[spoilers] [game mechanics] O-chul torture question

[BiggusGeekus]

Spoilers and speculation ahoy!


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I checked for this on the first two pages though I might have missed it in one of the discussion threads or the longer threads. If there is a thread on this subject please direct me to it. Now then.....

Xykon keeps coming up with these torments for O-chul and Redcloak keeps healing O-chul back to health. This has been apparently going on for some time now. We only saw one "death trap" with the acid shark, but it looks like there have been many others.

What this means is that:
1) O-chul has been overcoming challenges, which for the purposes of this thread is the same as defeating them
2) He's doing it solo
3) The challenges looks like they might be higher than standard for his level even if he hypothetically had been in a group. For example, the acid shark torment was actually an acid trap and a shark encounter. That's two challenges which means if they were the same CR the EL would be that CR +2.

Basically it looks like Xykon is giving O-chul experience points hand over fist. And O-chul seems to be leveling up! #542 "I think he actually got a few inches closer to me this time..."

So how many levels do you think O-chul has gained, if any? Is he at the same point as the OotS?


Math ahead:

We know there were many of these encounters, but here are two we know about for sure

#542
The shark looks to be size huge CR 4 according to the SRD. We don't know how strong the acid is. If the shark is fiendish (red eyes) that makes it CR 6. If the shark is merely large it'd be CR2 and therefore CR4 as a fiendish shark, but then it also wouldn't have enough hit dice to gain damage resistance and O-chul could probably take it out unarmed (though that would still leave the acid). This means at least a EL 7 encounter, probably EL 8 and remember ELs are meant for four PCs, not one.

#543
"a dozen rabid dire weasels" . Each dire weasel is CR 2.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20010320b
... a dozen is EL 9. Again that's meant for four PCs and O-chul is doing this solo

And he might have gotten some roleplaying exp for his dealing with Redcloak on the castle wall.

[theinsulabot]

its possible, but its also entirely possible that any excess levels he is gaining are getting drained off by the assorted undead around

[hamishspence]

remember he gets Fort save vs level drain, and it seems he may have a pretty high CON, thus good chance of not losing said levels.

[theinsulabot]

remember he gets Fort save vs level drain, and it seems he may have a pretty high CON, thus good chance of not losing said levels.

to paraphrase something said before the big battle, it doesnt really matter if you have to roll a natural one to take damage (or lose a level) if there are more then 20 enemies. xykon's army has thousands of the undead, at the very least

edit: see here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html

same basic principle

[hamishspence]

Thousands of zombies, hundreds of ghouls, but how many wights or higher?

[theinsulabot]

Thousands of zombies, hundreds of ghouls, but how many wights or higher?


im gonna make a bet on more then 20

[Saihyol]

One would be enough given it has all day to succeed...

[TehJhu]

Thousands of zombies, hundreds of ghouls, but how many wights or higher?

I don't remember that resisting level drain once makes you immune to level drain.

So... couldn't one wight just poke him in the face over and over again?

[BiggusGeekus]

Do we know he's been level drained? Or is it possible that Xykon and Redcloak have overlooked this? Because Xykon doesn't always pay attention to this kind of thing, though at other times he does think pretty far ahead.

Also "level loss" is not the same as "negative levels"! Wights and most draining undead can't do true level loss. They can just hit with negative levels. Negative levels disappear after 24 hours. There are some cases where negative levels can lead to level loss, but those generally require another save.

Restoration is also on O-chull's spell list, so he could have conceivably leveled up enough to cast it and remove any negative levels right away (unlikely but possible) and he can definitely use any items that have it if fate puts them in his path.

[curtis]

Do we know he's been level drained? Or is it possible that Xykon and Redcloak have overlooked this? Because Xykon doesn't always pay attention to this kind of thing, though at other times he does think pretty far ahead.

Even if Xykon didn't overlook it, he may ignore it, because higher level=tougher challenges.

[David Argall]

O-Chul's level is whatever is story convenient. That will likely be a few levels below the party level since we want the party members to be doing most of the heroics.

[Laurentio]

Restoration is also on O-chull's spell list, so he could have conceivably leveled up enough to cast it and remove any negative levels right away (unlikely but possible) and he can definitely use any items that have it if fate puts them in his path.
O-Chul has a spell list? Does any paladin of the Azurite Guard have a spell list?

Actually I never seen any paladin casting a single spell, up to this moment.

Laurentio

[BiggusGeekus]

O-Chul has a spell list? Does any paladin of the Azurite Guard have a spell list?

Actually I never seen any paladin casting a single spell, up to this moment.

They lay on hands and have paladin mounts. So far there's been no mention that they are anything other than standard paladins and the strip is pretty good about informing us when a PC or NPC uses variant rules.

I'll poke around the strip and see if I can confirm any spell use.

But I think its safe to assume that they can do it and have the standard list.

[BiggusGeekus]

Even if Xykon didn't overlook it, he may ignore it, because higher level=tougher challenges.

I completely agree and Xykon even suggested as much to Roy right before the big plunge.

[Estelindis]

So far there's been no mention that they are anything other than standard paladins and the strip is pretty good about informing us when a PC or NPC uses variant rules.

I'll poke around the strip and see if I can confirm any spell use.

But I think its safe to assume that they can do it and have the standard list.

When describing Miko's off-screen battle with the OotS, Rich said she cast a Cure spell (I think it was CLW).

[BiggusGeekus]

I'm doing a search and looking for spellcasting by the paladins of the Sapphire Guard, but so far there isn't anything I can find that could not be explained by lay on hands or the paladin detect evil ability. That isn't saying a whole lot because I might have missed a few strips and the site is starting to get slow (ironically, I'm having a hard time loading strip #404). So there's still a lot more I have to go through.


Hmmm.
Miko uses potions to heal Windstriker
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html

Even still, it would take a 14th level paladin with an 18 wisdom to cast 4th level spells, or a 15th level paladin with a 14 wisdom. So its also possible that none of the Sapphire Guard have anything very exciting to cast other than cure light wounds.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, given what we see while Xykon's slaughtering them in the throne room, some are quite obviously multiclass clerics (or possibly wizards, though that's unlikely).

SoD: A Sapphire Guard member cast hold person on Redcloak's older brother during the attack on the ceremony where he was made an acolyte, which is, obviously, not on the paladin spell list.

[Chronos]

We also see some flying in various places, which suggests arcane spellcasting. Sorcerer/Paladin is more likely than Wizard/Paladin, though.

To Laurentio's question, it's standard for paladins to have spells, but not until they reach 4th level at least, and most of their spells aren't very impressive (they max out at 4th level spells, compared to the 9th level spells a high-level wizard or cleric can toss around). Most of the paladins we've seen were probably lower level than that, and even the higher level ones (like Miko, Hinjo, and O-Chul) will usually have better options available to them, which explains why we haven't seen any spellcasting from them.

[BiggusGeekus]

To Laurentio's question, it's standard for paladins to have spells, but not until they reach 4th level at least, and most of their spells aren't very impressive (they max out at 4th level spells, compared to the 9th level spells a high-level wizard or cleric can toss around). Most of the paladins we've seen were probably lower level than that, and even the higher level ones (like Miko, Hinjo, and O-Chul) will usually have better options available to them, which explains why we haven't seen any spellcasting from them.

And Miko had a few levels in monk, so her spellcasting would be delayed.

Heck, some of these paladins could have levels in barbarian! Going from chaotic to lawful would mean they lose the ability to rage, but they'd retain everything else. A 7th level barbarian has damage reduction which would tie in nicely with O-chul being "the toughest of us all".

Actually this brings up a point in my original post about Xykon indirectly aiding O-Chul's leveling. If O-chul does have levels in another class, he might not have his paladin mount yet. Do we ever see him summon one? Xykon might help O-Chul gain enough levels (5) to get his mount and O-Chul could choose one specifically to help himself escape!

Edit: Never mind. I've been corrected. O-chul apparently states that he was formerly a fighter.

[Chazzie]

O-chul? Gaining levels through his torture?

I'm sorry, but that just makes him even MORE badass. :smallbiggrin: He's quickly winning his way into my favorites!

[Holammer]

O-Chul has a spell list? Does any paladin of the Azurite Guard have a spell list?

Actually I never seen any paladin casting a single spell, up to this moment.

Laurentio

I'm pretty sure Hinja cast something on himself when he saved Belkar in strip 409. Probably Cure light/moderate Wounds. Whatever, leave that to the level geeks.