A practical use for Truenaming!

[Chronos]

Yes, I've actually found a practical use for truenaming, the impossible-to-use magic system from Tome of Magic. For background, to actually do anything with Truenaming, you have to speak the Truename of your target. This requires a True Speech skill check, with a DC of 15 + 2x the creature's CR (notice that this starts off hard, and gets harder faster than you can gain ranks in the skill, hence the poor regard in which Truenaming is held). This truename describes a creature like "The orc who is charging at me", or "the ugly guy at the end of the bar" (personal names are more powerful, but also more difficult). It's a known phenomenon, in in-character terms, that creatures that are harder to fight are also harder to name (even by generic names like those above). But this very problem can actually be used to your advantage! How? I'll answer by way of example.

Suppose you're in a dungeon, on one side of a door. You think there might be a guard waiting on the other side of the door, but you're not sure. What do you do? You try to say the phrase "The guard waiting on the other side of the door", in Truespeach. If you find that there's no word for this (since something that doesn't exist obviously can't have a True Name), then you know that there is no guard on the other side of the door. If you're able to say the word easily, then you know that there is a guard on the other side of the door, but he's low CR, so you can feel free to just kick down the door and fight him. But if you find it's really hard to say the phrase "the guard waiting on the other side of the door", then you know that there's a guard there, and he's high CR, so you should just sneak past and try some other way in.

Yay for free divinations! And best of all, since you don't ever actually need to use any utterances (the Truenamer's equivalent of spells), it can work in an anti-magic field, and completely ignores any sort of spell resistance or similar abilities. You don't even need to spend any actions on it, since speaking is a free action.

[Solo]

Heh.

Cute.

[Recaiden]

Yes, its a practical use, but you took a level in truenamer.

[Chronos]

Yes, its a practical use, but you took a level in truenamer.Not necessarily. Since it doesn't need any utterances, you can just do it with Truename Training. Or the Able Learner/Factotum combination.

[Suzuro]

AH! I think I've found a flaw in your Logic!

Lets say I attempt this, but I end up rolling a natural twenty. Well, then, I'm basically going to succeed regardless of CR (With my old DM, at least) and it's doubtful that the DM will tell you the DC of the check. Conversely, if I roll a natural One, I'm going to fail even if it is a low CR guard...




-Suzuro

[Nebo_]

Lets say I attempt this, but I end up rolling a natural twenty. Well, then, I'm basically going to succeed regardless of CR (With my old DM, at least) and it's doubtful that the DM will tell you the DC of the check. Conversely, if I roll a natural One, I'm going to fail even if it is a low CR guard...


Skills don't actually work that way.

[Cuddly]

Skills don't actually work that way.

RAW, at least. More than a few games play with critical success and failures with skill checks.

[Suzuro]

Well, even without critical failures, let's say I roll a one, even with extremely good bonuses to the skill, I'm still unlikely to even hit the base 15 DC, let alone double the CR.



-Suzuro

[Skjaldbakka]

Truenaming done right: link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71422)

[SurlySeraph]

Has no one ever thought of applying all the Diplomancer skill-boosting tricks to Truespeak?

[Skjaldbakka]

Are you referring to the half-elf racial bonus to diplomacy, and the synergy bonus to diplomacy from bluff, sense motive, and knowledge nobility. Those don't work for truespeak.

[Chronos]

The problem with boosting the Truename skill is twofold. First, a lot of the abilities which boost skills only work for specific skills, and Truespeech is never one of the skills available on the list. Second, most of the other methods for boosting skills (Factotum's Cunning Knowledge, Exemplar's Skill Artistry, various spells, etc.) require levels in other classes, and nothing else advances Truenamer utterances. So you're basically stuck choosing from not being able to make the checks, or being able to make the checks but not being able to do anything with them.

Back to my trick, if you're worried about the vagaries of the dice roll, just try saying it two or three times. Or ten times, or however many it takes for you to get a good statistical feel.

[Icewalker]

That is awful. It isn't that bad of a class, at least fluffwise. Ok, I can't even say that either. The class sucks. It makes for an interesting character (I made a truenamer who spoke 20 languages. He was first level).

[JaxGaret]

Second, most of the other methods for boosting skills (Factotum's Cunning Knowledge, Exemplar's Skill Artistry, various spells, etc.) require levels in other classes, and nothing else advances Truenamer utterances. So you're basically stuck choosing from not being able to make the checks, or being able to make the checks but not being able to do anything with them.

You left out a big one: investing skill ranks in an Item Familiar nets you big gains in Truespeech checks, and it doesn't take up precious class levels.

A single level in Exemplar brings some nice returns to a Truenamer build, more than pretty much any other dip. +4 and auto take 10s on Truenaming is just nice.

Also, I recommend (depending on DM approval - but c'mon, it's the Truenamer, the DM should be helping you out a little) making a feat similiar to Practiced Spellcaster or the Binder's Improved Binding, that gives a +2 [or +4 up to your HD] to your effective Truenaming level, or both of those feats - one to counteract class dips, and one to make the Truenamer class itself a bit more useful.


Back to my trick, if you're worried about the vagaries of the dice roll, just try saying it two or three times. Or ten times, or however many it takes for you to get a good statistical feel.

It is a neat trick. I like it.

[Skjaldbakka]

You left out a big one: investing skill ranks in an Item Familiar nets you big gains in Truespeech checks, and it doesn't take up precious class levels.

True, Item Familiar makes Truenamer playable. But that also leaves you open to the possibility of getting absolutely screwed over. There is also the general brokeness of Item Familiar, which is only not broken if a Truenamer is the one using it.

Imagine a rogue with an Item Familiar, for example. You could have a Hide check in the stratosphere.

[JaxGaret]

True, Item Familiar makes Truenamer playable. But that also leaves you open to the possibility of getting absolutely screwed over. There is also the general brokeness of Item Familiar, which is only not broken if a Truenamer is the one using it.

Which is why you let the Truenamer in your party have one. :smallsmile: Call it a Truenamer's Familiar, add a prerequisite so that only Truenamers can take it.

It's true that the Truenamer's Item Familiar then becomes a serious liability-in-waiting, like the Wizard's spellbook. But AFAICT the vast majority of campaigns have an unwritten "don't mess with the Wizard's spellbook" rule, so the same would go for the Truenamer's Familiar.

[GammaPaladin]

There's always a ring of truespeech +30 for 90,000 gp. Or an unslotted item of +30 truespeech for 180,000 gp.

[Skjaldbakka]

Hmm, I will typically mess with the wizard's spellbook for exactly one plot arc in a typical campaign. Unless I have a plot arc with heavy use of AMFs or MK's Disj., in which case I don't.

I may have misread Item Familiar, but it seems like you permanently lose the skill ranks if the item is destroyed. A wizard who loses his spellbook can buy scrolls to replace the spells. You can't buy skill points.

So you pretty much have to trust the DM not to screw you, which may or may not be an issue, depending on what kind of gamers you have available in your area.



There's always a ring of truespeech +30 for 90,000 gp.

Problem 1: There is no such item, and many, many DMs are unfriendly towards custom items.

Problem 2: The truenamer requires this item to function (by level 20). The fighter can get by w/o his magic sword for awhile. The truenamer suddenly can't use any of his party buffs or healing in the 'party is captured and must re-claim their stuff while escaping' scenario.

Problem 3: The truenamer is the only class that actively gets less powerful as it gains in level. The truenamer is less likely to succeed at using a good number of powers (buffs/heals) the higher level he is.

[JaxGaret]

Hmm, I will typically mess with the wizard's spellbook for exactly one plot arc in a typical campaign. Unless I have a plot arc with heavy use of AMFs or MK's Disj., in which case I don't.

Precisely, for 95% of the campaign (or whatever percentage it actually is), you are running with the unwritten rule "don't mess with the Wizard's spellbook". Which is perfectly reasonable, mind you - it's tough as the DM to have to worry about whether or not you are targeting the Wizzie's spellbook enough or too much. It's easier and more fun for everyone involved for you to just leave it out of the equation, like a Familiar that everyone forgot about but there it is! :smallsmile:

This is beside that fact that the targeting/non-targeting of the spellbook affects the Wizard's overall power a significant amount, but that's a rant for another thread.


I may have misread Item Familiar, but it seems like you permanently lose the skill ranks if the item is destroyed. A wizard who loses his spellbook can buy scrolls to replace the spells. You can't buy skill points.

A Wizard who loses his spellbook is probably going to end up dead soon unless he took Spell Mastery a couple of times, but you are correct here.


So you pretty much have to trust the DM not to screw you, which may or may not be an issue, depending on what kind of gamers you have available in your area.

Right, it does depend on the game. I'm assuming non-foaming-at-the-mouth, reasonable DMing here.

[Skjaldbakka]

A Wizard who loses his spellbook is probably going to end up dead soon unless he took Spell Mastery a couple of times, but you are correct here.


Resurrections, like scrolls, and unlike skill points, can be purchased with money.

[JaxGaret]

Resurrections, like scrolls, and unlike skill points, can be purchased with money.

Doesn't change the fact that the Wizard still doesn't have his spellbook, unless the resurrecting party was so nice as to get it back in the meantime - and how are they doing that without their Wizard? :smallsmile:

On a serious note, a competent Wizard who has to actually deal with people messing with his spellbook will a) have taken Spell Mastery several times (that's why those bonus feats come in handy) and b) will have expensive protections on his primary spellbook, and secondary spellbooks hidden away, which is more expense.

[Novaya_Russia]

The problem with boosting the Truename skill is twofold. First, a lot of the abilities which boost skills only work for specific skills, and Truespeech is never one of the skills available on the list. Second, most of the other methods for boosting skills (Factotum's Cunning Knowledge, Exemplar's Skill Artistry, various spells, etc.) require levels in other classes, and nothing else advances Truenamer utterances. So you're basically stuck choosing from not being able to make the checks, or being able to make the checks but not being able to do anything with them.

Back to my trick, if you're worried about the vagaries of the dice roll, just try saying it two or three times. Or ten times, or however many it takes for you to get a good statistical feel.I thought the DC to repeat an utterance went up by 2 every time you repeated it?

Also, I'm curious - if there are two guards behind the door, what would happen? Though that could be circumvented by uttering "The most powerful guard behind this door", or something, to ensure you refer to only one target.

And why can't a Truenamer simply max buff his INT to make higher DC's? I'd swear I saw viable numbers for that.

[Skjaldbakka]

Truenamers have a few things with DCs, but the primary mechanic is making a skill check vs. 15 +2*CR. The DC increases by 2 after each successful use of an utterance.

Note to use an utterance on yourself at level 20, we are talking about a DC 55 skill check as your base DC.

[kamikasei]

Out of sheer perverse curiosity, I'm actually running some numbers on this now. I can see that if you take a truenamer with 18 int (starting) and skill focus (truenaming), then without any other feats or equipment, the DCs start out lower than his average check and end up higher than his maximum.

Does anyone have a guideline/rule of thumb as to when your headbands of intellect +x should be gained, when you should get your tome-derived stat increases, etc? Are there any other feats or items that can be added in?

[GammaPaladin]

I'm guessing the scaling DC was intended to work against the aforementioned +30 truespeech ring, which by MIC rules can be purchased as a +1 ring and slowly enhanced over time, spreading the cost out across multiple levels. When you figure that in, it makes sense...

Yes, a lot of DMs won't allow custom items, but they ARE RAW, and the class was balanced against the possibilities inherent in the RAW, which makes sense.

Also, I find far more DMs allow custom items at their own discretion than simply disallow them... Yes, it's easier to just say no to the whole shebang, but unless your players are whiny... um... people, it's totally fair to say "You can have custom magic items, but I get final say on which are allowed and the price".

And I think noone is dumb enough to think a +30 truespeech ring or other item is going to unbalance the game...

And a wizard losing his spellbook is just as crippled as a Truenamer without his +30 ring... Arguably moreso, to be honest. So in the "Party is knocked out and wakes up the next day without their gear in a jail cell" plotline, the Truenamer is better off than the Wizard.

Also, DMs who do that plotline are evil and should be avoided ;)

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

And a wizard losing his spellbook is just as crippled as a Truenamer without his +30 ring... Arguably moreso, to be honest. So in the "Party is knocked out and wakes up the next day without their gear in a jail cell" plotline, the Truenamer is better off than the Wizard.

1) It is balance against the +10 Truespeech item in the book.

2) No he isn't because the Wizard just uses those spells he still has in his head to teleport out of there and pick up an extra spell book that he stored somewhere. A Truenamer on the other hand is physically incapable of making the DC check to affect himself with his own abilities, much less other people.

[GammaPaladin]

Um, no. If he was knocked out and wakes up the next day he has no spells. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

[kamikasei]

Um, no. If he was knocked out and wakes up the next day he has no spells. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

This is incorrect; spells a wizard has prepared stay prepared until he casts them. They don't all disappear once he rests, resting just lets him change them.

References:
Firstly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparedSpellRetention),

Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in her mind as a nearly cast spell until she uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until she abandons it.
Furthermore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n),

Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used... If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

[Starbuck_II]

As long as you still have spells prepaed in your mind you can make a new spelbook:
If she already has a partcular spell prepared, she can write it dirctly into the spellbook at 100 gp/page (unless Baccob's Blessed book which is free). Otherwise you have to get a scroll or a borrowed spellbook to prepare the spells so you can add it.

[GammaPaladin]

This is incorrect; spells a wizard has prepared stay prepared until he casts them. They don't all disappear once he rests, resting just lets him change them.

References:
Firstly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#preparedSpellRetention),

Furthermore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellSelectionandPreparatio n),

Huh, I was certain I'd seen in the book that they are only maintained in memory for 24 hours, and expire at the moment you had prepared them the previous day...

[Chronos]

I thought the DC to repeat an utterance went up by 2 every time you repeated it?Yes, for an utterance. But just saying a particular creature's truename doesn't get any harder.


And why can't a Truenamer simply max buff his INT to make higher DC's? I'd swear I saw viable numbers for that.He can and presumably does. But even if you start off as a Grey Elf with maxed Int, put all of your level-up points in Int, read a +5 tome, wear a +6 headband, and wait for old age, that's still only a +14 ability score modifier, and there's not much you can do besides that to increase it further. If you have all of that, maxed skill ranks, and Skill Focus: Truenaming, then you've got a +40 to your check, meaning that you would still only have a 30% chance to affect something of your level. Toss in the Amulet of Silver Tongues, and it's up to +50, and you've still got a 20% chance of failure, even if you don't need to worry about a saving throw (buffs, say, or healing).


Yes, a lot of DMs won't allow custom items, but they ARE RAW, and the class was balanced against the possibilities inherent in the RAW, which makes sense.No, they're not RAW; they're GAW. There's a reason that section of the book is labeled "Guidelines".

[seedjar]

This does hinge on the notion that you either get a name or you don't when making a Truespeech check in such a manner - I'm not sure I'd play it that way in one of my games. When you do an exam, your wrong answers aren't always blank. Still, it's a very creative trick. As silly as the Truenaming mechanics are, I'd probably give this to someone just to make the class more playable.
~Joe

[Riffington]

Do you have to know about something's existence to Truename it?
Do you have to have line of sight?

Is this different than using Appraise to determine the value of everything in a locked room before deciding whether or not to unlock it? Or Appraising the room's potential guards' potential weapons to see if they are masterwork?

[Chronos]

Do you have to know about something's existence to Truename it?
Do you have to have line of sight?The rules don't say, on either score. You do need line of sight to use an utterance, but it's hard to imagine that you'd need to be able to see something just to be able to talk about it.

Then again, it's also hard to imagine that it'd be more difficult to talk about something just because it happens to be big and nasty, but the rules do say that that's the case.

[Istari]

The bigger they are the more descriptive adjetives they probably have.:smallbiggrin:

[CASTLEMIKE]

Marshal dip with a decent Charisma for Motivate Aura Intelligence with the double aura feat to pick up Motivate Aura Charisma.

[graymachine]

Yes, for an utterance. But just saying a particular creature's truename doesn't get any harder.

He can and presumably does. But even if you start off as a Grey Elf with maxed Int, put all of your level-up points in Int, read a +5 tome, wear a +6 headband, and wait for old age, that's still only a +14 ability score modifier, and there's not much you can do besides that to increase it further. If you have all of that, maxed skill ranks, and Skill Focus: Truenaming, then you've got a +40 to your check, meaning that you would still only have a 30% chance to affect something of your level. Toss in the Amulet of Silver Tongues, and it's up to +50, and you've still got a 20% chance of failure, even if you don't need to worry about a saving throw (buffs, say, or healing).

No, they're not RAW; they're GAW. There's a reason that section of the book is labeled "Guidelines".

Having played a Truenamer in a campaign once to amuse myself, I would point out that most Truenamers are going to use the minor utterance that boosts a skill by +10(+5?) on themselves when combat breaks out. That and scrounging for different types of bonuses will get you by in a short campaign that ends at mid-level.

[Chronos]

Having played a Truenamer in a campaign once to amuse myself, I would point out that most Truenamers are going to use the minor utterance that boosts a skill by +10(+5?) on themselves when combat breaks out.Sure, but then you still have to make the check versus your own DC. And the Law of Resistance still applies to that utterance, so after a few encounters, it's going to start getting very hard to use. Plus, it's one more action that you have to take in combat before you can start doing the useful stuff.

[graymachine]

Sure, but then you still have to make the check versus your own DC. And the Law of Resistance still applies to that utterance, so after a few encounters, it's going to start getting very hard to use. Plus, it's one more action that you have to take in combat before you can start doing the useful stuff.

Out of curiosity, do you know if anyone has cooked up a fix for Truenamer?

[Riffington]

The rules don't say, on either score. You do need line of sight to use an utterance, but it's hard to imagine that you'd need to be able to see something just to be able to talk about it.


You aren't just talking about it, you are describing its very essence with an accuracy that normal language cannot even approach.

One imagines you would need at least some means of perceiving it...