Most overpowered magic item ever?

[Danzaver]

OK, so I was flicking through my "Sword and Fist" guide to Fighters and Monks... page 76: 'Bow of True Arrows'.

At a market price of 4000gp, it has an unlimited amount of 'true strike' spells stored in it (count for arrows from the bow of true arrows only), which can be activated as a spell trigger like a wand (I assume that means a standard action).

Robin Hood eat your heart out?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

There will be a swath of replies saying "Candle of Invocation," likely ninja'ing my post.

Ignore them. A custom item of +10 to speak language which takes the cloak slot is the most overpowered item.

[Nebo_]

That still has nothing on the Thought Bottle.

[Talic]

There is a cloak from BoED that lets you make DC 15 Reflex saves whenever you're hit to negate them. That's up there.

[Tempest Fennac]

How much does the cloak cost? I can see why the Bow of True Arrows is ridculous, but the cloak would probably be okay if it cost a huge amount of money.

[Danzaver]

There is a cloak from BoED that lets you make DC 15 Reflex saves whenever you're hit to negate them. That's up there.

That's BS! Against most things, the chance at hitting you would go from 1 in 20 to 1 in 400.

I hereby ban this item from any game I run. You heard it here first, folks.

Out of curiosity, what is the market price?

[Spiryt]

There is a cloak from BoED that lets you make DC 15 Reflex saves whenever you're hit to negate them. That's up there.

If I said this sentence to my grandma, it's quite possible even she would ask: "but isn't 15 a bit too low? ".

You mean every hit? What's the price of it?:smallconfused:

[Kurald Galain]

Scrolls of Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos are pretty high up there as well, in that (more than any of these other items so far) they tend to find themselves used in highly maximized builds.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Scrolls of Embrace and Shun the Dark Chaos are pretty high up there as well, in that (more than any of these other items so far) they tend to find themselves used in highly maximized builds.Eww, people actually use that? Anyway, the scrolls got me thinking - do crafted contingencies count as magic items?

Also, it seems I'm not exactly a prophet. I suppose CoI is more broken than it is overpowered. I'll throw my vote to the thought bottle as well.

[Nebo_]

There is a cloak from BoED that lets you make DC 15 Reflex saves whenever you're hit to negate them. That's up there.

It's actually for half damage, but evasion fixes that.

[Iku Rex]

OK, so I was flicking through my "Sword and Fist" guide to Fighters and Monks... page 76: 'Bow of True Arrows'.

At a market price of 4000gp, it has an unlimited amount of 'true strike' spells stored in it (count for arrows from the bow of true arrows only), which can be activated as a spell trigger like a wand (I assume that means a standard action).How is it overpowered?

[shadow_archmagi]

Any monster that requires a roll of 11 or better to hit means that only 50% of your shots touch down anyway. Add in cover, or concealment and it goes lower. Then simply add True Strike, and suddenly each and every shot hits home.

Or perhaps, as with most bow enchantments, it applies to each and every shot. So you fire 1 arrow that hits every turn.

[Danzaver]

How is it overpowered?

1. It has unlimited charges
2. It is incredibly cheap
3. It lets a prepared archer start every combat with a true strike spell on them.
4. After only taking a move-equivalent in one round you can have it back up again.
5. True Strike can mean that you can shoot someone 1km away at your normal attack bonus, which if it is pretty high, you can effectively go "ok I raise my bow up into the sky and shoot upwards, aiming to make a called shot to pin that guy who is only a tiny speck on the horizon's foot to the ground, then I pause for one round, then I shoot his other foot". Or you can just shoot someone at +20 to hit to you know, called shot for shooting a flea off the top of his head or something. You could spoil so many DM plans with this.
6. Archery competitions - Robin Hood splitting the arrow anyone? You would win back the market price in no time.
7. It can be used to turn a level 1 commoner with no proficiency into a master archer.
8. Once again, it's only 4000g! Pocket change for high levels, an irresistable investment for low levels.

If you don't think this is overpowered, I shudder to think of what items you are used to playing with.

[Gorbash]

But... Sword and Fist is outdated :smallconfused:

[Mr. Friendly]

Belt of Battle is badly broken. Booya.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

If you don't think this is overpowered, I shudder to think of what items you are used to playing with.

But what can you do with it without making up called shot mechanics that don't exist in the game? A Candle of Invocation can turn me into a God. A Thought Bottle allows me to cast Wish 5 times a day for 250XP. A bow of True strike allows you to hit more often on fewer attacks, even though competent archery builds hit on almost every arrow but can't do enough damage.

So in other words, you are weaker for using this item then for not using it. Wow, not impressed.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Wouldn't something like greater manyshot let you apply the true strike to all your arrows? Then you could do the ranged PA to reap the bonus.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Wouldn't something like greater manyshot let you apply the true strike to all your arrows? Then you could do the ranged PA to reap the bonus.

No it wouldn't. Also, the ranged PA, last I recalled doesn't work on bows, though I could be wrong and it could just work poorly on bows.

[Orran]

In the example of your creature that you need an 11+ to hit:

If you have one shot a round, statistically you'll hit it once every 2 rounds, and if you were to use true strike it would take one standard action to use true strike and one to shoot the creature, meaning that you hit it once in 2 rounds. You're on par.

If you have 2 shots a round thanks to rapid shot you now need 13+ to hit, you hit it just under once per round, statistically. However if you use true strike, you don't get your shot on the first turn and you get one hit on the second round, from true strike, and a (slightly under) 50% chance with your second shot. You've wasted a turn.

This means that this item is useless when fighting weak(ish) monsters, and only slightly useful when fighting tough monsters. When you are a low-level you're unlikely to find creatures that hard to hit, so the 4k is a fair price for an item that won't be used that much. When you're a high level, using the bow wastes so many iterative attacks that it's useless.

This item's main use would be to level the playing field for low level PC's when fighting an enemy with a decent armor class, so 4k is a fair price in my opinion.

[FinalJustice]

There is a cloak from BoED that lets you make DC 15 Reflex saves whenever you're hit to negate them. That's up there.

The infamous Starmantle Cloak, price is a bout 170k gp. Actually, there's a 7th level spell with exactly the same effect, that costs the bargain of 25 gp per cast. Cheese in its finest form.

[Kurald Galain]

Wouldn't something like greater manyshot let you apply the true strike to all your arrows? Then you could do the ranged PA to reap the bonus.

Hm, isn't there something like Power Attack for ranged weapons? If so, +20 to hit may well translate into +40 to damage. Ouch.

[Burley]

There's that one item in the Magic Item Compendium. The one that doesn't exist. Vest of the Archmage? Something like that?
There's a reason why it doesn't exist...

[Dhavaer]

There is a cloak from BoED that lets you make DC 15 Reflex saves whenever you're hit to negate them. That's up there.

It actually lets you make DC 15 saves to take half damage. You need Evasion to negate them, and that's been argued quite a lot.

Still overpowered, though.

[FinalJustice]

Custom Item of Owl's Insight, CL 20. I've seen 20th clerics spend half their WBL in it. It's scary.

[its_all_ogre]

hat of disguise specifically for NPC's rather than PC's though.
although a whole party with them would rock too!

[Azerian Kelimon]

Owl's insight? What does it do?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

There's that one item in the Magic Item Compendium. The one that doesn't exist. Vest of the Archmage? Something like that?
There's a reason why it doesn't exist...

Meh, Vest of the Archmage is pretty average. I know I could find a lot better things to spend 200,000gp on.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Owl's insight? What does it do?

Bonus equal to ½ caster level to Wisdom, I believe. Not sure about the bonus type.

[BRC]

Decanter of Endless Water, get a couple of them and you can flood the world.

[Nebo_]

Owl's insight? What does it do?

It gives an enhancement bonus to wisdom equal to half your CL. It lasts for an hour.

[BadJuJu]

What exactly does the Belt of Battle do? Ill throw my hat in for the Gloves of Man or second the Candle of Invocation.

[Iku Rex]

1. It has unlimited charges
2. It is incredibly cheap
3. It lets a prepared archer start every combat with a true strike spell on them.
4. After only taking a move-equivalent in one round you can have it back up again.
5. True Strike can mean that you can shoot someone 1km away at your normal attack bonus, which if it is pretty high, you can effectively go "ok I raise my bow up into the sky and shoot upwards, aiming to make a called shot to pin that guy who is only a tiny speck on the horizon's foot to the ground, then I pause for one round, then I shoot his other foot". Or you can just shoot someone at +20 to hit to you know, called shot for shooting a flea off the top of his head or something. You could spoil so many DM plans with this.
6. Archery competitions - Robin Hood splitting the arrow anyone? You would win back the market price in no time.
7. It can be used to turn a level 1 commoner with no proficiency into a master archer.
8. Once again, it's only 4000g! Pocket change for high levels, an irresistable investment for low levels.

If you don't think this is overpowered, I shudder to think of what items you are used to playing with.
1. Unimportant since it's so rarely useful. A wand will provide plenty of true strikes for less money.
2. Begging the question.
3. "Every combat"? True strike lasts one round. You'll have to activate the effect in combat almost every time.
4. Huh?
5. You can't shoot 1km with a bow unless you do some mostly pointless specialization. And you'd have to spot your target first. It's an extremely rare situation, and given how the character has true strike on his spell list already the bow won't make much of a difference.
6. So you can cheat at archery competitions. In all my years of playing and DMing DnD 3rd edition I've never encountered an archery competition, and if I did I'd be rather surprised if they allowed magic weapons and spellcasting.
7. A 1st level commoner can't afford the bow and can't use it. If he could, he'd be able to do a measly 1d8+2 damage every other round, which isn't going to impress anyone except other commoners.

[FinalJustice]

It gives an enhancement bonus to wisdom equal to half your CL. It lasts for an hour.

Insight bonus, if I recall correctly. Stack it up on top of enhancement bonus, inherent bonus and SAD and aging, and you have Wis in the 40's. ph34r

[Nebo_]

Insight bonus, if I recall correctly. Stack it up on top of enhancement bonus, inherent bonus and SAD and aging, and you have Wis in the 40's. ph34r

I stand corrected.

[FinalJustice]

BoED retributive amulet, a must have for high level melees. Split every damage you by half, you take half, foe takes half, and he gets the occasional extra point in case of odd-numbered damages. Oh, and +2 sacred bonus to AC. DR 'halfthedamageyoutake'/-- anyone? For 56k gp? I love BoED :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

What exactly does the Belt of Battle do?

Gives you a free extra full attack during any of your turns, 1/day.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Or an extra move action. Or an extra spell a la quicken, though they are non stackable.

Wow. Owl's insight is b0rked. I want an INT version for wizards!

[fendrin]

Most overpowered item, for it's price? Heward's Handy Haversack.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dust of Sneezing and Choking.

[olelia]

Seconded dust

[GammaPaladin]

BoED retributive amulet, a must have for high level melees. Split every damage you by half, you take half, foe takes half, and he gets the occasional extra point in case of odd-numbered damages. Oh, and +2 sacred bonus to AC. DR 'halfthedamageyoutake'/-- anyone? For 56k gp? I love BoED :smallbiggrin:

It's been errata'd. I was actually going to list this one myself, but you beat me. Before the errata, definitely the most overpowered item out there. After the errata, it only works 3 times a day, and it doesn't reduce the damage you take, just makes the person who attacked you take half of it as well.

Still awesome.

[olelia]

It's been errata'd. I was actually going to list this one myself, but you beat me. Before the errata, definitely the most overpowered item out there. After the errata, it only works 3 times a day, and it doesn't reduce the damage you take, just makes the person who attacked you take half of it as well.

Still awesome.

So...if you jump off a cliff and activate it Gravity will take 35 points of damage on average? :smallbiggrin:

[GammaPaladin]

No, the ground does ;)

Hmm... Get yourself out into space, and use some means of propulsion to hurl yourself at the planet fast enough that you take some arbitrarily high and ridiculous amount of damage when you strike the surface. And then activate your amulet.

I have the power to destroy the world!

[tyckspoon]

Nah, falling damage caps at 20d6. You'd have to try and argue that the planet was a heavy object 'falling' into you, so you could use the Hulking Hurler trick and suffer a trillion damage.

[sikyon]

Decanter of Endless Water, get a couple of them and you can flood the world.

Negated by the sphere of anhiallation at the bottom of the sea.

[SCPRedMage]

The infamous Starmantle Cloak, price is a bout 170k gp. Actually, there's a 7th level spell with exactly the same effect, that costs the bargain of 25 gp per cast. Cheese in its finest form.
Starmantle Cloak: 132k gp, instantly DESTROYS any non-magical weapon (including projectiles) that strikes you, turning it into a harmless bit of light. Also allows a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage against attacks with magical weapons.

Two things to point out:

First, no protection against natural weapons, so don't think your rogue can just go charging into combat all willy-nilly with it. Eventually, your rogue is going to end up having to solo a were-tiger or something because of that.

Second, CustServ has previously told players that Evasion does NOT work the Starmantle cloak. Specifically, Evasion work against ATTACKS that allow for a Reflex save for half damage. In the case of the Starmantle cloak, it's not the attack that's allowing for the save, but the item.

The Starmantle Cloak isn't really overpowered in that the Wealth-by-Level chart doesn't put players as being able to afford it until 14th level, and even THEN it'd take up most of their money. By that level, this kind of effect isn't really overpowered...

[Redcap]

I don't know if this will count, since it's not technically a core product, but in the Iron Kingdoms setting there's a weapon known as the Witchfire.
The Witchfire is a +2 unholy greatsword.
Unless I'm off my mark, it also allows the wielder to do the following:
- Access to the Death Domain as if the wielder was a 20th level Cleric.
- All dead creatures within a variable radius around the Witchfire automatically are raised as skeletons, and close in on the wielder. If the wielder is above 10th level, the undead are automatically under the wielder's control. The range of this affect was usually about 50-200 feet,but could be stopped if the sword was inside a heavy stone or metal enclosure.
- The sword allowed the wielder to control naturally occuring non-sentient undead as if they had been successfully rebuked.
- Whenever the sword kills a spell caster, the wielder can permanently gain a small percentage (1-5%, depending on the situation) of the victim's XP, and the victim's soul is sucked into the sword permanently.

The downside was that the sword would drain 100 XP per round from anyone who picked it up that wasn't at least 10th level. Also, the "raise dead" affect couldn't be turned off.

[Dr Bwaa]

I'm surprised it took so long from the Dust to be mentioned. That stuff is wack. Wiggity-wack.

for my contribution, though:

What item is the most overpowered for the price? PHB.

[Frosty]

I'd say Gloves of continuous Wraithstrike would be pretty broken. And craftable for only...24k if I did my calculations correctly (half of market price)

[Draz74]

I'd say Gloves of continuous Wraithstrike would be pretty broken. And craftable for only...24k if I did my calculations correctly (half of market price)

The sad thing is, even custom items like this -- built to abuse loopholes in the custom item rules -- still can't match the Candle of Invocation.

[JaxGaret]

Helm of Opposite Alignment can be world-altering, particularly if it's preceded by strong Will save debuffs.

I'm gonna have to go with Nightsticks, with the RAW ruling that they stack. Free nigh-unlimited metamagic that's only limited by your GP? Yes, please.

[FinalJustice]

Starmantle Cloak: 132k gp, instantly DESTROYS any non-magical weapon (including projectiles) that strikes you, turning it into a harmless bit of light. Also allows a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage against attacks with magical weapons.

Two things to point out:

First, no protection against natural weapons, so don't think your rogue can just go charging into combat all willy-nilly with it. Eventually, your rogue is going to end up having to solo a were-tiger or something because of that.

Second, CustServ has previously told players that Evasion does NOT work the Starmantle cloak. Specifically, Evasion work against ATTACKS that allow for a Reflex save for half damage. In the case of the Starmantle cloak, it's not the attack that's allowing for the save, but the item.

The Starmantle Cloak isn't really overpowered in that the Wealth-by-Level chart doesn't put players as being able to afford it until 14th level, and even THEN it'd take up most of their money. By that level, this kind of effect isn't really overpowered...

Debatable. (I used the trick and had similar arguments, kill me =P)

First:

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature


The SRD states the obvious, Natural Weapons are weapons. If it were to exclude Natural Weapons, the spell would specifically mention it, just like Magic Weapon does (again, can be checked in SRD). So, unless the natural is considered magic, prepare for lose a limb, claws or teeth. (Note the self-sarcasm: When I used it, I was a "reasonable" person and agreed for non disintegration of natural weapons HAUHEAUHEAUAHE Just kill me already) >D

Second: CustServ is not RAW. It's pretty much obvious that, by RAI, the trick shouldn't work and the spell is poor written, no sane person should need CustServ to notice this. But read the description of the Ring of Evasion, by SRD:



Evasion

This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

Emphasis mine.
Specific trumps general. So, by RAW, the trick works with the Ring of Evasion.

For me, totally overpowered. When I've put it to good use, I was able to do fairly good as a 20th Half Celestial Fighter/Kensai with no LA-Buyoff (no wonder I used it). Well, until a giant sorcerer cast AMF with me inside, and four other giants spanked my ass into oblivion. But Robilar's Gambit made me fight until the end. (Yeah, I didn't last to my next round to deactivate the feat and tumble out the AMF).


I'd say Gloves of continuous Wraithstrike would be pretty broken. And craftable for only...24k if I did my calculations correctly (half of market price)

I came up with the same pricing. Surely abusive.

[Chronos]

Actually, continual True Strike isn't all that bad... It'd still only apply to one attack. So you'd need, at the very least, to take it off and put it back on again to get another +20. It would still give you a big boost on the first round of combat, though.

In regards to Starmantle Cloak, evasion would work exactly as well with it as it would with Defensive Roll. Which is to say, not at all. Still, negating half of the weapon damage you take with a very easy save is not bad all by itself.

[Danzaver]

Returning to the bow, maybe it isn't the most overpowered magical item out there, but it is still a serious thorn in a DMs side.

you can shoot something 1km away. You can shoot up to ten times your range increment, which is 100ft. Unless I am mistaken, a kilometer is 1000ft... or is that meters? rats, ok maybe you are right about that one. But 1000 feet (or 1100 with a composite bow) is still a long way to shoot someone as if they were 1 tenth the distance away.

Calculating all of the numbers in combat doesn't show where this bow shines, it is not the bow to use in a long drawn out combat, but for out-of-combat trick shots, like the shoot the sacrificial knife out of the hands of the cultist you can only just see through the window of the castle from where you are standing in the courtyard, thereby saving the princess/whatever. It's incredibly powerful because you can be almost guaranteed to hit with arrows on command, given 6 seconds warning. The mind boggles at the frustration you can cause to your DM with this item. Practically anything he says you see, you can be almost guaranteed to hit with a single arrow. Which, as long as you can see beyond the often shortsighted rules and the tedium of combats, does mean a lot more than 1d8 damage.

I maintain that it is more useful than a wand, because a) you won't want to waste time on getting the wand out and putting it away b) you will need a wizard, rogue or bard to use it, and c) again - unlimited charges. As long as you use it enough, it will be also be more economical than a wand.

Yes, called shots haven't been used since 2nd ed and sword and fist hasn't been used since 3rd ed. So? Taking the first out was a mistake, it fills an important game mechanic rendering combat more than simple number-crunching, and no subsequent edition has attempted to fill that gap, and I'll be buggered if I will stop using any number of books because Hasbro wants more money.

[Jack_Simth]

That still has nothing on the Thought Bottle.

I'm torn between the Thought Bottle and the Candle of Invocation.

The Candle of Invocation can lead to infinite Wish cheese by way of Efreeti.

The Thought Bottle can lead to infinite Wish cheese by way of restoring XP at whim. It can also be used to negate level loss, crafting costs, and anything else where you'd be spending XP. Plus it has other uses.

With the Thought Bottle, though, you have to be able to cast Wish to do infinite Wish abuse... with the Candle of Invocation, you just need the right type, and can be any level. I'd have to go with the Candle being more broken... but only just.

[Iku Rex]

you can shoot something 1km away. You can shoot up to ten times your range increment, which is 100ft. Unless I am mistaken, a kilometer is 1000ft... or is that meters? rats, ok maybe you are right about that one. .No "maybe". I am right. It's not hard to verify you know.

Calculating all of the numbers in combat doesn't show where this bow shines, it is not the bow to use in a long drawn out combat, but for out-of-combat trick shots, like the shoot the sacrificial knife out of the hands of the cultist you can only just see through the window of the castle from where you are standing in the courtyard, thereby saving the princess/whatever. Like I said, rarely useful. It's not like true strike is hard to come by. Every sorcerer and wizard has access to it if they want it. So do characters with use magic device. If it was such a game breaker I think someone would have noticed by now. I've played characters with true strike myself and didn't see much use.

(And you example isn't even possible by the RAW - disarm is melee only.)


I maintain that it is more useful than a wand, because a) you won't want to waste time on getting the wand out and putting it awayMinor issue, especially since you claim it will primarily be used out of combat.

Besides, a DM might let you attach the wand to a bow, or if you tie it to your belt or something you can drop it as a free action.

b) you will need a wizard, rogue or bard to use it,Yes, and the same applies to the bow. It's a spell trigger item.

c) again - unlimited charges. As long as you use it enough, it will be also be more economical than a wand.A wand has 50 charges. You're not going to see that many "have to shoot the dagger from the cultist's hand" situations.

And don't forget, a true strike from a wand can apply to any attack, with any bow or other weapon. The bow only works when you're using it to fire an arrow from that bow.

[Iku Rex]

The Thought Bottle can lead to infinite Wish cheese by way of restoring XP at whim. It can also be used to negate level loss, crafting costs, and anything else where you'd be spending XP. Plus it has other uses.That's assuming the DM lets you use XP "stored" in the bottle for other uses. If he does, explain to him how you've stored all your gold in a deep hole, and how that means that you can spend money without losing it.

Deep holes in the ground are broken!

[Suropej]

I'm scared of what this may bring upon me, but I don't see what's so amazing about the Candle of Invocation.

The caster level bonus applies only when you have the candle lit while preparing spells and that candle continues to burn. This means that you get less than 4 hours of increased spell potency, since that is the longest time the candle can burn for.

The wishes-by-efreeti trick only works for LE candles (the candles can only call creatures of that candle's alignment), and I were DMing, good characters using evil candles would end up changing alignment, especially if they were forcing a creature to grant them wishes for the heck of it. And after any gate is cast, the candle's burnt up so no other use.

The +2 morale bonus would be the best thing I see the candle as granting a cleric, if lit post-spell preparation time, and planned to be used for half a day of dungeon delving.

So time to get flamed, I suppose.

[Jack_Simth]

That's assuming the DM lets you use XP "stored" in the bottle for other uses. If he does, explain to him how you've stored all your gold in a deep hole, and how that means that you can spend money without losing it.

Deep holes in the ground are broken!
The issue being that the description of the bottle specifically states it can be used to restore you to the amount of XP you had when you invoked it in that manner, and that it lists the cost as the 1,000 xp to do the storage, not saying anything about draining you to 1st (which it would, if you lost all XP) or anything of that nature. It also cites restoring levels lost from resurrection magic.

I'm scared of what this may bring upon me, but I don't see what's so amazing about the Candle of Invocation.

The caster level bonus applies only when you have the candle lit while preparing spells and that candle continues to burn. This means that you get less than 4 hours of increased spell potency, since that is the longest time the candle can burn for.

The wishes-by-efreeti trick only works for LE candles (the candles can only call creatures of that candle's alignment), and I were DMing, good characters using evil candles would end up changing alignment, especially if they were forcing a creature to grant them wishes for the heck of it. And after any gate is cast, the candle's burnt up so no other use.
You're just missing the trick used is all.

See, the Efreeti's ability to grant wishes is spell-like. When you check the description of spell-like abilities, it's noted that they don't cost XP (although many methods of getting spell-like abilities, such as the Archmage option, override that). Making magic items is on the safe list, with no limit given; the only cost of a Magic item made by way of a Wish is the standard cost of Wish, plus a bit. This is spelled out in the XP cost section. Making a magic item is in the effect section, the extra costs for magic items is in the XP component section - and for Efreeti Wishes, the XP cost section doesn't apply.

So you Gate in an Efreeti, command it to grant you three wishes, and then make three wishes on the safe list. Two for whatever you like, one for another LE Candle of Invocation ... which you thereafter use to Gate in a different Efreeti to repeat the process. All perfectly by-the-book. Infinite wishes, for the cost of a single item... that doesn't include the Gate effect in it's pricing scheme. Seriously - a Candle of Invocation is less expensive than a scroll of Gate - and it's got more functions.

[Suropej]

So I see, thank you Jack_Smith.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Planar Ally Scroll for a Noble Djinni or Efreeti at 2,400 gp.

[Curmudgeon]

The caster level bonus applies only when you have the candle lit while preparing spells and that candle continues to burn. Which is perfectly adequate to prepare and cast long-duration buff spells, which is where I see this item as being useful. It's more expensive than just buying scrolls, but it adds flexibility when you're not close to a branch of Ye Olde Scroll Shoppe.

The wishes-by-efreeti trick only works for LE candles (the candles can only call creatures of that candle's alignment), and I were DMing, good characters using evil candles would end up changing alignment, especially if they were forcing a creature to grant them wishes for the heck of it. You don't need to mess with that alignment peril stuff if you have a Rogue in the party, because Use Magic Device will let them Emulate an Alignment. Remember, the Cleric boost and Gate call are separate functions of a Candle of Invocation. So your remedy only applies to those without UMD skill.

The way I, as DM, keep the Candle of Invocation from being abusive is that Efreeti only get their Wish 1/day, and the ones you call at random just happen to have already used up theirs for that particular day.

[Jack_Simth]

Planar Ally Scroll for a Noble Djinni or Efreeti at 2,400 gp.
There's a couple of reasons why that isn't nearly so abusive out of the box:

1) You have to pay them for the service, and negotiate for it. Might as well hire the Wish straight-up - you've just made it a bit easier to find a caster.
2) By RAW, the deity decides what you get - you don't select the servant, the deity sends you one. Sure, you want a Noble Djinni/Efreeti... but you could very well end up with a ghaele/bone devil.

[Iku Rex]

The issue being that the description of the bottle specifically states it can be used to restore you to the amount of XP you had when you invoked it in that manner, and that it lists the cost as the 1,000 xp to do the storage, not saying anything about draining you to 1st (which it would, if you lost all XP) or anything of that nature. It also cites restoring levels lost from resurrection magic.(The cost is 500 XP.)

You still have your XP, it's just stored somewhere else. If I put my money in a bank I don't become broke ("level 1"), but I can't use my money (without losing it) either.

And it doesn't just "also" cite restoring level loss. It fairly obvious from the context that the intended purpose of this use of the item is to restore level loss.

A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even restoration can’t undo (including levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user’s experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim.
Nowhere does it say that you can use stored XP for item creation or spells. The plain English RAW word "store" suggests you can't. You can argue that if your XP is stored away like that it can't be lost through level loss either, and clearly it can be, until you use the bottle. But then you're trying to convince the DM that the "free XP" interpretation is the more reasonable one. Which could be tricky.

[senrath]

-snip-
The way I, as DM, keep the Candle of Invocation from being abusive is that Efreeti only get their Wish 1/day, and the ones you call at random just happen to have already used up theirs for that particular day.

I keep it from being abusive by letting my players know that anything overly cheesy will get them wrathed. The guideline? Generally, if they have to ask, they shouldn't do it. Getting the three wishes, though, is (usually) fine, so long as they don't try and break the game with them. I also made it so that the only option of the "safe list" is the resurrection option, and moved everything else to a "safer list" which while won't usually be twisted still can be.

[JaxGaret]

Any Gated-in Efreeti should have just about a 50/50 chance of having used its Wish already that day.

Also, don't Efreeti try to screw you over with their Wishes? You have to be really careful about what you wish for with them.

[Jasdoif]

Nowhere does it say that you can use stored XP for item creation or spells.It doesn't say anywhere that you can't, either. And the description indicates quite specifically what it does: it restores your XP total to exactly what it was when it was stored. It makes no restriction on what caused the XP total to be reduced, nor does it make any special provision for deductions of XP components used in the interim.

That last part is significant. If you've used a lot of XP in spells or items, then are killed and raised...using the thought bottle would restore your XP total to what it was when you stored it. As intended. Which would you mean you get back all the XP you had used on those spells or items, because their consumption didn't influence what was "stored" in the thought bottle. So it most certainly can restore XP used for spells or items.

[Reinboom]

Thought bottle is an amusing item, as have been mentioned.

Who doesn't want to be a Shadow 10 / Monk 7 / Emancipated Spawn 3 / Adept 20 / Archivist 20 / Aristocrat 20 / Artificer 20 / Barbarian 20 / Bard 20 / Cleric 20 / Commoner 20 / Dread Necromancer 20 / Druid 20 / Expert 20 / Favored Soul 20 / Fighter 1220 / Healer 20 / Hexblade 20 / Incarnate 20 / Magewright 20 / Marshal 20 / Monk 20 / Mystic 20 / Ninja 20 / Noble 20 / Paladin 20 / Psion 20 / Psychic Rogue 20 / Psychic Warrior 20 / Ranger 20 / Rogue 20 / Samurai 20 / Scout 20 / Shaman 20 / Shugenja 20 / Sohei 20 / Sorcerer 20 / Soulborn 20 / Soulknife 20 / Spellthief 20 / Spirit Shaman 20 / Swashbuckler 20 / Totemist 20 / Warlock 20 / Warmage 20 / Warrior 20 / Wilder 20 / Wizard 20 / Wu Jen 20 (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-587945) ?

[Iku Rex]

It doesn't say anywhere that you can't, either.And the description indicates quite specifically what it does: it restores your XP total to exactly what it was when it was stored. The bottle restores your XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim. That does not "specifically indicate" that you can use stored XP without eh, using it.

It makes no restriction on what caused the XP total to be reduced, nor does it make any special provision for deductions of XP components used in the interim.Which is beside the point, since my argument is that you can't use the stored XP at all. (Unless the DM rules in your favor.)

[CASTLEMIKE]

There's a couple of reasons why that isn't nearly so abusive out of the box:

1) You have to pay them for the service, and negotiate for it. Might as well hire the Wish straight-up - you've just made it a bit easier to find a caster.
2) By RAW, the deity decides what you get - you don't select the servant, the deity sends you one. Sure, you want a Noble Djinni/Efreeti... but you could very well end up with a ghaele/bone devil.

All very valid points but I've never been able to acquire a Candle of Invocation in a real game (A Ring of Multiple Wishes once in a one shot has been memorable for years and some of the Relics and the Hand, the Eye and the Head of Vecna in another very memorable and almost a TPK as the players kept killing themselves) I have been able to acquire a scroll of Planar Ally in more than a single game and actually use it to summon a genie for a Wish to raise party members on several occassions.

[Jasdoif]

The bottle restores your XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim.Well yeah, restoring your XP to what it was would negate any levels lost since then. It's an emphatic point, not a restrictive one.


Which is beside the point, since my argument is that you can't use the stored XP at all. (Unless the DM rules in your favor.)...except you aren't using the "stored" XP for it, you're using the XP you "keep". All the thought bottle does is restore it to where it was.

But really, explain it to me some more: Are you suggesting that if you used a thought bottle to store XP, then died after casting a wish spell, you'd find 5,000 less XP in the thought bottle after you were raised? If so, why doesn't the item description indicate this? If not, why should you have to die to use the thought bottle to recover XP (and why doesn't the item description indicate this)?

[FlyMolo]

I don't understand the furor over the thought bottle. It potentially allows unlimited crafting for free, but that doesn't seem to be the issue here.

The Emancipated Spawn trick is clever, by the way.

[Talic]

Here's the concept. You're not using the stored xp.

Say you have 14,500, and are comfortably close to level 6. You got a thought bottle. You store your xp, costing you a bit, and that stored xp is 14,250.

You have 14,250, and you have 14,250 stored.

Now, you use 4,000 xp crafting items.

Now you have 10,250, and 14,250 stored. Note, you've used your current xp, which is in accordance with all rules for crafting items.

Now, you use the thought bottle. Your xp returns to 14,250. go out, kill something for 250xp, repeat.

[Jasdoif]

I don't understand the furor over the thought bottle. It potentially allows unlimited crafting for free, but that doesn't seem to be the issue here.Well, you could craft multiples of the other items mentioned here. Then there's wish spells, etc.

[Iku Rex]

Well yeah, restoring your XP to what it was would negate any levels lost since then. It's an emphatic point, not a restrictive one.It speaks to the intent behind the item.

...except you aren't using the "stored" XP for it, you're using the XP you "keep". All the thought bottle does is restore it to where it was.What "kept" XP? Your experience has been stored in the bottle.

.But really, explain it to me some more: Are you suggesting that if you used a thought bottle to store XP, then died after casting a wish spell, you'd find 5,000 less XP in the thought bottle after you were raised? How many times to I have to explain this simple concept? You can't cast wish unless you have XP available to spend. Your XP is not available - it has all been stored away in the bottle.

Like I said, the item description makes this more complicated than the "stored in a hole/bank vault" analogy, but in order to disregard the plain meaning of the word "store" you need to convince the DM that your interpretation makes more sense. And then we've abandoned the "rules as written" in favor of "intent" and "common sense" - the kiss of death for a game-breaking exploit.

[Aquillion]

The way I, as DM, keep the Candle of Invocation from being abusive is that Efreeti only get their Wish 1/day, and the ones you call at random just happen to have already used up theirs for that particular day.A simpler solution: Just say that you interpret the line in Gate that lets you summon a particular "kind" of creature to refer to a species (or broader). Since only noble djinns can grant wishes, and only 1% of djinns are noble, this makes it almost impossible to get a wish via gating.

This is fair; 'kind' isn't defined anywhere in the rules or spell description.

An even more severe nerfing of the candle can come out of this:
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process.That's sort of weird wording, isn't it ? It doesn't say that you can designate any creature of that alignment, it says that the respondent is of that alignment. You could interpret this to override the usual functioning of the gate spell, or to force the entire specification that the spell usually allows for -- in other words, when you use a candle, the only thing that you get to specify is that alignment, as dictated by the candle, and you have absolutely no other choice of what sort of creature happens to get gated in.

[GammaPaladin]

It speaks to the intent behind the item.
What "kept" XP? Your experience has been stored in the bottle.
How many times to I have to explain this simple concept? You can't cast wish unless you have XP available to spend. Your XP is not available - it has all been stored away in the bottle.

Like I said, the item description makes this more complicated than the "stored in a hole/bank vault" analogy, but in order to disregard the plain meaning of the word "store" you need to convince the DM that your interpretation makes more sense. And then we've abandoned the "rules as written" in favor of "intent" and "common sense" - the kiss of death for a game-breaking exploit.
You're arguing intent. RAW-wise, unless it explicitly states "You cannot use XP stored for the purposes of crafting or casting spells that require XP..." then you can. Intent is too subjective to really argue rationally, all that we can establish is what is RAW, and your interpretation is not RAW.

You can rule it that way when you are DMing of course. That's your prerogative. But you are making a houseruling.

[Iku Rex]

... in order to disregard the plain meaning of the word "store" you need to convince the DM that your interpretation makes more sense. And then we've abandoned the "rules as written" in favor of "intent" and "common sense" - the kiss of death for a game-breaking exploit.You're arguing intent. RAW-wise, unless it explicitly states "You cannot use XP stored for the purposes of crafting or casting spells that require XP..." then you can. Intent is too subjective to really argue rationally, all that we can establish is what is RAW, and your interpretation is not RAW.No, I am not just "arguing intent". The rules are written in English. RAW wise, unless it explicitly states "you can use something you've stored away without really using it" you can't.

In order to disregard the plain meaning of the word "store" you need to convince the DM that your interpretation makes more sense. And then we've abandoned the "rules as written" in favor of "intent" and "common sense".

[tyckspoon]

No, I am not just "arguing intent". The rules are written in English. RAW wise, unless it explicitly states "you can use something you've stored away without really using it" you can't.

In order to disregard the plain meaning of the word "store" you need to convince the DM that your interpretation makes more sense. And then we've abandoned the "rules as written" in favor of "intent" and "common sense".

Wait, so.. what exactly do you think is going on there? After you use the Thought Bottle, do you now have 0 xp because you put it all in the bottle? You'd think the item would mention that if so, considering it would slam you back to level 1. If not, you have the xp to craft with (or get drained away from you, or whatever else happens to you to make your xp total drop) and then you use the bottle again.. at which point this happens:


The bottle restores your XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored

Which seems to say fairly clearly that it covers XP losses from any source. If not, just craft until you lose a level. The bottle text says many times over that it works to recover lost levels and does not discriminate as to the cause of said loss.

[Iku Rex]

Wait, so.. what exactly do you think is going on there? After you use the Thought Bottle, do you now have 0 xp because you put it all in the bottle? You'd think the item would mention that if so, considering it would slam you back to level 1.
You still have your XP, it's just stored somewhere else. If I put my money in a bank I don't become broke ("level 1"), but I can't use my money (without losing it) either.Like I said ^


If not, you have the xp to craft with (or get drained away from you, or whatever else happens to you to make your xp total drop) and then you use the bottle again.. at which point this happens: So you feel that my interpretation doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit the perceived intent. Is that it?

Do you or do you not agree that in plain English, something that has been stored away is not available for immediate use?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Do you or do you not agree that in plain English, something that has been stored away is not available for immediate use?

It's a Thought Bottle. You store an XP total. That means you are storing a number, not XP.

If you store XP in the bottle, and then get hit with a negative level that reduces you XP, is the amount in the Thought Bottle lost? No.

Are you instantly slain because you don't have any levels to lose? No. You lose levels just as normal.

Where do those levels come from? Form you, because when you store an XP total in the bottle, you still have all your XP on you to Craft/cast Wish/or be level drained.

[Iku Rex]

It's a Thought Bottle. You store an XP total. That means you are storing a number, not XP.You store your experience. That means your XP. A few examples:

"a thought bottle can be used to store ... experience ..."
"When a user’s experience has been stored within the bottle ..."
"Storing experience in the bottle is difficult ...
"Only the creature that stored experience can retrieve it..."

In short, the item description proves you wrong.

If you store XP in the bottle, and then get hit with a negative level that reduces you XP, is the amount in the Thought Bottle lost? No.

Are you instantly slain because you don't have any levels to lose? No. You lose levels just as normal.

Where do those levels come from? My answer to the above would be that while the item description implies that you can "lose" XP from level loss, this is sort of a "virtual XP total" linked with the level loss. Just a number, if you will. It's a kind of flavor text to explain why the levels are restored.

What was that? "That's not exactly what it says!", people are shouting, frantically clutching their keyboards in righteous rules-lawyering fury!

Welcome to the world of "DM judgement calls". You just entered it by declaring that the description makes more sense if you pretend "store" is really supposed to mean "copy", for that one use of the item. Bye-bye clear and unambiguous RAW exploit.

[Roderick_BR]

OK, so I was flicking through my "Sword and Fist" guide to Fighters and Monks... page 76: 'Bow of True Arrows'.

At a market price of 4000gp, it has an unlimited amount of 'true strike' spells stored in it (count for arrows from the bow of true arrows only), which can be activated as a spell trigger like a wand (I assume that means a standard action).

Robin Hood eat your heart out?
The only catch, is that the bow, itself, has no magical bonuses. You'll either have to get a wizard or cleric to cast greater magical weapon on it, or convince your DM to let you enchant the bow as a normal weapon. Or buy enchanted arrows.
And really, 4000 for +20 on a hit? I think it *mighty* work well with ManyShot, I'm not sure. But one arrow a round is not that powerful. You'll only ensure you have a constant source of low damage.

[Jasdoif]

It speaks to the intent behind the item.
What "kept" XP? Your experience has been stored in the bottle.
How many times to I have to explain this simple concept? You can't cast wish unless you have XP available to spend. Your XP is not available - it has all been stored away in the bottle.Your XP is most certainly available. If it wasn't, you'd have to be level 1 after storing it.

To continue with the bank analogy, your funds are still available for use after you deposit them. It's the keystone of the modern banking system. The big flaw in the whole banking analogy though, is that "he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored."


Now, if you're claiming that the wording is ridiculously poor...hey, I agree completely. I'm pretty sure the thought bottle wasn't intended for such use, just like I'm confident that the candle of invocation wasn't intended for the string of wishes approach that's been mentioned. However, the way the two are written makes such use possible; and "requires DM intervention to prevent game breaking" is a testament to how overpowered the item itself is.

(Incidentally, I dislike the thought bottle--the thoughts and memories uses just don't strike me as right; even if the experience use is totally tightened down to only restore XP caused by death/negative levels it's still lessening the impact of death {get a true resurrection if you want level-loss-less raising, is my view}; and the spells use...well, OK, I guess that one isn't that bad.)