Does Xykon know?

[paladinofshojo]

What, he could be just wasting his time torturing the paladin that he forgot all about the gate and let Redcloak meddle around with all the "diplomatic", "martial", and "commodity" affairs, and know all along that Redcloak is just stalling to try to build a stronger homefront. It may be a good idea, since if they leave now, the Azurites will probably take back their city from the disorganized hobbos, and Xykon should have a back up layer, or maybe he didn't see how time flies when your torturing a paladin (I know most DM's love it aswell :smallbiggrin: ) It's :xykon:, I doubt we will ever know what he's thinking....

[Helanna]

From SoD:

:xykon: "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

So it is very possible that he knows what Redcloak is doing. But he doesn't care, because, hey, he has undead gladitorial entertainment! After all, Xykon isn't in much of a hurry, is he? He has the attention span of a four-year-old, so it's not like it's hard to distract him from the Gates.

[Alex Warlorn]

From SoD:

:xykon: "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

So it is very possible that he knows what Redcloak is doing. But he doesn't care, because, hey, he has undead gladitorial entertainment! After all, Xykon isn't in much of a hurry, is he? He has the attention span of a four-year-old, so it's not like it's hard to distract him from the Gates.

You ninja'd me!

Yes, that quote defines how dangerous Xykon really is. Because you can't tell when he's really being foolish, and when he's just play acting the fool (I wonder if he does).

And Xykon is going to live, er continue forever unless someone takes him down, so what's a few more months?

Xykon knows he needs Redcloak, so he's perfectly willing to let Redcloak "play his little games" as long as they don't lose sight of their true goal.

I just wonder if they've already decided when they'll kill their Mystic instead of keeping her around for her spare undead and fire power.

[Remirach]

Xykon has a short attention span, but that means he's MORE anxious to pack up and leave. He didn't want to stay in the first (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html) place, he's bored (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) now, and what Redcloak's working on has nothing to do with the Gates or the Plan. What Redcloak may want to do in his free time is one thing, but he's purposefully keeping Xykon's own feet nailed to the floor with a deception.

I don't think he knows. He is of strictly average intelligence for the most part, and Redcloak's story sounds plausible. The "don't confuse knowing with caring" scene involved a story that was anything but, and Redcloak HAS gotten away with lying to him about other matters. (As he alludes to in 548, "among other things.")

[Dragon48]

Why would they kill Tsukiko? If they choose not to tell her about the gates, she can still stay at the city with her wights and be second in command under whatever Hobgoblin that will run the city.

If they tell her and she chooses to join them (and not betray them once they reach the gate, she isn't powerful enough and they will probably won't tell her the key to rule the world with the gate, just that the gates exist), she will only benefit and Xykon and RC will get extra help.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I think it is possible he could be aware that Redcloak is dragging his feet, but probably not that he has an ulterior motive in doing so.

At any rate I don't think he is too bothered since he hasn't quite run out of things to entertain him yet. If he had he would probably have overruled Redcloak and moved on.

[Charles Phipps]

You ninja'd me!

Yes, that quote defines how dangerous Xykon really is. Because you can't tell when he's really being foolish, and when he's just play acting the fool (I wonder if he does).

The difference between a Clown and a Fool is that the Clown knows better.

Which is why Clowns like the Joker can be scary.



I don't think he knows. He is of strictly average intelligence for the most part, and Redcloak's story sounds plausible. The "don't confuse knowing with caring" scene involved a story that was anything but, and Redcloak HAS gotten away with lying to him about other matters. (As he alludes to in 548, "among other things.")

Xykon is anything but average intelligence. I think people just have difficulty understanding that he doesn't honestly even care about ruling the world all that much. It's just the "thing" he does.

Like Cobra Commander. It's not whether he succeeds or not, it's that as long as he has a giant Cobra shaped throne in the middle of a Amazon Rain Forrest Ruin filled with exploding balloons containing hallucinogenic gas.

You know, its not the destination but the journey that matters.

[Remirach]

Xykon is anything but average intelligence.
Calling it "strictly average" is, if anything, generous. He is often creative, but he is genuinely just not all that smart.


I think people just have difficulty understanding that he doesn't honestly even care about ruling the world all that much. It's just the "thing" he does.

Like Cobra Commander. It's not whether he succeeds or not, it's that as long as he has a giant Cobra shaped throne in the middle of a Amazon Rain Forrest Ruin filled with exploding balloons containing hallucinogenic gas.

You know, its not the destination but the journey that matters.
However accurate this may or may not be as a character assessment, it doesn't change the fact that he's not getting anything productive accomplished solely because of Redcloak's personal issues. Being "whimsically evil" at times doesn't mean he'd want to kick back and WASTE TIME for the benefit of a bunch of hobgoblins and their stupid wanna-be "state."

[King of Nowhere]

Xykon may both know or not know, we can't tell for sure. But I think he don't know, because otherwise he would try to leave Azure city immediately just to make Redcloak suffer. He loves doing that kind of sadistic things, and he would surely enjoy forcing Redcloak to leave knowing his hobgoblins will be all killed when the good guys try to retake the city and he did all for nothing. Of course, for what we know now he may know and not care because he has the gladiators.

[NerfTW]

Like Cobra Commander. It's not whether he succeeds or not, it's that as long as he has a giant Cobra shaped throne in the middle of a Amazon Rain Forrest Ruin filled with exploding balloons containing hallucinogenic gas.

You know, its not the destination but the journey that matters.

Not to derail, but Cobra Commander actually ran an entire town called Springfield that was just a massive cover for thier base. Later he made an artificial island. But originally, he was pretty close to taking over the world the Microsoft way.

[TehJhu]

Calling it "strictly average" is, if anything, generous. He is often creative, but he is genuinely just not all that smart.

I think you're underestimating him.

It wouldn't suprise me at all if he knew RC was up to something. He proved in SoD that he thinks his little green goblin pal could betray him.

[hanzo66]

Xykon seems to be the type who, while not highly educated or sophisticated is rather crafty and cannot be called a complete moron per se.

[Remirach]

I think you're underestimating him.
I could be. But I'm largely going along with what the text itself suggests.

:roach: Fifth-grade reading level, here you come!

A lot of intelligent people underestimate Xykon to their downfall (Xavion, Fyron, Dorukan, Redcloak, even Roy), but it is almost always because he turns out to be more powerful than they expect, more underhanded than they expect, or honestly just crueler than they expect. Not smarter, per se.


It wouldn't suprise me at all if he knew RC was up to something. He proved in SoD that he thinks his little green goblin pal could betray him.
Could, but doesn't seem likely to, after the end. He tells Redcloak as much. He has every confidence Redcloak is going to keep on being his bitch and doing as he's told. This foot-dragging incident isn't a full-out betrayal, either, he is not trying to sabotage Xykon's ambitions, just stalling for time.

In order for Xykon to see through this, he'd also have to be seeing through what was certainly an extremely convincing deception to the readers. Redcloak's suspected for some time that O-Chul is in fact useless to their aims, but he puts on a show of outrage about Xykon's carelessness with his life. He even continues to play the fanatic persona in front of O-Chul himself, which allows O-Chul to see through the primary hole in the logic he's using -- by now, they it is indeed the most likely explanation that the paladin knows nothing.

It's possible Xykon suspects something's afoot -- anything's possible -- but if in order for that suspicion to look likely, we have to assume Xykon is SMART, then I don't buy it.

[chibibar]

The thing is that Xykon will find ways to entertain himself. He knows what is going on .He is not clueless :) (as seen from the comic)

Spoiler from SoD

Xykon's dead was to turn into a Lich so he doesn't die. Xykon is practically immortal as long the "soul hidey thing" is safe. Xykon is along for the ride to find great power and live forever. Redcloak needs Xykon more than the other way around (IMO) Xykon is probably the most powerful magic user right now and he is content on that. The gates would be nice but side track entertainment is nicer ;)

[David Argall]

SoD "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing" We have seen Redcloak "fool" Xykon for a long time and on important matters. & it turned out the lich knew perfectly well. Accordingly, we can not say with any confidence that Redcloak is any less aware now. It is perfectly consistent with past behavior for Xykon to let Redcloak play with his city for pretty much any period of time.

Now Xykon should be aware Redcloak is trying to string him along. He knows Redcloak wants to make Azure City a permanent hobgoblin city and that's a project that takes time. He also should know that Redcloak should have gotten all the information that O'Chul had months ago. Xykon should know. He is just not really bored at the moment, and so he will let Redcloak screw around until he is.

[EvilJames]

Sod Spoiler

Xykon also expressed that he doesn't care if Redcloak lies to him or trys to hide things from him, It's when he refuses a direct order that Xykon lays a moral bitch slap on him.

[Remirach]

The thing is that Xykon will find ways to entertain himself. He knows what is going on .He is not clueless :) (as seen from the comic)

Spoiler from SoD

Xykon's dead was to turn into a Lich so he doesn't die. Xykon is practically immortal as long the "soul hidey thing" is safe. Xykon is along for the ride to find great power and live forever. Redcloak needs Xykon more than the other way around (IMO) Xykon is probably the most powerful magic user right now and he is content on that. The gates would be nice but side track entertainment is nicer ;)
Without Xykon, Redcloak has no Arcane caster. Without Redcloak, Xykon has no PLAN. Xykon never aimed for immortality, either, in fact if you'll recall his original reasons for desiring world domination centered around him building a LEGACY. When he found out that being a lich deprived him of the little things that he'd always maintained were the real point behind the villainy, he was pissed. It was only the promise of the Plan and the knowledge that he couldn't kill Redcloak without having gone through the change for nothing that prevented him from terminating the alliance and both goblin brothers on the spot. My point? Xykon's very serious about world domination. Side track entertainment is only that.


SoD "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing" We have seen Redcloak "fool" Xykon for a long time and on important matters. & it turned out the lich knew perfectly well. Accordingly, we can not say with any confidence that Redcloak is any less aware now. It is perfectly consistent with past behavior for Xykon to let Redcloak play with his city for pretty much any period of time.

We've also seen him fool Xykon at the very start of their alliance. You really think Xykon would still be going along with this Gate nonsense if he knew NO ONE can control the Snarl? The fact that he's been caught out in one lie -- a lie that was transparently obvious, by the way, oh yes my dead brother's on the ground, he fell trying to help you, and I'm just standing here not trying to heal or raise him even though I'm a cleric? -- means he's not infallible. Incidentally, what past behavior is it that Xykon allowing this would be consistent with? He let Redcloak go back and play in Right-Eye's village for a time, but he was deciphering Serini's diary, which was USEFUL work in getting the Plan back on track.


Now Xykon should be aware Redcloak is trying to string him along. He knows Redcloak wants to make Azure City a permanent hobgoblin city and that's a project that takes time. He also should know that Redcloak should have gotten all the information that O'Chul had months ago. Xykon should know. He is just not really bored at the moment, and so he will let Redcloak screw around until he is. Why should he know? Redcloak's aim to get info on Girard's Gate is something completely worth sticking around for, and he knows Redcloak isn't going to try to sabotage his own plan. Why would he have any idea how long it should take an interrogator to get info out of a prisoner immune to fear?

[Charles Phipps]

Not to derail, but Cobra Commander actually ran an entire town called Springfield that was just a massive cover for thier base. Later he made an artificial island. But originally, he was pretty close to taking over the world the Microsoft way.

I actually prefer Cartoon Cobra Commander. Cartoon Cobra Commander may have been literally turned into a Snake but it wasn't until Devil's Due that he actually seriously came close to taking over the world. The MASS Effect Device, destroying the world's oil supply, destroying all the world's money, and so on.

The comics were more serious but that doesn't mean they were more fun.

[Charles Phipps]

In order for Xykon to see through this, he'd also have to be seeing through what was certainly an extremely convincing deception to the readers. Redcloak's suspected for some time that O-Chul is in fact useless to their aims, but he puts on a show of outrage about Xykon's carelessness with his life. He even continues to play the fanatic persona in front of O-Chul himself, which allows O-Chul to see through the primary hole in the logic he's using -- by now, they it is indeed the most likely explanation that the paladin knows nothing.

Actually, I think Redcloak's plan is blindingly obvious. Xykon knows that Redcloak wants to save Goblinkind and he knows that his subordinate is aware that Xykon hates Goblins with a passion. It's not exactly rocket science. The fun part is that Redcloak doesn't realize he's a truly awful schemer.

As for controlling the Snarl....I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon isn't aware that its impossible to control.

Xykon might just want to watch the world destroyed.

[Remirach]

Actually, I think Redcloak's plan is blindingly obvious. Xykon knows that Redcloak wants to save Goblinkind and he knows that his subordinate is aware that Xykon hates Goblins with a passion. It's not exactly rocket science. The fun part is that Redcloak doesn't realize he's a truly awful schemer.
Wait, wait, wait... did you just say that Jirix is aware that Xykon hates goblins with a passion? How could he know, when it's not true? Xykon doesn't CARE about goblins. For a long time, Redcloak didn't care about the hobgoblins, so Xykon would have to know that his attitude has radically changed.


As for controlling the Snarl....I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon isn't aware that its impossible to control.

Xykon might just want to watch the world destroyed.
He's not nostalgic at all for that potential coronoation incense (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html)? He says himself he's only gonna destroy the world if he gets really, really bored. I don't really doubt him, myself.

[TehJhu]

I thought Xykon wanted to blackmail the gods n' everybody by threatening to release the Snarl?

[Remirach]

I thought Xykon wanted to blackmail the gods n' everybody by threatening to release the Snarl? No. Xykon wants to threaten the world by unleashing the Snarl in a controlled fashion -- he thinks it will give him a monster at his beck and call. The Dark One wants to blackmail the Gods by changing the location of the Gates to one of their throne rooms. The rituals that Redcloak knows will deliver the power of the Gates to the Dark One -- they won't do jack for Xykon. Redcloak hoped to buy him off by setting him up in a "cushy retirement in the new goblin nation," but that is a far cry from the world domination Xykon thinks he's signed up for.

[stm177]

Not having read Start of Darkness, would that plan even work? If I were the gods, I'd bring the hammer down. Maybe I'm too used to the standard D&D pantheons, where the gods completely control their own planes.

[Duaneyo1]

Here's my two cents:

Xykon isn't stupid, he is just ate up with adult ADD. So high intelligence and low wisdom The lich has a plan of his own and he will try to royally screw Redcloak right before, during or after the snarl is released. He was an adventurer / Villain / Evil Overlord for 50 some years before he met Redcloak and has learned a few things on his own about the snarl. He has also had access to all the research that other wizard did on the subject.

[geekyhedgehog]

Like many others, I believe that Xykon knows, he just doesn't care.

[Remirach]

Not having read Start of Darkness, would that plan even work? If I were the gods, I'd bring the hammer down. Maybe I'm too used to the standard D&D pantheons, where the gods completely control their own planes.

I couldn't for sure say that it would work, only that the Dark One THINKS it will. We know the Snarl can destroy deities, and that the gods were the ones who banished the humanoids to barren lands to prevent them from becoming a threat to their beloved PC races. The Dark One wants the power to threaten them so he can bargain for a re-apportionment. On the face of it, it seems doable.

[David Argall]

Sod

We've also seen him fool Xykon at the very start of their alliance. You really think Xykon would still be going along with this Gate nonsense if he knew NO ONE can control the Snarl?
This was a lie that Xykon really has little way to check. All of the "facts" came from Redcloak and there is little way to check them. Redcloak does not have these advantages for later lies.


, what past behavior is it that Xykon allowing this would be consistent with?
Concealing his brother's quiting would be one.



Why should he know? Redcloak's aim to get info on Girard's Gate is something completely worth sticking around for, and he knows Redcloak isn't going to try to sabotage his own plan. Why would he have any idea how long it should take an interrogator to get info out of a prisoner immune to fear?
Redcloak can cast Domionate Person 5 or more times a day, and O'Chul is an underdog on the save. He may not even get a 2nd save vs a question like "tell me all you know about the other gates" since he knows nothing, but even if we give him the 2nd save at +2, he is only about a 75% chance to resist each casting. That makes him only about a 25% chance to resist past the first day. His chance of resisting a full week is about 1/16,000.
And this is just partial spell use, without using any tricks to toughen the save or weaken O'Chul's ability to resist.
Xykon has been a spellcaster for about a century. He's going to know this stuff. He might be generous enought to assume Redcloak is lying to himself as well, but he knows for a long time that Redcloak is lying.

[factotum]

Xykon has been a spellcaster for about a century. He's going to know this stuff. He might be generous enought to assume Redcloak is lying to himself as well, but he knows for a long time that Redcloak is lying.

Xykon is a sorcerer--a natural spellcaster. He doesn't study magic in the same way wizards do, so there's no real reason why he should even know what all the wizard spells in the world do, much less what divine spells are about!

[Remirach]

Sod
This was a lie that Xykon really has little way to check. All of the "facts" came from Redcloak and there is little way to check them. Redcloak does not have these advantages for later lies.
That's not the only advantage it had going for it, compared to the lies he's been caught out in. They were lies of omission for the most part, and aroused no suspicion. Xykon leapt to a wild conclusion about "controlling" the Snarl before Redcloak even finished explaining what the whole thing was about, and then Redcloak didn't bother to correct him because Xykon's error made the deal seem more appealing than it otherwise would have been.

Xykon can't check on this first lie, but he never questions it. He probably won't check up on Redcloak's lies about O-Chul, because he has no real reason to be suspicious. The ultimate outcome is the same.


Concealing his brother's quiting would be one.
Closer to what I had in mind, except Xykon doesn't later confirm he never bought this story, either. The fact that he may sometimes know but not care doesn't mean there weren't times when he neither knew NOR cared.


Redcloak can cast Domionate Person 5 or more times a day, and O'Chul is an underdog on the save.
He can? Are you sure? Dominate Person in the online SRD is an Arcane spell.


He may not even get a 2nd save vs a question like "tell me all you know about the other gates" since he knows nothing, but even if we give him the 2nd save at +2, he is only about a 75% chance to resist each casting. That makes him only about a 25% chance to resist past the first day. His chance of resisting a full week is about 1/16,000.
See above.


And this is just partial spell use, without using any tricks to toughen the save or weaken O'Chul's ability to resist.
Xykon has been a spellcaster for about a century. He's going to know this stuff.
Like in 459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html)?

RC: Wait, have you been using fire and lightning to fight them?
X: Yeah, why?
RC: Sir, that stuff only has a 50% chance of affecting incorporeal creatures at all!
X: Well how the hell am I supposed to remember that? Like I sat and read the rules on Special Abilities.

He doesn't know about a lot of things related to magic that he's not directly interested in. "Prisoner interrogation" may well be one thing that he's never cared about.



He might be generous enought to assume Redcloak is lying to himself as well, but he knows for a long time that Redcloak is lying.
If Redcloak were lying to himself, Xykon wouldn't be doing either of them any favors by letting him carry on with things unless he'd changed his mind and actually WANTED to stay in Azure City, and was manipulating REDCLOAK into staying put.

[Kami2awa]

From SoD:

:xykon: "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

So it is very possible that he knows what Redcloak is doing. But he doesn't care, because, hey, he has undead gladitorial entertainment! After all, Xykon isn't in much of a hurry, is he? He has the attention span of a four-year-old, so it's not like it's hard to distract him from the Gates.

Also, if you are immortal, you can't really waste time! If hanging around gets Xykon a better power base in Azure City, he will.

[David Argall]

SoD

Xykon can't check on this first lie, but he never questions it. He probably won't check up on Redcloak's lies about O-Chul, because he has no real reason to be suspicious. The ultimate outcome is the same.
We are down to "probably" already, and Xykon does the improbable rather often.
But Xykon does have grounds for suspicion. He knows Redcloak wants to stay in the city, and he knows the interrogation should not take anywhere near this long.


Closer to what I had in mind, except Xykon doesn't later confirm he never bought this story, either.
Given the quality of the story, he hardly has to. We either treat it as a gag, or assume that Xykon just didn't care. And when they meet up again, Xykon "refuses" to believe Red-Cloak had quit.

Note the magic ring Xykon displayed. He got that well before the confrontation. Xykon knew of Right-eye's plot long before Redcloak did. Possibly before Right-eye did.


He can? Are you sure? Dominate Person in the online SRD is an Arcane spell.
My error on the exact tactic. However, we have Tsukiko who can cast it, and Redcloak has brought in other experts. So the same principle still applies. Redcloak would have gotten all O'Chul had within a week. When it takes months, Xykon knows Redcloak is stalling.


He doesn't know about a lot of things related to magic that he's not directly interested in. "Prisoner interrogation" may well be one thing that he's never cared about.
You get to torture people, and Xykon doesn't think that sounds like a great hobby? Mind you, he does prefer killing them, but he is into pain and suffering too, and the odds are pretty good he has indulged in some.


If Redcloak were lying to himself, Xykon wouldn't be doing either of them any favors by letting him carry on with things unless he'd changed his mind and actually WANTED to stay in Azure City, and was manipulating REDCLOAK into staying put.
Xykon can get stuck in a routine pretty easily. He has spent years doing pretty much nothing. Not surprising that he would be willing to just stay around here and torture/kill the random slave or hobgoblin.

[Remirach]

SoD
We are down to "probably" already, and Xykon does the improbable rather often.
But Xykon does have grounds for suspicion. He knows Redcloak wants to stay in the city, and he knows the interrogation should not take anywhere near this long.
How does he know Redcloak wants to stay in the city? Even if he's figured out by now that Redcloak's feelings towards the hobgoblins are not what they were, why would Redcloak WANT to stay in the city? His assistant swears they're already fortified. You expect Xykon to anticipate the political ramifications?


Given the quality of the story, he hardly has to. We either treat it as a gag, or assume that Xykon just didn't care. And when they meet up again, Xykon "refuses" to believe Red-Cloak had quit.

I presume you meant Right-Eye, and yes, he refuses. That works more with the idea that he doesn't always know what's going on, because he's intent on keeping his minions nearby and not allowing them to run off whenever they please.


Note the magic ring Xykon displayed. He got that well before the confrontation. Xykon knew of Right-eye's plot long before Redcloak did. Possibly before Right-eye did.

You're making him out to be a diabolical mastermind. How Xykon found out about the plan we can't say, but you're attributing it to his genius when it could have easily been Right-Eye's carelessness that tipped Xykon off.


My error on the exact tactic. However, we have Tsukiko who can cast it, and Redcloak has brought in other experts.

Other experts who also appear to be some sort of goblin. Redcloak also says the goblin people aren't genetically predisposed to being arcane casters. If he limits himself to goblins of any stripe, he may have a hard time getting his hands on that exact spell. And while Tsuikiko verifiably knows it, it's as unclear whether she'd help him if he asked as it is whether he WOULD ask for her help under any circumstances. Are her resources considered "at his disposal"? Or does she work for Xykon and Xykon alone?

But that's not really the point. The excuse Redcloak is using is that O-Chul "resists" magic somehow. All he needs is some kind of supplementary material -- like the book the "Dashing Swordsman" prestige class came in, or even the template used by the ghost martyr guard of paladins ("homebrewed or cribbed off another campaign..."). The Sapphire Guard already HAS demonstrated a willingness to pull from other sources, as Xykon discovered to his detriment. The idea that they might do it again is reasonable.


You get to torture people, and Xykon doesn't think that sounds like a great hobby? Mind you, he does prefer killing them, but he is into pain and suffering too, and the odds are pretty good he has indulged in some.

Yeah, but torturing for fun and torturing for info aren't quite the same deal. In the first case, it doesn't matter if your prisoner dies under "interrogation." In the second, you need to avoid that at all costs. Keeping someone in pain WITHOUT killing them even though they continue to defy you seems like it'd require slightly more mental discipline, which Xykon knows he lacks and doesn't much care about, since he prefers his "sledgehammer to the face" approach to things anyway.


Xykon can get stuck in a routine pretty easily. He has spent years doing pretty much nothing.

Not since becoming a lich. There have been periods of downtime, and he's willing to go at things in a slow and measured way, but he's always been about the plan.


Not surprising that he would be willing to just stay around here and torture/kill the random slave or hobgoblin.

Willing, yes. But he thinks Redcloak's doing real work while he waits and twiddles his thumbs and commits random atrocities. If he knew that were not the case, or thought Redcloak should just give it up as a bad job, the situation wouldn't be the same.

[SteveMB]

Here's my two cents:

Xykon isn't stupid, he is just ate up with adult ADD. So high intelligence and low wisdom The lich has a plan of his own and he will try to royally screw Redcloak right before, during or after the snarl is released. He was an adventurer / Villain / Evil Overlord for 50 some years before he met Redcloak and has learned a few things on his own about the snarl. He has also had access to all the research that other wizard did on the subject.

There's no particular reason he'd have learned anything about the Snarl before meeting Redcloak (especially since the Order of the Scribble did their best to suppress the knowledge, and Xykon isn't exactly the type to seek out knowledge for its own sake or to retain anything he stumbled across that lacked immediate relevance).

As for later -- yes, he had Serini's diary, and whatever he might have gleaned from Dorukan's work (he seemed to think that if he could just get past Dorukan's warding spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html), he'd be pretty much good to go).

However, it's not clear that any of that would tell him that Redcloak was lying (if only by omission) about his ability to exploit the Snarl once he got a gate under control.

[David Argall]

Sod

How does he know Redcloak wants to stay in the city?
See 466. It would seem there were also several unrecorded conversations as well.



Even if he's figured out by now that Redcloak's feelings towards the hobgoblins are not what they were, why would Redcloak WANT to stay in the city? His assistant swears they're already fortified.
And Redcloak says that is not enough to allow them to stay. They need additional things to have a permanent base. And Redcloak has shown himself willing to settle for half a loaf to some extent. At the moment, he feels he can secure the city for goblinkind and not risk the greater plan. That way, he has some success guaranteed even if he dies at the next gate.



That works more with the idea that he doesn't always know what's going on, because he's intent on keeping his minions nearby and not allowing them to run off whenever they please.
But Xykon is not interested in keeping his minions nearby. Note that he wanders away from Redcloak, just forgetting about his most useful minion. In effect, Xykon's attitude is that his minions can go where they like, except that they are to be back in time to "serve him tea" [or in Xykon's case, serve as victims in some vicious and fatal game].



You're making him out to be a diabolical mastermind.
Well, more the story is at this point. He is being shown as being able to be a diabolical mastermind when he puts his mind to it, and at odd times, he does.



How Xykon found out about the plan we can't say, but you're attributing it to his genius when it could have easily been Right-Eye's carelessness that tipped Xykon off.
Same difference for our purposes. Redcloak had no idea what Right-Eye was up to despite knowing far better than Xykon did that Right-Eye was not a happy camper, while Xykon knew Right-Eye's plan in detail, and took steps to counter it. We can say it was dumb luck and he just happened to be looking at Right-Eye when he was getting that lich-killing weapon, but Redcloak has before him proof that even a very careful attempt to fool Xykon may fail. And we have proof that Xykon can make some deep and secret plans.



Other experts who also appear to be some sort of goblin. Redcloak also says the goblin people aren't genetically predisposed to being arcane casters. If he limits himself to goblins of any stripe, he may have a hard time getting his hands on that exact spell.
Which is important only if that is the only spell that would work. One way or another, there are dozens of them. Dominate Person is merely one of the more obvious. A couple of Bestow Curses, Dooms, etc and O-Chul's saves are thru the floor, while Owl's wisdom, etc puts the save thru the roof. Now we add in a zone of truth [or better Discern lies], and use Enthral to get him to talk. Rinse and repeat. A lowly wiz able to cast Detect Thoughts will make it simple.



The excuse Redcloak is using is that O-Chul "resists" magic somehow. The Sapphire Guard already HAS demonstrated a willingness to pull from other sources, as Xykon discovered to his detriment. The idea that they might do it again is reasonable.
Reasonable to a limited extent. O'Chul doesn't resist magic in general. Nor did the other paladins. Instead he is supposed to resist one particular type of magic about one particular subject, on which he may well know nothing in the first place.
Not only is he to be resistant, but he is to be resistant under an extreme variety of conditions, some of them highly unfavorable to him, and when attacked by experts in the field.
In other words, this was reasonable the first week of interrogation. Long before we reach three months, it no longer is. Even if we were to believe this fairy tale of specialized resistance, we would simply decide further attempts are useless whether or not the information is there.



Yeah, but torturing for fun and torturing for info aren't quite the same deal.
True, but even if Xykon is a lousy interrogator, that still means he has picked up a few of the points.



Not since becoming a lich. There have been periods of downtime, and he's willing to go at things in a slow and measured way, but he's always been about the plan.
We don't see him doing that much other than about the plan, but we don't see him doing that much at all. We know of long periods when he was content to be making zero progress on the plan. We know on the way to the crucial battle, he preferred to play games instead of plan the battle. So he is not entirely devoted to the plan.



Willing, yes. But he thinks Redcloak's doing real work while he waits and twiddles his thumbs and commits random atrocities. If he knew that were not the case, or thought Redcloak should just give it up as a bad job, the situation wouldn't be the same.
"What's the rush? Neither of us is getting any older." It's been a Xykon style to kick back any time he finds a problem that will hold him still for a bit. So he is willing to wait until he sees a solution [maybe to a problem we have not been told about such as how to take 20,000 minions with him], and Redcloak can play with the city until Xykon gets an idea.

[Remirach]

SOD


See 466.
In 466 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html), Redcloak convinces Xykon to stay put for the time being. He wanted to look for info in the city, which necessitated staying put, which they could do because their victory over Azure City was complete in all ways save for the securing of the Gate itself. Staying put was, at the time, the plan of action in order to further the greater Plan. It was also quite a sincere goal at the time -- in 484 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) Redcloak berates himself for "killing" Hinjo instead of capturing him, because he wasn't sure where else he could find someone who'd know about the other Gates.

If there is no info to be found, why would Xykon know that Redcloak STILL wanted to stay DESPITE the fact that he now knows they can accomplish nothing they had originally hoped to do?


It would seem there were also several unrecorded conversations as well.
I'll grant you that it was unlikely they went for four months without speaking about anything relevant, but why would those conversations be any more revealing then the brief conversation they have in 543? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) Redcloak's been looking for info, and it hasn't been going well, and he appears irritable and overworked. There's nothing revealing there to suggest that Redcloak has some ulterior motive for staying put.


And Redcloak says that is not enough to allow them to stay. They need additional things to have a permanent base.
Why would Xykon suspect that Redcloak feels they need more than what they have? I don't know that he would appreciate the details of the situation any more than Jirix does. Jirix thinks they're all set for Xykon and Redcloak to move on. He's quite pleased with the situation. Redcloak contradicts this optimism because he doesn't feel the new state is reliable without trading partners. Does XYKON understand that there's a difference? If Xykon doesn't, why would he suspect that Redcloak felt there was anything more he could do for the hobgoblins by staying put?


And Redcloak has shown himself willing to settle for half a loaf to some extent. At the moment, he feels he can secure the city for goblinkind and not risk the greater plan. That way, he has some success guaranteed even if he dies at the next gate.
Oh yeah, I agree. I just don't know that it's as apparent to Xykon as it would be to the readers. He'd have to know both that Redcloak is now as dedicated to the hobgoblins as he once was to regular goblins (and I doubt Redcloak went to any particular trouble to tell his boss this -- that'd just be asking for trouble. Xykon might have noticed a change in his attitude, depending on how much he lets it show, but that's not wholly clear. Look at how Redcloak snaps at Jirix in front of Xykon, to the point that Xykon actually defends him), and that he felt the fortifications they already had in place weren't adequate. We know that Redcloak feels this way, but we've seen the relevant scenes.


But Xykon is not interested in keeping his minions nearby. Note that he wanders away from Redcloak, just forgetting about his most useful minion.

Nearby or otherwise in line. Xykon had quite a hold on Redcloak even before he got Redcloak to murder his brother. Note that even after Xykon left, Redcloak stayed put for 3 years in the same lair before striking out to find Right-Eye, and that Xykon IMMEDIATELY went out after him when he did. Although I suppose the latter part could just be a timing coincidence.


In effect, Xykon's attitude is that his minions can go where they like, except that they are to be back in time to "serve him tea" [or in Xykon's case, serve as victims in some vicious and fatal game].
I think he wanted Right-Eye right then and there. Right-Eye's intuition was telling him he didn't have long to live under Xykon's thumb.


Well, more the story is at this point. He is being shown as being able to be a diabolical mastermind when he puts his mind to it, and at odd times, he does.
Diabolical, sure. Mastermind? Ehhh. He's managed some clever and extremely creative things, but "Mastermind" makes me think of a person who is in control and understands all the pieces in play. Xykon's mostly in control, but he can't even REMEMBER all of the pieces in play.


Same difference for our purposes. Redcloak had no idea what Right-Eye was up to despite knowing far better than Xykon did that Right-Eye was not a happy camper, while Xykon knew Right-Eye's plan in detail, and took steps to counter it.
Well no, it's NOT really the same. If Right-Eye were too loud about his plans, or too overtly hostile and perhaps smug in his dealings with Xykon, the fact that Xykon would figure out that something was up doesn't really elevate his level of perception above "average." It also wasn't an extremely convoluted plan -- stab him when he's fighting someone else already. Xykon only had to take ONE step to prevent it, which was purchase the magic ring.


We can say it was dumb luck and he just happened to be looking at Right-Eye when he was getting that lich-killing weapon, but Redcloak has before him proof that even a very careful attempt to fool Xykon may fail.
If it WAS a careful attempt. Right-Eye isn't the most subtle personality himself. ("I suffer from Restless Axe Syndrome.")


And we have proof that Xykon can make some deep and secret plans.

Xykon can make secret plans, sure -- his geas on tMitD is one. Is that a "deep" plan though? I can think of a few things that could go wrong with it, myself. The Right-Eye situation was really more a course of inaction than a plan, he bought the ring as a precaution and then waited to see what would happen. He understood it would bind Redcloak's fate to his even more if the goblin actually would go so far as to kill his brother, but it was "mostly curiosity." Xykon also thinks that "nothing's funnier than false hope, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html) so letting Right-Eye try his betrayal without knowing it was futile is the course of action he probably wanted to take in the first place ANYWAY.


Which is important only if that is the only spell that would work. One way or another, there are dozens of them. Dominate Person is merely one of the more obvious. A couple of Bestow Curses, Dooms, etc and O-Chul's saves are thru the floor, while Owl's wisdom, etc puts the save thru the roof. Now we add in a zone of truth [or better Discern lies], and use Enthral to get him to talk. Rinse and repeat. A lowly wiz able to cast Detect Thoughts will make it simple.
Enthrall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enthrall.htm) doesn't seem like it could make a person talk -- it makes THEM listen to YOU and "take no action" while you speak. And detect thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm) lets you read "surface thoughts" which doesn't seem deep enough to be useful for this purpose.


Reasonable to a limited extent. O'Chul doesn't resist magic in general. Nor did the other paladins. Instead he is supposed to resist one particular type of magic about one particular subject, on which he may well know nothing in the first place.
Not only is he to be resistant, but he is to be resistant under an extreme variety of conditions, some of them highly unfavorable to him, and when attacked by experts in the field.

It would be a brokenly powerful supplement if it let him resist ALL magic, right? This is (ostensibly) something obscure, and specific, which the experts can't help with if it's not something they're directly familiar with.


In other words, this was reasonable the first week of interrogation. Long before we reach three months, it no longer is. Even if we were to believe this fairy tale of specialized resistance, we would simply decide further attempts are useless whether or not the information is there.

I'm not sure about that time frame. It took Redcloak no small amount of time to even figure out if their world used Psionics at all, so it must have taken even longer to find an expert to consult. Moreover, Redcloak wasn't all the way convinced there was nothing to be found until the last few strips -- so that was a full four months in which he was genuinely working on extracting info from O-Chul. ISTM that if he still had hope of getting information from O-Chul in all that time, the attempts were still "reasonable." Reaching a bit there at the end, perhaps, but he's just being thorough. "We" (and he) would not necessarily decide that further attempts are useless if there is still a good chance that the paladin has information that might save our lives during the next attempt.


True, but even if Xykon is a lousy interrogator, that still means he has picked up a few of the points.
I'm sure he knows enough to get information out of certain types of people. How useful the information would be and whether he could get ALL of the information the person had is more doubtful.


We don't see him doing that much other than about the plan, but we don't see him doing that much at all. We know of long periods when he was content to be making zero progress on the plan.
After becoming a lich, he put together a large army, seen on "Lair Island." Redcloak says of this period that they were looking for leads on other Gates but they didn't pan out. (Heh.) He spent several years deciphering Serini's diary. Then he enslaved Right-Eye's village and camped out on Dorukan's doorstep, knowing there was a Gate there. After finally luring Dorukan out, they set up shop inside the dungeon, trying to figure out a way to get past Dorukan's wards. They found it, although they weren't able to put it into practice before Xykon was blown up and the rest of the castle soon followed. Xykon then recruited an army, picked up Serini's diary and set out to conquer the next Gate. They were able to take the city but not the Gate, and after having almost died at Soon's hands, he listened to Redcloak and stayed put, hoping to find more relevant information about the next Gate.

There are stretches where he's been stuck in place waiting, but it's not that he's "content with making zero progress on the plan." They've been stumped on occasion, and Xykon isn't so reckless that he'll charge blindly into a situation when it's possible that other, more patient methods, will work. That was the attitude he took with Dorukan. It's very, very similar to the attitude he's taking now with Girard, if he believes it's possible to give themselves a tactical advantage by letting Redcloak wring the paladin dry.


We know on the way to the crucial battle, he preferred to play games instead of plan the battle. So he is not entirely devoted to the plan.

He DID have a plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) for the battle. "We march up to the city walls and start blasting away!" It didn't take much time to devise so he had plenty of time for Yahtzee. Redcloak wasn't happy with this "plan" and Xykon let him do his thing. He's committed to the big-P Plan, he's just intellectually lazy, especially when he has someone around who's willing to do that kind of thinking FOR him.


"What's the rush? Neither of us is getting any older." It's been a Xykon style to kick back any time he finds a problem that will hold him still for a bit.
Right, he doesn't MIND waiting if he HAS to.


So he is willing to wait until he sees a solution [maybe to a problem we have not been told about such as how to take 20,000 minions with him], and Redcloak can play with the city until Xykon gets an idea.
If he were working on some OTHER problem related to the Gates it would make more sense that he was willing to let Redcloak lie to him. Absolutely. But it wouldn't explain how he'd know Redcloak was lying in the first place.

[David Argall]

In 466 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0466.html), Redcloak convinces Xykon to stay put for the time being.
It would appear he does not convince him, at least in the part of the conversation we hear. In our last view, Xykon is distinctly skeptical about sticking around. This is why we can be pretty sure there are additional conversations [or a continuation of this one] that we do not hear.



If there is no info to be found, why would Xykon know that Redcloak STILL wanted to stay DESPITE the fact that he now knows they can accomplish nothing they had originally hoped to do?
Xykon knows Redcloak wants to stay because Redcloak is making no secret of that. Nor is Redcloak making a secret of wanting to build a functioning city for hobgoblins. He may be making a secret, maybe even from himself, of his own desire to rule that city [The idea of sticking around to secure trade is a tad thin. Trade will develop on its own if the government lets it. Still, a number of people deem Redcloak LE, and lawfuls have this idea that government control is absolutely necessary and can have trouble seeing that a trade agreement is pretty much not needed.], but there is no secret of the desire to stay.
And while Redcloak knows he can't get much or any useful information about the next gate, this was not his only, or even primary, purpose. Going back to 466, we find him quite cheerful about the idea of capturing the city. The idea of getting information is proposed only after Xykon has said he wants to leave right away.



Why would Xykon suspect that Redcloak feels they need more than what they have?
Because Redcloak is making no secret of it. Indeed, he likely covers the subject in far more detail than Xykon wants to hear.


Does XYKON understand that there's a difference? If Xykon doesn't, why would he suspect that Redcloak felt there was anything more he could do for the hobgoblins by staying put?
Xykon simply doesn't care. He is willing to pretty much just sit around for a few years or so and wait for a break, or until he gets bored. Since he isn't bored yet, he just accepts Redcloak's lies. And Redcloak lies because he fears Xykon isn't that far from boredom.



He'd have to know both that Redcloak is now as dedicated to the hobgoblins as he once was to regular goblins (and I doubt Redcloak went to any particular trouble to tell his boss this -- that'd just be asking for trouble.
Redcloak "tells" him that with just about every action he takes. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as risking his life vs the enemy head priest to save a few hundred hobgoblins, but the many daily decisons have much the same effect. The evidence is there for Xykon to see.

SoD
Note that even after Xykon left, Redcloak stayed put for 3 years in the same lair before striking out to find Right-Eye,
We do not know this. We merely know he showed up at his brother's one day. Why is not discussed, and we do not know if he had been searching for years or had known all along and just had some vacation time. Nor do we know of any compulsion for him to stay at the lair except habit.


and that Xykon IMMEDIATELY went out after him when he did.
On the available evidence, Xykon went after Redcloak when Xykon found the location of the Gate, with no concern over what Redcloak had been doing in the meantime or where he was. Those he encountered, whether ogres or Right-Eye, were simply offered the choice, join or die.

We can note here that 82 years ago, Xykon quit his own job as a minion. There is a general opinion that "I" can do what "He" can't, but we are still looking at an ethos where the evil minion has a right to leave when the mastermind has no immediate need for him. We just do not see Xykon keeping more than casual track of his minions.




I think he wanted Right-Eye right then and there. Right-Eye's intuition was telling him he didn't have long to live under Xykon's thumb.
Right-Eye's intuition is not shown to be particularly accurate. And Xykon is willing to be fobbed off with a story that was obviously silly. We can take that as a joke of course, but the presumed meaning is that Xykon did not care.


Well no, it's NOT really the same. If Right-Eye were too loud about his plans, or too overtly hostile and perhaps smug in his dealings with Xykon, the fact that Xykon would figure out that something was up doesn't really elevate his level of perception above "average." It also wasn't an extremely convoluted plan -- stab him when he's fighting someone else already. Xykon only had to take ONE step to prevent it, which was purchase the magic ring.
He of course also had to learn what the plan was, as well as learning there is a plan at all. And Redcloak, who presumably had much more contact with Right-Eye than Xykon did, didn't even suspect a thing. So we get the same result. Xykon could plot better than Right-Eye, who could plot better than Redcloak. It doesn't matter how incompetent or competent we make them. We still end up with Redcloak having a very limited ability to fool Xykon.


Enthrall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enthrall.htm) doesn't seem like it could make a person talk -- it makes THEM listen to YOU and "take no action" while you speak.
And for 1d3 rounds thereafter, they discuss the performance or the subject, in this case gates. So repeat the spell a few dozen times and O-Chul will make slips, if there were any to make.


And detect thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm) lets you read "surface thoughts" which doesn't seem deep enough to be useful for this purpose.
If we assume O-Chul had any conscious knowledge of the gate defenses, the spell would be sufficient to find that. As the spell is cast, Redcloak talks about Gates, which would bring the subject to O-Chul's mind and part of his surface thoughts. O-Chul could possibly block a precise reading, but short of some special ability or something, he could not hide that he was trying to hide something. Again, we can repeat several times a day, and O-Chul is just going to be picked clean.


This is (ostensibly) something obscure, and specific, which the experts can't help with if it's not something they're directly familiar with.
It is something extremely obscure and specific. It hid only one precise type of information, but at the same time, left it availible for conscious consideration [otherwise, torture/etc is futile] and hid it against all forms of detection.


It took Redcloak no small amount of time to even figure out if their world used Psionics at all, so it must have taken even longer to find an expert to consult.
The very act of consulting a psionic is evidence that Redcloak was trying to fight the logic of the situation. In essence, he was saying "Every bit of evidence says he knows nothing. But I refuse to accept that and need to seek out rare and obscure methods that are almost guaranteed not to have been used by the paladins and which have dubious ability as well."



Moreover, Redcloak wasn't all the way convinced there was nothing to be found until the last few strips -- so that was a full four months in which he was genuinely working on extracting info from O-Chul. ISTM that if he still had hope of getting information from O-Chul in all that time, the attempts were still "reasonable."
This is not a reasonable definition of reasonable. It says the blindly insane are being reasonable. Redcloak here is starting with the conclusion that O-Chul knows something, and fights all the way against the evidence that he doesn't. We simply do not deem that reasonable.



Reaching a bit there at the end, perhaps, but he's just being thorough. "We" (and he) would not necessarily decide that further attempts are useless if there is still a good chance that the paladin has information that might [b]save our lives during the next attempt.
But we see no such sign that there is a chance at all, much less a good one.


I'm sure he knows enough to get information out of certain types of people. How useful the information would be and whether he could get ALL of the information the person had is more doubtful.
Again, Xykon doesn't need the level of skill desired here. He needs just enough to measure Redcloak's lack of progress.


After becoming a lich, he put together a large army, seen on "Lair Island."
We know of no such large army. He left the forest gate with 2 goblins and a zombie. He picked up a limited number of kobolds by the time Right-Eye left. He probably had a few others, but the island and castle are not large.


There are stretches where he's been stuck in place waiting, but it's not that he's "content with making zero progress on the plan." They've been stumped on occasion, and Xykon isn't so reckless that he'll charge blindly into a situation when it's possible that other, more patient methods, will work. That was the attitude he took with Dorukan. It's very, very similar to the attitude he's taking now with Girard, if he believes it's possible to give themselves a tactical advantage by letting Redcloak wring the paladin dry.
You are excepting excuses as reasons. If there is any sort of roadblock in the way, Xykon may stop and get into a rut. Until he is jarred out of it, he sticks to it. He may jar himself out if he gets an idea, but having made the decision to stay in Azure City, Xykon is going to stick with his decision until something happens to cause him to move.


He DID have a plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) for the battle. "We march up to the city walls and start blasting away!"
Which is easily seen as a lazy plan, the sort of plan we expect of the less than committed. He has risked the plan for some casual entertainment.



Right, he doesn't MIND waiting if he HAS to.
Or if he doesn't have to.



If he were working on some OTHER problem related to the Gates it would make more sense that he was willing to let Redcloak lie to him. Absolutely. But it wouldn't explain how he'd know Redcloak was lying in the first place.
But that is simply obvious. Redcloak continues to report failure at a task that should have been a success in a week, if it could succeed at all. You could be nice and say Redcloak was lying to himself as well until recently, but we still have an obvious situation. Xykon knows, and has known for a long time, that he is not going to get any help from O-Chul. He is sticking around out of habit.

[Qov]

Why would they kill Tsukiko?
Because they thought it was funny. Redcloak tried to kill her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) just for kicks when he first met her, and Xykon thought it was hilarious (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) when he found out. If O-Chul escapes, she just might be the next funniest person to watch in combat with undead gladiators.

[Remirach]

I'm sticking to spoilering the whole conversation if it's the same to you. It's hardly possible to talk about Xykon and Redcloak without invoking Start of Darkness spoilers anyway...


It would appear he does not convince him, at least in the part of the conversation we hear. In our last view, Xykon is distinctly skeptical about sticking around. This is why we can be pretty sure there are additional conversations [or a continuation of this one] that we do not hear.
It appeared to me that Xykon's last comment was a very droll way of conveying his resignation to the idea.


Xykon knows Redcloak wants to stay because Redcloak is making no secret of that.

Redcloak says he wants to stay because the paladin might have info. How would he know Redcloak has ulterior motives for staying?


Nor is Redcloak making a secret of wanting to build a functioning city for hobgoblins.

That is not at all apparent. He doesn't keep it a secret from his assistant, but from Xykon? We've only seen ONE strip featuring them interact since the time skip, and he doesn't say anything about WANTING to keep the city functional. If anything he seems angry that he's the one expected to do most of the work.


He may be making a secret, maybe even from himself, of his own desire to rule that city [The idea of sticking around to secure trade is a tad thin. Trade will develop on its own if the government lets it. Still, a number of people deem Redcloak LE, and lawfuls have this idea that government control is absolutely necessary and can have trouble seeing that a trade agreement is pretty much not needed.],

Trade will develop on its own if the plot allows for it, or not if otherwise. Redcloak framed the matter in terms of the hobgoblins being able to feed themselves, and he's willing to lie to Xykon about it, which adds up to a pretty equivalent risk/reward ratio.


but there is no secret of the desire to stay.

Again, I'm speaking of the ulterior motive.


And while Redcloak knows he can't get much or any useful information about the next gate, this was not his only, or even primary, purpose. Going back to 466, we find him quite cheerful about the idea of capturing the city. The idea of getting information is proposed only after Xykon has said he wants to leave right away.

He expresses cheerfulness that the Sapphire Guard is finished and no other goblins will endure what he did. No further occupation is necessary to seal THAT deal in his head. ("If we did nothing else...")

It is not at all suggested by that strip that information was not his primary purpose or that he was even thinking of the hobgoblins at that moment.


Because Redcloak is making no secret of it. Indeed, he likely covers the subject in far more detail than Xykon wants to hear.

He openly admits to Jirix that he's NOT telling Xykon everything. He says specifically that Xykon "operates most effectively on a "need to know" basis. And all he needs to know is that we're not yet finished here."


Xykon simply doesn't care. He is willing to pretty much just sit around for a few years or so and wait for a break, or until he gets bored. Since he isn't bored yet, he just accepts Redcloak's lies. And Redcloak lies because he fears Xykon isn't that far from boredom.

He says specifically that he's bored already. What's he waiting for? A sign from on high?


Redcloak "tells" him that with just about every action he takes. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as risking his life vs the enemy head priest to save a few hundred hobgoblins, but the many daily decisons have much the same effect. The evidence is there for Xykon to see.

We don't know that, in no small part because we haven't seen much of them together since that incident. The last time we saw Redcloak and Xykon discussing the hobgoblins specifically, it was 376 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html). None of the comics in which they've been seen together since have shown Redcloak acting in any particularly revealing manner. Could Xykon have detected a change of heart by now? Very possibly. But thus far it hasn't even been hinted at.


SoD
We do not know this. We merely know he showed up at his brother's one day. Why is not discussed, and we do not know if he had been searching for years or had known all along and just had some vacation time. Nor do we know of any compulsion for him to stay at the lair except habit.

That becomes a little weak when he had ample reason to take off. On the night that Right-Eye leaves, the reasons Redcloak gives for not FLEEING Xykon as any sane person should were that Xykon would chase him, and he wouldn't give the Crimson Mantle (and the Plan) to someone else to let it be their problem. If Xykon disappears, why stick around? He hasn't retreated to the phylactery so he's probably not dead, and if Redcloak ran for it, well, Xykon MIGHT find him elsewhere, but was SURE to find him there. He sticks around out of the habit of being Xykon's slave, sure.


On the available evidence, Xykon went after Redcloak when Xykon found the location of the Gate, with no concern over what Redcloak had been doing in the meantime or where he was. Those he encountered, whether ogres or Right-Eye, were simply offered the choice, join or die.

Like I said, it could be a coincidence. The timing is so exact -- and so cruel -- that it does invite speculation though.


We can note here that 82 years ago, Xykon quit his own job as a minion. There is a general opinion that "I" can do what "He" can't, but we are still looking at an ethos where the evil minion has a right to leave when the mastermind has no immediate need for him. We just do not see Xykon keeping more than casual track of his minions.

He forced Right-Eye to burn down every hut in the village to ensure that not one single "minion" has a chance to escape. This included (noncombatant) women and children, whom he obviously had no immediate use for.


[By the way, minor plothole to consider. Xykon is gone for three years studying a diary, which next appears in a location he has not been to in decades. How did the diary get there? Xykon did not go there and leave it.
Since Xykon might be able to do something like summons an invisible stalker and order it to take the diary to his library and file it there, the question is not too vital. Still, it seems a flaw.]

You're right, it is a huge timing flaw.


Right-Eye's intuition is not shown to be particularly accurate.

Right-Eye's perspective is presented as the correct one at the end of the tale. I don't think his "intuition" earlier on should merely be dismissed.


And Xykon is willing to be fobbed off with a story that was obviously silly. We can take that as a joke of course, but the presumed meaning is that Xykon did not care.

Caring not being equivalent to knowing, as has been already said.


He of course also had to learn what the plan was, as well as learning there is a plan at all. And Redcloak, who presumably had much more contact with Right-Eye than Xykon did, didn't even suspect a thing. So we get the same result. Xykon could plot better than Right-Eye, who could plot better than Redcloak. It doesn't matter how incompetent or competent we make them. We still end up with Redcloak having a very limited ability to fool Xykon.

Not telling somebody about something isn't the same thing as tricking them into believing something that isn't true. Redcloak is LYING to Xykon. Right-Eye simply kept his brother in the dark about the dagger until the last minute. No direct lying involved. Xykon finds out about this plan, and gets himself a ring that will defend him. He tells no one. Again, no direct lying involved. Redcloak has tried to lie and fail in a situation that did involve direct lying and had I suppose what you would call a huge negative circumstance modifier applied to his fib what with his brother being right there and him being a CLERIC. Not to mention that Xykon already knew of the plot. In other, more favorable circumstances, he has been able to lie with impunity, such as letting Xykon believe his own little fantasy of a pet Snarl.

Xykon, for his part, demonstrated an ability to sniff out a plot against him, and defend himself from it. That's not the same thing as seeing through a direct lie. Especially if Right-Eye was careless and too noisy in his disdain.


And for 1d3 rounds thereafter, they discuss the performance or the subject, in this case gates. So repeat the spell a few dozen times and O-Chul will make slips, if there were any to make.

Slips maybe, although using that spell for information extraction purposes seems like a huge stretch that would be irritatingly unreliable. It's obviously NOT intended for such a use. O-Chul is never going to get any more friendly than "indifferent" even when the spell does work, and because he's of a race and religion opposed to Redcloak's, he gets bonuses to his saving throws. What is "discussed" afterward may well simply be the performance itself.


If we assume O-Chul had any conscious knowledge of the gate defenses, the spell would be sufficient to find that. As the spell is cast, Redcloak talks about Gates, which would bring the subject to O-Chul's mind and part of his surface thoughts. O-Chul could possibly block a precise reading, but short of some special ability or something, he could not hide that he was trying to hide something. Again, we can repeat several times a day, and O-Chul is just going to be picked clean.

Think about something else and tune out the people babbling about Gates. A precise reading of every relevant detail from a hostile subject is not going to be forthcoming.


It is something extremely obscure and specific. It hid only one precise type of information, but at the same time, left it availible for conscious consideration [otherwise, torture/etc is futile] and hid it against all forms of detection.

As if Dorukan's epic-level abjuration wasn't equally absurd if phrased in such terms. It wouldn't do him any GOOD if he couldn't consciously summon the information to mind, but it would do a lot of harm if anyone else could get at that info.


The very act of consulting a psionic is evidence that Redcloak was trying to fight the logic of the situation. In essence, he was saying "Every bit of evidence says he knows nothing. But I refuse to accept that and need to seek out rare and obscure methods that are almost guaranteed not to have been used by the paladins and which have dubious ability as well."

If Soon Kim was willing to go a little afield to pick up a special template for his "ghost martyrs," why is psionics a stretch?


This is not a reasonable definition of reasonable. It says the blindly insane are being reasonable. Redcloak here is starting with the conclusion that O-Chul knows something, and fights all the way against the evidence that he doesn't. We simply do not deem that reasonable.

He's hardly being blindly insane. He's not satisfied that the paladin for sure knows nothing until he's exhausted every other possibility. Even if it wasn't as likely that O-Chul's secrets were somehow "shielded," if Redcloak HAD found anything, we'd be praising his thoroughness. As it was, at worst he spent four months wasting his time with O-Chul, but otherwise used that time to build up the hobgoblins.


But we see no such sign that there is a chance at all, much less a good one.

He's a paladin of the order raised by Soon Kim, who defended ALL the rifts and charged his champions to defend the very fabric of the universe that was upheld by the Gates. It does not take much imagination to see a chance that he might know some valuable information about the other Gates' defenses. Soon's Oath was ill-advised and Redcloak hadn't anticipated that the good guys would so willingly give themselves such a huge handicap. If the Order of the Scribble had managed to stay allies after their quest was finished, the paladins probably WOULD have known about the other Gates' defenses.


Again, Xykon doesn't need the level of skill desired here. He needs just enough to measure Redcloak's lack of progress.

Causing pain to people and getting information out of them can go hand in hand, but he's clearly specialized in only the first and cannot (from what we know of him thus far) make a claim as to knowing much of the latter. Without equivalent experience he can't measure Redcloak's progress or lack thereof.


We know of no such large army. He left the forest gate with 2 goblins and a zombie. He picked up a limited number of kobolds by the time Right-Eye left. He probably had a few others, but the island and castle are not large.

Not that this is even RELEVANT to the main topic, but yes we do know of an army. What, you think I just pull this stuff out of nowhere?

pg78:

Eugene: Lair Island?
Right-Eye: It's a small island just off the coast, about a three hour ride west of here. He's been holed up in an abandoned castle there for a few years now, gathering minions and rebuilding his army.
Eugene: Army? What army?
Right-Eye: Ogres, kobolds, lizardfolk... and goblins. Lots of goblins.

Later Right-Eye tries to urge Redcloak to run away because "he has so many minions now, do you really think he'll notice two less [sic]?"


You are excepting excuses as reasons. If there is any sort of roadblock in the way, Xykon may stop and get into a rut. Until he is jarred out of it, he sticks to it. He may jar himself out if he gets an idea, but having made the decision to stay in Azure City, Xykon is going to stick with his decision until something happens to cause him to move.

Faced with a problem he cannot immediately solve, he settles down. But this is not equivalent because there IS no roadblock. All he has to do to move is say, "we're moving." Redcloak can't do anything to stop him and in the end does as he's told.


Which is easily seen as a lazy plan, the sort of plan we expect of the less than committed. He has risked the plan for some casual entertainment.

Even his serious plans are often "lazy." His method of attack is blunt, brutal force in as great a concentration as he can muster. It's a method that often WORKS. It's not a reflection of his lack of commitment.


Or if he doesn't have to.

There's a rather large difference in between opting to not charge into a trap-filled dungeon with an epic-level spellcaster lying in wait and in choosing to stay put instead of just telling your lackey to shut up and pack his bags already. There was an actual strategic advantage to it. There's also a difference in between being stymied in progress and in just sitting still when you already know what needs to be done. This idea of him staying put because "eh, whatever" has no precedent.


But that is simply obvious. Redcloak continues to report failure at a task that should have been a success in a week, if it could succeed at all. You could be nice and say Redcloak was lying to himself as well until recently, but we still have an obvious situation. Xykon knows, and has known for a long time, that he is not going to get any help from O-Chul. He is sticking around out of habit.

It's really not at all "obvious" nor is there any reason why he should "stick around out of habit." Out of WHAT habit? The one that ENJOYS being bored and not getting anything done?