might as well help them out for their last 20 rounds.

Fixer
2008-04-17, 08:21 AM
The range is Personal. So you can't cast it on someone else.
Actually, if they have the Acquire Familiar feat, they can.

"Renny, my loyal familiar, I make you INVULNERABLE LIKE A GOD for the next 20 rounds. Go kill them!"

*Renny flies off, dies 20 rounds later*

"Didn't like that familiar anyway."

senrath
2008-04-17, 08:28 AM
Actually, if they have the Acquire Familiar feat, they can.

"Renny, my loyal familiar, I make you INVULNERABLE LIKE A GOD for the next 20 rounds. Go kill them!"

*Renny flies off, dies 20 rounds later*

"Didn't like that familiar anyway."

And then they lose a whole bunch of experience, since I'm pretty sure that penalty applies to anyone with a familiar, not just sorcerers and wizards :P

TheCountAlucard
2008-04-17, 08:37 AM
Not to mention not being able to get a new familiar for a year and a day...

Douglas
2008-04-17, 10:48 AM
The range is Personal. So you can't cast it on someone else.
Spoken like a non-optimizer. Tell that to the Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Archmage 1 with Arcane Reach and a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell.
Spellguard of Silverymoon is in Player's Guide to Faerun. The 4th level ability of the class gives the ability to cast Personal range "defensive" spells at touch range instead. "Defensive" is explicitly defined for that ability, and Transcend Mortality easily qualifies. Transcend Mortality is also dismissable. Do I need to explain the rest?

RTGoodman
2008-04-17, 10:55 AM
Spoken like a non-optimizer. Tell that to the Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Archmage 1 with Arcane Reach and a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell.
Spellguard of Silverymoon is in Player's Guide to Faerun. The 4th level ability of the class gives the ability to cast Personal range "defensive" spells at touch range instead. "Defensive" is explicitly defined for that ability, and Transcend Mortality easily qualifies. Transcend Mortality is also dismissable. Do I need to explain the rest?

And now there just needs to be a way to work in a contingent explosion (though not necessarily with contingency or Craft Contingent Spell). So, you know, you turn your enemy into an unstoppable killing machine, and then blow him up the next round by simply dismissing the spell.

Frosty
2008-04-17, 11:07 AM
Would Revivify work on someone who just tied from TM? It'd be something cool to have on a Contingency.

Hyozo
2008-04-17, 11:23 AM
Would Revivify work on someone who just tied from TM? It'd be something cool to have on a Contingency.

Nope, revivify functions like raise dead, which wouldn't work because Trancend Mortality disintigrates the user when it kills them. (I think, I haven't read that spell recently.)

Douglas
2008-04-17, 12:56 PM
Correct, the remains left after Transcend Mortality ends are not sufficient for a Raise Dead or Revivify to work. Death Pact works just fine, though, with no more cost than Revivify, a much better effect (duplicates True Resurrection), and with the contingent effect built into the spell rather than requiring Contingency. The only problem is the -2 con penalty.


So, you know, you turn your enemy into an unstoppable killing machine, and then blow him up the next round by simply dismissing the spell.
No need to wait for the next round - Transcend Mortality has a casting time of an immediate action. You can spend your swift action on casting it and then dismiss it with your standard action in the same turn. Yes, that's up to 21 enemies dead in one round with no save and no SR. All you have to do is make the ranged touch attack on each one.

_Zoot_
2008-04-17, 07:34 PM
No need to wait for the next round - Transcend Mortality has a casting time of an immediate action. You can spend your swift action on casting it and then dismiss it with your standard action in the same turn. Yes, that's up to 21 enemies dead in one round with no save and no SR. All you have to do is make the ranged touch attack on each one.


Mmmmmmmm....

KA-BOOM!

Thats just mean:smallbiggrin:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 01:36 AM
I was wondering if there were any good ways to get by Transcend Mortality.

The benefits are
DR 30/epic
Spell Resistance 21+CL
Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, and Sonic resistance 50
Immunity to ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison and death affects
No need to eat drink or breath

For those of you who don't own Complete Mage, this spell is balanced, because at the end you die without a save.

Best way I know is to use a Wujen -3 / Binder -1 Anima Mage - 10, X- 6 and persist the spell with Vestige Metamagic and cast it again before 24 hours pass since each new casting protects the PC from death effects.

Divine Meta could do the trick.

It would depend on the game if it could be cast on undead and how the mechanics would interact with an undead PC.

There are a few spells that Raise Dead or Ressurrect PCs when they die. Ressurrection is a Intelligent Weapon DMG special power usable 1/month for 200,000 gp.

Soul Locked template from Herroes of Horror could work.

Teflammer Shadowlord - 6 Shadow Discorporation could bypass it. (Probably require a gestalt game)

The psionic power Fiery Discorporation should be able to do the trick if an open flame withing range. With transparency rules the power should be able to be duplicated with magic.

Ring of 9 lives might do it.

ToB has the Jade Phoenix PRC which could do the trick via Emerald Immolation.

Sure there are more ways to bypass the spell in game.

The_Snark
2008-04-18, 02:10 AM
The death at the end of the spell isn't actually a death effect, so it wouldn't protect from itself. Nor would being undead, or having Death Ward, stop it from affecting you.

Lichhood is a nice way of getting around any long-term consequences, though. Yes, yes... I'll be seeing you all in 1d10 days.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 09:41 AM
The death at the end of the spell isn't actually a death effect, so it wouldn't protect from itself.

I disagree, it is a death effect since the Transcend Mortality spell normally kills the PC at the conclusion of the spell. As written there is to much gray in the Transcend Mortality spell.

An active Transcend Mortality spell makes the PC Immune to death effects. The PC does not need to make a save against an effect he is Immune to while the spell is in effect.

Now if the designer had specified in the spell that a subsequent casting of Transcend Mortality was ineffective against the Transcend Mortality death effect of an earlier casting or immediately killed the PC there would be nothing to disagree about.

IMO this is a bad spell that shouldn't have been introduced into the game in the first place as written but it was so now DMs and Players who let it into their game get to decide on how the spell as written works when interacting with subsequent castings of Transcend Mortality.

IMO a subsequent casting of the spell trumps an earlier casting making the PC unkillable and immune to death effects (Transcend Mortality doesn't limit those death effect immunities to Necromantic or Transmutation death effects it is a blanket immunity).

All I am saying is a subsequent casting of Transcend Mortality delays the death effect. Unfortunately there are ways in game to really postpone it mechanically. Similar to the PC life force being a quart of water and the Transcend Mortality spell being a pitcher holding the life force.

Transcend Mortality is a level 9 spell transmutation spell. Ressurrection a conjuration level 7 spell trumps it.

Normally the spell is limited to 1 round a level for it's duration with comparatively few ways of extending that duration in game due to spell meta rules. Anima Mage Vestige magic is one possible way.

IMO most DMs would let a PC cast Transcend Mortality in succession fighting the BBEG normally due to the specific benefits of the spell:

Immunity to ability damage, disease, energy drain, poison and death effects.

before the spell closes with "although this spell makes you unkillable for the duration before finally closing with "when the spell ends, you are instantly slain and reduced to a pile of ashes. This effect allows no save and can't be prevented by any means, you can be resurrected normally.

So if a PC casts the Transcend Mortality spell before the active Transcend Mortality casting ends, the Transcend Mortality spell is still active which makes the PC unkillable since the spell has ended but it also hasn't really ended since it is still in effective.

Now if you would let a PC fail by not allowing him or her to cast it a subsequent time against a major BBEG in your campaign then it won't work in your campaign but that standard doesn't necessarily apply in all games. Any game that allows a subsequent casting opens the door. Not many PCs can be built to take advantage of that loophole.

RTGoodman
2008-04-18, 10:06 AM
I disagree, it is a death effect since the Transcend Mortality spell normally kills the PC at the conclusion of the spell.

I don't know about the rest of your post, but I'm pretty sure the quoted statement is wrong. D&D has a very specific definition of what a death effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks) (or attack) is, and all of the ones that are death effects are, as far as I know, labeled as such. The Pyromancer's ability to kill people by boiling their blood (or whatever) can kill them instantly, but it isn't (technically) a Death Effect. The Death Domain's death touch granted power, though, says "Your death touch is a supernatural ability that produces a death effect." The same thing is said about slaying arrows and several other things.

Unless the spell description for transcend mortality says it's a death effect (or if it has the [Death] descriptor, I guess), it isn't technically a death effect.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 10:09 AM
I don't know about the rest of your post, but I'm pretty sure the quoted statement is wrong. D&D has a very specific definition of what a death effect is, and all of the ones that are death effects are, as far as I know, labeled as such. The Pyromancer's ability to kill people by boiling their blood (or whatever) can kill them instantly, but it isn't (technically) a Death Effect. The Death Domain's death touch granted power, though, says "Your death touch is a supernatural ability that produces a death effect." The same thing is said about slaying arrows and several other things.

Unless the spell description for transcend mortality says it's a death effect (or if it has the [Death] descriptor, I guess), it isn't technically a death effect.

I disagree quoted from the spell "When the spell ends you are instantly slain"

How is that not a death effect killing the PC?

Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.

Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.
The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.

Chronos
2008-04-18, 10:35 AM
When I use a Fireball against a first-level kobold, it's instantly slain, too. Does that make Fireball a death effect?

A death effect is a thing that says it's a death effect. This is not a difficult thing to figure out on a case-by-case basis. If it says it's a death effect (either by saying "this is a death effect", or by including the [death] descriptor), it's a death effect. Otherwise, it's not.

Anyway, even if it were a death effect, the Anima Mage trick still wouldn't be too great. You'd need to cast the new spell before the old one wore out, which means less than 24 hours later. But Vestige Metamagic is only usable 1/day, so sooner or later, you'd run out of Persists before you ran out of duration.

senrath
2008-04-18, 10:39 AM
Besides, doesn't Transcend Mortality have a clause that says that nothing can prevent the death? As such, wouldn't a second casting fail to prevent the first from killing you?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 11:09 AM
A death effect is a thing that says it's a death effect. This is not a difficult thing to figure out on a case-by-case basis. If it says it's a death effect (either by saying "this is a death effect", or by including the [death] descriptor), it's a death effect. Otherwise, it's not.

Anyway, even if it were a death effect, the Anima Mage trick still wouldn't be too great. You'd need to cast the new spell before the old one wore out, which means less than 24 hours later. But Vestige Metamagic is only usable 1/day, so sooner or later, you'd run out of Persists before you ran out of duration.

The Transcend Mortality spell is saying it's a death effect slaying the PC instantly at the end of the spell "When the spell ends you are instantly slain"

I disagree the Anima metamagic trick is great with the Persistent spell feat from Complete Arcane (24 hours) since it is usable 3/day not once page 51 of ToM.



Besides, doesn't Transcend Mortality have a clause that says that nothing can prevent the death? As such, wouldn't a second casting fail to prevent the first from killing you?

Yes it has a poorly written clause. No it would only delay the spell from killing you. However there are a few builds that can capitalize on that.

Person_Man
2008-04-18, 11:12 AM
Spoken like a non-optimizer. Tell that to the Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Archmage 1 with Arcane Reach and a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell.
Spellguard of Silverymoon is in Player's Guide to Faerun. The 4th level ability of the class gives the ability to cast Personal range "defensive" spells at touch range instead. "Defensive" is explicitly defined for that ability, and Transcend Mortality easily qualifies. Transcend Mortality is also dismissable. Do I need to explain the rest?

Point conceded. Though I find it funny that I'm being accused of being a non-optimizer.

Of course, the Spellguard ability specifically works "on another character with a touch." So maybe the best application is to Dominate someone and then cast it on them?

FinalJustice
2008-04-18, 11:15 AM
Could a bajillionaire Artificer do a Continuous Transcend Mortality item? If the spell never ends, the subject never dies. Taking the item off would be a lousy idea, though...

GammaPaladin
2008-04-18, 12:17 PM
Disjunction would suck too.

But even without special abilities that let you cast personal range spells on others... You can always make an item of it and have your party's diplomancer trick the BBEG into putting it on...

Douglas
2008-04-18, 01:29 PM
The Transcend Mortality spell is saying it's a death effect slaying the PC instantly at the end of the spell "When the spell ends you are instantly slain"
All death effects are things that kill you instantly. Not all things that kill you instantly are death effects.

There is a reason the [death] descriptor exists. Its purpose is to label things that are, in fact, death effects. Spells that lack that descriptor are not death effects no matter what they do unless the spell description specifically states that they are, including the words "death effect" or "death attack" (and possibly a few other variations). Simply causing death is not sufficient.


Yes it has a poorly written clause. No it would only delay the spell from killing you. However there are a few builds that can capitalize on that.
It is not delaying the death, it is preventing it and then incidentally killing you later. The death is explicitly impossible to prevent, and Transcend Mortality has no wording that would enable it to overcome that clause any better than Death Ward.

The_Snark
2008-04-18, 02:35 PM
The Transcend Mortality spell is saying it's a death effect slaying the PC instantly at the end of the spell "When the spell ends you are instantly slain"

Like Douglas says, it's only a [Death] effect if it has that descriptor. If it doesn't, it is not a death effect even if it kills you. Implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm), for example, will kill you, but it is not a death effect; neither Death Ward nor Transcend Mortality would help you if you failed that save. Contrast with Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm), which has the [Death] descriptor.

If a death effect were simply any magic that killed you, Death Ward would be way more powerful; it would protect against Implosion, Phantasmal Killer, and arguably any spell that deals enough damage to kill you.

The Anima Mage is still pretty nice, though—Persistent Transcend Mortality is a great trick to use on the day of the final battle. And it's not like it doesn't have other uses on days when you aren't desperately battling to save the world.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 06:30 PM
Like Douglas says, it's only a [Death] effect if it has that descriptor. If it doesn't, it is not a death effect even if it kills you. Implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm), for example, will kill you, but it is not a death effect; neither Death Ward nor Transcend Mortality would help you if you failed that save. Contrast with Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm), which has the [Death] descriptor.

If a death effect were simply any magic that killed you, Death Ward would be way more powerful; it would protect against Implosion, Phantasmal Killer, and arguably any spell that deals enough damage to kill you.

The Anima Mage is still pretty nice, though—Persistent Transcend Mortality is a great trick to use on the day of the final battle. And it's not like it doesn't have other uses on days when you aren't desperately battling to save the world.

I concede you, douglas and Chronos have made some very valid points I disagree about it being a Death Effect because of the way the spell is worded, the no save which certain death effects have and the fact that Reincarnation does not work against the spell like any other death effect it requires the Resurrection spell mechanic or better to raise the PC.

If I am killed by a Fireball or Implosion Reincarnation will work if I want to come back because it is not a death effect. If I am killed by a Finger of Death spell (Death effect) I cannot be reincarnated or brought back to life with the raise dead spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm

A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.

The_Snark
2008-04-18, 06:39 PM
True, but that's because the remains were destroyed. You can't revive a Disintegrated character with Raise Dead, either, and that isn't a death effect. (And actually, I think you could Reincarnate a character who died from casting Transcend Mortality; the dust left behind does count as a tiny portion of the body for the purposes of resurrection and such spells, and since Transcend Mortality doesn't say it's a death effect there's no reason it wouldn't work.)

I suppose you could make an argument for houseruling it as a death effect, but I suspect the reason it isn't is to avoid abuses like using it in conjunction with persisted Death Wards or Soulfire armor. Mechanically, it isn't a death effect, and the spell is much more balanced if the death is a non-death effect.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 06:47 PM
IMO the remains were destroyed so Raise Dead couldn't work and the spell was worded strangely so Death Ward wouldn't work either.

Reincarnate still works if a PC is killed by a Disintegrate spell or effect.

Transcend Mortality turns the body to ashes but specifically states the PC can be resurrected normally afterwards.

Time to see Doctor Who.

Douglas
2008-04-18, 09:40 PM
Transcend Mortality turns the body to ashes but specifically states the PC can be resurrected normally afterwards.
Transcend Mortality turns the body to ashes as disintegrate. Anything that can bring back a disintegrated character can bring back someone who died from Transcend Mortality.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 10:49 PM
Transcend Mortality turns the body to ashes as disintegrate. Anything that can bring back a disintegrated character can bring back someone who died from Transcend Mortality.

I disagree that is not what the spell says:

Although this spell makes you effectively unkillable for the duration, that comes at a horrorific price. You gain these benefits by using up your remaining life force. When the spell ends, you are instantly slain and reduced to a pile of dust (as disintegrate). This effect allows no save and can't be prevented by any means, though you can be resurrected normally afterwards.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm

Interestingly IMO is disintegration normally allows a saving throw. Transcend Mortality does not allow a saving throw like certain death effects. Death effects require resurrection reincarnation and raise dead are ineffective.

Douglas
2008-04-18, 10:53 PM
So it says Resurrection works. How does this automatically imply that Resurrection is the only thing that works?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 11:19 PM
So it says Resurrection works. How does this automatically imply that Resurrection is the only thing that works?

It doesn't. Reincarnation is not Resurrection.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-18, 11:21 PM
So to sum up Castlemike:

Does Reincarnation work on Transcend Mortality?

1) Transcend Mortality is a death effect.
2) Death effects don't allow reincarnation.
3) Therefore Transcend Mortality doesn't allow Reincarnation.

Question 2: Is Transcend Mortality a death effect?

1) It slays you instantly.
2) Not all things that slay instantly are death effects.
3) If it does not allow Reincarnation it must be a death effect.
4) Transcend Mortality does not allow Reincarnation.
5) Therefore, Transcend Mortality is a death effect.

Collin152
2008-04-18, 11:26 PM
Hooray for circular reasoning!

Douglas
2008-04-19, 01:07 AM
It doesn't. Reincarnation is not Resurrection.
??? I'm having trouble figuring out whether you mean that Reincarnation does, or does not, work.

Reincarnate requires touching the dead creature to be reincarnated, but otherwise does not care about the condition of the remains. The pile of dust left by Disintegrate is sufficient. Reincarnate does require that the creature not have been killed by a death effect, but Disintegrate is not a death effect so Reincarnate can bring back a Disintegrated character. Transcend Mortality is also not a death effect and leaves sufficient remains to touch, so Reincarnate also works for characters killed by it.

Raise Dead has the additional requirement that the remains be whole. A pile of dust does not qualify, so Raise Dead doesn't work for Disintegrated creatures or creatures killed by Transcend Mortality.

CthulhuM
2008-04-19, 01:49 AM
It seems to me like Pact of Return (from Heroes of Horror) would be ideal for this. It functions like resurrection, but contingent on your death (and instantaneous) and with no level loss. The only catch is that you have to specify ahead of time the conditions of your death (how you're going to die or who's going to kill you, for example), and that, obviously, shouldn't be a problem in this case.

The only real trouble is finding a way to cast both 9th level wu jen spells and 7th level cleric spells, but I'm sure it's doable. Arcane Disciple with the Spite domain would work, for starters.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-19, 01:52 AM
The spell has an unusual effect in game and an unusual writeup regarding it's mechanics. IMO the spell seems to be written to side step the Death Ward spell effects by not actually labeling them death effects or making the Transcend Mortality spell a clear exception to the Death Ward death effect rules.

I say the Reincarnation spell does not work for restoring life after the Transcend Mortality spell kills the PC. If Reincarnation worked there would have been no need to specify Resurrection in the spell write up for restoring life to a deceased PC killed by the ending of the Transcend Mortality spell.

The_Snark
2008-04-19, 02:02 AM
The spell has an unusual effect in game and an unusual writeup regarding it's mechanics. IMO the spell seems to be written to side step the Death Ward spell effects by not actually labeling them death effects or making the Transcend Mortality spell a clear exception to the Death Ward death effect rules.

Well, yes. They don't make it a death effect, because they don't want you to be able to sidestep it with something as simple as Death Ward. There's no reason it should be a death effect, except to make it bypassable with Death Ward or the undead type. Some things which kill you aren't death effects, so there's a precedent.

Myself, I think they need some clearly defined sacrifice rules for things like this (as well as the hellfire warlock and backlash damage from epic spells). That way, they'd be consistent, and they would be able to check one set of rules every time they introduced an ability that potentially provides a loophole.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-19, 04:44 AM
It doesn't matter how you interpret the intent of it... As written it allows reincarnation, because it's effects meet the requirements of that spell, and it doesn't specifically disallow it. Therefore it is allowed. End of story.

Zocelot
2008-04-19, 07:08 AM
It seems to me like Pact of Return (from Heroes of Horror) would be ideal for this. It functions like resurrection, but contingent on your death (and instantaneous) and with no level loss. The only catch is that you have to specify ahead of time the conditions of your death (how you're going to die or who's going to kill you, for example), and that, obviously, shouldn't be a problem in this case.

The only real trouble is finding a way to cast both 9th level wu jen spells and 7th level cleric spells, but I'm sure it's doable. Arcane Disciple with the Spite domain would work, for starters.

Mystic Theurge would work. Cleric 3, Wu jen 7, Mystic Theurge 10
Access to level 7 Cleric spells and level 9 Wu Jen spells.

RTGoodman
2008-04-19, 10:07 AM
Mystic Theurge would work. Cleric 3, Wu jen 7, Mystic Theurge 10
Access to level 7 Cleric spells and level 9 Wu Jen spells.

Wait - Mystic Theurge is useful for something?! :smalleek:

Well, I guess the downside is that it could end up being a one-trick pony build, and once you start using it in every encounter your DM would come up with some counter for it (including bad effects from too many resurrection-type spells ).

Also, quick question. Don't Wu Jen also have access to that giant size spell that can eventually make you Colossal? Grab a Metamagic Rod of Quicken, and then you can basically begin an encounter as a nearly-immortal skyscraper-sized spellcaster.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 12:12 PM
More then that. You are a Cleric 13/Wu-Jen 17, that's a melee monster if I've ever heard of one.

Take Alternative Spell Source and DMM:

Giant Size/Transcend Mortality/Diviner Power/ect.

And then of course cast Pact of Return on yourself. Now at the end of the day, you die, but in the mean time, you kill everything in sight.

RTGoodman
2008-04-19, 12:26 PM
More then that. You are a Cleric 13/Wu-Jen 17, that's a melee monster if I've ever heard of one.

Take Alternative Spell Source and DMM:

Giant Size/Transcend Mortality/Diviner Power/ect.

And then of course cast Pact of Return on yourself. Now at the end of the day, you die, but in the mean time, you kill everything in sight.

And unless it's been errata'd, can't you use DMM to persist any spell you can cast? With enough nightsticks (theoretically - it's stinky, stinky cheese) you could persist all the standard ClericZilla buffs (divine power, righteous might, etc.) along with giant size (since it's a bigger size increase than the Cleric buffs, you'd keep its size but any other buffs' different benefits, right?), transcend mortality, and any other Wu Jen buffs, too (as if you needed them).

Zocelot
2008-04-19, 01:29 PM
More then that. You are a Cleric 13/Wu-Jen 17, that's a melee monster if I've ever heard of one.

Take Alternative Spell Source and DMM:

Giant Size/Transcend Mortality/Diviner Power/ect.

And then of course cast Pact of Return on yourself. Now at the end of the day, you die, but in the mean time, you kill everything in sight.

Wait, why do you die? Isn't the point of Pact of Return that you DON'T die? At least not for very long.

Chronos
2008-04-19, 01:30 PM
And unless it's been errata'd, can't you use DMM to persist any spell you can cast?It has been errataed to only work on divine spells, but that's what the Alternative Spell Source is for. The downside is that you wouldn't be able to fit in most enclosed spaces like dungeons, but on the other hand, you could very easily make those spaces just not be enclosed any more :smallbiggrin: .

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 01:39 PM
Wait, why do you die? Isn't the point of Pact of Return that you DON'T die? At least not for very long.

As I understand it, Pact of Return is where you specify exactly how you are going to die, and then when you die you are raised as if by True Resurrection, but without the cost in Diamonds.

Douglas
2008-04-19, 02:14 PM
I say the Reincarnation spell does not work for restoring life after the Transcend Mortality spell kills the PC. If Reincarnation worked there would have been no need to specify Resurrection in the spell write up for restoring life to a deceased PC killed by the ending of the Transcend Mortality spell.
Or maybe they just meant the general category of resurrection-type effects, possibly with Resurrection being the example of the lowest level version of the most commonly used series of such spells that works. I think the purpose of that sentence is to clarify that bringing the character back from the dead is possible by the usual means despite the unavoidable and willing nature of the death, not to specifically limit how it can be done.


Wait, why do you die? Isn't the point of Pact of Return that you DON'T die? At least not for very long.
The point of Pact of Return is that you don't stay dead. It does nothing to prevent death, it just reverses it immediately.

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 02:16 PM
More then that. You are a Cleric 13/Wu-Jen 17, that's a melee monster if I've ever heard of one.

Take Alternative Spell Source and DMM:

Giant Size/Transcend Mortality/Diviner Power/ect.

And then of course cast Pact of Return on yourself. Now at the end of the day, you die, but in the mean time, you kill everything in sight.

That is just awesome. Go giant theurge go.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-19, 07:17 PM
The point of Pact of Return is that you don't stay dead. It does nothing to prevent death, it just reverses it immediately."Aren't you dead?"

"I got better."

Collin152
2008-04-19, 07:23 PM
"Aren't you dead?"

"I got better."

"I thought you were dead."
"It's possible that I can't die."
Said in a very conversational tone.

Zocelot
2008-04-19, 08:41 PM
It turned me into a pile of ashes!
A pile of ashes?!?
I got better...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-19, 08:45 PM
I would like to point out that if the cornerstone of your strategy involves your own death, you may need to re-plan.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 08:53 PM
I would like to point out that if the cornerstone of your strategy involves your own death, you may need to re-plan.

Tell it to Jade Pheonix Mage.

FinalJustice
2008-04-19, 09:02 PM
And tell him to find somewhere to hide too. Seriously, a colossal indestructible WuKungFuCleric'zilla o' doom who rises from the ashes every night would put any JPM to shame in the 'I rise from the ashes to kick your arse' department.

By the way, wouldn't Ur-Priest fit this build either?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-19, 09:02 PM
With Transparency the psionic Fiery Discorporation power as a spell just make sure there is an open flame nearby.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 09:05 PM
With Transparency the psionic Fiery Discorporation power as a spell just make sure there is an open flame nearby.

An adventurer not near an open flame?
What kind of games do you play?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-19, 09:09 PM
An adventurer not near an open flame?
What kind of games do you play?

Every once in a while completely in the dark with planetouched outsiders so the torches don't give us away.

Fiery Discorporation requires the PC to be within 30 feet of an open flame. Hate to think after you went to all that troube to survive your death you died because the closest flame was over 30 feet away.

Zocelot
2008-04-19, 09:25 PM
Even then, you can just use a contingent fireball. It's instantaneous, but the contingency makes it the instant you need it to be.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 09:51 PM
By the way, wouldn't Ur-Priest fit this build either?

I feel like such an idiot for taking Cleric levels.

Wu-Jen 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 4

Step one: Turn yourself into a Colossal Clericzilla all day
Step two: Make 20 copies of yourself.
Step 3: Get yourself an awesome SLA, like an insta-death one.
Step 4: Run around zillaing everything. Plus, you have 20 of you doing it.
Step 5: Drink the sweet tears and/or blood of your enemies.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-19, 10:32 PM
Wu-Jen 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Archmage 4


Curious how you are making the skill prereqs for Mindbender unless it is taken later in the build?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 11:13 PM
Curious how you are making the skill prereqs for Mindbender unless it is taken later in the build?

By cross classing them. The same way I make them as a Wizard.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-19, 11:18 PM
Interesting I'd never done the math that way before. Thanks what's the minimum to make it into Mindbender and Ur Priest? Roughing it out it doesn't seem doable with an 18 Intelligence human without something like Adaptive Learning.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 11:45 PM
Interesting I'd never done the math that way before. Thanks what's the minimum to make it into Mindbender and Ur Priest? Roughing it out it doesn't seem doable with an 18 Intelligence human.

Minimum skill points? I don't know. But you need 20 Int (or human). I usually have to delay my concentration skill for it.

Although, I just realized, if Wu-Jen doesn't get all knowledges (or at least religion) it won't be able to get into Ur-Priest as soon. Though if it does, and it gets some of the social skills it might even be easier to get into it.

Zocelot
2008-04-20, 09:48 AM
What about Archivist 3/Wu Jen 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Archmage 4?

As far as I'm concerned, the only things better then Archivists are Wizards and Planar Shephards. Also, it's fairly easy to qualify for.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 11:11 AM
Erudite with the variant Spells to Power could be interesting on either side for Archivist or Wujen and works well with the psionic Fiery Discorporation power.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-20, 11:53 AM
Keep in mind you need a Wu Jen caster level of 19 to get the maximum benefit from Giant Size, so you're probably going to have to Arcane Thesis it, maybe even throw Practiced Spellcaster into the mix, depending on your build.

Zocelot
2008-04-20, 11:59 AM
Or you could take Spell Power as an Archmage class ability twice

Sinfire Titan
2008-04-20, 12:08 PM
Cast it on the BBEG... then Dismiss it next round. Insta-kill!

Ocular Spell+Arcane Thesis=Dead BBEG with every casting.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-20, 12:09 PM
It seems to me like Pact of Return (from Heroes of Horror) would be ideal for this. It functions like resurrection, but contingent on your death (and instantaneous) and with no level loss. The only catch is that you have to specify ahead of time the conditions of your death (how you're going to die or who's going to kill you, for example), and that, obviously, shouldn't be a problem in this case.

Nice idea ...


The only real trouble is finding a way to cast both 9th level wu jen spells and 7th level cleric spells, but I'm sure it's doable. Arcane Disciple with the Spite domain would work, for starters.

Hi! I'm an artificer!

Quorothorn
2008-04-20, 01:30 PM
These topics never fail to awe me.

Zocelot
2008-04-20, 02:43 PM
It's ironic that the topic started out as a way to beat TM, and ended up how to maximize it's potential. Also note that the original question hasn't been answered yet.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-20, 02:46 PM
Also note that the original question hasn't been answered yet.

Well that's obvious - just deal a ton of damage. DR 30 isn't massive, y'know.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 02:56 PM
It's ironic that the topic started out as a way to beat TM, and ended up how to maximize it's potential. Also note that the original question hasn't been answered yet.

Sorry I thought you were trying to survive casting the spell as a PC. Binder build using Anima Mage, PRCs and Bloodlines to boost binder level for a supernatural ability like Karsus's Touch which would ignore SR.