PDA

View Full Version : wizard levels worth it?



gnomas
2008-04-17, 08:02 PM
If I were making a druid, would adding wizard levels be in any way a good idea? It would actually make sense from a roleplaying perspective, but since the build is already 3/4 druid and druid Prc(s) I'm wondering if taking the wiz levels would be worth the duel caster progression...

On a more general topic, can a character that advances more than once type of casting ever be as good as one advancing only one? Or is it just to many higher level spells lost?

Kizara
2008-04-17, 08:04 PM
No and No.

gnomas
2008-04-17, 08:06 PM
short but sweet:smallsmile:

so i'll just leave them out, the idea can probably be roleplayed without them

EDIT: yeah the idea was "change" so I was thinking transmuter. however, i think I will go full arcane or full druidy stuff.

UserClone
2008-04-17, 08:07 PM
Optimisively speaking (and yes, i know that's not a word), never. But if it makes sense from an IC perspective, I'd say rock on.

Kizara
2008-04-17, 08:12 PM
I will however note that the Arcane Hierophant class in Races of the Wild is absurdly overpowered, and would make doing what you suggest very feasible.

However, randomly tacking on some wizard levels to a druid build is pretty much garbage optimization-wise.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-17, 08:14 PM
I will however note that the Arcane Hierophant class in Races of the Wild is absurdly overpowered, and would make doing what you suggest very feasible.

However, randomly tacking on some wizard levels to a druid build is pretty much garbage optimization-wise.

Arcane Hierophant suffers from most of Mystic Theurge's faults--it's not overpowered, it's one step away from being trash. If you're starting at really high levels, sure, but trying playing through it. "Mmm, I'm a wiz3/druid3/Arcane Hierophant 1. Boy, I sure love casting Bull's Strength and Glitterdust while my buddies are casting SNA IV and Confusion!"

Nermy
2008-04-17, 08:14 PM
Actually, if you take a level of wizard with the Arcane Mastery feat you can cast level 5 spells from scrolls without worrying about failing. Throw in Practiced Spellcaster and you can do level 7 spells. Still probably not worth it.

edit: assuming you have enough int

Nebo_
2008-04-17, 08:18 PM
I will however note that the Arcane Hierophant class in Races of the Wild is absurdly overpowered, and would make doing what you suggest very feasible.

I'm noticing a trend here. In another thread you just said that Daring Outlaw is overpowered. There's a difference between good and overpowered. AH isn't even that great, the only reason it's better than MT is because it has class features; the pre-requisites are actually worse.

gnomas
2008-04-17, 08:23 PM
yeah keeping my wis and int would both have to high so there's another problem...

hmm, never thought about arcane hierophant. figures my friend has my races of the wild:smallannoyed: all i remember is that they have duel caster progression, their familliars and animal companion are the same, and they can channel spells through plants. anything i'm forgetting?

Nebo_
2008-04-17, 08:24 PM
anything i'm forgetting?

IIRC they get wildshape progression. They also get wizard casting in hide armour.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-17, 08:25 PM
Druid is Extremely Powerful.

Wizard is Extremely Powerful.

Druid plus Wizard is not. Damn loss of spell levels.

Kizara
2008-04-17, 08:27 PM
I'm noticing a trend here. In another thread you just said that Daring Outlaw is overpowered. There's a difference between good and overpowered. AH isn't even that great, the only reason it's better than MT is because it has class features; the pre-requisites are actually worse.

1) Don't bring over baggage from other threads please. Read forum rules.

2) I feel its overpowered because it progresses wild shape and improves your companion further in addition to the spellcasting benefits. Compare it to the Geomancer in the Cdiv.

I will admit that I am guilty of hyperboley. The "absurdly" was inaccurate. Planar Shepard is absurdly overpowered, AH is merely overpowered and this comes in a large part because the abilities it progresses (wild shape and companion) were OP to begin with.

gnomas
2008-04-17, 08:40 PM
wow it seems AH would be awesome if it weren't for the blemish of the spell loss that comes with duel caster progression. it wouldn't be BAD though, just not very optimized...i might use it.

UglyPanda
2008-04-17, 08:55 PM
I'm looking at Arcane Hierophant and it says that you gain wild shape progression if you already have it. Druids gain wild shape at level 5, so the lowest level you can take Arcane Hierophant and get wild shape progression is level 9 (Druid 5/Wiz 3). Is this right?

Reel On, Love
2008-04-17, 09:13 PM
1) Don't bring over baggage from other threads please. Read forum rules.

2) I feel its overpowered because it progresses wild shape and improves your companion further in addition to the spellcasting benefits. Compare it to the Geomancer in the Cdiv.

I will admit that I am guilty of hyperboley. The "absurdly" was inaccurate. Planar Shepard is absurdly overpowered, AH is merely overpowered and this comes in a large part because the abilities it progresses (wild shape and companion) were OP to begin with.

It's not that Arcane Hierophant is overpowered so much as that Geomancer sucks horribly.

AH doesn't progress wildshape if you don't have it, and you don't if you want to enter it ASAP (Druid 3/Wiz 3).

Seriously, AH is a Druid/Wizard prestige class that is weaker than both the Druid and the Wizard. How is it overpowered? So far, you've said nothing to counter the caster level loss, and tried to support your point by... comparing it to one of the worst caster PrCs written.

Eldariel
2008-04-17, 09:31 PM
AH is a bit funny:
-Requires BAB +4, but the example build is Druid 3/Wizard 3/AH 4, which has BAB +3. Basically, you need either Druid 4/Wizard 3 to enter AH, or you need to use Dragonwrought Battle Sorcerer or some other attrocity (or some cheatyface early entry).
-While the Wild Shape specifically states you don't get a Wild Shape, all the examples point out that your Druid and AH-levels are added together for Wild Shape so Druid 3/AH 4 has a Druid 7 Wild Shape. Also, it states as much after it says 'you don't gain new Wild Shape', so I guess it's just bad wording.

Basically, it's a fine class, but without early entry cheese, it's just another caster.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-17, 10:11 PM
How I would build an AH: Druid 6/Wizard 1 with Natural Spell and the Precocious Apprentice feat. Maybe toss in Practiced Spellcaster, too, to fix that Wizard progression. You get Druid 19/Wizard 11 at level 20.

Also, ignore the example builds. They always are junk that breaks their own rules. :smallconfused:

Chronos
2008-04-17, 10:13 PM
AH isn't even that great, the only reason it's better than MT is because it has class features; the pre-requisites are actually worse.The other advantage of Arcane Heirophant is that you can combine it with Mystic Theurge. That way, you can keep your dual progression all the way up to CL 20, enough to (barely) get both 9th level arcane and divine spells.

As for the power loss, yes, it's weaker than pure wizard or pure druid. That's because everything is weaker than pure wizard or pure druid. You'll still compare quite favorably to any non-full-caster character.

Aquillion
2008-04-18, 12:59 AM
1) Don't bring over baggage from other threads please. Read forum rules.

2) I feel its overpowered because it progresses wild shape and improves your companion further in addition to the spellcasting benefits. Compare it to the Geomancer in the Cdiv.

I will admit that I am guilty of hyperboley. The "absurdly" was inaccurate. Planar Shepard is absurdly overpowered, AH is merely overpowered and this comes in a large part because the abilities it progresses (wild shape and companion) were OP to begin with.But even though it continues them, they lose levels from the prerequisites... and the weakened wizard casting you get (likewise damaged by the prerequisites) is just not going to make up for it. Even if Natural Spell lets you cast when wild shaped, you still have to choose between casting and fighting; it's overall a bad move (from an optimization standpoint) to trade in one powerful, widely-applicable option for two weaker options when you're only going to end up using one of them each round. The companions is an exception, but still, it's not adding that much to a wizard, and certainly not enough to make up for the lost CL.

Now, is the Arcane Hierophant usable? Yes, sure. It can be quite good. But calling a PRC that makes both of the classes involved in entering it substantially weaker 'overpowered' is silly. If someone in your group is typically a Druidzilla and you wanted to have them tone it down a bit, asking them to enter Arcane Hierophant (without early entrance cheese) would be a perfectly fine way of doing it, although perhaps not as extreme as some options.

But anyway, to get back to gnomas' question, Arcane Hierophant is fine unless you're really obsessed with optimization. It won't cost you that much, and unless your entire party is full casters you won't really have to worry about being overshadowed. It would be a particularly good idea if your party has no arcanist, of course. (As is the case with most 'fusion' classes.) With a full arcanist around, your own arcane abilities will mostly just be used to full in the gaps (though still useful.)

JaxGaret
2008-04-18, 01:42 AM
As for the power loss, yes, it's weaker than pure wizard or pure druid. That's because everything is weaker than pure wizard or pure druid. You'll still compare quite favorably to any non-full-caster character.

Agreed. This is often left out of the discussion; take a vanilla Wizard4/Druid3/AH3 as an example. Compare it to a moderately optimized Scout3/Ranger7 with Swift Hunter build, and you'll find that the AH isn't too shabby.

Optimization does not mean that you have to powergame to excess, it simply means that you optimize your character properly for your campaign. If everyone is running Druid20s and Wizard/Iot7Vs and Archivist/SEs, then yes, the AH is going to compare miserably. If the rest of the party is not so optimized, the AH can contribute.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-18, 02:03 AM
Really strong with the Precocious Apprentice feat trick for early entry going MT before entering into AT and finishing up with MT for lots of spellcasting.

Eldariel
2008-04-18, 03:54 AM
As for the power loss, yes, it's weaker than pure wizard or pure druid. That's because everything is weaker than pure wizard or pure druid. You'll still compare quite favorably to any non-full-caster character.

The point is, if a Prestige Class designed specifically for class X makes that class weaker, chances are the Prestige Class isn't broken. More than likely, it's just trying to fix something that's already broken.

Citizen Jenkins
2008-04-18, 04:43 AM
Well, to the OP, it is possible to build a decent character with both druid and arcane spellcasting but it involves the sorts of things that usually get you punched in the face. For example, the Beholder Mage PrC from the Lords of Madness book will get you level 9 spells in just nine levels (it has a similar spell progression to the Ur-Priest). So Druid 11/Beholder Mage 2/Arcane Hierophant 7 would basically cast as a level 18 Druid and a level 18 Sorcerer plus most of his Wildshape/Animal Companion progression plus a few extra abilities.

Besides the aforementioned punching, however, even this kind of build has its shortfalls. For most of your development you'll essentially be two levels behind in spellcasting in exchange for some low level arcane spells. Sure, at level 20 you'll be super-nasty but you've got 4-6 levels before you begin to see real payoff. Worse, once the build is finally finished high-level spellcasting has already made the game silly and the power difference between you and a level 20 druid becomes academic.

Rad
2008-04-18, 05:21 AM
I do not want to start an argument here, I just want to give an advice to the OP under some assumptions on the interpretation of the rules; id someone disagrees with this interpretation they are welcome to PM me or start a thread.

Assumptions:
Arcane Hierophant is one of the most controverted classes (the description is filled with mistakes and this looks like one of those occasions where the usual rules (text trumpr tables; rules trump examples etc.) might not apply (another such case is the Rainbow Servant). There are some official responses in both directions (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-554234.html) about the wild shape; I will assume that you do get it if you have druid levels, even if they are 4 or less.

The build I suggest is Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge for the rest. (I do not consider the Precocious apprentice entry valid by either RAI or RAW). Be sure that the campaign will get you to high levels though or the AH levels will come too late (you are level 8 by the time you qualify).

An AH is good. Not as good as a pure druid or wizard, but weaker than the strongest is not weak. I don't think you'll feel useless in any "normal" group (as in: something that includes non-casters), particularly if there is no other arcane caster. I am sure you can have a lot of fun with it without being useless.

Hope this helps.

PS: Wildshape is not that great. Remember that you can either use that or your spells but not both. Ah, and you'll not be able to take Natural Spell until level 12 :smallfrown:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-18, 06:19 AM
PS: Wildshape is not that great. Remember that you can either use that or your spells but not both. Ah, and you'll not be able to take Natural Spell until level 12 :smallfrown:

Actually, you can take Natural spell at level 1, since it doesn't require that you be able to Wildshape to take the feat. I recommend this for anyone dumping physicals and using the SpC too, because there are spells in it that allow you to basically wildshape into creatures starting at level 1. These spells specifically allow you to continue casting spells if you have the Natural Spell feat.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-18, 06:27 AM
Actually, you can take Natural spell at level 1, since it doesn't require that you be able to Wildshape to take the feat.

Quoting from d20srd.org,

Natural Spell [General]
Prerequisites

Wis 13, wild shape ability.

Vael Nir
2008-04-18, 06:40 AM
As somebody who's playing a vanilla MT, dual progression is fun. Sure, I'm a spell level behind, but I also always have something useful to cast. I can heal, buff, do damage... I just do worse in specialization. The worst part are the first few levels, getting third level spells feels like christmas. :-)

Practiced spellcaster can help if you have access to scrolls/wands.

gnomas
2008-04-18, 03:12 PM
I would probably be the only person in the group worrying about optimization, so im not worried about being overshadowed too much. There would also deffinately be another acanist.

The problem I can't get over is how much the CL loss hurts classes that might otherwise be really good. I've been thinking about remaking some of them so they advance whatever spellcasting classes you meet the requirements for when you enter (so you have a choice), but that will have to be worked on more before I try it.

Assuming I have decided to split this idea into two different characters, what are some good druid PrCs? Is master of many forms (complete adventurer) good? It doesn't advance spellcasting, but as has been said, you can only focus on one thing each round so...

Kizara
2008-04-18, 03:35 PM
I would probably be the only person in the group worrying about optimization, so im not worried about being overshadowed too much. There would also deffinately be another acanist.

The problem I can't get over is how much the CL loss hurts classes that might otherwise be really good. I've been thinking about remaking some of them so they advance whatever spellcasting classes you meet the requirements for when you enter (so you have a choice), but that will have to be worked on more before I try it.

Assuming I have decided to split this idea into two different characters, what are some good druid PrCs? Is master of many forms (complete adventurer) good? It doesn't advance spellcasting, but as has been said, you can only focus on one thing each round so...

In my opinion, MoMF is good if you want to focus on your shapeshifting. Yes, you lose casting, but you gain amazing shifting abilities.

Beastmaster is good for a 1 level dip, as it nets you a second companion.

Other than that, there isn't a whole lot. Honestly, druid 20 is plenty strong.

gnomas
2008-04-18, 03:57 PM
another companion? so now a druid is 3 super strong giant bears in one, with one capable of casting spells?

EDIT: just looked it up and if you already have one your levels just stack. Oh well that's still good, and not as overpowered as what i thought.

Chronos
2008-04-18, 04:23 PM
In my opinion, MoMF is good if you want to focus on your shapeshifting. Yes, you lose casting, but you gain amazing shifting abilities.If you want to go Master of Many Forms, a better base class is the wildshaping variant of the ranger in Unearthed Arcana. You get better BAB and more skills, and I think one of the ranger bonus feats might be a prerequisite. You only get a touch of spellcasting, but as a MoMF, that's not going to be too hot, anyway.

Kizara
2008-04-18, 04:33 PM
If you want to go Master of Many Forms, a better base class is the wildshaping variant of the ranger in Unearthed Arcana. You get better BAB and more skills, and I think one of the ranger bonus feats might be a prerequisite. You only get a touch of spellcasting, but as a MoMF, that's not going to be too hot, anyway.

The 5 levels or so of druid casting that you would get is pretty useful though.

You get alot of decent buffs. Heck even bull's strength + endurance is good for a long while. Thornskin is amazing, barkskin is useful for quite some time, etc.

JaxGaret
2008-04-18, 04:53 PM
The 5 levels or so of druid casting that you would get is pretty useful though.

You get alot of decent buffs. Heck even bull's strength + endurance is good for a long while. Thornskin is amazing, barkskin is useful for quite some time, etc.

Access to 3rd level spells + good Fort save is nice, but the opportunity cost of -2 BAB, two feats (Endurance + Natural Spell), and 16 skill points IMO puts the Wildshape Ranger a bit ahead of the Druid when segueing into MoMF.

There may be some overpowered low-level Druid spells in the SC that swing this balance back in the Druid's favor, although I think there are some nice 1st level Ranger spells in there too.

gnomas
2008-04-18, 07:09 PM
It's all moot for me since I don't have unearthed arcana though. what kind of stuff does wildshape ranger get?

Nature's warrior, yes or no? a druid 5/NW 5/MoMF 10 would only cast as a 7th lvl druid but the wild shape would be awesome! And you could wildshape into yourself (MoMF 1st lvl get humanoid) and gain bonusses of NW while in "natural" form.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-18, 07:12 PM
Go Warshaper instead of Nature's Warrior and you've got a plan.

JaxGaret
2008-04-18, 07:12 PM
It's all moot for me since I don't have unearthed arcana though. what kind of stuff does wildshape ranger get?

Wildshape Ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger).

gnomas
2008-04-18, 07:58 PM
If I have both the wild shape class feature AND are of the shapechanger subtype (MoMF0, do I gain flashmorph or multimorph when I become a level 5 warshaper?

JaxGaret
2008-04-18, 08:03 PM
If I have both the wild shape class feature AND are of the shapechanger subtype (MoMF0, do I gain flashmorph or multimorph when I become a level 5 warshaper?

Multimorph. The rules state that if you have Wild Shape, you get Multimorph instead of Flashmorph.

A lenient DM can rule otherwise, but that's the RAW on it.

gnomas
2008-04-18, 08:09 PM
I'd rule that you get to choose, but the RAW does seem to say that. I think they just weren't watching the wording since they didn't expect one person to fall into mor ethan one group. Any one you think is better? I think I'd go for multimorph anyway since I can just take fast wildshape.

monty
2008-04-18, 11:08 PM
Assuming I have decided to split this idea into two different characters, what are some good druid PrCs? Is master of many forms (complete adventurer) good? It doesn't advance spellcasting, but as has been said, you can only focus on one thing each round so...

If you want overpowered cheese, try Planar Shepherd.

JaxGaret
2008-04-18, 11:30 PM
I'd rule that you get to choose, but the RAW does seem to say that. I think they just weren't watching the wording since they didn't expect one person to fall into mor ethan one group. Any one you think is better? I think I'd go for multimorph anyway since I can just take fast wildshape.

Multimorph is better IMO. It improves the Druid's versatility greatly, whereas since the Druid is going be spending much of their time in Wild Shape anyway, Flashmorph will not be as much of a benefit.

In other words, Multimorph is worth way more than a feat, and Flashmorph is worth a single feat (equivalent to Fast Wild Shape).

Talic
2008-04-19, 01:09 AM
For a druid? Probably no. For a fighter/barbarian? A level of Wizard (Focused Specialist: Transmutation) is a lovely thing. Enlarge Person? Fist of Stone? Expeditious Retreat? Yes, please. Barbarian is prob a better use here, and run with Mage Armor until you can get a twilight mithril feycraft something. Or run a level of Fighter, and go with Armored Caster (Unearthed Arcana, same as Focused Specialist), and wear a chain shirt with no spell failure.

Final build would be Wiz 1/Fi 2/Barb X.

Also, Lycanthropes use a level of wizard well, since, if the base form is humanoid, they're humanoid in any form... So the Large Hybrid Weretiger can go Huge (or the large full tiger, if you have sudden still/sudden silent).

Otherwise, though, for other full casters, they have other, better options.

gnomas
2008-04-19, 08:30 AM
I don't have much time so I'll only say this: I haven't even read planar sheperd and I know I don't want that level of cheese