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Jayngfet
2008-04-16, 10:37 PM
the title says it all, whats th big deal, elves have big ears and contradictory statistics, and yet they're in every piece of fantasy ever made in spirit if not name (faeries of light, faeries of light=high elves/drow) and there are five million kinds of them.

Solo
2008-04-16, 10:38 PM
Tolkien. ...

Collin152
2008-04-16, 10:41 PM
I blame early europeans.

SilentNight
2008-04-16, 10:44 PM
Wrong, one early European who wanted his neighbor's farm. This neighbor happened to have those pointy ears that you sometimes see. Guy says his neighbor is a magical creature and gets him lynched. No one seemed to notice when he moved in two weeks later.

Saihyol
2008-04-16, 10:50 PM
I'm a fan of elves, always have been (sorry), but the proliferation is insane.

Tolkien is responsible I suspect for the form of elves we all think of, but he was drawing on older myths.

The seem to represent the balance between the fey (more spirit) and mortals (more flesh). Plus seen as wise, ever living, smart and agile.

Or you can be short with too much hair (Halfings - feet, Dwarves - face).

That said Song of Fire and Ice has none, Gemmell's writing has none, Joe Abercrombe has none, Robbin Hobb has none.

Half-blood
2008-04-16, 11:03 PM
Not Tolkien, but A direct Result FROM Tolkien...Legolas. Everyone loves legolas. EVERYONE.

Suzuro
2008-04-16, 11:10 PM
Not Tolkien, but A direct Result FROM Tolkien...Legolas. Everyone loves legolas. EVERYONE.


I disagree, my good sir! I have a personal vendetta against Legolas! I dislike him to the bones, ya grok?




-Suzuro

monty
2008-04-16, 11:12 PM
Not Tolkien, but A direct Result FROM Tolkien...Legolas. Everyone loves legolas. EVERYONE.

My existence invalidates your claim.

I do not like elves. I like goblins. But I do not like evil goblins. I also like short sentences.

drengnikrafe
2008-04-16, 11:18 PM
Not Tolkien, but A direct Result FROM Tolkien...Legolas. Everyone loves legolas. EVERYONE.

I daresay...
Legolas is my second favorite character (right after Gandalf, but only because I love magic more then I love Elves).

However, let's please not turn this into a debate as to what our favorite character, and how all the rest are terrible, ect. I can feel something like that coming on, and those threads get annoying...

Collin152
2008-04-16, 11:18 PM
Not Tolkien, but A direct Result FROM Tolkien...Legolas. Everyone loves legolas. EVERYONE.

Correction: Everyone loves Orlando Bloom.

He's more attractive as Will Turner, in my opinion.

Suzuro
2008-04-16, 11:22 PM
...I dislike Orlando Bloom more than I like elves.....is it just me or this turning into an "I hate" Thread made for me..?




-Suzuro

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-16, 11:25 PM
While Tolkien can't be blamed for creating elves, he can be for creating them as we know them. The many sub-races (Tolkien had 6), the mystical and majestic aura, the romantic yet dying race, etc. Modern visions of elves are influenced by The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, and (more-so) The Lord of the Rings. He even created the elven language, Quenya, which is almost fully developed, only a few words are missing (though have been extrapolated) and there are still questions and disagreements on the correct pronunciation but some of that could be due to the different dialects.

monty
2008-04-16, 11:38 PM
Correction: Everyone loves Orlando Bloom.

He's more attractive as Will Turner, in my opinion.

Worse. I hate him even more than elves in general, and that's saying something.

Jayngfet
2008-04-16, 11:41 PM
lets not turn this into an I hate thread, I iate those.

LibraryOgre
2008-04-16, 11:41 PM
He even created the elven language, Quenya, which is almost fully developed, only a few words are missing (though have been extrapolated)

*chuckle* Actually, he created several elven languages. I laugh because I'm reading a series of books wherein, after a catastrophic failure of modern society, a small group actually turns Sindarin into a living language and discovers some... gaps. Words that they don't quite have in the lexicon. Words like "sexual intercourse" and important verbs like "to pee".

Collin152
2008-04-16, 11:42 PM
I like elves.
If you don't go too far with them.
Which is all to easy to do.

Avor
2008-04-16, 11:45 PM
I like elves, they are weak, and fall before my mighty Orc sword!

Jayngfet
2008-04-16, 11:47 PM
I like elves.
If you don't go too far with them.
Which is all to easy to do.

tell that to the night elves, wild elves, forest elves, high elves, dark elves, gray elves, half elves and every variation thereof

Collin152
2008-04-16, 11:48 PM
tell that to the night elves, wild elves, forest elves, high elves, dark elves, gray elves, half elves and every variation thereof

Like I said, far too easy to go too far.

SilverSheriff
2008-04-16, 11:49 PM
Words like "sexual intercourse".

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! !

Oh crap! Elves must live a very boring life...

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-16, 11:49 PM
I don't like Legolas much. He let Gollum escape after all. Don't get me started on Glorfindel though. What was Elrond smoking when he decided to send Pippin instead of Glorfindel?

Also, obligatory Talislanta (http://www.talislanta.com/) plug. Twenty years of Talislanta, and still no elves.

Collin152
2008-04-16, 11:52 PM
Oh crap! Elves must live a very boring life...

Maybe they just don't have a word for it.
Like, they never refer to it directly.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-17, 12:01 AM
Maybe they just don't have a word for it.
Like, they never refer to it directly.

Elves don't have words for your vulgar human bodily functions, like "pee" or "sex." Nor for base human desires like "freedom" and "individuality." We use the extra room for more poetic words, like "thoughtcrime."

Jayngfet
2008-04-17, 12:01 AM
Like I said, far too easy to go too far.

cyberpunk elves, steampunk elves, space elves, were elves, elfpires, celestial elf, demon elf, elemental elf, demon pretending to be an elf, undead elf, drug addict elf...

Collin152
2008-04-17, 12:04 AM
cyberpunk elves, steampunk elves, space elves, were elves, elfpires, celestial elf, demon elf, elemental elf, demon pretending to be an elf, undead elf, drug addict elf...

The Race formerly known as Elf...

Jayngfet
2008-04-17, 12:10 AM
The Race formerly known as Elf...

mc elf(can't touch ears)...

I wanna drow and elf all night, and drider every day!

Dervag
2008-04-17, 12:28 AM
*chuckle* Actually, he created several elven languages. I laugh because I'm reading a series of books wherein, after a catastrophic failure of modern society, a small group actually turns Sindarin into a living language and discovers some... gaps. Words that they don't quite have in the lexicon. Words like "sexual intercourse" and important verbs like "to pee".Most of those 'gap words' have perfectly viable circumlocutions in dozens of languages that can be rendered into Sindarin, right?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! !

Oh crap! Elves must live a very boring life...I'm not saying they do, and I'm not saying they don't. But I'm pretty sure Tolkein did.

undercat
2008-04-17, 01:02 AM
*chuckle* Actually, he created several elven languages. I laugh because I'm reading a series of books wherein, after a catastrophic failure of modern society, a small group actually turns Sindarin into a living language and discovers some... gaps. Words that they don't quite have in the lexicon. Words like "sexual intercourse" and important verbs like "to pee".

Neither Quenya nor Sindarin are fully fleshed out languages grammatically or lexically (and Quenya is the more complete one anyway), but Quenya at least does have a word for sexual intercourse (puhta, iirc, a verb) as well as words for the various sexual organs and one for sexual pleasure.

</pedant>

SoD
2008-04-17, 01:09 AM
Not Tolkien, but A direct Result FROM Tolkien...Legolas. Everyone loves legolas. EVERYONE.

I don't.


Correction: Everyone loves Orlando Bloom.


I don't.

Why are so many people wrong? Or maybe *le gasp* they don't count me as part of everyone!

The_Werebear
2008-04-17, 01:22 AM
My 2 cp.

Some players will naturally gravitate towards the race that they feel has the most "mysterious aura" or "tragic past" or "male bards with the most eyeshadow""solemn dignity and grace." Elves cater to this the most out of the easily recognizable races.

In other situations, it is simple covering of all bases. Different people view elves different ways (Savages in the wilderness, mages in towers, fae like magic beings, haughty supremacists, underground dwelling sociopaths just to name a few), and the best way to make elves match all the fantasy stereotypes is to make an elf for every one.

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-17, 01:25 AM
Well, of course the modern elves are largely influenced by Tolkien's works. However, it is not due to Orlando Bloom or the character of Legolas because the popularity of the two is quite recent compared to the image of elves. I think it's more like the angelic image of elves that were portrayed in Tolkien's world.

p.s. Some of you may point out that the elves of Mirkwood in the Hobbits aren't the most graceful of elves, but that's where Legolas comes in, I guess.

RTGoodman
2008-04-17, 01:30 AM
Some players will naturally gravitate towards the race that they feel has the most "mysterious aura" or "tragic past" or "male bards with the most eyeshadow""solemn dignity and grace." Elves cater to this the most out of the easily recognizable races.

Yeah, I think this is part of it. As a Dwarf, you're sort of shoehorned into being a drunken Scotsman with a beard and an axe. Halflings are either short little kleptomaniacs Kender or Hobbits. Gnomes are silly. Some people play Elves because they say, "Hey, I can be basically me, but pretty!"

Elves are basically humans, but more "perfect" or "in tune" or something. But, despite all the fluff that goes with them, that doesn't really limit you to anything like you would be with any other race (besides Humans, but that's a different story - you're a Human in real life, so why bother being one in your imagination?).

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 01:40 AM
*chuckle* Actually, he created several elven languages. I laugh because I'm reading a series of books wherein, after a catastrophic failure of modern society, a small group actually turns Sindarin into a living language and discovers some... gaps. Words that they don't quite have in the lexicon. Words like "sexual intercourse" and important verbs like "to pee".

Well, I mention Quenya since it is the most complete of his languages, why did they adopt Sindarin? Of course, through the beauty that is fan-aticism many gaps have been filled (http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/ppq.htm).

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-17, 01:48 AM
Halflings are either short little kleptomaniacs Kender or Hobbits.

I've actually never seen halflings played either way. I've seen kender played in Dragonlance games, and I've seen halflings played like hobbits only when pretty explicitely placed in that role by the DM (in which we didn't call them halflings, we called them hobbits).

The iconic halfling from my gaming group is Aram. Rather than trying to describe the character, here are a few quotes:


"There will be much blood to spill to repay these barbarians with the lives that they owe."

"My hands quiver with anticipation of the blood that they will spill and my blade sings for that self-same sanguine offering."

"Let me put it this way: I am only giving you these things because I would rather not see or hear you"

Jayngfet
2008-04-17, 01:55 AM
I've actually never seen halflings played either way. I've seen kender played in Dragonlance games, and I've seen halflings played like hobbits only when pretty explicitely placed in that role by the DM (in which we didn't call them halflings, we called them hobbits).

The iconic halfling from my gaming group is Aram. Rather than trying to describe the character, here are a few quotes:

I agree, some people can't even Imagine orc bards.

Rutee
2008-04-17, 01:59 AM
They're hotter. Especially the men.

See: Proof (http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/RuteeKatreya/80a9a62d.jpg)

:smallbiggrin:

asphen fox
2008-04-17, 02:13 AM
Tolkien. ...

Actually... It goes way back to the anglo-saxons and the old dead groups of people. It was Religion that changed everything. Tolkien's sort of a hero for these type of elves for reviving them, IMO.

Jade_Tarem
2008-04-17, 02:14 AM
It all has to do with the creation of the DnD world.

In the beginning, the gods made the earth, and the animals, and the men, but the creation of the elves was tasked to Ben and Jerry...

asphen fox
2008-04-17, 02:22 AM
It all has to do with the creation of the DnD world.

In the beginning, the gods made the earth, and the animals, and the men, but the creation of the elves was tasked to Ben and Jerry...

I'd rather that you check your history first before you answer. :smalltongue:

Jade_Tarem
2008-04-17, 02:28 AM
Fine, what's your explanation for 31 flavors of elves? :smallamused:

asphen fox
2008-04-17, 02:35 AM
the title says it all, whats th big deal, elves have big ears and contradictory statistics, and yet they're in every piece of fantasy ever made in spirit if not name (faeries of light, faeries of light=high elves/drow) and there are five million kinds of them.

If I'm not mistaken, he's merely asking why everybody a lot of people adore this race.

If you want me to seriously answer your question though... Have you, or have you not realized how broken some most of the wizard spells are? I take the creators of those thought about it for some time, huh? :smalltongue:

Jade_Tarem
2008-04-17, 02:42 AM
I didn't really need a serious answer (nor did you give one, although you do raise an interesting topic that probably could hold its own thread). :smallsmile:

Or perhaps I'm being dense. Where I am it's almost 3 a.m. I'm calling it a night.

Creeps
2008-04-17, 02:47 AM
I think people are drawn to elves because they represent a human ideal: Immortal, beautiful, powerful and filled with romantic mystery. Like an eternal Lord Byron.

It's the heart of heroic fantasy, really. People love them because they want to be them.





Much like I wanna be a short, belligerent Scot with an improbably designed axe.

Thufir
2008-04-17, 02:53 AM
http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/elves.jpg

Need I say more?

Targan
2008-04-17, 03:23 AM
I have played a Sindarin Elf in a Harnmaster campaign for the past 13 years real time. The Harnmaster universe is basically set in the same universe as Middle Earth. The planet Kethira where my character comes from is one of the stops along to way to the Blessed Realm. The attraction of playing my character for me isn't necessarily his beauty or his physical prowess, it is getting into the headspace of a person who is both similar to a human yet also very different. Tolkienian elves have a very different psychology to humans in part because of the nature of their immortal souls. An Eru-worshipping elf knows that when he or she dies she will immediately awaken in the Blessed Realm with a new body and live happily ever after. Until they die (or go over the sea voluntarilly) they don't age physically either. This gives them the option of simply ignoring and out living mortal enemies.

The Rose Dragon
2008-04-17, 04:55 AM
http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/images/elves.jpg

Need I say more?

Yes, because the image doesn't show.

Swordguy
2008-04-17, 05:33 AM
I think people are drawn to elves because they represent a human ideal: Immortal, beautiful, powerful and filled with romantic mystery. Like an eternal Lord Byron.

It's the heart of heroic fantasy, really. People love them because they want to be them.



This. The desire to touch the divine has been a part of humanity since the dawn of civilization. Elves, especially the popular view of elves via JRRT, has them as being semi-divine. They are as close as we are likely to get...and if we are as awesome as a scruffy Ranger from the North, there may well be some hot human-elvish fornication. (http://www.leasticoulddo.com/comic/20031216) (SFW)

That;s a pretty powerful motivation.

Vael Nir
2008-04-17, 05:37 AM
I like Elves for the following reasons:

- grace
- chaotic tendencies
- artistic

That's all. I've played an evereskan Elf who found the human way to be more interesting than the elven, joined a crew of smugglers, eventually was forced to serve as navigator on a pirate vessel before escaping... he wasn't emo, aloof or tragic, just pragmatic.

Talya
2008-04-17, 06:18 AM
Elves are great: recognizably human--in fact, extremely attractive to humans, the whole lot of them, very long (often immortal) lifespans. Who wouldn't want to be one? Why be a short ugly creature (or a tall ugly creature) when one can border on angelic?

Swordguy
2008-04-17, 06:24 AM
Elves are great: recognizably human--in fact, extremely attractive to humans, the whole lot of them, very long (often immortal) lifespans. Who wouldn't want to be one? Why be a short ugly creature (or a tall ugly creature) when one can border on angelic?

Especially appealing for gamers, who have a distressing tendency to be short, ugly creatures. :smallwink:

Kizara
2008-04-17, 06:32 AM
Especially appealing for gamers, who have a distressing tendency to be short, ugly creatures. :smallwink:

Thread won.

Swordguy
2008-04-17, 06:40 AM
Thread won.

W00t! Another for my sig!

asphen fox
2008-04-17, 06:40 AM
I'd like to point out a couple of things that are very different from LOTR Elves and DND Elves though;

-LOTR Elves are immortal. They die, yes, but they get resurrected for free by the Valar in a whole new body, much younger and stronger than before with all memories intact. DND Elves have elongated lifespans though they still die like humans.

-LOTR Elves seem to be more Lawful than Chaotic. And

-They don't seem to do magic much. It has been explained that whatever magical things they seem to be doing are nothing more than natural abilities by them. The reason they seem magical is because LOTR was written with a hobbit's POV in mind.

kamikasei
2008-04-17, 08:20 AM
Song of Fire and Ice has none

I'm pretty sure the "children of the forest" are meant to be elves or something like elves, just more fey and feral, and no longer active in the human world.

WalkingTarget
2008-04-17, 10:53 AM
I'm pretty sure the "children of the forest" are meant to be elves or something like elves, just more fey and feral, and no longer active in the human world.

George R. R. Martin (http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/bn/board/message?board.id=CenterStage&thread.id=1147&view=by_date_ascending&page=6) - "No, no elves. The children are... well, the children.

Westeros has its giants too, so there are other races in my world. But no elves. Elves have been done to death."

So he's specifically saying that they are not elves. You're free to draw parallels to elves if you wish, I suppose, but that's not what he's going for.


I'd like to point out a couple of things that are very different from LOTR Elves and DND Elves though;

-LOTR Elves are immortal. They die, yes, but they get resurrected for free by the Valar in a whole new body, much younger and stronger than before with all memories intact. DND Elves have elongated lifespans though they still die like humans.

-LOTR Elves seem to be more Lawful than Chaotic. And

-They don't seem to do magic much. It has been explained that whatever magical things they seem to be doing are nothing more than natural abilities by them. The reason they seem magical is because LOTR was written with a hobbit's POV in mind.

The "immortality" is a bit more complex than that. It's not so much that they get resurrected by the Valar, that's just the designated respawn point. Since they don't degrade with age, the term "younger" doesn't really make much difference for them. Elves' souls are tied to the material world. At least one (FŽanor's mother, MŪriel) declined to come back and remains in the Halls of Mandos. This is still a source of sorrow for them as, while they do have an immortality while the world lasts, men get to go on to something else after they die.

Their "magic" is, as stated by Tolkien in his letters, their skill with Art. They are tied to the material world to an extent that their abilities in "subcreation" is unrivaled. Fighting orcs? Here's a sword that warns you when they're near, pains them to even look at, and is really good at cutting stuff. Traveling in hostile territory? Here's a cloak that is very good camouflage in a variety of settings, it'll even keep you warm. Taking a long trip? Here's some food that is lightweight, long-lasting, extremely nutritious, and, on top of all of that, delicious. Writing a lullaby? If it's good enough, it'll even put the source of all evil in the world, the original Dark Lord himself, to sleep.

They're simply very good at making whatever it is that they are making exactly what that thing should be.

As for the varieties of Elves. In Tolkien at least, he had worked out two languages (Quenya and Sindarin, based on the phonologies of Finnish and Welsh respectively) and started using linguistic theory to explain how they were related (working back to a "common" ancestor). He then worked up a "history" to explain the split in the languages and pretty much every time a group of elves split off from another, he wound up with another "type" of elf. The High Elves have a tangible advantage for having lived in the undying lands with the settings' gods, but other than cultural distinctions, there's not much different between the Sindar, Nandor, or even probably the Avari. Later writers have different "types" of elves being distinctly different from one another. Hell, Tolkien never even indicates that Elves have pointed ears to distinguish them from humans (and particularly splendid humans get confused with elves occasionally; we're just variations on the same divine tune after all). His letters even mention that he regretted using the terms "elf" and "dwarf" due to the pre-existing connotations the words carried.

Wow, that got a lot longer than I had intended... :smallredface:

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 10:59 AM
I prefer Pratchett's Elves. Seems more realistic.


Elves are wonderful. They bring wonder.
Elves are awesome. They inspire awe.
Elves are marvellous. They create marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They fulfil fantasies.
Elves are terrific. They cause terror.

Elves are beautiful and terrible, but after
a while we forget that they were terrible,
and only remember the beauty.

If you want to find the true face of the elves,
look for them behind words that have changed
their meanings, hiding like snakes in the grass.

Nobody says elves are nice.

Elves are bad.

TehJhu
2008-04-17, 11:16 AM
you're a Human in real life, so why bother being one in your imagination?).


Bonus feat.

Telonius
2008-04-17, 11:21 AM
Fine, what's your explanation for 31 flavors of elves? :smallamused:

Baskin the Magnificent and Sir Robbins the Brave. Ben and Jerry were the founders of the Druidic sect that many elves belong to.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-17, 11:30 AM
That said Song of Fire and Ice has none, Gemmell's writing has none, Joe Abercrombe has none, Robbin Hobb has none.

Robert E. Howard had none, Fritz Leiber had none...

Yeah, they sure are in all the fantasy.

Oh, wait, they're only so common in unoriginal, derivative (usually of D&D, since the 70s) fantasy schlock that nobody should be reading anyway.


But, curiously enough, there's nothing wrong with elves. The Mer (Elf) mythology of the Elder Scrolls series is one of my favorite things in any fantasy setting. (Especially hilarious yet cool in a typical Arena way is the way orcs were created from elves; the Daedra, Boethiah consumed the Aedra, Trinimac, and excreted him out as Malacath, Daedric Prince of Outcasts, and Trinimac's Aldmer followers were turned into the Orcs.)



tell that to the night elves, wild elves, forest elves, high elves, dark elves, gray elves, half elves and every variation thereof

Night elves?

And I think the duergar/grey dwarves, gold/hill dwarves, shield/mountain dwarves, jungle dwarves, arctic dwarves, deep dwarves, end the like might want a word with you. There's like under a 10% difference in the number of subraces.


Also, yeah, elves and fantasy in general totally didn't exist until the LotR movies, or at least certainly weren't popular.

Kids these days...

elliott20
2008-04-17, 11:48 AM
never really caught on with elves. they just feel too much like some odd geek wish fulfillment about their looks. plus, I've had elves ruined for me when I had to game with this girl who plays every elf like it's some freakin' Bishoujo/Bishonen character. Then there were the goths who play elves because vampire LA was too high. They didn't help much either.

Doresain
2008-04-17, 12:01 PM
We use the extra room for more poetic words, like "thoughtcrime."

you deserve a beer

Jayngfet
2008-04-17, 01:40 PM
Night elves?

And I think the duergar/grey dwarves, gold/hill dwarves, shield/mountain dwarves, jungle dwarves, arctic dwarves, deep dwarves, end the like might want a word with you. There's like under a 10% difference in the number of subraces

I wasn't counting the variations for a reason, I've seen more games with an underwater elf than say... a jungle dwarf, and then theres warcraft's dirivitive species not taken into account

harpies, naga, satyrs, broken, banshees, trolls of every kind, the things that look like elves that aren't, dryads, children of cenarious...

and that's just one game without mentioning the actual elves

It's not that I hate elves, just that they seem a tad overused...

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 02:19 PM
It's not that I hate elves, just that they seem a tad overused...

I kinda feel that way about dragons. They're kind of losing there air of reverence, now that anyone can easily be part dragon. Dragon Disciple was cool, and Dragonfire Adept was nifty, but everything else just seems too much to me. Yeah, it's in the name, but they just aren't special any more. Isn't half-dragon a base race in 4e? I heard that somewhere, I can't remember. makes me sad.


but, anyway, elves. yeah. Too many elves. Aren't they supposed to be dying out or something? Why are there so many?

Turcano
2008-04-17, 07:09 PM
but, anyway, elves. yeah. Too many elves. Aren't they supposed to be dying out or something? Why are there so many?

It depends on the setting; in Steven Brust's books, there are, like, three or four recurring character's who aren't elves.

Jayngfet
2008-04-17, 08:01 PM
I kinda feel that way about dragons. They're kind of losing there air of reverence, now that anyone can easily be part dragon. Dragon Disciple was cool, and Dragonfire Adept was nifty, but everything else just seems too much to me. Yeah, it's in the name, but they just aren't special any more. Isn't half-dragon a base race in 4e? I heard that somewhere, I can't remember. makes me sad.


but, anyway, elves. yeah. Too many elves. Aren't they supposed to be dying out or something? Why are there so many?

tell that to the night elves.

Archpaladin Zousha
2008-04-17, 09:03 PM
China Miťville doesn't have any elves in his books, if I recall correctly.

I personally don't like elves, mainly because they're all depicted as slim and fit. It seems to be a wish-fulfillment fantasy of overweight, lazy gamers who wish they could be supermodel slim.

I personally prefer dwarves. And I think dwarf women are hot.

Ascension
2008-04-17, 10:13 PM
Elves are alright, though I prefer for them to be arrogant to the point of active racism against pretty much everybody else. I would have them tend towards LN rather than the 3.5 elves' CG slant. On the other hand, in an RPG setting they would be a great source of employment for adventurers, since they would consider all non-elven threats to be beneath them, and would probably farm the task of dealing with them out to the lowest bidder. They would find amusement in the pathetic struggles of the short lived races. The typical fantasy elf is just too overwhelmingly good. Oh, sure, there can be good individuals among them, but they need to be at least as fallible as humans.

I do feel sorry for dwarves, though. They're even more stereotyped than elves. Plus, while there are half-elves all over the place, even outside of the hybrid-crazy D&D-verse, half-dwarves are quite few and far between. If we assume that humans are more willing to mate with that which is most similar to them, this helps shove dwarves into a sub-human role.

Saihyol
2008-04-17, 10:26 PM
Always thought the Dark Sun Mul (half Dwarf) looked like a cool race to play - never got a chance to play in that world though :smallfrown:

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-17, 10:28 PM
I've run two campaigns now with elves being the oriental cultural analog. In the longest running campaign have run, they were the more traditional tolkienic style elf.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-17, 11:09 PM
Elves are alright, though I prefer for them to be arrogant to the point of active racism against pretty much everybody else. I would have them tend towards LN rather than the 3.5 elves' CG slant. On the other hand, in an RPG setting they would be a great source of employment for adventurers, since they would consider all non-elven threats to be beneath them, and would probably farm the task of dealing with them out to the lowest bidder. They would find amusement in the pathetic struggles of the short lived races. The typical fantasy elf is just too overwhelmingly good. Oh, sure, there can be good individuals among them, but they need to be at least as fallible as humans.

My elves are always like that. In the Cataclysm of Green setting, the Red Elves are violent savages who eat the other races. In another setting of mine, the elves are extremely xenophobic and fought huge wars against the other races purely to enslave or eradicate them.

Azukius
2008-04-17, 11:59 PM
Elves don't have words for your vulgar human bodily functions, like "pee" or "sex." Nor for base human desires like "freedom" and "individuality." We use the extra room for more poetic words, like "thoughtcrime."

indeed, doubleplusgood

Moral Wiz
2008-04-18, 12:43 AM
Me, I dislike elves, when done badly. They are overused, and that means that the standerd "Holy warrior of light GOODNESZ" won't cut it for me anymore. They can lead to bad roleplaying (though this is mostly due to inderviduals)

If someone can offer me an interesting take on them, I'll let it slide, but otherwise....

Bleen
2008-04-18, 01:08 AM
They are, when done as typical elves are done these days (poorly), either a race of beautiful, immortal, perfect mary-sues, or a nice big can of angst and depression. Both of those ideas have a certain appeal to certain..large groups of people.

This is also paired with the fact that, thanks to Tolkien, they are a common, accepted, and nearly expected mainstay of fantasy literature alongside dwarves, and there you go.

Jayngfet
2008-04-18, 01:22 AM
I think dwarf women are hot.

Ye gods man, whave you been drinking and where can I get some?

in retrospect at least you didnt say half orc...

Lord_Kimboat
2008-04-18, 07:02 AM
I don't hate Elves although I do have to say there are too damn many varieties. I do have something against Tolkien's whole morality/honourability thing. Sam is just about tugging his forelock every time he addresses Frodo and there is almost a worshipping of Elves. I can see how people think that they could be racist in the extreme.

Hmmm . . . lets see. Tall, Blonde (mostly, but some dark hairs around), fit, strong, precise, good at all things, Zhey might just be zee new Master Vrace! A thousand year reich!

I won't go on in to describe their hatred of the dirty, smelly, Dwarves but one can draw parallels.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-18, 07:56 AM
How many have actually read Silmarillion? (Which, like, actually deals with Middle-Earth's elves, rather than relegating them to secondary or tertiary roles.)

Tolkien's elves are largely racist, condescending to humans and treating them as children (even if many of them are "benevolent parents"). They are subject to the same passions that drive men to evil - lust, greed, jealousy, fear, suspicion... There are plenty of elven villains (Fešnor's sons), traitors, and plain evil elves (EŲl, the Dark Elf). As larger communities, they are hardly better in character than humans, and their heroes don't really rise above the greatest humans in moral character, even though they're superior in physical and magical power (which is mostly a result of living in Valinor and being thousands of years old, the Calaquendi being more powerful than the Moriquendi, and those who actually made the trek to Valinor being the greatest heroes).

Edit: I just looked at the topic and saw Jerry Seinfeld asking this on stage. Which I guess is appropriate, because "lol too many elf subraces" is the "What's the deal with airline food?" of D&D forums.

Doomsy
2008-04-18, 03:04 PM
Tolkien elves always made me kind of suspicious. I mean. They're all powerful, ancient, wise, etc. And they leave the One Ring to a bloody hobbit and his buddies to run up and throw into a volcano where Sauron practically lives.

Fantasy middle-management is a good term for people who come up with plans like that. And for the most part, the fantasy trend continues to show up with elves who in the Tolkien tradition, talk a good fight. Which is why I kind of detest them. At least dwarves do hard manual labor.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-18, 03:17 PM
How many have actually read Silmarillion? (Which, like, actually deals with Middle-Earth's elves, rather than relegating them to secondary or tertiary roles.)
*Raises hand*
If you've actually read the whole thing through, kudos to you, that is the hardest fantasy book to read. I still haven't read everything and it took me a good three years of reading spurts to get through it all.


Tolkien's elves are largely racist, condescending to humans and treating them as children (even if many of them are "benevolent parents"). They are subject to the same passions that drive men to evil - lust, greed, jealousy, fear, suspicion... There are plenty of elven villains (Fešnor's sons), traitors, and plain evil elves (EŲl, the Dark Elf). As larger communities, they are hardly better in character than humans, and their heroes don't really rise above the greatest humans in moral character, even though they're superior in physical and magical power (which is mostly a result of living in Valinor and being thousands of years old, the Calaquendi being more powerful than the Moriquendi, and those who actually made the trek to Valinor being the greatest heroes).
All very true, Tolkien's elves are great because they are close to human but not. They aren't all "blue-eyed, blonde beauties", there are a good number of dark-eyed, dark-haired, sickly looking elves. To men they seem mostly all beautiful, but really its just a shift in perspective. Unfortunately, very few people actually read what Tolkien's elves really are and thus the generic Legolas/Galadriel elf is all we see in fantasy nowadays.

Talya
2008-04-18, 04:06 PM
Tolkien's elves are largely racist, condescending to humans and treating them as children (even if many of them are "benevolent parents").

If I were 3000 years old, I would justifiably view any human as little more than a child, and that would be giving them too much credit.

Jade_Tarem
2008-04-18, 04:42 PM
Ye gods man, whave you been drinking and where can I get some?

in retrospect at least you didnt say half orc...

... or gnome.

Collin152
2008-04-18, 05:33 PM
... or gnome.

Don't go knocking my people!


...No, wait, I never noticed, but gnome women are ugly.
Good thing that doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

Torchlyte
2008-04-18, 06:00 PM
I always hated the whole "Elves are humans, 'cept better" thing. Then again, I don't like gnomes, dwarves, or halflings either.

Ascension
2008-04-18, 06:00 PM
Ye gods man, whave you been drinking and where can I get some?

in retrospect at least you didnt say half orc...

I really hate the whole "dwarf women are ugly and have beards! lol" thing. My favorite thing about Races of Stone is that all the dwarf women in it look like... women!

Although I will admit that when someone in one of my games played a bisexual dwarf who just flirted with everyone because he couldn't tell the difference, it was rather funny.

Collin152
2008-04-18, 06:07 PM
I really hate the whole "dwarf women are ugly and have beards! lol" thing. My favorite thing about Races of Stone is that all the dwarf women in it look like... women!

Although I will admit that when someone in one of my games played a bisexual dwarf who just flirted with everyone because he couldn't tell the difference, it was rather funny.

Wait-
Where do people get this "Dwarven women have Beards" idea?
I've never pictured them that way.
Not even all male dwarves have facial hair in my mind.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-18, 06:24 PM
Wait-
Where do people get this "Dwarven women have Beards" idea?
I've never pictured them that way.
Not even all male dwarves have facial hair in my mind.

Well, in the LotR: The Two Towers movie, Aragon makes the comment on the subject of why dwarf women look like the men "it's the beards". Of course, it can be assumed to be a joke, but some people might take it seriously, other than that I have no idea where it could come from. Personally, its just a joke, nothing serious. Also, I think dwarven beards are a cultural thing to do with mining, it helps filter the air, however, a smithy would have a much shorter beard or none at all for fear of getting caught in his work, or worse, on fire.

@ Torchlyte: So, what race besides human do you like or at least grudgingly accept? Or are you in the group who say "we're all human, thus we can't truly roleplay another race"?

Saihyol
2008-04-18, 06:43 PM
I don't remember a conversation about dwarf women in the LOTR (books). Pratchett's dwarf women have beards.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-18, 06:54 PM
I believe it's one of the appendices to LotR that mentions that most people will not know that they have just met a dwarf woman (who are, to boot, rarer than men). This implies beards.

Plus it just seems really obvious to me. If the males are so hirsute, then the females obviously must get sideburns at the very least, and probably proper beards. They're not short humans, they're a separate species. (Goes right along with elf men not having beards.)


*Raises hand*
If you've actually read the whole thing through, kudos to you, that is the hardest fantasy book to read. I still haven't read everything and it took me a good three years of reading spurts to get through it all.

Hardest my bum! It's wonderful, more like actual mythology or medieval tales than a modern fantasy novel. Now, reading the Mordor bits of LotR was hard. (Although the hardest books are still, by far, Edding's Tales of Tamuli. My reading of them was, paradoxically, entirely supported by rage toward the books and the author.)

Collin152
2008-04-18, 06:59 PM
Plus it just seems really obvious to me. If the males are so hirsute, then the females obviously must get sideburns at the very least, and probably proper beards. They're not short humans, they're a separate species. (Goes right along with elf men not having beards.)


Please note that in many mammals, there are vrey distinct features reserved for males.
For the most obvious one, besides humans, look at lions. A lioness doesn't get a mane.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-18, 07:09 PM
Please note that in many mammals, there are vrey distinct features reserved for males.
For the most obvious one, besides humans, look at lions. A lioness doesn't get a mane.

Lion appearances seem pretty irrelevant to dwarf appearances. In fact, that was kind of the point. How other creatures look has no bearing on how dwarves look; meanwhile, LotR's appendices suggest that dwarf women are indistinguishable from the notoriously bearded dwarf men. 1-0 for bearded dwarf women.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-18, 07:10 PM
Hardest my bum! It's wonderful, more like actual mythology or medieval tales than a modern fantasy novel. Now, reading the Mordor bits of LotR was hard. (Although the hardest books are still, by far, Edding's Tales of Tamuli. My reading of them was, paradoxically, entirely supported by rage toward the books and the author.)

Hey, in my defense, I started it when I was like...10 (I started over a few years later). And I technically didn't read the LotR books, my mom read them to me. You know, I just realized how weird that, is when most people where little kids they got stories like Cinderella and sleeping beauty, I got Lord of the Rings! My mom is freaking awesome! Anyway, The Silmarillion is definitely one of the best books written, any respectable LotR fan must have read it to understand anything.

@ Saihyol: It was one of those comic-relief things put into the movie, filler to show the exodus of the Rohan to Helm's Deep. It was not in the book.

Collin152
2008-04-18, 07:55 PM
Lion appearances seem pretty irrelevant to dwarf appearances. In fact, that was kind of the point. How other creatures look has no bearing on how dwarves look; meanwhile, LotR's appendices suggest that dwarf women are indistinguishable from the notoriously bearded dwarf men. 1-0 for bearded dwarf women.

One: It shows precedant for non-humans having male specific facial hair.
Two: The picture in the Players Handbook clearly shows a Dwarven woman without a beard.

John Campbell
2008-04-18, 08:16 PM
Especially appealing for gamers, who have a distressing tendency to be short, ugly creatures. :smallwink:

Hey!

I'm not short.

Saihyol
2008-04-18, 08:21 PM
@ Saihyol: It was one of those comic-relief things put into the movie, filler to show the exodus of the Rohan to Helm's Deep. It was not in the book.

I haven't read LOTR in a while, so I wasn't sure and the Silmarillion, Lost Tales and others were long before my last reading of that.

As a kid I thought reading was boring, my Dad read the first few chapters of the Hobbit to me over three nights then started making excuses why he couldn't read any more. After a week I'd read the rest of it myself and a few months later I'd finished the LOTRs, the rest as they say is history...

Awesome guy my Dad. :smallsmile:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-18, 10:19 PM
Two: The picture in the Players Handbook clearly shows a Dwarven woman without a beard.

And elves look like baboons, as Mialee proves.

Man, this is great logic!

I never quite got why people have this ridiculously emotional reaction to the idea of dwarven women with beards. Are nerds really that afraid of hairy women?

Torchlyte
2008-04-18, 10:47 PM
@ Torchlyte: So, what race besides human do you like or at least grudgingly accept? Or are you in the group who say "we're all human, thus we can't truly roleplay another race"?

I prefer homebrew races, or at least rehashes of the old ones. For instance, it always annoyed me that Eragon/Eldest used elves and dwarves, but I thought Urgals were interesting.

Also, Redcloak.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-18, 11:01 PM
I prefer homebrew races, or at least rehashes of the old ones. For instance, it always annoyed me that Eragon/Eldest used elves and dwarves, but I thought Urgals were interesting.

Also, Redcloak.

I have to admit that I agree with you, I hardly ever make a homebrew setting without heavy racial modifications. Even if I decided to keep the "normal" races, I change their fluff, and sometimes their crunch, enough to make them different. Races are my homebrew specialty.


On the point about Eragon, I detested those elves, they are the incarnation of the stereotypical modern elf, perfect in every way, I hate that, Tolkien elves are completely different. However, the Eragon books have some interesting takes on the dwarves, though mostly adhering to the common theme, there were some new aspects and I do like the Urgals quite a bit, they are not orcs, but just as cool as Uruk-hai. In fact, the part of the Eragon movie that pissed me off the most was how the Urgals were completely misrepresented, they didn't even have horns! They seemed like a bunch of barbaric humans, not the animalistic bull-people they were supposed to be (bull is the closest I can think of though really they are all their own).

Collin152
2008-04-18, 11:16 PM
Are nerds really that afraid of hairy women?

That's a definite possibility, but it doesn't apply to me.

Please note, however, that I prefer clean shaven men.

Jayngfet
2008-04-19, 12:22 AM
I really hate the whole "dwarf women are ugly and have beards! lol" thing. My favorite thing about Races of Stone is that all the dwarf women in it look like... women!

Although I will admit that when someone in one of my games played a bisexual dwarf who just flirted with everyone because he couldn't tell the difference, it was rather funny.

guess I just have this thing about short, broad women with night vision eyes.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 12:28 AM
Eragon is nothing more than a bad glorified fan fiction
from
EE

Collin152
2008-04-19, 12:30 AM
Eragon is nothing more than a bad glorified fan fiction
from
EE

I agree wholeheartedly.
And the movie is utter rubbish, and clearly not based on the conents of the book so much as descriptions of it.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 12:32 AM
I agree wholeheartedly.
And the movie is utter rubbish, and clearly not based on the conents of the book so much as descriptions of it.

when the movie makes me stand in support of the book as a better form of media, that is pretty bad
from
EE

Torchlyte
2008-04-19, 12:32 AM
Eragon is nothing more than a bad glorified fan fiction

...and this is one of the reasons why. :smallamused:

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 12:33 AM
...and this is one of the reasons why. :smallamused:

eh what now?
from
EE

Collin152
2008-04-19, 12:36 AM
eh what now?
from
EE

I hope he's referring to the elves.
Or possibly the dwarves.
Or the orcs Urgals.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 12:46 AM
I hope he's referring to the elves.
Or possibly the dwarves.
Or the orcs Urgals.

Or everyone's favorite Gary Sue sociopathic main character

Or Arwin the female character.

Or the Dragon, um, i think her name was "Badly produced plot device"
ug
from
EE

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-19, 12:49 AM
I will agree that Eragon is the perfect example of "poorly portrayed elves" who are unfortunately all too common. However, I must say that I do enjoy the series especially the second book which is an enormous improvement of the first I think its because the magic system is exactly the kind of spoken magic I like, it is what truename magic should be.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 12:50 AM
I'll just say that if I want Telepathic Dragons I'll read some of the Pern books and not try and murder a fictional species each time one of its representatives speak.

kamikasei
2008-04-19, 05:46 AM
I believe it's one of the appendices to LotR that mentions that most people will not know that they have just met a dwarf woman (who are, to boot, rarer than men). This implies beards.

They are "so like in voice and appearance" to dwarf men that "the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart" (RotK p450).


Plus it just seems really obvious to me. If the males are so hirsute, then the females obviously must get sideburns at the very least, and probably proper beards. They're not short humans, they're a separate species. (Goes right along with elf men not having beards.)

Elves can grow beards (Cirdan did), they just usually don't, whether by choice or genetics.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-19, 09:03 AM
Elves can grow beards (Cirdan did), they just usually don't, whether by choice or genetics.

He did have a beard? What's the source? I was always curious about the picture in the Lords of Middle Earth Vol. 1 supplement that showed a bearded Cirdan - I figured there had to be a reason, but never knew what!


Eragon is a great example of how to get your crap Star Wars fantasy-version fanfic published: have your parents own a publishing company. With marketing, you can still make it into a movie, because people have no freaking taste. You can not get more derivative, unoriginal, and pathetic than an "author" citing freaking David Eddings as an inspiration.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 10:59 AM
Eragon is a great example of how to get your crap Star Wars fantasy-version fanfic published: have your parents own a publishing company. With marketing, you can still make it into a movie, because people have no freaking taste. You can not get more derivative, unoriginal, and pathetic than an "author" citing freaking David Eddings as an inspiration.

Reminds me of what my friend said when he walked out of the theater: "It was alright, I guess, but I liked it better when it was Star Wars... and again when it was Lord of the Rings"

Dervag
2008-04-19, 12:05 PM
Eragon is a great example of how to get your crap Star Wars fantasy-version fanfic published: have your parents own a publishing company. With marketing, you can still make it into a movie, because people have no freaking taste. You can not get more derivative, unoriginal, and pathetic than an "author" citing freaking David Eddings as an inspiration.Hey, Eddings sells (or at least he used to; I don't know how things stand now). There has to be something about his style that merits being treated as inspiration.

That said, the thing in question is almost certainly not the depth of his plots or characters. Eddings is very deliberate about using 'archetypal' characters and quests in his novels. He does it on purpose, which means that anyone who's looking for impressive original characters and plots that no one has ever done anything like is going to be in for a disappointment.

At a guess, I'd say that it's a "feel" thing. Eddings is good at giving you a sense that his characters are in a real world rather than a fairyland. Or at least he used to be; I don't know about how things stand now.

I haven't read anything he's written since "Redemption of Althalus," to be honest.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-19, 12:51 PM
Hey, Eddings sells (or at least he used to; I don't know how things stand now). There has to be something about his style that merits being treated as inspiration.

No.

Just because something sells doesn't mean it's even remotely good. People will eat up any kind of schlock that's in their niche. David Eddings, Robert Jordan, Chris Paolini, AD&D novels...

Rion
2008-04-19, 02:31 PM
So far most have talked about how "perfect" the elves are, and I agree, it's incredibly annoying. But I have to say there exist one thing I hate even more about elves, and that's when they are Wood Elves of the "hippies-crossed-with-native-americans" variety.

Whenever I use Wood Elves they are more like a cross between the celts and the welsh with pack mentality of wolves added in. Instead of "Nature must be protected, put out all forest fires, animals are cute" like other Wood Elves they are more of "Nature is far stronger it doesn't need protection, nature's way is killed or be killed".

Wardog
2008-04-19, 03:38 PM
So far most have talked about how "perfect" the elves are, and I agree, it's incredibly annoying. But I have to say there exist one thing I hate even more about elves, and that's when they are Wood Elves of the "hippies-crossed-with-native-americans" variety.

Whenever I use Wood Elves they are more like a cross between the celts and the welsh with pack mentality of wolves added in. Instead of "Nature must be protected, put out all forest fires, animals are cute" like other Wood Elves they are more of "Nature is far stronger it doesn't need protection, nature's way is killed or be killed".

Yes, that does sound a much more interesting take on wood elves.

In a slightly similar vein, I quite like Warcraft's Night Elves.

"They almost look like elves, but they're far too tall, and far too savage!"
- Grom Hellscream (Ultimate Badass Orc blademaster, for those not familiar with the series), on first meeting them.

"These women fight with unmatched savagery. They are... perfect warriors!"
- Grom again.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 03:44 PM
I liked some of eddings work, he does a good job of potraying the logic in his world, something eragon lacks
from
EE

AKA_Bait
2008-04-19, 04:25 PM
As a kid I thought reading was boring, my Dad read the first few chapters of the Hobbit to me over three nights then started making excuses why he couldn't read any more. After a week I'd read the rest of it myself and a few months later I'd finished the LOTRs, the rest as they say is history...


My dad actualy did something similar. Even though I was ahead of the reading curve as a kid I didn't like to read. Of course, I did like being read to... So, when I was pretty small he would read me the entire LotR every night and then take the book with him. Except for right before when Frodo gets to Mt. Doom. Then he only read a little and 'accidentally' left the book in my room...

I plan to do the same thing to my children. :smallamused:

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 04:38 PM
My dad actualy did something similar. Even though I was ahead of the reading curve as a kid I didn't like to read. Of course, I did like being read to... So, when I was pretty small he would read me the entire LotR every night and then take the book with him. Except for right before when Frodo gets to Mt. Doom. Then he only read a little and 'accidentally' left the book in my room...

I plan to do the same thing to my children. :smallamused:

I feel odd now, i just read the hobbit when i was eight, LotRs when i was ten
from
EE

AKA_Bait
2008-04-19, 04:47 PM
I feel odd now, i just read the hobbit when i was eight, LotRs when i was ten
from
EE

No reason to feel odd. I'm pretty sure this happened when I was six. After that my dad tried getting me to fall asleep by giving me Sartre to read. Backfired. If anyone is odd here... it's me.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 04:51 PM
I feel odd now, i just read the hobbit when i was eight, LotRs when i was ten
from
EE

I could and had been reading since before I could... well, anything else, and my love of reading has done nothing but grow.
Hooray for the literary inclined!

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-19, 05:16 PM
You know, I really shouldn't be amazed at how many people read/were read LotR, the Hobbit, etc. considering roleplaying is basically the next level above reading, RPing is writing the story collectively and enjoying in its composition so it should not be surprising that people who RP started reading earlier than your average kid. We're all geeks here :smallbiggrin: I mean seriously, reflect on this very thread, we're arguing about how screwed up elves are! Who geeky can you get? (Not that that is a bad thing)

Rion
2008-04-19, 06:07 PM
My first half year of school I refused to read as I couldn't see a reason for it, then my mother told me about LoTR and when the year ended I was the best in my class.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 06:10 PM
You know, I really shouldn't be amazed at how many people read/were read LotR, the Hobbit, etc. considering roleplaying is basically the next level above reading, RPing is writing the story collectively and enjoying in its composition so it should not be surprising that people who RP started reading earlier than your average kid. We're all geeks here :smallbiggrin: I mean seriously, reflect on this very thread, we're arguing about how screwed up elves are! Who geeky can you get? (Not that that is a bad thing)


We should make an elite private club
from
EE

SurlySeraph
2008-04-19, 07:50 PM
Personally, it just annoys me when elves are treated and talked about as if they were superior, but aren't statted as such. A proper elf race would have about a +3 LA, stat bonuses to everything except maybe strength, various spell-like and extraordinary abilities, and more. I don't mind elves being better at everything, I mind them being better at everything when there isn't a real good reason in the rules for them to be better.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-19, 08:10 PM
My first half year of school I refused to read as I couldn't see a reason for it, then my mother told me about LoTR and when the year ended I was the best in my class.

Yet another testimonial to the power of the great Church of Adra to help change lives. Join our fellowship to help purge the corruption of industrialization from the world and spread the gospel of our great founder J.R.R. Tolkien, Ayia Ilķvatar!

Trizap
2008-04-19, 08:27 PM
Bonus feat.

more skill points

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 08:29 PM
Eragon is a steaming pile, and I was burning through novels before first grade. I'm horrified that crap like that sells, and well. Is the idea of providing a deep plot that is devoid of lame cliches like the farmboy that obtains real ultimate power essentially overnight so absurd a notion that we have to see it over and over again in every piece of literary filth to milk the cow that is people's inclination to gravitate to the shiny? :smallfurious:

Elves are boring. They were before Tolkien got ahold of them, and they are even worse now. They are just humans, only better, and with pointy ears. Woo. I'm freaking thrilled. I want to be a pointy eared perfect person too! I'd rather a fantasy film that was all human.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-19, 08:55 PM
Eragon is a steaming pile

Hey! Don't insult the plot where the farmboy gets a message from the princess and goes to become the last member of an ancient race of guardians while being helped by a mysterious old man who dies to save the farmboy during the princess's rescue! Then the farmboy goes off and joins the rebellion and wins the day against impossible odds using his newfound magic in a cool aerial battle!


It worked just fine for starwars.

That said, I was considering that. Make all elves get like, 60xint modifier skill points, a half dozen bonus feats, loads of supernatural abilities, and a huge LA. You know, cause when you live for 5000 years, you get GOOD.

Personally I've always admired dwarves a good deal more.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 08:59 PM
Elves in works of fiction are awesome because they are high level.
Being freakishly old tends to do that.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 09:32 PM
My two main points

1) Eragon is the work of a hack
2) elves should be more powerful considering their lifespans/general awsomeness

and
3) Dwarves are amazing
from
EE

GrassyGnoll
2008-04-19, 09:54 PM
Aside from Figwit (http://www.figwitlives.net/) I am generally irked by elves. Sleek, wise hippies who are all but missing a feat to make their poo not reek. I lend my wholesale support to drow in their genocidal quest to exterminate the tree huggers.

Up to a point I tolerated their androgyny and acrobatics, until WoW was released. Then everyone and their DM who saw Lord of the Rings had to make a Night Elf hunter/rogue. The only thing they had going for them was the possibility they may have evolved from trolls, and trolls rock.

Eldariel
2008-04-19, 10:21 PM
Up to a point I tolerated their androgyny and acrobatics, until WoW was released. Then everyone and their DM who saw Lord of the Rings had to make a Night Elf hunter/rogue. The only thing they had going for them was the possibility they may have evolved from trolls, and trolls rock.

There's a very easy solution to this: Stay far, far away from WoW. Seriously, that'll allow you to retain the coolness of Elves in your mind, save 24 hours daily time for something useful, such as sleeping, and gain a high ground over everyone selling their souls to WoW.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-19, 10:26 PM
There's a very easy solution to this: Stay far, far away from WoW. Seriously, that'll allow you to retain the coolness of Elves in your mind, save 24 hours daily time for something useful, such as sleeping, and gain a high ground over everyone selling their souls to WoW.

I wish I could do that but two of my players are WoW players, a third is a former WoW but he prefers roleplaying while the yours do both.

GrassyGnoll
2008-04-19, 10:52 PM
I gotta defend the warcraft series, though. I grew up on Warcraft II and Starcraft, so Blizzard has a lease on my soul. I was ok with High Elves, I was ok with them beating back the most ancient and badass race ever with fire, I was downright pleased with them getting all of their bony butts handed to them by Arthas. What I was not ok with was how for 10,000 years they never bothered to tell humans there happened to be an ENTIRE FRIGGIN' CONTINENT on the other side of the sea. Blizzard tries too hard to patch things together by retconning, but when the story moves forward I immediately forgive them. Without their big pool o' magic suddenly the pristine elves lose their cool, they make deals with naga, demons, establish a fel kingdom in Outland, and capture Light itself in order to distill magic from it. It's fun to see elves go bad.

Last note. Someone earlier said trolls were a derivation of elves in warcraft. But before night elves even existed trolls had established two continent spanning empires. They still have a nation ruled by their scholarly forefathers in the shadow of the Maelstrom where they gather to exchange diplomats on neutral ground.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 11:01 PM
oh gods, WoW elves, i feel your pain. there are so many of them
from
E

Agrippa
2008-04-19, 11:10 PM
Personally, it just annoys me when elves are treated and talked about as if they were superior, but aren't statted as such. A proper elf race would have about a +3 LA, stat bonuses to everything except maybe strength, various spell-like and extraordinary abilities, and more. I don't mind elves being better at everything, I mind them being better at everything when there isn't a real good reason in the rules for them to be better.

I tried doing something like that once under the screen name Duke Malagigi. I decided to make them make Celtic in nature and give them something of a warrior ethos, even though the elves get a -2 penalty to Strength. They're just too crazy to care that they're not that strong. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68758).

Dervag
2008-04-19, 11:13 PM
Eragon is a steaming pile, and I was burning through novels before first grade. I'm horrified that crap like that sells, and well. Is the idea of providing a deep plot that is devoid of lame cliches like the farmboy that obtains real ultimate power essentially overnight so absurd a notion that we have to see it over and over again in every piece of literary filth to milk the cow that is people's inclination to gravitate to the shiny?Maybe the reason that plots along the lines of "peasant boy becomes supernatural guardian and saves the world" keep selling is because a large number of people enjoy reading them. This is why there's a difference between an 'archetype' and a 'cliche'. A cliche is something that has been used enough times that it is no longer good and is no longer appealing.

If it still appeals to many people, but not to you, does that mean that all people except the tiny sliver who share your tastes are stupid cattle? Or does it mean that you're dismissing a plot as cliched on the grounds that you, personally, dislike it?

I'm not going to speak to the quality of the book or movie Eragon one way or the other, having neither read the former nor seen the latter. I can easily see why it could be a trashy novel, given the manifest inexperience of its author.

But there are not and can never be enough genuinely original plot ideas in the world to appease someone who goes looking for recurring themes in fiction and decides to hold in contempt every work of fiction that uses them.

For an example of what I mean, go to the famous tvtropes.org. Look around on there for examples of tropes that are used in fiction often enough to come up all over the place, across decades and across genres. You'll be hard pressed to find a work of fiction on any level of quality which does not employ at least a few of the bigger ones.

I have no doubt that people have been telling stories about farmboys stumbling on high magic and ascending to great power with the aid of spirit guardians for as long as there have even been farms. If those stories were automatically bad, people would have stopped listening to them by now.

[/subversion]


Last note. Someone earlier said trolls were a derivation of elves in warcraft. But before night elves even existed trolls had established two continent spanning empires. They still have a nation ruled by their scholarly forefathers in the shadow of the Maelstrom where they gather to exchange diplomats on neutral ground.Nonono. They said it the other way around. They said elves may have been descended from trolls

John Campbell
2008-04-19, 11:17 PM
Who geeky can you get?

You can translate an RPG webcomic based on the Star Wars movies into Klingon (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/darthsanddroids/episodes_tlh/0001_tlh.html).

I'm really not sure how it's possible to top that.

Saihyol
2008-04-19, 11:26 PM
You can translate an RPG webcomic based on the Star Wars movies into Klingon (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/darthsanddroids/episodes_tlh/0001_tlh.html).

I'm really not sure how it's possible to top that.

An awesome level of geek - also from now on my core defense that I am not truly a geek :smallcool:

GrassyGnoll
2008-04-19, 11:34 PM
I wasn't counting the variations for a reason, I've seen more games with an underwater elf than say... a jungle dwarf, and then theres warcraft's dirivitive species not taken into account

harpies, naga, satyrs, broken, banshees, trolls of every kind, the things that look like elves that aren't, dryads, children of cenarious...

and that's just one game without mentioning the actual elves

It's not that I hate elves, just that they seem a tad overused...

Was what I was referring to. Since nagas, satyrs, banshees are all corruptions I thought he was talking about elves. I'd like to point out that children of Cenarius and dryads are essential the male/female versions of each other while centaurs are his bastard offspring with earth elementals.

And yeah, while I agree that trolls probably were the predecessors to night elves it isn't canon yet. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/troll/trollsandnightelves.html

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 11:45 PM
Okay, I've worked it out. Every single elf since the dawn of time is retarded. They're all given radiation poisoning at birth. This explains the plethora of subspecies AND the we-live-a-really-long-time-but-are-still-stupid problem.

EvilElitest
2008-04-19, 11:48 PM
Okay, I've worked it out. Every single elf since the dawn of time is retarded. They're all given radiation poisoning at birth. This explains the plethora of subspecies AND the we-live-a-really-long-time-but-are-still-stupid problem.

inbreeding solves everthing
from
EE

Jayngfet
2008-04-19, 11:49 PM
Okay, I've worked it out. Every single elf since the dawn of time is retarded. They're all given radiation poisoning at birth. This explains the plethora of subspecies AND the we-live-a-really-long-time-but-are-still-stupid problem.

don't most mutations kill off mutants young or make them infertile


guess that's what happened to the frog elves


and if anyone can show me and example of a frog elf they will be awarded the title of lord nerdy elfboon the third.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 11:52 PM
don't most mutations kill off mutants young or make them infertile

Now you know why there are so few elves.

Saihyol
2008-04-19, 11:54 PM
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm111/Saihyol/frogelf.jpg?t=1208667670

Anything for a title

Jayngfet
2008-04-20, 12:23 AM
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm111/Saihyol/frogelf.jpg?t=1208667670

Anything for a title

hail the elfboon!

Lord_Kimboat
2008-04-20, 12:29 AM
LotR does mention that Dwarven women have beards, as does Salvatore in the D'rzzt books. Which brings up more problems with Elves. The horrible, Emo dark Elf, evil-curious but not really, D'rzzt wannabe. That, and the fact that WotC, in their wisdom, have decided that Drow should be a core race in 4E has given me more than one sleepless night. *shudder*

Ceric
2008-04-20, 12:45 AM
Elves are boring. They were before Tolkien got ahold of them, and they are even worse now. They are just humans, only better, and with pointy ears. Woo. I'm freaking thrilled. I want to be a pointy eared perfect person too! I'd rather a fantasy film that was all human.

Yeah, but pointy ears are really easy to draw. A couple of lines, and longer is even easier. When I try to draw round ears, they always stick out and look huge. Always.

Hurlbut
2008-04-20, 12:53 AM
don't most mutations kill off mutants young or make them infertile. For most part yes, but what make us different are traits that were once mutations. They become traits when evolutation saw that they are more sucessful than the ones who does not have it.

Gralamin
2008-04-20, 01:20 AM
LotR does mention that Dwarven women have beards, as does Salvatore in the D'rzzt books. Which brings up more problems with Elves. The horrible, Emo dark Elf, evil-curious but not really, D'rzzt wannabe. That, and the fact that WotC, in their wisdom, have decided that Drow should be a core race in 4E has given me more than one sleepless night. *shudder*

Tieflings are the Core race, Drow are still enemies for the PCs to fight. (Sources: Worlds and Monsters, and Classes and Races)

Ossian
2008-04-20, 03:36 AM
There is always an unber race in every setting, which should be unplayable but is slammed into the mold of rules for the sake of fanboys.

It's the Protoss in starcraft (Protoss teenager should be the equivalent of 10 modern day US Marines)

It's the Jedi Knights of Star Wars (seriously, they could cream everything)

In fantasy it's the elven race. Being immortal and not leaving thir village before age 100 (all spent practising a dozen activities night and day) they should start at level 10 gestalt combat class/sorcerer.
Tolkien's elves are evn more unplayable, yet they are available in most fantasy roleplay. Come on, even with a different concept of time and the willing suspension of disbelief Legolas was a 3000 years old archer who spent 150 generations practising archery and knife fight and tracking, protecting his land from the Necromancer's minions in the freaking Mirkwood. All this in the body, tendos and muscles and sharp eyes of a teenager in his prime, with a divine insight that comes from his being somehow a relative of the eleder gods....

Elves are cool, but they should not be played....