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ashmanonar
2008-04-16, 04:53 PM
Hey to all the optimizers out there,

I'm thinking about coming up with a Warblade who is a servant of an organization that hunts Dark wizards (wizards who use black magic, or simply evil practitioners).

What build would you recommend for such a character? I have some ideas for weaponry, but I'm interested especially in feats.

Crossclassing is okay, as long as you can give me where the class comes from.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-16, 05:54 PM
You might try the mage slayer feats from complete arcane. They allow one to ignore magical concealment, disallow defensive casting, and a few other things I can't remember at the time.

Frosty
2008-04-16, 05:58 PM
A lockdown build. Dip a level or 2 into Crusader to get the Thicket of Blades stance, grab the Mageslayer and Pierce Magical Concealment feats, use a Spiked chain and Combat Reflexes feat, and use Improved Trip or Stand Still.

Laugh at mages as they can't move without being tripped/stopped, and they also can't cast defensively.

Make sure you have a friendly mage cast Dimensional Anchor on enemy mages. Or, have an item capable of doing that.

If the enemy mage is Batman, bring your own Batman.

ashmanonar
2008-04-17, 12:11 AM
As I'm a total ToB noob, I need a little help. If I multiclass Warblade 5/Crusader 2 (which sounds like a REALLY good idea, by the way--I don't know which order yet, but both classes have most of the same skills, so it's kinda moot at this point) how are maneuvers determined? Do I get the normal number of maneuvers from Crusader (while they're not quite granted, because I know that's different than Warblade) and the normal number of maneuvers from Warblade, or do they not stack?

As for schools of combat, I'm considering Stone Dragon and one other in Crusader; maybe even White Raven, to help benefit the whole group. I might keep the two separate, because if I mix maneuvers from one to the other, I'll have a massive bookkeeping headache.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-17, 08:07 AM
As I'm a total ToB noob, I need a little help. If I multiclass Warblade 5/Crusader 2 (which sounds like a REALLY good idea, by the way--I don't know which order yet, but both classes have most of the same skills, so it's kinda moot at this point) how are maneuvers determined? Do I get the normal number of maneuvers from Crusader (while they're not quite granted, because I know that's different than Warblade) and the normal number of maneuvers from Warblade, or do they not stack?

As for schools of combat, I'm considering Stone Dragon and one other in Crusader; maybe even White Raven, to help benefit the whole group. I might keep the two separate, because if I mix maneuvers from one to the other, I'll have a massive bookkeeping headache.

page 39 tells about multiclassing.You get both different amounts yes. Can't choose same manuvers (no 2x a maneuver known).

Darrin
2008-04-17, 08:17 AM
As I'm a total ToB noob, I need a little help. If I multiclass Warblade 5/Crusader 2 (which sounds like a REALLY good idea, by the way--I don't know which order yet, but both classes have most of the same skills, so it's kinda moot at this point) how are maneuvers determined?

Do I get the normal number of maneuvers from Crusader (while they're not quite granted, because I know that's different than Warblade) and the normal number of maneuvers from Warblade, or do they not stack?


You keep track of your Warblade and Crusader maneuvers separately, much like a Cleric/Wizard would keep his divine and arcane spells separate. You also determine your Initiator Level (IL) for each class separately. Your Warblade IL will be the number of Warblade levels plus half your non-Warblade levels (including Crusader). Likewise, your Crusader IL is your number of Crusader levels plus half your non-Crusader levels.

When combat starts, you'll have two different pools of maneuvers to choose from. You'll start with 2 granted Crusader maneveurs, determined randomly, and whatever Warblade maneuvers you have readed. You can mix stances, strikes, and counters from both, but your Crusader recovery mechanic will only grant you Crusader maneuvers and your Warblade recovery mechanic will only recover Warblade maneuvers. Just remember if you want to recover Warblade maneuvers, you can't use any Crusader maneuvers either during your turn. (You can still use stances and recover your Warblade maneuvers.)

If you take the Adaptive Style feat, you can reset *all* of your maneveurs, Warblade and Crusader, at the same time with a full-round action, and you'll be granted another random 2 Crusader maneuvers to start with.



As for schools of combat, I'm considering Stone Dragon and one other in Crusader; maybe even White Raven, to help benefit the whole group. I might keep the two separate, because if I mix maneuvers from one to the other, I'll have a massive bookkeeping headache.

Stone Dragon isn't all that great of a discipline. Once you pick up Mountain Hammer (your all-purpose Anti-DR "unlimited Shatter" can-opener), you can pretty much ignore it. One of the problems with Stone Dragon is all the Stone Dragon stances prevent you from moving more than 5' or you lose the benefit of the stance. To make things worse, almost all of the Stone Dragon strikes are standard actions, which means your move action is completely wasted. While this isn't so much of a concern for a Lockdown/Thicket of Blades build, you may need more mobility to move around the battlefield. The two best stances for a Warblade/Crusader to start out with are usually Punishing Stance (extra 1d6 damage for -2 AC) and Leading the Charge (damage scales up as your IL increases).

One more thing to consider with Warblades and Crusaders, there's an annoying quirk with their higher level stances, since the Warblade picks up his next stance at Warblade 4 (when his IL isn't high enough for 3rd level stances) and Crusader picks up another stance at Crusader 2 (when only level 1 stances are available, and he only has three disciplines to choose from). You can get around this via multiclassing, but you have to pay attention to your initiator level. Decide which 3rd level stance you want, and make sure you multi-class appropriately.

For a Warblade picking up Pearl of Black Doubt (great for high AC builds), Absolute Steel (great for high mobility/pouncer builds), Leaping Dragon (great if you're specializing in Tiger Claw jumping maneuvers or leap attack builds), or Tactics of the Wolf (great for perpetual flanking/teamwork builds), just make sure you take two non-Warblade levels before you take Warblade 4, and you'll have an IL high enough for 3rd level stances. Crusader 2/Warblade 4 works fine for this.

Thicket of Blades is tougher to get because Crusaders get new stances at Crusader 2 and Crusader 8. To pick it up at Crusader 2, you'll need six levels of a non-Crusader class, so Crusader 1/Warblade 6/Crusader 2 would work but it takes 8 levels, same as a straight Crusader. To get Thicket of Blades as quickly as possible, you'll need to spend a feat at 6th level on Martial Stance. A Crusader 2/Warblade 4 would work just fine for this, and would count as one of your Warblade stances because your Warblade IL = 5 (even though it's from a non-Warblade discipline).

ashmanonar
2008-04-17, 09:28 AM
A bunch of great advice.

Awesome. Thank you so much for the indepth advice. :)

edit:

Oh, we're starting at ECL 7, so I might not have everything right away, but I still like knowing what paths are useful to take. So please continue with great advice!


(forgot about multiple posts :( )

elliott20
2008-04-17, 09:38 AM
Don't forget to pick up Iron Heart Surge at some point.

ashmanonar
2008-04-17, 09:52 AM
Don't forget to pick up Iron Heart Surge at some point.

What does that do again (briefly)? I'm not in front of my books right now.

elliott20
2008-04-17, 10:03 AM
in short it allows you to negate a status/condition that imposes a penalty. depending upon how liberal you are with the reading of the actual text, this could include a LOT of things.

Burley
2008-04-17, 10:19 AM
Or, if you want a really quick and dirty way of doing it: Complete Mage has a Alternate Class feature (which isn't really alternate, but an expansion) for Rangers that lets you take "Arcanist" as your favored enemy. Take a dip in that to get all arcane casters as favored enemies.

ashmanonar
2008-04-17, 11:07 AM
Or, if you want a really quick and dirty way of doing it: Complete Mage has a Alternate Class feature (which isn't really alternate, but an expansion) for Rangers that lets you take "Arcanist" as your favored enemy. Take a dip in that to get all arcane casters as favored enemies.

That sounds completely nasty and cheesy.

I love it.


in short it allows you to negate a status/condition that imposes a penalty. depending upon how liberal you are with the reading of the actual text, this could include a LOT of things.

Ahh, I believe I've read of it before. That's the one that could conceivably end existence, right?

Darrin
2008-04-17, 11:15 AM
Oh, we're starting at ECL 7, so I might not have everything right away, but I still like knowing what paths are useful to take. So please continue with great advice!

Ok, a Lockdown/Thicket of Blades Crusader/Warblade using Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment... start with high Dex for Combat Reflexes, you're creating an AoO monster. You'll need a reach weapon. Although Spiked Chain is a favorite, it costs a feat for EWP and you can get the same reach without spending a feat with a guisarme + armor spikes. (If you're not going to be tripping anyone, a glaive has just a wee bit better average damage).

Race: Human, for the bonus feat.

1) Crusader 1, Feat: Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat: Stand Still
2) Warblade 1
3) Warblade 2, Feat: Mage Slayer
4) Warblade 3
5) Warblade 4
6) Warblade 5, Feat: Pierce Magical Concealment, Bonus Feat: Blind-Fight
7) Warblade 6
8) Crusader 2, Stance: Thicket of Blades
9) Warblade 7, Feat: Deft Opportunist
10) Warblade 8
11) Warblade 9, Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
12) Warblade 10, Feat: Robilar's Gambit

Yes, I know, I told you take two Crusader levels before Warblade 4, and then pick up Thicket of Blades with Martial Study... this delays Thicket of Blades until you're 8th level, but this way you can spend more feats on maximizing your AoOs. Besides, once you get Thicket of Blades, you won't need whatever stance you picked up with Warblade 4. Or just slip in a 1-level dip into Lion Totem Barbarian (for Pounce) or Psychic Warrior (for Expansion) and you can pick up a 3rd level Warblade stance.

Do whatever you can to increase your size. Normally you could dip into a Cleric of Kord for the Strength domain (Enlarge Person), but Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment apply a -8 penalty to your caster level, so that won't help much. If one of the other PCs won't cast Enlarge Person on you, consider taking a level of Psychic Warrior or the Hidden Talent feat would let you pick up Expansion. The feats Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness would also increase your reach 5'.

Magic Items:

Ring of Blinking. Pick this up ASAP. It's expensive (27,000 GP, outside your WBL at ECL 7), but worth it. Combined with Pierce Magical Concealment, anyone that attacks you has a 50% miss chance, and while you would normally get a 20% miss chance yourself, Pierce Magical Concealment lets you ignore that 20%.

Bracers of Opportunity. MIC p. 81, 2300 GP. +2 on AoOs, 1/day extra AoO.

Counterstrike Bracers. MIC p. 90, 2500 GP. 2/day, AoO after opponent misses you.

Greatreach Bracers. MIC p. p. 108, 2000 GP. 3/day, increase reach by 10'.


Although there is a Belt of Growth in the MIC, avoid it unless you have no other way to Enlarge Person. It only works 3/day, and is too expensive for what it does. If you have a spellcaster in the party who can create wondrous items, ask him to make you a Belt of Enlarge Person as a command-word item with unlimited uses for 1800 GP.

elliott20
2008-04-17, 11:22 AM
Ahh, I believe I've read of it before. That's the one that could conceivably end existence, right?
yep, that's the one. if you play it straight, it's still a very powerful maneuver that can get you out of a lot tough situations.

ashmanonar
2008-04-17, 04:51 PM
Ok, a Lockdown/Thicket of Blades Crusader/Warblade using Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment... start with high Dex for Combat Reflexes, you're creating an AoO monster. You'll need a reach weapon. Although Spiked Chain is a favorite, it costs a feat for EWP and you can get the same reach without spending a feat with a guisarme + armor spikes. (If you're not going to be tripping anyone, a glaive has just a wee bit better average damage).

Race: Human, for the bonus feat.

1) Crusader 1, Feat: Combat Reflexes, Bonus Feat: Stand Still
2) Warblade 1
3) Warblade 2, Feat: Mage Slayer
4) Warblade 3
5) Warblade 4
6) Warblade 5, Feat: Pierce Magical Concealment, Bonus Feat: Blind-Fight
7) Warblade 6
8) Crusader 2, Stance: Thicket of Blades
9) Warblade 7, Feat: Deft Opportunist
10) Warblade 8
11) Warblade 9, Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative
12) Warblade 10, Feat: Robilar's Gambit

Yes, I know, I told you take two Crusader levels before Warblade 4, and then pick up Thicket of Blades with Martial Study... this delays Thicket of Blades until you're 8th level, but this way you can spend more feats on maximizing your AoOs. Besides, once you get Thicket of Blades, you won't need whatever stance you picked up with Warblade 4. Or just slip in a 1-level dip into Lion Totem Barbarian (for Pounce) or Psychic Warrior (for Expansion) and you can pick up a 3rd level Warblade stance.

Do whatever you can to increase your size. Normally you could dip into a Cleric of Kord for the Strength domain (Enlarge Person), but Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment apply a -8 penalty to your caster level, so that won't help much. If one of the other PCs won't cast Enlarge Person on you, consider taking a level of Psychic Warrior or the Hidden Talent feat would let you pick up Expansion. The feats Aberration Blood and Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness would also increase your reach 5'.

Magic Items:

Ring of Blinking. Pick this up ASAP. It's expensive (27,000 GP, outside your WBL at ECL 7), but worth it. Combined with Pierce Magical Concealment, anyone that attacks you has a 50% miss chance, and while you would normally get a 20% miss chance yourself, Pierce Magical Concealment lets you ignore that 20%.

Bracers of Opportunity. MIC p. 81, 2300 GP. +2 on AoOs, 1/day extra AoO.

Counterstrike Bracers. MIC p. 90, 2500 GP. 2/day, AoO after opponent misses you.

Greatreach Bracers. MIC p. p. 108, 2000 GP. 3/day, increase reach by 10'.


Although there is a Belt of Growth in the MIC, avoid it unless you have no other way to Enlarge Person. It only works 3/day, and is too expensive for what it does. If you have a spellcaster in the party who can create wondrous items, ask him to make you a Belt of Enlarge Person as a command-word item with unlimited uses for 1800 GP.

Some notes: I'm probably going to make him a dwarf (for flavor), (long story short, there's a Dwarven city that our group has had contact with before, and since I'm having my other character bow out, this could be a good way to incorporate this one.) But also because Dwarves get bonuses to saves versus spells, etc. It seems a logical choice.

That probably pushes feat progression back a bit, so I'll have to study this closely and see what actually comes out of it. Thanks for the advice (again) though. :)

Darrin
2008-04-18, 09:57 AM
That probably pushes feat progression back a bit, so I'll have to study this closely and see what actually comes out of it. Thanks for the advice (again) though. :)

The +2 save vs spells... might be worth it against spellcasters. Is this an FR campaign? Lesser Gray Dwarf (PGF, LA +0) gets enlarge person 1/day, although the -4 Cha dings up the Crusader's Indomitable Soul quite a bit. You can offset the Dwarf's Cha penalty with the Magic-Blooded template (+2 Cha -2 Wis, Dragon #306, check the 3.0 templates on Crystalkeep for details)

Deft Opportunist at 9 isn't absolutely necessary. So take Stand Still at 3rd, Mage Slayer at 6th and Pierce Magic Concealment at 9th.

You're core combo is Combat Reflexes + Stand Still + Mage Slayer. Stand Still causes anyone who steps into or moves through an area you threaten to stop moving. Mage Slayer prevents spellcasters from casting defensively - if they cast a spell, you get an AoO.

Pierce Magical Concealment is mostly for Ring of Blinking or if they are using Displacement or some other kind of concealment.

Recommended Maneuvers/Stances:

1 (Cru1): Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames. Stance: Leading the Charge
2 (WB1): Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike. Stance: Punishing Stance.
3 (WB2): Sudden Leap
4 (WB3): Mountain Hammer (or Wall of Blades)
5 (Cru2): Stance: Martial Spirit
6 (WB4): Action Before Thought (Replace Wolf Fang Strike). Stance: Tactics of the Wolf
7 (WB5): Iron Heart Surge (or White Raven Tactics)
8 (WB6): Lightning Recovery (Replace Steel Wind)
9 (WB7): Covering Strike
10 (WB8): Rapid Counter (Replace Sudden Leap or Lightning Recovery)
11 (WB9): Iron Heart Focus. Stance: Hearing the Air
12 (WB10): Elder Mountain Hammer (Replace Mountain Hammer)

ashmanonar
2008-04-18, 08:37 PM
The +2 save vs spells... might be worth it against spellcasters. Is this an FR campaign? Lesser Gray Dwarf (PGF, LA +0) gets enlarge person 1/day, although the -4 Cha dings up the Crusader's Indomitable Soul quite a bit. You can offset the Dwarf's Cha penalty with the Magic-Blooded template (+2 Cha -2 Wis, Dragon #306, check the 3.0 templates on Crystalkeep for details)

Deft Opportunist at 9 isn't absolutely necessary. So take Stand Still at 3rd, Mage Slayer at 6th and Pierce Magic Concealment at 9th.

You're core combo is Combat Reflexes + Stand Still + Mage Slayer. Stand Still causes anyone who steps into or moves through an area you threaten to stop moving. Mage Slayer prevents spellcasters from casting defensively - if they cast a spell, you get an AoO.

Pierce Magical Concealment is mostly for Ring of Blinking or if they are using Displacement or some other kind of concealment.

Recommended Maneuvers/Stances:

1 (Cru1): Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames. Stance: Leading the Charge
2 (WB1): Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike. Stance: Punishing Stance.
3 (WB2): Sudden Leap
4 (WB3): Mountain Hammer (or Wall of Blades)
5 (Cru2): Stance: Martial Spirit
6 (WB4): Action Before Thought (Replace Wolf Fang Strike). Stance: Tactics of the Wolf
7 (WB5): Iron Heart Surge (or White Raven Tactics)
8 (WB6): Lightning Recovery (Replace Steel Wind)
9 (WB7): Covering Strike
10 (WB8): Rapid Counter (Replace Sudden Leap or Lightning Recovery)
11 (WB9): Iron Heart Focus. Stance: Hearing the Air
12 (WB10): Elder Mountain Hammer (Replace Mountain Hammer)

I'm taking Stand Still next level, I believe, so I'll have it available right away.

I kinda screwed up the progression a bit, because I took a level of Ranger at 1st. (Complete ...Mage? (variant- Favored Enemy: Arcanist; also Track)) But I'll get there. I appreciate the help on choosing maneuvers.

Hal
2008-04-18, 09:04 PM
There's a 5 level PrC in Complete Warrior called Occult Slayer. The fluff says that you hate ALL spell casters, though I see no reason why you and your DM can't work around that. It has some pretty interesting benefits: Extra damage against spellcasters, bonuses to saving throws against spells and SLAs, you can rebound targeted spells back at their caster, and protection against divinations and mind-affecting abilities.

I don't know how its effectiveness rates against some of those ToB builds (I only picked it up yesterday), but I've been wanting to try one for a while.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 09:15 PM
It sucks. Don't take Occult slayer. Its capstone is duplicated by one single spell or item, and it has sucky pre-reqs/ Weapon Focus? Seriously.

Darrin
2008-04-19, 07:35 AM
I kinda screwed up the progression a bit, because I took a level of Ranger at 1st. (Complete ...Mage? (variant- Favored Enemy: Arcanist; also Track)) But I'll get there. I appreciate the help on choosing maneuvers.

No no, that's good, and fits your character concept well. (Psychic Warrior, picking up Expansion would have been optimal, but that's fine, this doesn't have to be an optimal build.) That gives you two non-Warblade levels to slip in before Warblade 4, getting you a 3rd level stance.

And I screwed up the Maneuver progression, and completely forgot about Thicket of Blades. If you can, take your second Crusader level at 8th level so you can pick up your Thicket of Blades stance.

Thicket is key, since any movement triggers an AoO, including 5' steps and tumbling (although check with your DM on this last point, as it's not covered by the Thicket/Tumbling rules.)

Talya
2008-04-19, 07:53 AM
Argh. I just deleted the character sheet for the Goliath Crusader lockdown build I'd made earlier.

A goliath who's got a level of Barbarian (Goliath Substitution) can mountain-rage and become large, gaining reach.

If you're using a spiked chain...your mountain-raging 20' reach is great for mageslayer lockdown builds. These builds are very feat intensive, so try to get flaws if your DM is at all flexible. Anyway, even without the goliath race, here's what you'll need.

Feats of note:
Combat Reflexes
Mageslayer
Exotic Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Stand Still

Optional feats:
Peirce Magical Concealment
Peirce Magical Protection

Maneuvers of note:
Thicket of Blades

Frosty
2008-04-19, 11:39 AM
And the best thing is, it can't get dispelled, unlike Enlarge person :smallamused:

ashmanonar
2008-04-19, 12:25 PM
No no, that's good, and fits your character concept well. (Psychic Warrior, picking up Expansion would have been optimal, but that's fine, this doesn't have to be an optimal build.) That gives you two non-Warblade levels to slip in before Warblade 4, getting you a 3rd level stance.

And I screwed up the Maneuver progression, and completely forgot about Thicket of Blades. If you can, take your second Crusader level at 8th level so you can pick up your Thicket of Blades stance.

Thicket is key, since any movement triggers an AoO, including 5' steps and tumbling (although check with your DM on this last point, as it's not covered by the Thicket/Tumbling rules.)

Heh, I'm indecisive. I went back to Cru2/WB5. (I couldn't get the feats I wanted otherwise.) Maybe I should go Cru1/WB6, but that's ANOTHER rebuild :(. At least my skills should stay the same.

In the end, this character is gonna be mostly for fun, I just wanted to be as useful in combat as possible (while I had fun).

Ooh, 6th level warblade has Imp Uncanny Dodge...

ARGH!


Argh. I just deleted the character sheet for the Goliath Crusader lockdown build I'd made earlier.

A goliath who's got a level of Barbarian (Goliath Substitution) can mountain-rage and become large, gaining reach.

If you're using a spiked chain...your mountain-raging 20' reach is great for mageslayer lockdown builds. These builds are very feat intensive, so try to get flaws if your DM is at all flexible. Anyway, even without the goliath race, here's what you'll need.

Feats of note:
Combat Reflexes
Mageslayer
Exotic Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Stand Still

Optional feats:
Peirce Magical Concealment
Peirce Magical Protection

Maneuvers of note:
Thicket of Blades

I've got a lot of those. :D

Haven't got Stand Still yet, and I don't know if I'll ever get Pierce Magical Concealment (gotta grab blind fight) but I've got most of the rest of that, and I'm grabbing Thicket of blades next level.

I'm also staying with my Dwarf, because I like the flavor of it (a magic-resistant warrior). I'm home-brewing a secret society (I'm shamelessly stealing the name for it from the Dresden Files) that he's a hunter for. Mostly for RP purposes, but maybe we'll run into other Venatori in our travels :smallamused: