Only one exception?

[Callista]

So from this strip we gather that Miko is the only female paladin in the Sapphire Guard who's ever fallen (or at least, ever fallen and failed to atone). That would suggest a similar rate for males--one or two, in the whole history of the Guard.

Such a low rate of failure for the Sapphire Guard tells us something: Either their code is more lax than others, or they are better at following it, or else there are fewer poorly-played paladins in Oots-world than in most D&D tabletop games... because the rate of falling I've seen for paladins is more like one in three, and that's not counting the guys who want blackguards in the first place!

[TehJhu]

Or maybe it just means only one paladin in the history of the SG ever murdered the leader of the city a day before it was attacked by a massive army of Hobgoblins and then brokef free of prison just in time to save an epic lich from certain destruction and smash one of the gates keeping a creature capable of unmaking reality in minutes at bay.

Just a thought.

[Duke of URL]

I think you're misinterpreting what he was saying. The "secret club" was the Sapphire Guard, but the "one exception" to it being a fun club was getting their city overrun by an army of hobgoblins.

[Callista]

The simplest way to read it is that MitD is referring to having girls in the club, not to having it in the first place.

[isocum]

well as far as i know sapphire guard is a fairly new organization, so it's probable that miko was first one to fall.

[†Seer†]

The simplest way to read it is that MitD is referring to having girls in the club, not to having it in the first place.

*nods* I read it as the MitD was shocked about a girl in the club.
However, I don't think it's just that Miko fell. I think it was the fact that no one liked her/she was crazy/hardheaded and caused so much...pain/drama/destruction/enjoyment by Belkar?

[FujinAkari]

then broke free of prison just in time to save an epic lich from certain destruction and smash one of the gates keeping a creature capable of unmaking reality in minutes at bay.

Just a thought.

Just like to note that if Miko hadn't broken free of prison, there is a very good chance that Xykon would have taken the gate, not "certain destruction."

While, yes, Redcloak would have been killed, Soon himself admits that he can't destroy Xykon's phylactery. With the entire castle being assailed by an entire Legion of hobgoblins, what are the chances of a human surviving long enough to finish Xykon off?

[archon_huskie]

Xykon was concerned enough to have tried fleeing the gate room. And Redcloak and Xykon seemed to believe they were done for just before Miko interupted Soon. That was without knowing Miko had broken free.

Had Miko been delayed just a few rounds, Redcloak and Xykon would have been down and Soon could have ordered Miko to smash the phylactery. So I would say the chances were pretty good if a human coming just because there was one there. Had Miko stayed in the cell different story.

MitD could have been refering to girls in the club, but O-chul could have been refering to the gate's destruction or vice versa. It ambiguity is possible in conversations.

[Ninjamuffin]

Just like to note that if Miko hadn't broken free of prison, there is a very good chance that Xykon would have taken the gate, not "certain destruction."

While, yes, Redcloak would have been killed, Soon himself admits that he can't destroy Xykon's phylactery. With the entire castle being assailed by an entire Legion of hobgoblins, what are the chances of a human surviving long enough to finish Xykon off?

I'm pretty sure Soon and his ghost-martyrs could have held the throne room pretty well indefinitely, barring large masses of hobbo clerics who think like Redcloak. Eventually, the hobbos would give up and run away, what with thier leader and most powerful ally gone.
Though, I'm not sure how well hobgoblin morale holds up against seeing a host of ghostly apparitions beat down the most powerful creature you've ever seen with minimal effort.

[FujinAkari]

I'm pretty sure Soon and his ghost-martyrs could have held the throne room pretty well indefinitely, barring large masses of hobbo clerics who think like Redcloak. Eventually, the hobbos would give up and run away, what with thier leader and most powerful ally gone.
Though, I'm not sure how well hobgoblin morale holds up against seeing a host of ghostly apparitions beat down the most powerful creature you've ever seen with minimal effort.

Soon's ghost matyrs were destroyed, meaning it was JUST Soon.

Don't get me wrong, Soon is a badass, but he can only attack some many times per round, not enough to seriously disrupt a rescue attempt. Keep in mind how willing the Hobgoblins are to die for their supreme leader.

Granted, this assumes that Soon can't abandon the Gate to go after them, but that seems a fairly safe assumption.


Xykon was concerned enough to have tried fleeing the gate room. And Redcloak and Xykon seemed to believe they were done for just before Miko interupted Soon. That was without knowing Miko had broken free.

Xykon had no idea that the Keep had already been overrun. Redcloak is mortal, death still has meaning for him. The fact that he would -probably- be brought back seemed little comfort.


Had Miko been delayed just a few rounds, Redcloak and Xykon would have been down and Soon could have ordered Miko to smash the phylactery. So I would say the chances were pretty good if a human coming just because there was one there. Had Miko stayed in the cell different story.

You will notice that the post I respond too was complaining that Miko had escaped from prison :P

No one is arguing that Miko could have handled the situation better, I was just noting that the end result was better than if she hadn't been involved at all, in all probability.

[Chronos]

Don't get me wrong, Soon is a badass, but he can only attack some many times per round, not enough to seriously disrupt a rescue attempt. Keep in mind how willing the Hobgoblins are to die for their supreme leader.So he stands in the doorway and cuts down the hobgoblins one at a time as they try to enter. He's easily goodass enough to pull that off. And if the Gate hadn't been destroyed, Hinjo or one of the Stickers would have made it up to the throne room eventually, and then Soon tells them to destroy the phylactery.

Granted, the city probably still ends up overrun by hobgoblins, but without Xykon or Redcloak, Hinjo's Junk would probably be able to stay long enough for the Order to not be split, and Hinjo would probably have been able to recruit allies to retake the city. And meanwhile, nobody is tampering with the fabric of reality.

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought it looked as though RC and Xykon were both pretty much at death's door just before Miko came in, and, while Xykon's Psylactery would still need to be smashed, he wold still have needed time to regenerate. RC's death would have reduced the chances of Xykon being able to regenerate his body before he was discovered.

[Silkenfist]

Uhm...how are the Hobbos supposed to know, how to rescue Xykon? Xykon will be already smashed to bits, as will be Redcloak. They would need to know that Redcloak's holy symbol is the phylactery and that is not really knowledge, Xykon is likely to spread.

Most likely scenario would be the Hobbos abandoning the throne room and just be happy about owning the city themselves.


Also, I agree with TehJuh. The exception doesn't refer to the falling. It refers to murdering the leader of the city at the eve of an invasion and ruining any organised defense in the process.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't forget, Ghosts can come back no matter how often they're destroyed. I don't know how Deathless work, but the Ghost-Martyrs are referred to in plural by Soon even after all except him are destroyed, so it seems like in this case there is a similar mechanic. I think an Epic-level caster with all sorts of fun abilities due to template should be able to hold out for a few days, long enough for his backup to re-gen.

[FujinAkari]

So he stands in the doorway and cuts down the hobgoblins one at a time as they try to enter. He's easily goodass enough to pull that off. And if the Gate hadn't been destroyed, Hinjo or one of the Stickers would have made it up to the throne room eventually, and then Soon tells them to destroy the phylactery.

Ok, Soon gets one AoE a turn. The Hobs simply run through him. He kills 2 of them before Redcloak is evacuated.


Uhm...how are the Hobbos supposed to know, how to rescue Xykon? Xykon will be already smashed to bits, as will be Redcloak. They would need to know that Redcloak's holy symbol is the phylactery and that is not really knowledge, Xykon is likely to spread.

True enough. However, any Hobgoblin cleric WOULD know that the Redcloak is the most powerful artifact that the Dark One ever created. There is pretty much a 0% chance that they won't try to get it back as its basically their version of the Holy Grail. In getting Redcloak's body out of there they -also- secure Xykon's phylactery.


RC's death would have reduced the chances of Xykon being able to regenerate his body before he was discovered.

Being discovered? There was a hobgoblin cleric watching the battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html). His death would have been discovered immediately.

[FujinAkari]

Don't forget, Ghosts can come back no matter how often they're destroyed. I don't know how Deathless work, but the Ghost-Martyrs are referred to in plural by Soon even after all except him are destroyed, so it seems like in this case there is a similar mechanic. I think an Epic-level caster with all sorts of fun abilities due to template should be able to hold out for a few days, long enough for his backup to re-gen.

While True, if the Hobgoblins do get Redcloak out (which seems likely, Soon won't have his backup for 1d4 days, more then enough time for the hobs to rescue Redcloak) then Redcloak can simply cast Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm) upon the throne room and the second match becomes pretty one-sided, since all the Paladins are melee types and will be unable to move.

[NikkTheTrick]

Ok, Soon gets one AoE a turn. The Hobs simply run through him. He kills 2 of them before Redcloak is evacuated.
Except that Soon is standing in the doorway, blocking it...

There is a good reason why Redcloak told lesser goblinoids to leave: they are hopeless against Soon.

Also, how effective would normal weapons bee against Soon?

[Deathwisher]

Except that Soon is standing in the doorway, blocking it...

There is a good reason why Redcloak told lesser goblinoids to leave: they are hopeless against Soon.

Also, how effective would normal weapons bee against Soon?

And a paladin at Soon's level would almost certainly have cleave and greater cleave. All he'd have to do is stand next to Recloacks body and he'd be killing hobgoblins by the dozens. Two or three rounds of that and there is such a mountain of corpses that the hobo's wouldn't be able to even get close to Redcloack.

[EvilJames]

There is also a chance he could have been able to convince one of the less devout hobbos to smash the phylactery as well, perhaps the lone survivor of an attempt to get Redcloak's body.

[FujinAkari]

Except that Soon is standing in the doorway, blocking it...

Soon is a ghost, he -can't- block it. They just walk through him.


Also, how effective would normal weapons bee against Soon?

Not very, but the Hobs aren't fighting Soon, they are running in, grabbing RC, and running back out. While sure, some will try and fight Soon, eventually they'll realize that won't work. With 4 Legions in the area, it is very unlikely that Soon will be able to hold them off for the 1d4 days it takes for the other ghosts to return (at which point he likely -could- hold the throneroom)


And a paladin at Soon's level would almost certainly have cleave and greater cleave. All he'd have to do is stand next to Recloacks body and he'd be killing hobgoblins by the dozens. Two or three rounds of that and there is such a mountain of corpses that the hobo's wouldn't be able to even get close to Redcloack.

This seems to be a case of wishful thinking. "My argument requires Soon to have Greater Cleave, therefore he does!"

Soon only has 8 feats... to assume he dropped 3 of them for a feat is a pretty baseless assumption, imo. Yes, its possible, but certainly not anywhere near a certainty, so you can't base a defense around him having it.


There is also a chance he could have been able to convince one of the less devout hobbos to smash the phylactery as well, perhaps the lone survivor of an attempt to get Redcloak's body.

Very unlikely, imo. Redcloak is practically a God to these guys. He led them to victory over Azure City. For Soon to convince them to desecrate his body AND offend their God is practically impossible.

[David Argall]

This has been discussed many times before.


Except that Soon is standing in the doorway, blocking it...


a-Soon is incorporeal and can move thru solid objects, and vice-versa. The hobgoblins can simply walk right thru him.
b-even if we make him more solid, Soon is just not big enough to block the doorway. We are talking about a very large room that is supposed to hold large numbers of people at times. That is not going to have just 1 small doorway in. Either it has several doors or the one door is big [quite possibly both]. Soon may well be able to make sure nobody enters without risking damage, but he can't block entrance.
c-And there are things like Tumble that allow one to get thru enemy occupied squares.

Soon is just going to make it expensive to get the body. He can't stop them.
And even if he could stop them from entering, it's no big deal to toss a rope with harpoon or loop and just drag the body out of the throne room. With or without his support troops, Soon can't do a thing about that.

However, as has been noted before, Soon presumably can cast Break Enchantment, which would free O'Chul, who could then break the phylactery. So we have something of a race to see who figures out the right tactic first. Since paladins prepare spells, Soon may not have BE prepared [His comment about waiting for a human to enter suggests he does not.] and so the hobs have a fair amount of time. But they also have a city to organize, and a disrupted chain of command. So they might not get to dealing with a throne room that seems like it will wait until too late.

[SPoD]

You're all missing the point. It doesn't matter what would have happened if Miko hadn't broken out of prison, at least not to O-Chul. What matters is that she was there, alive and undamaged, when Soon was about to finish Xykon and Redcloak. If she had just stopped and listened to Soon, none of these scenarios you're batting around would have mattered. Soon would have told Miko to smash the phylactery the round after he destroyed Xykon's body, and Miko and Soon together would have held the door easily (even more so if she found a way to unparalyze O-Chul). They could have burned Redcloak's body, too (you can't tell me any hobgoblin cleric in that army has Resurrection).

The point is, she had an opportunity to start to fix the mistakes of earlier by listening to her superior officer (even if he was a ghost) and made the same mistake again. Removing her from the scene doesn't save Azure City, but her making the right choice when she gets there MIGHT.

[Chronos]

He doesn't have to wait 1d4 days for other martyrs to return, either. At least some of the other paladins are probably high enough level (especially considering the Consecrate spell on the throne room) that they were only turned, not destroyed, and turning only lasts for 10 rounds. It'd take longer than that for the hobgoblins to even realize that they need to go rescue Redcloak.

[TehJhu]

You're all missing the point. It doesn't matter what would have happened if Miko hadn't broken out of prison, at least not to O-Chul. What matters is that she was there, alive and undamaged, when Soon was about to finish Xykon and Redcloak. If she had just stopped and listened to Soon, none of these scenarios you're batting around would have mattered. Soon would have told Miko to smash the phylactery the round after he destroyed Xykon's body, and Miko and Soon together would have held the door easily (even more so if she found a way to unparalyze O-Chul). They could have burned Redcloak's body, too (you can't tell me any hobgoblin cleric in that army has Resurrection).

The point is, she had an opportunity to start to fix the mistakes of earlier by listening to her superior officer (even if he was a ghost) and made the same mistake again. Removing her from the scene doesn't save Azure City, but her making the right choice when she gets there MIGHT.

Exactly...

[FujinAkari]

However, as has been noted before, Soon presumably can cast Break Enchantment, which would free O'Chul, who could then break the phylactery.

The fact that Soon says that he can't break the phylactery, but that Soon says he can instruct "the first Human who enters the room." about destroying it is a tacit admission that he -can't- free O-chul, at least not at the moment.


You're all missing the point. It doesn't matter what would have happened if Miko hadn't broken out of prison, at least not to O-Chul. What matters is that she was there, alive and undamaged, when Soon was about to finish Xykon and Redcloak. If she had just stopped and listened to Soon, none of these scenarios you're batting around would have mattered. Soon would have told Miko to smash the phylactery the round after he destroyed Xykon's body, and Miko and Soon together would have held the door easily (even more so if she found a way to unparalyze O-Chul). They could have burned Redcloak's body, too (you can't tell me any hobgoblin cleric in that army has Resurrection).

The point is, she had an opportunity to start to fix the mistakes of earlier by listening to her superior officer (even if he was a ghost) and made the same mistake again. Removing her from the scene doesn't save Azure City, but her making the right choice when she gets there MIGHT.

I don't think anyone missed that point, but thats boring.

NO ONE is arguing about that, it'd be like arguing that Roy's name isn't Ray... its just... blindingly obvious.

We tend not to argue about things that are obvious :P

[TehJhu]

The fact that Soon says that he can't break the phylactery, but that Soon says he can instruct "the first Human who enters the room." about destroying it is a tacit admission that he -can't- free O-chul, at least not at the moment.



I don't think anyone missed that point, but thats boring.

NO ONE is arguing about that, it'd be like arguing that Roy's name isn't Ray... its just... blindingly obvious.

We tend not to argue about things that are obvious :P

If you're going to argue just to argue, then argue about what the thread is about?

[FujinAkari]

If you're going to argue just to argue, then argue about what the thread is about?

I am :P

the question posed by the OP has long since been answered... although if you insist...

It is pretty clear from O-chul's wording that his one exception doesn't apply merely to a Paladin Falling (having someone join your club and leave, which is effectively the same thing, isn't seen as a failure of the club) but instead that she killed the Club President, which has only happened once.

[NENAD]

Alternatively, he could be referring to the destruction of the club itself.

Yes, I did bring that debate up again, and yes, I did it just because I want to see people argue back and forth about the insoluble for days.

[Ridureyu]

Guys... do any of you remember that Xykon and Redcloak were about one or two turns from being annihilated? They even started giving their "last words" before Miko came in.

Seriously, I find it really hard to argue that Soon was getting his butt kicked, and Xykon was about to take the gate.

[FujinAkari]

Seriously, I find it really hard to argue that Soon was getting his butt kicked, and Xykon was about to take the gate.

I find it really hard to believe you think anyone is arguing about that.

Not a single person has said Soon was about to lose, merely that Soon wasn't in a position to win. When Xykon can regenerate, round 2 will not go as well since he and RC will actually -know- what they're up against.