Help me PROVE it. (Wiz vs Fighter)

[shadow_archmagi]

Conversation goes something like this:

Me: No, wizards are overpowered.
DM: You think EVERYTHING is overpowered.
Me: No, honestly, wizards have so many save-or-suck spells...
DM: Trust me, I've played fighters and they are a versatile and balanced group, like all base classes.
Me: Thats it, I challenge you to a DUEL! I'll bring a wizard, you bring a fighter, we'll settle this one on one.

The rules:

8th level fighter vs 8th level wizard. 8 fights in a variety of terrains. No LA races. As few noncore sources as possible. 28 point buy. Prestige classes allowed. Minimize cheese. Wealth By Level, but only 14 thousand worth of magical items. Dust of Coughing and Sneezing is also out.

[Frosty]

But the whole point is that wizards *are* cheesy.

Hmm...Glitterdust is pretty food. Will save or Blind for 8 rounds? Hell yes. Or Hold Person. If the fighter doesn't have good Balance and Reflex, you can go ahead and Grease him down or grease his weapon from his hands. He might not expect it.

Specialize in Conjuration so you can Abrupt Jaunt out of Grapples and out of attacks.

Or I guess you could just go for no-save and sucks like Shivering Touch or Ray of Stupidity. You can cast level 4 spells, so you can use Split Ray with RoS, taking away 2d4+2 of his Intelligence each turn. 2 of these and he should be in a coma. If you want, you can also use Sudden Maximize with a Shivering Touch to deal 18 Dex damage to the Fighter. That'll most likely paralyze him as well.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Max int. Then Dex and Con. Use various Init tricks to go first:

Nerveskitter, Improved Init, Hummingird + RoW for 19+ Dex init.

Don't even do this if he starts 100ft away and isn't an archer.

1) Wear a Block Robe
2) Carry a Scythe
3) Cast Deep Slumber
4) Coup de Grace

Alternatively, have Displacement and Fly memed. Cast Displacement and move or Fly and fly up depending on if he holds a bow or a sword.

Then cast Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Hail Storm, wall of Fire, Slow, and anything else you want. As long as Slow goes first, then Black Tentacles.

[Solo]

Greater Invisibility + Flying + Displacement + Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion + Enervation + Save or X spells


Specific Save or X spell recommendations:

Slow
Deeper Slumber
Shatter
Hideous Laughter (Proceed to tell the joke)
Glitterdust

[StoryKeeper]

I'm not sure if it would count as cheese, but you could design a strategy to take advantage of the fighter's weaknesses. Let me just grab the PHB real quick...

Ok, now I'm imagining that the eight different playing fields will try to give you guys as much variation as possible. How exactly will the multiple fights thing work? Will you fight to the death eight times? Will you get your spells refreshed each time?

On to spell selection:
4th
Let's see, phantasmal killer has a save twice or die effect. The first goes after Will, but the second goes after fort so... still, unless he makes the first save, the spell still does a little damage anyway. Ah, here we go, stoneskin would be great for resisting some of his attacks, and dimension door is perfect for quick escapes and for repositioning yourself wherever you want to be. Various wall spells could also buy you some time in the right environments.
3rd
Deep Slumber would work on an 8th level character, and I think it goes after his will saves. Hold Person could buy you a few precious moments to reposition yourself. The obvious fire ball and lightning bolt are good standbys, but you'll probably want to invest in a magic item or two that can hold your blasting spells for you.
2nd
Invisibility could be great for not drawing his attention while you reposition your wizard. Summon Swarm would give you some damage resistant creatures to soften him up for you. You also have some slightly weaker blaster spells like melf's acid arrow and scorching ray. Not as good as fireballs, but decent.
1st
Mage Armor and Shield would make you slightly harder to hit if you're concerned with close-range combat. Enlarge or Reduce person could help bridge the gap in your physical abilities. In the right areas, grease could make him think twice about trying to use a certain pathway toward you. Ray of enfeeblement will weaken one of his most important stats, and Expeditious retreat will allow you blast and run more effectively.
0
Er... prestidigitation, because if you're reduced to using most of these, you can at least turn your blood yellow before you die.

Other Stuff:
Get lots of scrolls of your most important spells, and use rods or staffs or whatever you prefer to give you a good number of charges of fire ball or whatever. A rod of magic missile might actually prove more helpful than you'd think if he's buying some equipment to resist fire or lightning. magic missile is a harder form of energy to resist. You can go either way with the familiar. Either get a flying one to deliver touch spells that are too dangerous for you to deliver yourself, or don't get one at all. You might invest in an enchanted melee weapon for just-in-case, but that's up to you (as is all of this I guess.)

What He might Do:
He'll probably buy some stuff to give him resistance to various energy types and spell casting general. Just keep more than one type of damaging spell energy ready, and you shouldn't be bothered much by this. He may try to speed himself up with boots of speed or something of Expeditious retreat. Do you best to keep your distance, and remember your wall and grease spells. He'll probably have a powered-up melee weapon to take you down fast in close-range combat. Again keep your distance.
Also, becuase he knows he is the king of close-range combat, and he knows you know, and he knows you'll keep your distance because of this, he'll probably invest in a bow or crossbow with maybe a slight enchantment to hit you at a range. Just remember that you fireballs have more range than his bow, and that a stoneskin spells should ignore pretty much all of the arrow damage.

What is the terrain going to be like? Will there be other creatures that you'll have to worry about?

Edit: Oh! And don't forget fly! In open-ceiling areas, you'll be easily out of his reach, perhaps even if he has a bow, and you'll be able to bombard him with fireballs from above! In lower-ceiling areas, you'll probably ahve enough room to at least fly over his head, or at least not worry about jumping over a lava pool or something.

[shadow_archmagi]

Fighter will be sticking to the DMG, by the way. I'm pondering which metamagics to take. Widen is a must.

How does Solid Black Grease Tentacle Fog sound?

[Solo]

Forget Widen. Not needed.

Solid Fog as a scroll is good.

Don't Grease the tentacles, that just makes it easier for him to escape!


Now, young Padawan, I shall impart to you the greatest weapon of all: Misinformation.

Talk to the opponent about how great fireball is (I can blast you from 500 feet away!!1!) and say that you will roast him with Scorching Ray and shock him with your Lightening Bolt.

Since he'll expect a evoker, he'll protect himself against evocations, meaning his defenses against other schools, such as Enchantment, will be lower.

Use the metagame to your advantage!

For like Sun Zi said, you must create an uproar in the East, and strike from the West. When weak, feign strength, when strong, feign weakness! Always keep your enemy on his toes, and never let him see your plans until it is too late.

[shadow_archmagi]

Fighter will be sticking to the DMG and Complete Warrior/Adventurer, by the way. I'm pondering which metamagics to take. Widen is a must.

How does Solid Black Grease Tentacle Fog sound? I'm also considering one my of favorite undervalued spells: Phantom Steed.


Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: One quasi-real, horselike creature
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You conjure a Large, quasi-real, horselike creature. The steed can be ridden only by you or by the one person for whom you specifically created the mount. A phantom steed has a black head and body, gray mane and tail, and smoke-colored, insubstantial hooves that make no sound. It has what seems to be a saddle, bit, and bridle. It does not fight, but animals shun it and refuse to attack it.

The mount has an AC of 18 (-1 size, +4 natural armor, +5 Dex) and 7 hit points +1 hit point per caster level. If it loses all its hit points, the phantom steed disappears. A phantom steed has a speed of 20 feet per caster level, to a maximum of 240 feet. It can bear its rider’s weight plus up to 10 pounds per caster level.


I don't believe theres any items that allow you to get 160 base speed. The eight fights are considered to be separate fights between the character's identical twin brother who coincidentally learned all the same spells and is the same level except happened to take a wrong turn and end up in a desert instead. Or a forest, or whatever.

[Cuddly]

*snip*

Mostly bad advice.

Either no save debuffs, or save or dies (real ones, not crap ones like Phantasmal Killer) are the way to go. Don't even think about wasting your precious spell slots on crap like fireball or lightning bolt. Specialize in Conjuration or Transmutation, and ban Evocation and Illusion (since the fighter will metagame any illusion spells you cast).Being a focused specialist gets you even more spell slots; in which case you should probably ban enchantment, too. Once your DM realizes that starting 100' away from each other means you're 60' up in the air and invisible every round, you'll want to be able to start winning initiative (so go with the improved init advice above).

In case you get stuck in a sticky situation, you'll want to have lots of ranks in concentration. Combat casting would be worthwhile. Normally you'll hear take skill focus, but for the limited purposes of this battle, combat casting is better.

Get scrolls of fly, imp invis, and other useful stuff. Don't bother casting offensive spells out of an item; it's not worth it. Make sure to pump your int as high as possible. I recommend Grey Elf and a headband of intellect. Since you'll be able to end the battle in one or two rounds after you buff yourself, casting those from scrolls is plenty of time (5 rounds of flight, 7 rounds of improved invis).


[edit]
Solid fog won't be good unless combined with black tentacles, and even then, it's pretty meh for a solo wizard who has to kill an opponent, especially at your low level. I recommend against it. It blocks line of sight, and, incidentally, line of effect. I guess if you need 4 rounds to buff (why??), it'd be good.

If stuck in close proximity with the fighter, you should make sure you have mirror image and displacement type spells handy.

[Solo]

Make sure to read my second post in this thread up there. You might have missed it by re-posting.

And listen to the Eminent Figures in the Playground.

[shadow_archmagi]

Make sure to read my second post in this thread up there. You might have missed it by re-posting.

And listen to the Eminent Figures in the Playground.

Whoops. Didn't mean to double post. Also, I'd been wondering about that. grease has a grapple modifier?

[Solo]

Whoops. Didn't mean to double post. Also, I'd been wondering about that. grease has a grapple modifier?

+10 to Escape Artist checks.

[Cuddly]

Hey Solo, what are you taking orgo for? Are you chem or pre-med? Bio?

[Solo]

Hey Solo, what are you taking orgo for? Are you chem or pre-med? Bio?

Off topic, but potential chem major.

[tyckspoon]

If you really want to try and prove the crazy versatility of the Wizard, variety is probably the way to go.. try using a different one of these methods in each fight. Level 4 spells, excellent choices by school:

Abjuration: Stoneskin is the leader here. Cast it and some other buffs (Animal's Whatever, Shield, Mage Armor) if you have time or are allowed to have stuff pre-cast and then go into melee and try to beat the Fighter to death with a quarterstaff. Probably the most likely strategy to get you to lose, but it'll be a lot harder for the Fighter than your DM probably thinks it should be.

Conjuration: Excellent choices at this level. Cast Black Tentacles; unless your opponent decided to focus on Grappling, they should have an equal or better Grapple check. Laugh as the Fighter either gets beaten up and held down by your spell (throw some Fireballs or something in there for good measure) or just gets slowed down.

Dimension Door- excellent spell, but not a fight-winner. If you want to show it off, let the Fighter grapple you and then cast it to escape. Or just use it to move over 700 feet away and then ping the Fighter with other Long range spells like Fireball and Acid Arrow while he approaches.

Solid Fog: At least 2 turns where the Fighter can't do much of anything besides slowly walk out of it. Fill it with Glitterdusts, Fireballs, or other area spells during those rounds.

Summon Monster IV: Cast it to get 1d3 from the Summon Monster III list. Call up Celestial Hippogriffs (roll well.) Watch (hopefully) 3 Large flying eagle-horses tear the Fighter to bits.

Divination: Nothing special, no surprise. Divination generally isn't a combative school.

Enchantment:
Charm Monster: Ding, fight's over. Will have a higher DC than Charm Person, otherwise Charm Person can be used to the same effect unless the Fighter is an odd race.
Confusion: Works better against a group, so that the 'Attack Nearest Creature' possibility doesn't mean 'Attacks You.' Still a good disabler, but for a solo enemy I'd go with Charm.
Crushing Despair: Nice debuff, especially for the penalty to saves. You have stronger options, but this is a good choice if you want to make a longer fight.

Evocation: 4th is a good level for Evocation, interestingly. Ice Storm slows movement, Fire Shield has useful if situational defensive bonuses, Shout does sonic, deafens, and attacks Fort instead of Reflex.. and those aren't the best. For this fight, I suggest...
Resilient Sphere: Trap your luckless opponent for up to min/level with a Reflex save. He can do nothing about it once trapped unless he has a teleportation effect available. Once he's successfully trapped, do whatever you want. Summon up a horde of critters and dismiss the Sphere once you have enough. Alternately, use the hemisphere option of Wall of Ice to do the same thing. Less reliable, as ice is relatively easy to break through.

Illusion: Rainbow Pattern, Phantasmal Killer, and Shadow Conjuration are all decent spells. The clear winner of this level, however, is Greater Invisibility. Use it and do whatever you want for 8 rounds in good safety (watch out for Dust of Appearance- try not to let the Fighter get within 10 feet of you. Flying would help with that.)

Necromancy: Another neat level. Try out Fear to make the Fighter drop his weapon and run away, Bestow Curse to debuff the heck out of him (the 50% chance to do nothing can be especially harsh, and the -4 penalty option makes your other spells much more likely to work) or Enervation for general sucking. Although Enervation needs some metamagic to reach its full potential, it being no-save and the widespread debuffing effect of negative levels makes it very attractive.

Transmutation: No question, Polymorph is your winner here. Turn into an 8-headed hydra and eat the Fighter. Or a troll or a dire lion or a treant.. lots of good options here, and those aren't even the most abusive possibilities (well, ok, the hydra might be. There's not a heck of a lot else that will give you 8 attacks at level 8 at any decent hit bonus.)

[Eldariel]

Is he forced to be a straight Fighter? If so, I'd imagine the worst case scenario would be a fighter along the following lines:
Dragonborn Wood Elf (or whatever - something that grants relevant stat bonuses as Dragonborn removes everything else) - Wings
Feats include:
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper
Leap Attack
Resolute (ACF from Complete Champion: Immediate Action, lose half your BAB to add to Will-saves; +4 on these levels)
Quick Draw
Improved Initiative
Mage Slayer (or something useful; I suppose he could trip you and then utilize Mage Slayer but bleh - maybe he could be a Catfolk for Catfolk Pounce or something; if he can come up with a way to Pounce, he can deal sufficient damage to be lethal)


Leap Attack PA for 8 deals 32 points of extra damage. In case he uses a Greatsword, the base damage for that would be 7, and his Strength can, at max, be 26 (20 base (+2 Str race) + 2 levels + 4 spell), which leads to 12 more, so the total damage would be 51 plus whatever weapon enhancements he can cough up (probably no more than +7 damage). As a level 8 Wizard with 24 Con (just an assumption), you've got HP in the 70s (21.5 for 8 Wizard-levels + 56 for Con), which will be plenty sufficient; even with mere 18 Con, you'll have 54, which is just an Improved Toughness away from being sufficient; focusing on Con would hamper your offense, so may be one needs to burn a feat instead.

I can't see a way for him to make that kinds of damage turn 1 with a straight Fighter (feats don't really provide Pounce so he's kinda limited to one attack). He can't get Thicket of Blades in time to complete the lockdown. Alternatively, he could go for some Knockdown Dungeon Crasher build, but I'm not gonna do the math on which is more efficient right now; I'm fairly sure that wouldn't kill you either.

Grappling is a likely option, but really, metamagiced teleportation of any kind, Abrupt Jaunt or even just Greasing yourself should prevent that from being a problem.


He probably can't go first consistently with Hummingbird et al. on your side, but you can't, likewise probably, reach 18 over him either so it'll have to be rolled, which means that you need to be prepared for the idea of him going first. Abrupt Jaunt solves much and Tumble crossclass (along with Jump for synergies and maybe item bonuses) could also be helpful.

But yea, as long as you get to act, you should be golden; your spells allow you to pretty much bog him down. The usual suspects: Glitterdust, Web, Grease, etc. are all very applicable.


EDIT: Of course he may try an Archer too. While Windwall helps, the fact that he can probably simply move to the other side or fly to meet you above the wall means that it probably won't solve the problem entirely. An archer's damage potential on those levels would probably be 5.5 (Greatbow) + 5 Strength + 4 Specializations x 3 (Rapid Shot, all 3 probably hit) for 15 per arrow > 42 per turn without crits if all hit, and some 7 or so from the weapon (Magebane) for 63. Again, you should be able to live through the first volley (especially since one is likely to miss) and subsequently end the fight even if he wins the Initiative.

[Solo]

If you really want to try and prove the crazy versatility of the Wizard, variety is probably the way to go.. try using a different one of these methods in each fight.

Second, move to table?

[shadow_archmagi]

How does this spell list look?

Zero-level Wizard spells: 4 per day
Irrelevant
First-level Wizard spells: 6 (4+2) per day
Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease
Second-level Wizard spells: 4 (3+1) per day
Acid Arrow, Web, Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter
Third-level Wizard spells: 4 (3+1) per day
Fly, Wind Wall, Phantom Steed, Deep Slumber
Fourth-level Wizard spells: 3 (2+1) per day
Solid Fog. Greater Invisibility. Enervation


I'm also taking a wand of fireball.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Fighters have bad Ref and Will saves so your spells need to target that weakness.

In Core a Raven (+7 to Spot) or a Hawk (+16 to Spot) familiar flying overhead to spot him first in most terrains outdoors.

A Dragon magazine Humming Bird familiar gives your wizard Improved Initiative.

Preferably Invisibility Greater and Flying when the terrain and distance permits after he is spotted by your familiar.

Memorize or have a scroll of Detect Invisibility in case he has a potion or two of invisibility himself if Detect Magic doesn't work for finding active working Illusion spell auras.

Charm Person is strong making him your friend.

Color Spray is strong if he gets so close you need to use it.

Glitter Dust (Will) is pretty strong.

Ray of Enfeeblement Wands are only 750 gp for 50 charges and nice if flying invisibly or he is trapped inside a Web (Ref) or blinded by a Glitterdust (Will) after a few he will be to weak to move trapped inside his armor.

Deep Slumber (Will) is strong at 10 HD but not a good choice if he turns out to be a elf or half elf or other obscure race wearing a Hat of Disguise to appear not to be a half elf or elf or the reverse another race pretending to be a elf or half elf).

Edit Mirror Image is nice if he has a Potion of See Invisibility.

[Solo]

Decent, but the damaging spells are not going to be useful. Replace them with control spells and then after he's crippled, CDG him with a scythe.

[Cuddly]

How high can you get your saves? DC 22 with 22 int, 4th level spell, and both spell focus feats?

Versus what, 1d20+2(base)+2(feat)+3 (16 wisdom for some unfathomable reason)+2 (cloak) = 1d20+9. So he has to roll a 13 or better vs. your 4th level spells. Most likely, he'll have a lower will save than that.

You're going to crush him.

[Eldariel]

How high can you get your saves? DC 22 with 22 int, 4th level spell, and both spell focus feats?

Versus what, 1d20+2(base)+2(feat)+3 (16 wisdom for some unfathomable reason)+2 (cloak) = 1d20+9. So he has to roll a 13 or better vs. your 4th level spells. Most likely, he'll have a lower will save than that.

You're going to crush him.

Resolute adds 4 more to his Will-save, so he'd be around +13 if he focuses on it. Also, Mageslayer adds one. I'd say, if he's serious, he'll have +11 - +13 Will and about the same for Fort. All spells targeting those saves will be about 50/50, maybe a bit below. Btw, if optimizing Int, we should reach 24 (20 base - say Lesser Tiefling; +2 levels and a +2 item) for +7.

[Cuddly]

I was assuming a 16 base in int; but if you start with 18, go up two age categories, take some race, two from levels, and two from item, you get 26, so +8.

But then, that's -3 to your physical stats. Not a place I'd want to be (unless I was a druid).

[Eldariel]

Precisely, which is why one should probably assume this guy stays young; Con and Dex are both somewhat relevant. 28 point buy; hmm, you could get 18 Int, 14 Con, 14 Dex with all the points (with adjustments leaving them at 16 Dex and 20 Int respectively). Alternatively, Con could be 16 at the expense of the Int, so I guess it's really up to how much one values those 8 HP vs. +1 spell DCs and an extra slot at some level.

[Emperor Tippy]

He probably can't go first consistently with Hummingbird et al. on your side, but you can't, likewise probably, reach 18 over him either so it'll have to be rolled, which means that you need to be prepared for the idea of him going first. Abrupt Jaunt solves much and Tumble crossclass (along with Jump for synergies and maybe item bonuses) could also be helpful.
Neverskitter: +5
Humming Bird: +4
Natural Link sub level: +4 (doubles familiar bonus)
Improved Initiative: +4

Thats +17 pre dex. Grey Elf gives +2 dex for +1 Initiative and unless the fighter is an archer your dex should be higher than his.

Hmm. The fighter should go Krinth Dragon Born. +4 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Cha (yes Krinth get +2 Con, -2 Cha and are LA +0). Either grab the Wings or Mind for the Ex (Mind gives immunity to Deep Slumber and Hold Person).

Come to think of it you should grab Dragon Born as well. +2 Con, -2 Dex balances out the elf attributes and you pick up flight for no real loss. Since you can't do the chaos shuffle at level 8 anyways the Elf bonus feats are irrelevant. The sleep immunity is also no great loss.

[Eldariel]

Yes, you'll have a huge chance of winning the Initiative, but Fighter with even just 14 Dex (sounds probable enough) stands at +6, which means that if he rolls ~14 higher (exact numbers vary on many factors - seems like he'll have about 6% chance of winning the initiative with the numbers in question) than you, he wins (point being, he can still win).

I don't see why Fighter should max his Con; he isn't going to lose through damage anyways and his Fort-saves are already good. If anything, I think he needs to max. his Dex to maximize the chance of starting, along with Strength to maximize the chance of killing the BBEW in one round. Also, Wings seem natural as he can ramp up the Will-save enough to make Hold Person et co. a bad plan, while getting airborne without Wings is just damn expensive, and would consume most of his WPL while leaving him vulnerable to simple Dispel Magic. Even Archer may want to fly due to the likely Wind Wall.

[Deepblue706]

How high can you get your saves? DC 22 with 22 int, 4th level spell, and both spell focus feats?

Versus what, 1d20+2(base)+2(feat)+3 (16 wisdom for some unfathomable reason)+2 (cloak) = 1d20+9. So he has to roll a 13 or better vs. your 4th level spells. Most likely, he'll have a lower will save than that.

You're going to crush him.

Well, for two non-Fighter feats he can get CON mod to Will Saves (Endurance, Steadfast Determination). If he plays a Dwarf, that's another +2 to all saves against spells and spell-like abilities (racial). Oh, and +1 since Dwarves have a +2 CON bonus. Fighters can get their saves up to a good level, it's just it costs way much more than it should.

Edit: or hell, that Krinth Dragon Born thing seems to beef that save up quite well, too. Would Dwarf Dragon Born be viable?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Heward's Handy Haversack to hold your things especially one shots like scrolls and potions.

Craft Wondrous Item would be a strong feat choice for increasing PC magic wealth if the PC isn't penalized a level from 8 to 7 for using it.

Interesting Craft Wondrous Items and would basically double your PC wealth if most applied to Craft Wondrous Items:

Amulet of Health +2 is 4,000 gp and gives the PC an extra 8 HP, nice with a False Life spell, scroll (150 gp) or Potion (300 gp) for more HP just in case your PC is surprised during the duel.

Boots of Striding and Springing are only 5,500 gp and increase your base land speed by +10 which should make your wizard PC faster than any fighter except a Barbarian since the fighter probably won't be moving slow in heavy armor for the duel. Nice if the DM is really clever and surprises the wizard.

A Bag of Tricks Gray at 3,000 gp is nice and a Tan one at 6,000 gp is really strong (Pull a Brown Bear, Lion, Heavy Warhorse, Tiger and Rhinocerous) to combat the fighter and pull out another if one is defeated.

A Bead of Force could be interesting although pricey at 3,000 gp basically trapping if he fails a Ref save DC16. Same holds true for the fighter it is an expensive one shot at these levels since your PC could easily have Dispel Magic memorized or available via a scroll.

[Hal]

I like Dimension Hop (PHB2). Yes, it has all those things people tell you to avoid: Will save, SR, and it's a touch spell.

But, should you get in a jam and find yourself in melee range with the guy, it can be used to move him (or yourself) 20 feet away (as an 8th level caster, 5'/2lvls). While I'm sure there are better methods for moving yourself, I just like the utility of being able to dump him into a terrain hazard (greased area, off a cliff, into a lake, take your pick).

[skywalker]

I have no strategy or build advice beyond what the others have already said, however:

Get him to bet actual money on the outcome of the battles.

Be like 50 Cent, and laugh straight to the bank.

[CASTLEMIKE]

For the purposes of the duel it sounds like he could have a few 300 gp first level talismans or Faith Tokens that cast a single first level spell at CL1. He probably won't but that should be factored in.

Protection from Evil would be a strong choice against enchantment type spells at 1 minute or level (Basically 10 rounds) Only 50 gp as a potion. Lots of other interesting spell choices.

See Invisibility Potion only costs 300 gp and works for a half hour at CL3.

An Alter Self potion could give him flying for 300 gp (Winged Elf) and Planetouched would open up quite a few more options.

A Mirror Images potion is only 300 gp.

All these items give him options and require you to target him with a Dispel Magic to make thme go away.

[emeraldstreak]

See Invisibility Potion only costs 300 gp and works for a half hour at CL3.

An Alter Self potion could give him flying for 300 gp (Winged Elf) and Planetouched would open up quite a few more options.

A Mirror Images potion is only 300 gp.


There are no such potions. Reason: personal range spells are not potion-able.

[Emperor Tippy]

Edit: or hell, that Krinth Dragon Born thing seems to beef that save up quite well, too. Would Dwarf Dragon Born be viable?
Yeah but he gets hit with the dwarfs movement penalty while loosing the ability to move in Heavy Armor without a speed reduction.

Krinth Dragonborn gives the exact same bonuses as Dwarf Dragonborn without the 20 foot base speed.

[CASTLEMIKE]

There are no such potions. Reason: personal range spells are not potion-able.

I disagree it depends on the game:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm


A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target





.

[Ganurath]

Fly, Wind Wall if needed, and a Wand of Deep Slumber. Spam until the Fight drops, then (the fun part) pick the sleeping baby up, flying upward until you're at two hundred feet.

Then let go.

[Cuddly]

I disagree it depends on the game:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm


A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target





.

Look at the part about creating potions in the making magic item sections. No personal spells allowed. It's explicit. A custom made wondrous item, like elixer of true seeing, would work. But then, so would a ring of continuous true strike....

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Even if you beat his dinky fighter to death with your forum-aided super wizard build, it won't change the fact that the guy's had fun games with lower-powered wizards, and will most likely be set in his ways. (That is, until one of his actual games gets broken to hell by a wizard.)

[StoryKeeper]

Mostly bad advice.


Ouch:smalleek: ... though probably correct.

[Cuddly]

Ouch:smalleek: ... though probably correct.

Sorry :smallbiggrin:
Didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

Generally, dealing damage is fairly lame, when with the same action, the wizard makes the fighter lay down and take a nice nap. A nice dirt nap.

[StoryKeeper]

Fair enough. I was afraid that too many spells that looked for alternative ways to end the fight would be too cheezy, and he did say they were cutting down on the cheeze...

I do really like the idea of dropping him from a few hundred feet in the air though :smallbiggrin:

[CASTLEMIKE]

Look at the part about creating potions in the making magic item sections. No personal spells allowed. It's explicit. A custom made wondrous item, like elixer of true seeing, would work. But then, so would a ring of continuous true strike....

Valid point but I did qualify my post since not all games go that deeply into the rules. All games do not prohibit their use. Quite a few don't go past the SRD Potions and Oils rules for third level or lower spells which I linked to or page 229 of the DMG. Every game applies the rules just a little differently and little things like this should be clarified beforehand so the players are not blindsided. Doable with prorated Talismans or Drow House Insignia instead of potions to get the cost down to a reasonable level.

The opponent believes he has a good chance and he might with good tactics that account for standard wizard tactics that utilize invisibility and fly. Maybe he plans to use scrolls with a feat like Godsight from Lost Empires of Faerun or the Magical Training feat from PGtF since either would grant the PC the Read Magic cantrip.

[AKA_Bait]

You might also want to prepare a Dispel Magic just in case swordboy thinks he's clever and buys a potion of fly.

[Oslecamo]

You know, for such a powerfull class, people surely ask a lot of questions about how to build strong wizards.

One would almost think that you could randomly select the wizard spells and abilities and still pwn everything in his way with everything they claim about them.

[tyckspoon]

One would almost think that you could randomly select the wizard spells and abilities and still pwn everything in his way with everything they claim about them.

Nah, it'd be possible to randomly select a more or less useless spell list, especially if you're working with all spells printed- there are enough non-combative or very situationally useless spells that you might not have anything worth using, not to mention the ones that are just outright bad. But there are also enough good and excellent spells that you'll probably have something useful to cast. Unlike non-casters who might undergo the same process with feat selection; I think the dross of stuff like skill-boosters for unneeded skills, Weapon Focus, and Monkey Grip outnumbers the good feats by a fair margin.

[Frosty]

Wizards are hard-work, very high rewards class.
Your sentiment is more appropriate for a Druid, which is a "I take natural spell", very high rewards class.

[Solo]

You know, for such a powerfull class, people surely ask a lot of questions about how to build strong wizards.

One would almost think that you could randomly select the wizard spells and abilities and still pwn everything in his way with everything they claim about them.

There there. No need to get bitter over it.

[Oslecamo]

I just wanted to point out that there's a world of diference from the caster played from a starter gamer, and the caster played by the guy who had nothing better to do with his life than decorate every monster out there stat by stat so he can abuse summons/calls/polymorphs/wildshapes and always target their weack points with the right spells.

The game is much more interesting when you don't know every single detail of the world around you.

[Solo]

I just wanted to point out that there's a world of difference from the caster played from a starter gamer, and the caster played by the guy who had nothing better to do with his life than decorate every monster out there stat by stat so he can abuse summons/calls/polymorph/wildshape and always target their weak points with the right spells.


You should try harder.



ps. I have taken the liberty of correcting your grammar while quoting you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First off, stats. Go Halfling or Elf, but probably Halfling will be better. +2 to Dex, no Con penalty, penalty to pointless Str stat, and an additional +1 to rays from Small size.

Non-cheeze Core options:

Enervation. Seriously, most Fighter builds have crap-tastic touch attacks, due to armor. Maybe a 13 at most. Here's 1d4+1 negative levels. Seriously, two of these can end the fight. If you want to go Necro specialized with banning of evocation and something else, this is going to be a bread-and-butter way to drop all his saves, and probably kill him in two to three shots. Scroll some of these.

Dimension Door. Must-have in case he does close with you. Keep it in mem, you might not be able to get to a scroll.

Hold Person. If you want, Heighten this up to your highest spell level to increaes DC's.

Slow. Mostly a waste of an action. By the time it will save your bacon, he should already be dead. Not a bad idea, though, in case he makes some saves.

Greater Invisibility. You can't hit what you can't see. Scroll it and pop it off first turn.

Black Tentacles. Depends on the Fighter's build. If the Fighter is built for grappling (not a bad idea when facing a wizard, if you can close), it may not be as effective. Still, not bad at keeping him in place.

Fly. You can't hit what you can't reach.

Ray of Exhaustion. You can't charge if you can't run. You can't run if you're Fatigued, much less Exhausted, so even if he makes his save, he's still hampered.

Mirror Image. Must have. Even if he closes, he's most likely not going to be able to hit you.

Deep Slumber. Will save or very dead.

Glitterdust. Will save or blind.

Web. Reflex save or stuck. Even if you make it, move like Solid Fog.

Mage Armor, Shield. You probably won't have time to pop it off. You're too busy defending yourself by making him dead.

Core Cheezy ways to beat him:

Polymorph. Do I need to go on?

[Jayabalard]

Conversation goes something like this:I really hope that's not how the actual conversation went... it makes you sound kind of like a twit.

A wizard beating a fighter one on one or vice-versa doesn't really prove anything about how overpowered or underpowered the classes are.


Even if you beat his dinky fighter to death with your forum-aided super wizard build, it won't change the fact that the guy's had fun games with lower-powered wizards, and will most likely be set in his ways. (That is, until one of his actual games gets broken to hell by a wizard.)Agreed.

[Solo]

A wizard beating a fighter one on one or vice-versa doesn't really prove anything about how overpowered or underpowered the classes are.

A wizard beating a series of diverse challenges better than a fighter would though, I imagine.