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Nychta
2008-04-17, 08:50 PM
Okay, so I've started to DM this fledgling group. They have their normal share of problems, but the thing that bugs me the most is this Paladin, who, for convenience's sake, I'll name Bob.
So. Possibly, the problem is with Bob's player, but I'd like to tackle the problem in-game first. The issue here is that Bob is not a very enthusiastic paladin. His backstory is pretty much "Well, he's human, and he thought serving Heironious would be good, so yeah". Bob parties with a N-G druid and a C-N rogue, sometimes a C-N barbarian, too. The rogue seems to bully Bob into a lot of situations where it's "Shoot them from behind first, loot their bodies later". Bob protests mildly, but usually goes along with it. So the "Lawful" part of his alignment is questionable. I think he's fulfilling the "Good" part of his alignment, but not very enthusiastically. For instance, the last plot hook was along the lines of "Goblins are attacking a village" (though of course, more fleshed-out than that). All the players looked at me, and were like: "...and...?"
Bob will help people if he comes across desperate people, but doesn't exactly volunteer his services. Also, he hates getting into any kind of dispute. I don't know how much of this is to do with the player's personality; he's rather timid himself, and might only be playing because his friends dragged him into it. (He'll deny this, of course.)

In essence, I don't think he's being very paladin-y, and I wanted to give him a last chance to redeem himself. I know you guys will be able to help me, and I really hope you do.

sonofzeal
2008-04-17, 09:15 PM
Hrm, heavy. Given the context there really might not be anything you can do. I mean, you can't expect him (the player) to flip personalities overnight because of some tip you got off the interblarg. Still...

- Give him one of the dozen different sets of questions designed to stimulate thought about character concepts. These often include such things as "what was your family like", "what led you to choose the life path (ie class) you did", "what are you afraid of", etc.

- Try building something tailored to his character. Invoke church politics for whichever Order he is a part of. Bring in some of his superiors giving him some sacred duty and go to great lengths to impress on him how important this is to the Order, however mundane the task might appear (say, delivering an unnamed package to a reclusive hermit, maybe having it radiating a strong magic aura to add to the mystique).

- Talk to the guy OOC. Ask him why he doesn't seem to be getting into it, and if he'd rather just observe for a while. Then send the Paladin off on that quest and let the party run off on their own for a bit.

Riffington
2008-04-17, 09:30 PM
Have Heironeous send in a guiding angel (advice only) to whisper advice in the guy's ear. If he follows its suggestions, soon enough he'll be coming up with those upright ideas himself. If not, soon enough he'll be playing something other than a paladin.

Jayabalard
2008-04-17, 09:36 PM
When you have problems with a player, you should always try and deal with it out of game.

Bad roleplay should have in game consequences, but it's silly to punish someone because "they're doing it wrong" if you haven't talked to them about it.

Accersitus
2008-04-17, 09:47 PM
I don't know how much of this is to do with the player's personality; he's rather timid himself, and might only be playing because his friends dragged him into it. (He'll deny this, of course.)


If the player is new to D&D or general RPG, I wouldn't be too hard on him
for playing the class with strict alignment enforcement. Maybe introduce
some NPC paladins in the next session to give him a chance to see how
you view a paladin disguised as a part of the plot. Maybe have the party
captured by some evil and saved by the group of paladins (just to put the
PCs in the same spot as the villagers they are supposed to save from the
goblins), if you think your players can handle being defeated and saved
by NPCs.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-17, 09:49 PM
It may not be a very good Paladin, but this seems orders of magnitude better then a Zealot type Paladin, bossing people around and telling everyone what they're doing is wrong.

But then, it's not like "push over" and "jerk" are the only options. Finding that middle ground though might be hard. If you allow them, it might be appropriate for him to switch to a variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)Paladin. It might be more appropriate for the character for instance to be a Paladin of Freedom. But getting pushed around might still be a bit of a problem, since he's still supposed to be a Paragon of virtue.

Nychta
2008-04-17, 09:53 PM
Thanks, guys. I'll talk to him first, then have a scenario in which the party's saved by some NPC paladins. All the suggestions were good; this one just happens to fit the current storyline best.

Thanks again.

Khanderas
2008-04-18, 07:44 AM
Well off the top of my head, put him in a situation where he is expected to lead.
Such as the church charges him with something farily simple, say clearing monsters in a remote area that is pestering a local community of worshippers of Heronyous.

The NPC's would assume the Paladin to be the leader (since they asked the church for help and one of its Paladins rides in) and the PC's to be hired help of him. The church gave him the details and responsibility of the mission, with the advice to bring his friends along to make the job safer.

Simple job on the outside, that may be as easy as it appears, harder, unexpected twists, an extra mile (that is the den is cleared, but a bandit lord is nearby so the option is to take them on too even though it wasn't in the jobdescription) or any combination of the above.
The reward can be improved equipment before heading out, promised specified rewards (such as 1000 gold and this sword) or unstated boons from the church, as appropriate (basically the paladin scores points that he can cash in for equipment, training and other physical rewards for himself and his partners later on when they need help with something).

You can, but I problebly won't reccomend it on the first paladin outing, have some paladin'y problems on the way. Saving the peasants or grab some loot and other moral questions.
Basically, the kid in question playing, probebly needs to be involved alittle more, sounds like everyone else dragged him in and put him in a corner. Putting him in the spotlight alittle MAY help him be alittle more intrested in the game.

Corolinth
2008-04-18, 08:14 AM
The paladin in my campaign had never played before. I sat down with him at an IHOP prior to generating his character and had a long talk about what a paladin is, and how they tend to act. He's done a great job at it.

What I would recommend is that you sit down with this guy and talk to him about how he's playing his character. Explain that a paladin is more than just a fighter with smite evil, and discuss whether a paladin is actually the right character for him. Maybe it's not. Maybe he just needs to be playing a neutral fighter, and if that's the case, let him make and play that character instead.

hamishspence
2008-04-18, 08:19 AM
remeber Indiana Jones: Only the penitent man will pass, and the penitent man is humble.

Not something to be carried to extremes, but humility is a virtue worth considering, make it a roleplaying strength instead of a weakness?

AslanCross
2008-04-18, 08:47 AM
remeber Indiana Jones: Only the penitent man will pass, and the penitent man is humble.

Not something to be carried to extremes, but humility is a virtue worth considering, make it a roleplaying strength instead of a weakness?

Humility does not include being bullied by rogues, however.

I agree with many of the posts above---he has to be put in a situation where he is expected to lead. A good talk with the player is still in order, however.

Honestly, I'd rather deal with this paladin than one of my players last year. His paladin was more Chaotic Lazy than anything, with little of the angst that his backstory was saturated in.

DeathQuaker
2008-04-18, 09:08 AM
Thanks, guys. I'll talk to him first, then have a scenario in which the party's saved by some NPC paladins. All the suggestions were good; this one just happens to fit the current storyline best.

If he still has trouble, try suggesting running prelude with him. This is an idea drawn from Storyteller games, but I think it's a great idea for any system.

The idea is just a 1-on-1 short session between you and the player, roleplaying out his earlier life and the pivotal moment that put him on the path he was at the beginning of the campaign. If he's having trouble getting into character, making him roleplay out some events and answer questions in character (e.g., having the priest of Heironeous ask him, "Why were you called here?" might force him to jog his imagination more than you asking him OOC).

Obviously, these are usually run before a campaign starts, but a retroactive prelude might help him out still get a better sense of his character and what his character's motivations are.

Also, if it's still not working out, it's cool to gently suggest maybe he try a different character that doesn't have as many "fluff requirements" attached.