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View Full Version : Get Your TV Out of My DnD!



Thinker
2008-04-17, 10:23 AM
There are many posts here and elsewhere that talk about what they want from an RPG. What people seem to misunderstand is that, like a television show, not every RPG is for every person. Even when a game changes editions it can become a whole different game and experience. This leads to the following: Get your TV out of my DnD!

Dungeons and Dragons: The standard by which all RPGs are measured. It has the longest history and the largest fan-base. With many editions coming out, it is constantly in a state of change.

DnD 4e is the Simpsons of RPGs. They aim at a large audience with little-to-no regard for a "core" group of players. People enjoy it because they don't have to think very hard about it. This is not a bad thing, itís a different thing.
DnD 3e would be the Seinfeld: it was also largely about a generalist approach and like Seinfeld, no matter what came out in a splat book you could be assured that nothing had really happened, wizards were always king. Both had a good, long run and both were not for everyone.
DnD 2e was easily Friends. It was a fun show that lots of people enjoyed, but there were better shows coming out at the same time. Its only saving grace was that it was on NBC (or had the DnD name) to draw new fans. There were plenty of good parts, but there was no reason it should triumph over its contemporaries.
DnD 1e is I Love Lucy. Nobody likes it or watches it, but everyone remembers it as being good. Late night reruns can still be found if you look hard enough, but they're mostly homage to a long gone time.

Mutants & Masterminds/True 20: These systems are very fun to play, but have a small fan-base. This makes them fit in with Futurama. Wildly popular, but often overshadowed by the likes of DnD because the basic system was created by the same people. They have some good ideas, but many people won't get to see them because they're too busy watching other things.
White Wolf: These elitists want everyone to know they think they're better than everyone. They practically say so in their advertising and they take themselves way too seriously, much like ER. They have "important emergencies" pop up all the time and deal with each one as though its the end of the world, much like how every main character in Exalted could cause the end of the world. The system is fun, but the producers leave a bit to be desired.
GURPS: This system should have been one of the greats, but sadly fell out of favor. A show that won all kinds of awards was very similar: Arrested Development. AD had the misfortune of being too complex for Joe Average, much like GURPS. It turns out the fans just wanted Fox to entertain, not make them think.

There are plenty of other systems out there to pick on and there is not necessarily anything wrong with any of them, or these for that matter. It seems like people get uppity about system-change because they don't want to just keep on watching reruns of their favorite shows, they want new stuff. They can make new episodes on their own by splicing together older ones or coming up with plots that make sense to themselves, but the fact is the producers long ago ran out of material and don't want to destroy storyline or rehash the same one. Like all tv shows, no system is inherently wrong, just wrong for certain people.

Morty
2008-04-17, 10:43 AM
Dammit. I thought it was going to be a thread about applying terms and methods from movies to tabletop roleplaying, which is a major beef of mine.
But on-topic, I agree. No system is for everybody, the problems start when people on both sides of discussion start using "I don't like it, therefore it means it's inherently wrong" argument.

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 11:18 AM
White Wolf: These elitists want everyone to know they think they're better than everyone. They practically say so in their advertising and they take themselves way too seriously, much like ER. They have "important emergencies" pop up all the time and deal with each one as though its the end of the world, much like how every main character in Exalted could cause the end of the world. The system is fun, but the producers leave a bit to be desired.


Totally true. My friend who runs a White Wolf game actually makes fun of me for playing D&D, as if she is less of a geek or something.

FinalJustice
2008-04-17, 01:09 PM
White Wolf: These elitists want everyone to know they think they're better than everyone. They practically say so in their advertising and they take themselves way too seriously, much like ER. They have "important emergencies" pop up all the time and deal with each one as though its the end of the world, much like how every main character in Exalted could cause the end of the world. The system is fun, but the producers leave a bit to be desired.

Typical undergraduate whinning. Graduate (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/graduateyourgame/) yourselves from D&D, children.

Sarcasm sign. That damn' stupid marketing made me hate White Wolf.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-17, 01:32 PM
I wouldn't say D&D 3e is like Seinfeld, since I don't want to beat the hell out of every 3rd edition PC for being a jackass (except Kramer). Nor was 3e/3.5e a particularly long runner as far as RPGs go.

Frasier, maybe? Spun off of a wildly popular base, evolved into a distinct style that still kept some unnecessary holdovers. And again, had the network name going for it.

Hazkali
2008-04-17, 01:39 PM
Typical undergraduate whinning. Graduate (http://secure1.white-wolf.com/graduateyourgame/) yourselves from D&D, children.

Sarcasm sign. That damn' stupid marketing made me hate White Wolf.

Wow. How unbelievably obnoxious, pretentious and condescending was that advert? *Shudders*

Morty
2008-04-17, 01:53 PM
The very best thing about this "advert" was how Exalted is apparently a better system because it gives PCs more power. By that logic, WFRPG is the most sucky system in existence.

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 02:02 PM
I have no problem with the white wolf system, just the attitude of the people who play it. It's kind of like the PC vs Mac thing. Not only do half the mac users I know have an unhealthy relationship with their computer, they take every opportunity to tell me how great it is. Although, I suppose I would have a use for my unnecessarily large collection of d10s. Personally, I like D&D as a happy medium between the RP heavy WW and the dice rolling of palladium. And to advertise your system as a necessarily more mature or sophisticated one? That pretty much makes you a total douche-bag, and will alienate half your consumer base.

purepolarpanzer
2008-04-17, 02:28 PM
Wow. How unbelievably obnoxious, pretentious and condescending was that advert? *Shudders*

He was joking. Shouldn't have made it so no one can see it, but I wanted to defuse this now.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-17, 02:33 PM
The very best thing about this "advert" was how Exalted is apparently a better system because it gives PCs more power. By that logic, WFRPG is the most sucky system in existence.

I suspect that what this means (though I'm not certain) is that it means power over plot, and ability to influence events, rather than being godlike.

My assumption for WFRPG is that it's likely that your character is weak, puny, and probably won't have a lot of influence on the world. But if they have good power over plot... actually I don't know how to finish that sentence because I'm not quite sure if I'm stating my own opinion, or speaking for White Wolf (which I'm really not in a position to). Being involved in the story is the whole point of roleplaying games. What that role is can vary. If you're not allowed to overcome appropriate obstacles for your level of significance creatively? Then it probably is a pretty sucky system. But more likely it's a sucky GM. Even if the system is against you, they can always metaphorically rip out parts of the rule book, and staple in a few extra pages. (I would not recommend this literally)

I could make guesses as to what White Wolf believe, but I don't really know much about how they think. As far as I can tell it's mostly that they just believe they have a superior game. Which in all honesty they might. I've got to say that I don't like some of the attitude in D&D. And Exalted seems to have some good design decisions (it might have some really bad ones, all my knowledge is second hand). But it's incredibly inappropriate to be that demeaning and condescending. Just because it's a bit better doesn't mean that you have to hammer it over people's heads.


That being said, I'd rather play a good game of D&D than a bad White Wolf one. And I'm definitely not going to insult people just because they play a particular game. Well, maybe FATAL...

Behold_the_Void
2008-04-17, 02:36 PM
He was joking. Shouldn't have made it so no one can see it, but I wanted to defuse this now.

He was, but White Wolf sure isn't.

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 02:52 PM
He was, but White Wolf sure isn't.

Yeah, I think the comments were more toward the wording in the advert itself.

any how, on the subject of power over plot, that definitely has less to do with the system and more to do with the GM. My current game is interesting in that my GM has inserted things that have nothing to do with the plot based around the PC's; There was an explosion at a nearby tavern that had nothing to do with our particular storyline, at least in terms with our BBEG. It was just something that our characters may or may not react to in a certain way, and gave the story background. it was kind of like the explosion at the beginning of Children of Men(movie, not the book. most of the explosions in the book occur "off screen"). There was no way for our characters to find the cause of the explosion, it was just part of the political situation and allowed us to develop our characters in terms of reactions to it.

hm. I wonder how relevant that was.

Thinker
2008-04-17, 02:57 PM
I wouldn't say D&D 3e is like Seinfeld, since I don't want to beat the hell out of every 3rd edition PC for being a jackass (except Kramer). Nor was 3e/3.5e a particularly long runner as far as RPGs go.

Frasier, maybe? Spun off of a wildly popular base, evolved into a distinct style that still kept some unnecessary holdovers. And again, had the network name going for it.

My comparison to Seinfeld was that no matter the events of the episode, nothing ever really changed for any of the characters. In DnD, no matter what splatbooks come out, Druid, Cleric, and Wizard are the most powerful classes. It was also a simple comedy that stuck to a formula. Frasier was an incredibly long run and most of their jokes were incredibly subtle or complex.

Feel free to add your own TV show - RPG system comparisons.

DraPrime
2008-04-17, 02:59 PM
I wonder if the people at White Wolf realize how incredibly arrogant they are?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-17, 03:07 PM
My comparison to Seinfeld was that no matter the events of the episode, nothing ever really changed for any of the characters. In DnD, no matter what splatbooks come out, Druid, Cleric, and Wizard are the most powerful classes. It was also a simple comedy that stuck to a formula. Frasier was an incredibly long run and most of their jokes were incredibly subtle or complex.

Feel free to add your own TV show - RPG system comparisons.You're probably right, I just can't stand Seinfeld, whereas D&D 3.5 is my second-favorite RPG, next to Mutants & Masterminds (but fortunately, Futurama is my very favorite show and massively underrated, so I agree with you there). And I think Frasier was a bit overrated in its "intelligence" myself, but I have high standards, and it was still a good show.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-17, 03:17 PM
I wonder if the people at White Wolf realize how incredibly arrogant they are?

Yeah....

suppose for a moment that we believe that marketing tripe - what would the next step be, Get your PHD, play Paranoia?

(failure to do so is treason)

Starbuck_II
2008-04-17, 03:20 PM
Okay, can get an analysis of Quantum Leap? It is like Futurama, but it was a little smart with all the science stuff like how he travels through time, but only in his own lifetime (until they broke that rule that one time).

Rutee
2008-04-17, 03:25 PM
Totally true. My friend who runs a White Wolf game actually makes fun of me for playing D&D, as if she is less of a geek or something.

I legitimately think DnD is a pretty bad system, frankly. Have done so /before/ I found White Wolf. That's why I jumped ship so quick. The primary problems have to do with the way classes end up being handled (I prefer them being closer to ability sets to pick up rather then holding a particular IC meaning..) and Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards)


I wonder if the people at White Wolf realize how incredibly arrogant they are?
Probably not. White Wolf's marketing is staffed by monkeys. But then, so is WotC's marketing (See: The Anti-MMO Ads for DnD)

ColdBrew
2008-04-17, 03:28 PM
So FATAL is Gorgeous George's cable access show?

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 03:35 PM
I legitimately think DnD is a pretty bad system, frankly. Have done so /before/ I found White Wolf. That's why I jumped ship so quick. The primary problems have to do with the way classes end up being handled (I prefer them being closer to ability sets to pick up rather then holding a particular IC meaning..) and Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards)


Probably not. White Wolf's marketing is staffed by monkeys. But then, so is WotC's marketing (See: The Anti-MMO Ads for DnD)

Granted, but at least it's just your problem with the system and you don't consider yourself to be less of a nerd for playing WW instead of D&D. As for being awesome without being a mage, see epic skills. Really, the abilities of any class after level 5 are supposedly physically impossible. Spellcasting is just the easiest thing to meta-game.

And I don't mmo because I prefer live D&D (says the guy who's playing two different online PbP games...), though I can see the lameness of advertising that way. Any smear ads are kind of lame, really.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 03:40 PM
White Wolf products seem to be a lot more fun to use when NOT used in LARP. Classless/leveless systems though, are by far the best there are will be as far as creativity is concerned. Such systems are not exactly good for one shots though.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-17, 03:55 PM
I legitimately think DnD is a pretty bad system, frankly. Have done so /before/ I found White Wolf. That's why I jumped ship so quick. The primary problems have to do with the way classes end up being handled (I prefer them being closer to ability sets to pick up rather then holding a particular IC meaning..) and Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards)In defense of D&D, at least as of 3e, only a few of the classes have specific IC meaning rather than being ability sets. The Wizard thing is a problem though, and point-based systems are by a wide margin more versatile (and in the case of M&M at least, more fun).

OWoD wasn't so much a bad system as it was poorly defined (especially across different product lines). NWoD looks a bit better, but it seems they took out most of the setting fluff I like. Scion (and I therefore assume Exalted) are just proof to me of why WoD-style systems shouldn't be used for combat-centric games. Tactically, it's quite dull, and there's only so many ways you can describe "I stab it" before you get bored. At least, that's the case for me.

WW's marketing staff, of course, deserves to be lined up and punched in the mouth.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-17, 04:03 PM
WW's marketing staff, of course, deserves to be lined up and punched in the mouth.

I think we have the basis for a one shot!

The Faceless
2008-04-17, 04:17 PM
Okay, can get an analysis of Quantum Leap? It is like Futurama, but it was a little smart with all the science stuff like how he travels through time, but only in his own lifetime (until they broke that rule that one time).

Trinity? Smart semi believable science, rules are followed with rare exceptions, sci-fi setting, and they're both something of a cult classic. and they're both awesome.

Faithdreamer
2008-04-17, 04:20 PM
You're all acting like saucy little brats. If you weren't twisting their words so much maybe it wouldn't seem so vicious. All it's really asking is... swap systems?

I never noticed anything like:

D&D Gamerz are stupid!
Elite pricks thenk they R bettarxSZ!

And when have you responsible mature players ever wanted to line someone up and punch them in the mouth?

Let it go and stop stoking the fire.

The TV comparisons are beyond me but I thought they were a bit humorous. What about all the systems you see in the store but no one players?

Things like Field of Glory..?

Thinker
2008-04-17, 04:26 PM
The TV comparisons are beyond me but I thought they were a bit humorous. What about all the systems you see in the store but no one players?

Things like Field of Glory..?

I was trying to keep only with tv shows I've seen and games I've played. By all means, please write up something on Field of Glory.

Bleen
2008-04-17, 04:27 PM
How about we just say most well-known RPG systems have terrible marketing staff, but DnD gets more of a (IMHO, undeserved) free pass from most people because it's old, well-known, and trusted and leave it at that?

Tengu
2008-04-17, 05:42 PM
Yeah, let's get back to the hilarious comparing RPG systems to TV shows instead of bashing WW, because otherwise sooner or later someone will post that Exalted is a horrible system, his opinion based only on that horribly stupid promotional campaign, and I'll laugh my lungs out.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-17, 05:47 PM
And when have you responsible mature players ever wanted to line someone up and punch them in the mouth?Just to clarify, I feel this way not because I am personally offended, but because deeply incompetent people like the people responsible for that promotion annoy me on a professional level.

However, your general point is taken, and I will refrain from comparing RPG systems to each other in this thread.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-17, 07:19 PM
Hey, I like GURPS, and my group still plays it. I also like White Wolf, but thought that that one ad was a bad move.


I wouldn't say D&D 3e is like Seinfeld, since I don't want to beat the hell out of every 3rd edition PC for being a jackass (except Kramer). Nor was 3e/3.5e a particularly long runner as far as RPGs go.

Frasier, maybe? Spun off of a wildly popular base, evolved into a distinct style that still kept some unnecessary holdovers. And again, had the network name going for it.

That would make 2e Cheers?

Oslecamo
2008-04-17, 07:58 PM
I would say that if you get to compare TV shows to RPGs then you have too much free time in hands.

And clearly so do I by posting here...

In defense of D&D, I must say it has by far the best marketing of the whole RPB market. Wotc and gleemax don't sleep on duty. They know how to talck nice, they give lots of suport(cough srd cough daily articles cough world wide contest scough great boards community).

Also, how many comic strips you see how there that are based in gurps or exalted or mutant and masterminds? Or animes? Or games?

Whatever makes D&D popular, well, it surely worcks damn well.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-17, 08:00 PM
Boy, we sure do need a comparison to music after this one. I can picture it in my head, D&D as Thriller the album (like ToB, XPH, and the PHBII, Billie Jean, Beat It and Thriller are impressive, and the rest is meh. Heck, it's even the biggest seller in the market!), GURPS as Pronounced leh-nerd skin-nerd, and WW products as prog albums. Now, what could M&M and the others compare to?

PS: Suddenly, I feel very scared. I have this paralyzing suspicion that "It's gonna thrill you tonight" is gonna be a slogan for 4e.

Shades of Gray
2008-04-17, 08:04 PM
Hey, I like GURPS, and my group still plays it. I also like White Wolf, but thought that that one ad was a bad move.


What was this "one ad" everyone is talking about?

Kyeudo
2008-04-17, 08:11 PM
The "Graduate your game" add. Basicly, White Wolf has called D&D an inferior brand of dice rolling and has offered to let people exchange a copy of the 3.5 PHB for Exalted 2nd Ed.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-17, 08:15 PM
I just checked out the Exalted Quickstart rules, and I'd have to say that it sounds more like an Anime. :smalltongue:

Rutee
2008-04-17, 08:20 PM
Exalted is epic. It's only 'anime' because people confuse epic, fantastic melee with being invented by anime. Well that and Grand Daiklaves.

I'd say.. You know, I like Trinity as Quantum Leap. Awesome pseudo science that can last to the Fridge. Would Weapons of the Gods be some crazy wuxia TV Series that nobody else knows about?

Tengu
2008-04-17, 08:22 PM
Exalted can, but doesn't have to have an anime feel to it. The game I'm in does, though, and I love it!

I love daiklaves, too. My character is wielding a sword that's almost as long as she's tall. In one hand.

Ascension
2008-04-17, 08:24 PM
GURPS as Pronounced leh-nerd skin-nerd,

What the heck does GURPS have to do with Lynyrd Skynyrd? If it was anywhere near as awesome as Freebird or Sweet Home Alabama everybody in the south would be playing it.

FREEEEEEEEEBIIIIIIIIIIIRD!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mioGewkWVdo)

mikeejimbo
2008-04-17, 08:28 PM
Exalted is epic. It's only 'anime' because people confuse epic, fantastic melee with being invented by anime. Well that and Grand Daiklaves.

Nah, I think it was invented by Homer.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-17, 08:34 PM
What the heck does GURPS have to do with Lynyrd Skynyrd? If it was anywhere near as awesome as Freebird or Sweet Home Alabama everybody in the south would be playing it.

FREEEEEEEEEBIIIIIIIIIIIRD!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mioGewkWVdo)

You just said it yourself. Some aspects of GURPS are Freebird and Sweet home Alabama (I can attest to that, one of my characters was a psionic guy who caused grossly strong effects by playing songs because it channeled his power), since they just thrash everything else (The obvious one is the fluff books, of course), yet the game is woefully underplayed.

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 08:36 PM
Exalted is anime like Dagorhir is lord of the rings. It can easily go in that direction, and has a tendency to, but, like any rpg, can go in whatever genre direction its players want to.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-17, 08:57 PM
Exalted is epic. It's only 'anime' because people confuse epic, fantastic melee with being invented by anime. Well that and Grand Daiklaves.

I was under the impression it is actually pretty anime inspired.

Which I would have no problem with.

Rutee
2008-04-17, 09:11 PM
Yeah, but the list of CLassics used as reference, by itself, is as long as anime + manga used as reference (Though if you'd like to count games too, then fair enough).

What's Iron Kingdoms? Does all DnD count as Seinfeld or whatever, or do the settings come as specific TV Shows?

(Also, I like I Love Lucy.)

EvilElitest
2008-04-17, 09:16 PM
Yeah, let's get back to the hilarious comparing RPG systems to TV shows instead of bashing WW, because otherwise sooner or later someone will post that Exalted is a horrible system, his opinion based only on that horribly stupid promotional campaign, and I'll laugh my lungs out.

It is a horrible system, because they think they are more mature than D&D, and um, they have books that are too big, and um, its unrealistic

I hope i gave you the semblence of a laugh
from
EE

mikeejimbo
2008-04-17, 09:19 PM
Yeah, but the list of CLassics used as reference, by itself, is as long as anime + manga used as reference (Though if you'd like to count games too, then fair enough).

What's Iron Kingdoms? Does all DnD count as Seinfeld or whatever, or do the settings come as specific TV Shows?

(Also, I like I Love Lucy.)

Yeah, like I said, Homer invented it. Except, I think Exalted specifically tried to use less Western inspiration and more Eastern, which might confuse people into associating it with Anime, I suppose?

And I like I Love Lucy too! But I also like GURPS. Can't say anything about Arrested Development, I haven't seen it.

Maerok
2008-04-17, 09:34 PM
There are many posts here and elsewhere that talk about what they want from an RPG. What people seem to misunderstand is that, like a television show, not every RPG is for every person. Even when a game changes editions it can become a whole different game and experience. This leads to the following: Get your TV out of my DnD!

Dungeons and Dragons: The standard by which all RPGs are measured. It has the longest history and the largest fan-base. With many editions coming out, it is constantly in a state of change.

DnD 4e is the Simpsons of RPGs. They aim at a large audience with little-to-no regard for a "core" group of players. People enjoy it because they don't have to think very hard about it. This is not a bad thing, itís a different thing.
DnD 3e would be the Seinfeld: it was also largely about a generalist approach and like Seinfeld, no matter what came out in a splat book you could be assured that nothing had really happened, wizards were always king. Both had a good, long run and both were not for everyone.
DnD 2e was easily Friends. It was a fun show that lots of people enjoyed, but there were better shows coming out at the same time. Its only saving grace was that it was on NBC (or had the DnD name) to draw new fans. There were plenty of good parts, but there was no reason it should triumph over its contemporaries.
DnD 1e is I Love Lucy. Nobody likes it or watches it, but everyone remembers it as being good. Late night reruns can still be found if you look hard enough, but they're mostly homage to a long gone time.

Mutants & Masterminds/True 20: These systems are very fun to play, but have a small fan-base. This makes them fit in with Futurama. Wildly popular, but often overshadowed by the likes of DnD because the basic system was created by the same people. They have some good ideas, but many people won't get to see them because they're too busy watching other things.
White Wolf: These elitists want everyone to know they think they're better than everyone. They practically say so in their advertising and they take themselves way too seriously, much like ER. They have "important emergencies" pop up all the time and deal with each one as though its the end of the world, much like how every main character in Exalted could cause the end of the world. The system is fun, but the producers leave a bit to be desired.
GURPS: This system should have been one of the greats, but sadly fell out of favor. A show that won all kinds of awards was very similar: Arrested Development. AD had the misfortune of being too complex for Joe Average, much like GURPS. It turns out the fans just wanted Fox to entertain, not make them think.

There are plenty of other systems out there to pick on and there is not necessarily anything wrong with any of them, or these for that matter. It seems like people get uppity about system-change because they don't want to just keep on watching reruns of their favorite shows, they want new stuff. They can make new episodes on their own by splicing together older ones or coming up with plots that make sense to themselves, but the fact is the producers long ago ran out of material and don't want to destroy storyline or rehash the same one. Like all tv shows, no system is inherently wrong, just wrong for certain people.

F.A.T.A.L. = Those fuzzy channels? :smallwink:

EvilElitest
2008-04-17, 09:37 PM
Yeah, like I said, Homer invented it. Except, I think Exalted specifically tried to use less Western inspiration and more Eastern, which might confuse people into associating it with Anime, I suppose?

And I like I Love Lucy too! But I also like GURPS. Can't say anything about Arrested Development, I haven't seen it.

I think it is more the feel of it. Super people who can do absurd thing in a very flashy sort of anime style. It isn't totally anime, but has the same feel or style
from
EE

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-17, 09:39 PM
FATAL was already compared to Gorgeous George's Cable Access show. My understanding of that was, it's horrible, but you can't help but laugh at it.

Rutee
2008-04-17, 09:41 PM
There is no FATAL. Stop talking about it :smallannoyed:


Yeah, like I said, Homer invented it. Except, I think Exalted specifically tried to use less Western inspiration and more Eastern, which might confuse people into associating it with Anime, I suppose?

And I like I Love Lucy too! But I also like GURPS. Can't say anything about Arrested Development, I haven't seen it.
Insofar as the Realm is Japan + China, sure. The Scavenger Lands are steampunk, the West is pirate-land, the East is a mix of medieval areas (Especially Lookshy), as well as woodland noble 'savages'. The South is where you get your persian/arabian-a-likes, and the North defies hats completely. But it's cold anyway :smallyuk: (In seriousness, no one hat fits any area properly, but that's the basics)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-17, 09:42 PM
EE: I'd drop it before this thread gets tag-team-derailed by the SOS-dan and Exalted fans, if I were you.

That would make 2e Cheers?Fits just as well as Friends, but is significantly funnier. So sure.

EvilElitest
2008-04-17, 09:44 PM
EE: I'd drop it before this thread gets tag-team-derailed by the SOS-dan and Exalted fans, if I were you.
Fits just as well as Friends, but is significantly funnier. So sure.

I didn't say it was bad through.
from
EE

Rutee
2008-04-17, 09:44 PM
Isn't Cheers better then Seinfeld though? >.>

Also: Are Alternate DnD settings the same as DnD3e? What about Spelljammer, which was discontinued in 2e?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-17, 09:47 PM
Well yes, but that was in response to my proposition that 3e = Frasier.

EE: That's not the point. The point is that its an oversimplification and a misapplication of terminology and oh crap here I go again with this argument. This is (the latest reason) why I've been avoiding this board...

Spelljammer is Red Dwarf. Cheesy sci fi with few redeeming qualities, but had some great moments. Or rather, it's what Red Dwarf would be if they'd ever had the sense to cancel the smegging thing.

EvilElitest
2008-04-17, 09:48 PM
Well yes, but that was in response to my proposition that 3e = Frasier.

EE: That's not the point. The point is that its an oversimplification and a misapplication of terminology and oh crap here I go again with this argument. This is (the latest reason) why I've been avoiding this board...

I shouldn't ask what is wrong with my ideal
from
EE

Maerok
2008-04-17, 09:48 PM
There is no FATAL. Stop talking about it :smallannoyed:

But we must remember such atrocities so history never repeats itself!!!

mikeejimbo
2008-04-17, 09:50 PM
Again though, that's at least somewhat up to individual interpretation. But it would fit the "spinoff" if 2e were Cheers and 3e were Fraiser. That's all I was thinking.

EvilElitest
2008-04-17, 09:50 PM
But we must remember such atrocities so history never repeats itself!!!

I is like the Genocides, we need to remember

Rutee, you played F.A.T.A.L.?
from
EE

Rutee
2008-04-17, 09:54 PM
Spelljammer is Red Dwarf. Cheesy sci fi with few redeeming qualities, but had some great moments. Or rather, it's what Red Dwarf would be if they'd ever had the sense to cancel the smegging thing.

...But Jammer is awesome ;.;

What about Eberron and FR? I think FR is inuyasha or Friends or some other abominably bad show that has lived long past it's time, personally :smallwink:
Eberron, however, I have nfc.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-17, 09:54 PM
The correct answer you should give to that Rutee is no. (Even if you have)

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-17, 09:58 PM
I shouldn't ask what is wrong with my ideal
from
EENo, because it's off the topic. However, since my personal preferences run toward not opening new topics, I'll explain my position here:

I'll spell out why I disagree with you. It's not even that I disagree with you. I just get annoyed when people oversimplify things as "anime" just because they happen to bear a passing resemblance to one or two Japanese kids' action cartoons. It's a blatant misrepresentation of both the thing you're describing and the massive, varied, and ubiquitous Japanese animation industry.

And yes, this is a touchy subject for me because other people use it as a derogatory term, but it's gotten to the point where it bugs me generally.

Is that sufficient, or are we going to drag this out into a full-fledged internet debate like the last time I didn't keep my stupid mouth shut?

...But Jammer is awesome ;.;

What about Eberron and FR? I think FR is inuyasha or Friends or some other abominably bad show that has lived long past it's time, personally :smallwink:
Eberron, however, I have nfc.Eberron...lets see. Eberron is a melange of everything its creator thought was cool, forged into a surprisingly coherent world by a team of writers very self-aware of their tropes and the faults of their medium. Maybe Firefly, but not canceled and with a bigger (but no less fanatic) fanbase?

Pirate_King
2008-04-17, 10:56 PM
Is that sufficient, or are we going to drag this out into a full-fledged internet debate like the last time I didn't keep my stupid mouth shut?


probably the second one.

Thinker
2008-04-17, 11:47 PM
Isn't Cheers better then Seinfeld though? >.>

Also: Are Alternate DnD settings the same as DnD3e? What about Spelljammer, which was discontinued in 2e?

Sure, different settings can be different shows. I fully support Spelljammer being Red Dwarf :smalltongue:

Eberron can be Doctor Who. Made of awesome :smallcool:

Rutee
2008-04-17, 11:51 PM
Sure, different settings can be different shows. I fully support Spelljammer being Red Dwarf :smalltongue:

So do I, in retrospect.

"Ace Rimmer in Red Dwarf is usually introduced in a Big Damn Heroes scene. In his first appearance, he flies in, saves the crew, then performs emergency surgery on the Cat. The second time, he literally sweeps in, rescues a Distressed Damsel from a Nazi firing squad, surfs from a plane on an alligator, takes a bullet to the holodrive and still manages to have sex before seeking aid -- what a guy"

DrowVampyre
2008-04-18, 03:52 AM
What would that make Alternity? Dark Matter campaign setting bleeds X-Files, but as far as out-of-world statistics X-Files was waaaaayyy too successful to be Alternity. >_> <_<

And what about Call of Cthulu?

And...Gatecrasher. I dunno if anyone else has even -heard- of Gatecrasher, but...maybe Robot Chicken? You think Eberron is "a melange of everything its creator thought was cool," you have to see Gatecrasher. It has Gold Ball From Hell as a monster! And angels and demons and cyborgs and space-surfing dragonpeople and...and...! (Ok, I've never actually played it, but I have the book...and it's hilarious!)

Torchlyte
2008-04-18, 05:03 AM
I would argue that if 3.5 is Star Trek, 4th is Star Wars.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-18, 08:00 AM
CoC is the Twilight Zone.

Morty
2008-04-18, 08:57 AM
Eberron is... I can't think of TV example, but it's something half of the audience thinks is super cool and the other half blinks in disbelief.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-18, 09:04 AM
Call of Cthulhu, if we're branching out into anime, is Neon Genesis Evangelion. No matter what you do, no matter how awesome you get when the chips are down, you will go insane and die. No exceptions. Sticking to American TV, I'd call it more Outer Limits than Twilight Zone, because OL tends to have more depressing and deadly endings overall. It's also better known for its contributions to pop culture ("Do not adjust your television set...") than it is in and of itself, much like the Cthulhu Mythos as a whole.

CthulhuTech, coincidentally, is not a TV show but a video game: Super Robot Wars. It's just so blatant in its homages that it can't really be anything else.

I would argue that if 3.5 is Star Trek, 4th is Star Wars.Care to explain this relation? I don't know whether I agree or not, because I don't really see the connection.

Talya
2008-04-18, 09:31 AM
Classless/leveless systems though, are by far the best there are will be as far as creativity is concerned.

I used to agree with this. I was a long-time holdout of West End's d6 Star Wars, and still think it's a very simple, easy to use system.

However, it's not nearly as "fun" as Saga. You can't fit "character builds" together looking for synergies...building a character is its own fun...like a puzzle, only better. It's no fun building d6 character sheets, they're too straightforward. It's just picking your skills. It's really neat to plan out a D&D 3.5 character or a saga character with feats and PrCs and such. d6 feels like the mechanics are just a very loose framework for adjudicating storytelling. With d20/Saga, building a character is a subgame in itself. I think I like that better.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-18, 09:36 AM
Sticking to American TV, I'd call it more Outer Limits than Twilight Zone, because OL tends to have more depressing and deadly endings overall. It's also better known for its contributions to pop culture ("Do not adjust your television set...") than it is in and of itself, much like the Cthulhu Mythos as a whole.

Outer Limits, of course! I was trying to think of that other show, you know, the one that was kind of like Twilight Zone but I forget the name of it. That's what it was!

Vortling
2008-04-18, 09:59 AM
Savage Worlds is Firefly a few years ago. Few people have heard of it, but those that have love it immensely.

ColdBrew
2008-04-18, 04:27 PM
the North defies hats completely. But it's cold anyway :smallyuk:
North is totally Vikings, come on.

Rutee
2008-04-18, 04:41 PM
However, it's not nearly as "fun" as Saga. You can't fit "character builds" together looking for synergies...building a character is its own fun...like a puzzle, only better. It's no fun building d6 character sheets, they're too straightforward. It's just picking your skills. It's really neat to plan out a D&D 3.5 character or a saga character with feats and PrCs and such. d6 feels like the mechanics are just a very loose framework for adjudicating storytelling. With d20/Saga, building a character is a subgame in itself. I think I like that better.

I'm going to say that this is hte problem I have with classed systems. There's mechanical enjoyment to be had in working hte class system, but at the end of the day it's so much easier to get your concept out the door, and play it, in a classless system. They're better for Console and Computer RPGs thent hey are for roleplaying games, since the mechanical fun of the build doesn't exactly carry over to the table.


North is totally Vikings, come on.
That's just Bull of the North.

Torchlyte
2008-04-18, 05:38 PM
Care to explain this relation? I don't know whether I agree or not, because I don't really see the connection.

I'm not a particular fan of either Star Wars or Star Trek, but I'll do my best to explain my perceptions:

Star Trek was primarily a TV show, while Star Wars was a trilogy of movies (and books, I guess). This led to differences in how each was portrayed, especially with regards to plot and action.

One of the design goals of 4th edition was a more 'cinematic' feel.

Star Trek had a lot of content for fans to enjoy, whereas the movie format meant that Star Wars had less, but more effort was put into making that content interesting. Eventually, Star Wars grew to have a lot of content as well. As an outside observer, I can't tell which actually has more.

3.x has a lot of published material, but 4th edition cuts it all out and emphasizes on streamlining and improving what's there. Whether their decisions are an improvement or not is subject to debate, but that is clearly the design intent. For example, WotC chose to take out Gnomes and Half-Orcs because they weren't popular, and put in Dragonborn (cool factor) and Tieflings (which were popular). Eventually, we can expect 4th edition to have similar levels of content when compared to 3.x.

One thing I'm unsure about is popular appeal. It appears to me that Star Wars had (and has) a much larger audience because of the way it was created. This doesn't necessarily mean that Star Wars sacrificed quality, it just used more interesting content. Once again, I don't know how popular Star Trek was back in the day. It was before my time.

It is often argued (in this thread, for example) that 4th edition is sacrificing its quality for mass appeal. That seems like a highly unfair judgment to make, because 4th edition could be better than 3rd edition in general and still have more mass appeal.

Tengu
2008-04-18, 06:01 PM
the East is a mix of medieval areas (Especially Lookshy)

Isn't Lookshy that super-militaristic place full of steampunk technology and badass fantasy mecha?



Eberron...lets see. Eberron is a melange of everything its creator thought was cool, forged into a surprisingly coherent world by a team of writers very self-aware of their tropes and the faults of their medium. Maybe Firefly, but not canceled and with a bigger (but no less fanatic) fanbase?

I think that Fading Suns would be Firefly - both have a devoted, but small fanbase, both take place in space but are full of potential for all kinds of adventure.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-18, 06:40 PM
That is indeed what Lookshy is, Tengu. Lookshy is a Japanese, steampunk version of Sparta. At least of CoTD: The Scavenger Lands is to be believed. In short it is completely awesome as it is the only place in Creation you are likely to see soldiers hunkering down with guns. Also it is a part of the Scavenger Lands, in many ways the head of them only really contesting with Great Forks and Nexus for that title.

As for the North it is indeed hard to define well. The Icewalker's seem to be a bunch of samis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people) led by a viking. Kunlun seems like a twisted version of Tibet. Halta seems kinda like a low-tech, steampunk version of Medieval Europa except set on Greenland...or to put it more simply, really quite strange. About the only thing i can say fully certainly is that the North is probably the region most similar to Europe. Which still doesn't mean a whole lot as one of the primary goals of White Wolf when they designed Exalted was to avoid making it anything like medieval Europe.

And sorry about the extreme offtopicness, just thought i had something to add here. Also i don't watch enough tv to have anything meaningful to add.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-18, 06:54 PM
Hey I got one!

Serenity RPG = Firefly, its an amazing system that is new but borrows from other systems, has a dedicated albeit small fan-base despite the amount of resources (only 2 books and 1 adventure).

So, what would The World of Synnibarr be?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-18, 07:10 PM
An absolutely OTT anime or cartoon, because I can't for the life of me think of a live show that would be so inconnexed and OTT chapter to chapter.

So, what about SenZar, then?

Talya
2008-04-18, 10:06 PM
I'm going to say that this is hte problem I have with classed systems. There's mechanical enjoyment to be had in working hte class system, but at the end of the day it's so much easier to get your concept out the door, and play it, in a classless system. They're better for Console and Computer RPGs thent hey are for roleplaying games, since the mechanical fun of the build doesn't exactly carry over to the table.

Meh, if the game rules don't inspire me to come up with dozens of mechanical character concepts, and actually plan out at least a few of them in detail, it isn't going to hold my interest when I'm playing it. I can see why you find it so easy to divorce "crunch" from "fluff." To me they need to be one and the same. Concepts and builds produce the ideas for the fluff, too, while independant ideas for fluff prompt searches for crunch that enhance them. They are inseparable and intermingled. A lack of interesting enough crunch results in a lack of interest in making characters, which results in a lack of interest in playing.

Rutee
2008-04-18, 10:27 PM
Meh, if the game rules don't inspire me to come up with dozens of mechanical character concepts, and actually plan out at least a few of them in detail, it isn't going to hold my interest when I'm playing it. I can see why you find it so easy to divorce "crunch" from "fluff." To me they need to be one and the same. Concepts and builds produce the ideas for the fluff, too, while independant ideas for fluff prompt searches for crunch that enhance them. They are inseparable and intermingled. A lack of interesting enough crunch results in a lack of interest in making characters, which results in a lack of interest in playing.

This is why I have to wonder how much experience you have in Effects-based systems. They're very, very easy to seperate. Period, full stop. You're demonstrably wrong by the existence of Effects-based systems. I'll grant that DnD crunch can be interesting, of course, but if your goal has relatively little to do with the game you play, I can't find it as anything but a subpar system as a whole. It doesn't help that I don't see it as that hot as a strict mechanical construct either though. And it doesn't provide a middle ground between no fluff/crunch connection, and strict mechanical construct (Which is honestly all it excels as) either, since there's fairly /little/ fluff/crunch seperation as the system default (And more importantly, in how the system is constructed.) That last bit would require explanation, but we're getting far enough off topic as is, I suspect.

Khosan
2008-04-18, 10:53 PM
Anyone remember that show Fastlane that was on...Fox, I think? Show about "undercover" cops, kinda racist/sexist and canceled after about a season?

That's FATAL.

And I really want to draw a comparison between American Gladiator and something else, but my mind's pulling a blank.

Drascin
2008-04-19, 04:27 AM
Is that sufficient, or are we going to drag this out into a full-fledged internet debate like the last time I didn't keep my stupid mouth shut?
Eberron...lets see. Eberron is a melange of everything its creator thought was cool, forged into a surprisingly coherent world by a team of writers very self-aware of their tropes and the faults of their medium. Maybe Firefly, but not canceled and with a bigger (but no less fanatic) fanbase?

Being I like Firefly and love Eberron, I support this comparison :smallbiggrin:. Seriously, there are few worlds in D&D where you can get the sheer amount of awesome that can be got in Eberron. A couple weeks ago, my group directed a squad of Lyrandar war air-galleons against what amounted basicaly to a demigod (it was not actually a demigod, because gods in Eberron might not be, but the comparison is pretty valid even if its type was aberration. Yay Daelkyr experiments), complete with them launching themselves from the boat from hundreds of feet in the air and fighting in midair before crashing into the sea. And a few weeks before that they were reenacting Dune with purple worms in the desert of Menechtarun. And before that... seriously, I could go on. This is my first true campaign in Eberron (I had only done one-shots in it before this), and it's been just chock-full of Crowning Moments of Awesome. Hell, one of the imp NPCs the players befriended was deemed awesome enough to sport a cape and Kamina glasses at all times (the artificer made them specifically for him, complete with a couple wands that allow him to act as a turret and backup by riding on the Warblade's shoulders) right after he blasted his way out of a T.Rex's gizzard with a wand of lightning bolt, so I think they're getting the "cool" vibe too :smallwink:.