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View Full Version : How to get your DM to step it up a bit?



Allis
2008-04-16, 04:35 AM
While not being a bad DM, he's not being particullary good eighter. or it might be the combination of the players, the characters and the DM. We're in a downward spiral, and I don't know what to do about it.

our part:
We won't shut up. we're having loads of fun, but only about 20% is in game. I try to tell the guys to stuff it but it's hard not to get distracted when there's not much going in in-game. However, we're to blame as well, and I don't want to pin all this on our DM. There's not that much wrong with our characters, but we fail to form a life-like group.

his part:
He won't tell us to shut up. half of the time, he engages into the same off topic converstations. While it is annoying for players to do that, if the DM's not paying attention the whole game stops. In game, there is not much to do, kill or go to. the plot-hooks are vague to start with, and our party does not have an inernal motivation to go and save the world. We were captured and shipped out of out home country as low levels. the country we are now in, after some detours, is at war with the neighburs, and the people are suffering because of that.

We are now visiting the castle of the reigning Duke or baron of this part of the kingdom. We are posing as traveling artists to see if there is a way to improve the situation of the suffering people in this country. Half of the party wants to kill him on sight, but being good, that does not strike the other half as the best course of action. He seems to be a really bad ruler, but that does not mean he's really an evil person.

The main thing is, I don't know how to get te pace back in the adventure. I tried talking to the DM, but he doesn't really get it... I'm missing some interaction from his side, people coming up to us with problems or whatever. We have to activiely seek out every encounter with NPC's, from talking to the tavern owner to getting the duke to talk to us. There is never a sudden listen, spot or ini, never a damsel in distress. If you see a half-mangled princess dangling from a dragon's throath in this game, she'll probably tell you to move along, I can handle this myself, thank you.

what can I do to improve the pace of the game, and give it more depth? except from shutting up, of course, that's first on the list.

zombie
2008-04-16, 04:48 AM
ask him if you could dm for a while and show him how he should act?

Allis
2008-04-16, 05:02 AM
Hmm, it's not really our habit to "steal" anyone's adventure. we only play homebbrew worlds, and quite often the storyline or world is someone's "own thing" He does play in different groups with other DM's so I think he know it's not running perfect. I think he is a bit insecure, so he does not really guide us, afraid he'll steer us in a direction we won't like. We're all friends, and I don't want to make him feel bad. I might go and talk to the other players about being more supportive and paying more attention to the game. But it's hard to play when you actively seek out plot hooks and there are none.

We were in a town, with nothing to do and no-where to go. As a druid, I actively sought out the local druid, asking him about any problems in the area, so we could be of use. Even overdid it a bit, asking if there really was no trouble with any goblins, bugbears or such, threathning villagers. But nothing.

Hazkali
2008-04-16, 05:27 AM
his part:
He won't tell us to shut up. half of the time, he engages into the same off topic converstations. While it is annoying for players to do that, if the DM's not paying attention the whole game stops.


The DM is human too, and one of your friends to boot. It's not his job nor place to start throwing around orders out of the game. If no-one is interested in his game then he's perfectly allowed to join in whatever conversation that the players deem more interesting than the game that he has taken hours to prepare, as its the players doing him a disservice rather than vice-versa.



our party does not have an inernal motivation to go and save the world.


This is a common problem.The best solution would be to agree to retcon a solution with the DM- some sort of charter, oath, promise or overarching quest to bind people together.



We are now visiting the castle of the reigning Duke or baron of this part of the kingdom. We are posing as traveling artists to see if there is a way to improve the situation of the suffering people in this country. Half of the party wants to kill him on sight, but being good, that does not strike the other half as the best course of action. He seems to be a really bad ruler, but that does not mean he's really an evil person.

Certainly killing the Duke will throw up a lot of complications, especially if he is just inept. However your statement seem to imply that one half of the party is nongood. Is this correct? If so, the best course of action for the DM might be to disallow all evil and the chaotic neutral alignments; players, especially inexperienced players, often use these as justification for (in-game) anti-social behaviour, which affects everyone's fun.



The main thing is, I don't know how to get te pace back in the adventure. I tried talking to the DM, but he doesn't really get it... I'm missing some interaction from his side, people coming up to us with problems or whatever. We have to activiely seek out every encounter with NPC's, from talking to the tavern owner to getting the duke to talk to us. There is never a sudden listen, spot or ini, never a damsel in distress. If you see a half-mangled princess dangling from a dragon's throath in this game, she'll probably tell you to move along, I can handle this myself, thank you.


This does seem to be a bit of a problem. Whilst railroading isn't good, PCs need some DM-controlled events to funnel them to the encounters that are important to the plot. Your comment about there "not being much to do" is probably wrong- the DM probably has a wonderful story mapped out, it's just that you haven't jumped on the train of DM-logic that will take you there, which is his problem. Perhaps direct him to these message boards where we'll be happy to give him advice.

Allis
2008-04-16, 05:55 AM
The DM is human too, and one of your friends to boot. It's not his job nor place to start throwing around orders out of the game. If no-one is interested in his game then he's perfectly allowed to join in whatever conversation that the players deem more interesting than the game that he has taken hours to prepare, as its the players doing him a disservice rather than vice-versa.

True. But when i'm Dming, I do once in a while tell them to pay attention. Or I make them throw ini checks or have them hear a weird noise. It drags their attention back to the game. It's probably not his foult, ut he IS the Dungeon Master, and because of that the one to get the game going easiest. When you trail off as a player, your character stops. But if the DM's attention is elsewhere, the world disappears.

This is a common problem.The best solution would be to agree to retcon a solution with the DM- some sort of charter, oath, promise or overarching quest to bind people together.

I'm not familiar with the term retcon. I have advised him to give us a NPC with a mission for us to perform, or to make the current affairs personal some way.

Certainly killing the Duke will throw up a lot of complications, especially if he is just inept. However your statement seem to imply that one half of the party is nongood. Is this correct? If so, the best course of action for the DM might be to disallow all evil and the chaotic neutral alignments; players, especially inexperienced players, often use these as justification for (in-game) anti-social behaviour, which affects everyone's fun.

We're all "good", or neutral, some are just convinced this man is responsible for the dying of thousands of people, and killing one to solve that is worth it. evil is not allowed, and I don't think the other characters are about to leap into combat when not every-one agrees. There is luckily no in-game antisocial behaviour.

This does seem to be a bit of a problem. Whilst railroading isn't good, PCs need some DM-controlled events to funnel them to the encounters that are important to the plot. Your comment about there "not being much to do" is probably wrong- the DM probably has a wonderful story mapped out, it's just that you haven't jumped on the train of DM-logic that will take you there, which is his problem. Perhaps direct him to these message boards where we'll be happy to give him advice.

I'm absolutely sure he has a really good main plot. it's just not of interest to the characters yet.The current affairs in the world are all quite political, and we're not from this place. And since there seems to be a lack of side-quests, at this moment we don't have that much to do. we wander around looking for the hook. I normally softly direct the players towards the hook, or sometimes hit them hard on the head with it. We do actively search for clues, talk to people, but if we're not in the right place at the right time, the hook has gone home and we're stranded. No hints, no chance encounters, no nothing.

Burley
2008-04-16, 09:25 AM
Cash and Prizes. If the DM wants you to do something, it doesn't take much incentive to get you moving. Any player is going to adventure for loots. It's...well, it's kind-of-a big part of the game. Chapters devoted to it and such.

Anyways, if your DM actually has something for y'all to do, he'd use it. I assume that there isn't much going on, and you could very well spend an entire session without accomplishing anything. Am I correct?
If yes: Your DM is dry. The inspiration is gone. If he's a new DM, he's probably realized that he doesn't want to be a DM. If he's been doing it a while, maybe he's just got writers block. The solution would be to either ask if he wants to step down for a bit. Never instate a coup, but offer a reprieve.
If no: You, and the other players, really need to zip it. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that people think the DM should have any power. My group thinks that the DM is the boss, no matter what. I DM every other week, and I can't get my friends to stop thinking of me as some sort of god. They think I'm supposed to amuse them, which is soooo wrong. The other DM agrees that DMs aren't anything more than players, but my friends still treat him like his word is platinum...even though we play at my apartment. (Last week, we were deciding what to do for dinner. Everybody wanted this greasy slop, and I said: "No. I don't want that unhealthy nonsense in my home, because it stinks up the apartment, and you guys always make a mess." I was overruled, because the other DM wanted cheese sticks.)

Your DM doesn't need to step it up, at least, not by himself. He isn't responsible for your actions, nor is he responsible for forcefeeding a campaign down your throat. (Any character can find a reason to just about any quest. The Chaotic Neutral rogue could still go into The Dungeon of No Treasure Ever, just because he knows there would be traps and stuff to disarm, and it'd be good practice.) The whole group needs to talk, seriously, about what you all expect from each other. It may be that the DM wants to be more like a player, letting you guys go off and do what you want and he'll wing it. Or, it may be that you players aren't catching his plot hooks well enough. Maybe it's all around not working out, and its time to resort to playing a module for a while.

Anyways, it's almost never any one person's fault. If the game is crappin' out, it's the entire group that needs to step up and fix it.

Allis
2008-04-16, 10:46 AM
I hope this post comes across, I always experience problems with this forum after a recent update.

I guess I've chosen the title poorly. ofcourse it's not just the DM's foult OR responsibility. That's why I'm asking for things I can do differently, so we can all speed things up a bit.

I do believe however that the DM has somewhat of a chairman role. He's no god, but he IS the game leader.

He's not a bad DM, and a good friend. I think he has some good ideas which he can't seem te get across to us the players. I don't want to make a big deal out of it and have a "bad DM" discussion, I'd rather focus on my way of playing to see if I can change the way we ask questions, do things, to extract the actions from him.

Burley
2008-04-16, 12:50 PM
Oh, you want tips on performing YOUR performance as a player? I got confused by the the giant part about his problem.
Anyways, if you've already tried to tell people that the game needs to get back on track, try again. If it doesn't work, bring it up. Changing yourself doesn't always change the group.

I still believe you need have a group discussion about the way things are going and how you can all step up and change it.

PnP Fan
2008-04-16, 02:23 PM
We use a catch phrase in my group to get everyone back on track. It may be that all you need is a periodic reminder that you are all there to play a game (as well as socialize. . .). As the observer of the problem, who sees it as a problem, congratulations, it's your job to do this! Most of the groups I play with have a distinct lack of focus. But giving them focus is not difficult. It may be as simple as, "hey guys let's get back to the fantasy." Additionally, as others have pointed out, it's often best to lead by example. You don't have to take his game from him by displacing him as GM. But you can try and force him to give you the details you want. Make the effort to interact with the surroundings. Ask questions about the surroundings. Your DM may just be a very passive person and doesn't want to "force" anyone to game if they are in the mood to goof off. But if you show that you are interested, he may come forth with lots of adventury-goodness. You may even find out that you wind up leading the party, because no one understands what you do to bring forth the adventure!

Go forth and make him DM!!!!

batsofchaos
2008-04-16, 04:10 PM
While a DM is not God, the position does hold more control of the meeting than that of anyone else. The DM is the scene-setter, the referee, and controls everyone the other players interact with. An individual game session can be run without the input of any single participant EXCEPT the DM. The last two sessions I've run had a player out (a different one each time), and the game survived without them. Were I the one that couldn't make it, the game would have been cancelled, or at least altered well beyond the conventional "player absense." Again, this doesn't make the DM the boss, but it does put the DM in a sorta managerial role. The sticky "So You Wanna Be a DM?" has a lot to offer on this subject.

If the DM is unable or unwilling to move the session back on-topic, as a player there's not much you can realistically do. Talk to everyone involved, explain your concerns, and hear what they think. If talking doesn't net any results, the game is probably going to die. The characters have no direction and the sessions turn into hanging-out; that's not gaming, it's socializing. While socializing isn't bad, don't defecate in my coffee and tell me it's nutmeg.

Allis
2008-04-17, 02:20 AM
thanks all for the ideas on the subject. I did try to actively seek the adventure, ask loads of questions, poke the guards, etc. One time I did succeed, but it felt like I was hijacking the adventure a bit.


We had just defeated an attacking party of guards or soldiers of some sorts. While most attackers died, the leader of the group was unconsious, but still alive. We managed to get him talking with a combination of the bards diplomacy (and her sex-appeal, no doubt), the fighters extreme urge to knonk the wind out of the man again, and my druids attempts to balance those assaults on the man. It was a bit good cop, bad cop and sexy cop. He told us he was the third son of the Duke of the neighburing country (the one we're visiting now). He was arrogant and mean, but my character suspected he just didn't know better. Rather than kill him (he's helpless now) or set him loose, which would have him running to daddy as fast as his feet could go, I suggested we'd take him with us. At that moment we were on his way to bring emergency supplies to the area the duke was supposed to be supervising. The people there were dying for lack of food, because the war with yet another country was bleeding them dry of crops and resources.

So I convinced the party we could give it a try. We took the arrogant fool with us, and I showed them the need and suffering of his people. We untied him, and let him help with the wounded and the needy. i gave his big red cloak to a shivering little girl... And he started crying. Once wo got back to the city, he waved goobye, but we saw him the week after, dressed in Palor robes! All he kept was his signet ring which I took from him, and gave back once he believed the problems. I had him make a promiss when I returned that ring, that he would find a way to right the wrongs his father was doing.

This was an adventure that went well. We all had fun, it flowed, we thought we knew what we were doing, we did a lot of ingame stuff that day. But in the end I realised I was prompting all the action. I somehow had forced my DM to go in this direction. I thought it was really good how he went along with the flow, adding the palor robes and such. But if I'm not pulling really hard, nothing happens... I don't want to be stealing the show all the time, but it seems to be the only way.

You guys DM, right? What can I say to him to make the thing go smoother, while not making him insecure or angry?

Goff
2008-04-17, 03:02 AM
If anyone can get ahold of it, I recommend getting your DM to have a good read of the DMGII - it's got a lot of useful information about these sorts of situations and generally being a better DM.

Allis
2008-04-17, 03:28 AM
Oh, you want tips on performing YOUR performance as a player? I got confused by the the giant part about his problem.
Anyways, if you've already tried to tell people that the game needs to get back on track, try again. If it doesn't work, bring it up. Changing yourself doesn't always change the group.

I still believe you need have a group discussion about the way things are going and how you can all step up and change it.

I can't help but notice the sarcasm :smallbiggrin: You might notice that about half of the text under "his part" is game description and the like. All in all I don't think I've been really mean about my DM. I know that changing myself (rather, my way of roleplaying and behaviour in the game) does not automatically change the group. It is however the one thing totally under my controll.

The thing is, most of the time we're having fun. I don't wat to be the one spoiling the fun by insisting on more or better roleplaying, DMing, less off-topic banter, etc. If there is not a smooth way to "fix" it, I'm not gonna bother. Because a group discussion might improve the situation, but I've seen many occations where it ripped the whole game apart.

batsofchaos
2008-04-17, 10:53 AM
I don't think there's any one thing you can say. Approach him gently otherwise he might take your problems with the game-flow as a personal attack on him and his DMing style. Then, he may either find a way to get things back on track, or he may choose to keep doing what he's doing. If it's the former, awesome. If it's the latter, well, the game'll probably die shortly anyway.

Allis
2008-04-17, 11:53 AM
We'll see tomorrow. I'm still looking forward to it, so that's a good thing, right? But then again, I like to see my friends. Since we're not in college anymore, we don't see each other that often, and DnD is a great way to get together.