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Kizara
2008-04-18, 04:29 PM
Alright, I've heard tales of horror using this class. Basically builds that use a big creature and ways to massively buff strength to deal unreasonable amounts of damage.

So, I'm looking to edit the class to allow it to still be used as was intended but to prevent such abuse.


So, what I need from you all is:

1) Detailed description of what said abuse entails. Show me your IMBA hurler builds.

2) Suggestions on how to fix the class to keep it usable but reasonable.

UglyPanda
2008-04-18, 05:28 PM
It's broken because carrying capacity scales exponentially and boulder damage scales linearly. In other words, It's broken because of the two sets of rules that lets that class do anything.

Example Builds, with assumptions that round down:
Goliath Wu Jen 16/ Hulking Hurler 3 - Casts giant size to gain 32 STR and colossal size. Over 7000d6 damage.
Half-Ogre Barbarian 5 / War Hulk 9 / Hulking Hurler 3 - Rages, then throws for over 100d6 damage.
Centaur Cleric 10 / Barbarian 1 / Hulking Hurler 3 - Nightsticks not necessary. Uses righteous might and rages, then throws. Over 200d6 damage.

Edit: A few errors.
Side-note: For a player to a have a rock big enough to do major damage, they would have to melt down a bunch of iron pots for 20 lb of material per gp or have an NPC or fellow party member repeatedly cast wall of iron, which is a money-making scheme in its own right.

Kizara
2008-04-18, 05:34 PM
It's broken because carrying capacity scales exponentially and boulder damage scales linearly. In other words, It's broken because of the two sets of rules that lets that class do anything.

Example Builds, with assumptions that round down:
Goliath Wu Jen 16/ Hulking Hurler 3 - Casts giant size to gain 32 STR and colossal size. Over 6000d6 damage.
Half-Ogre Barbarian 5 / War Hulk 9 / Hulking Hurler 3 - Rages, then throws for over 100d6 damage.
Centaur Cleric 10 / Barbarian 1 / Hulking Hurler 3 - Nightsticks not necessary. Uses righteous might and rages, then throws. Over 100d6 damage.

Thanks for the info.

Would you mind showing your work at how you arrived at those values?

I'm thinking there needs to be both a cap and a change in the way it scales, which would require changing the base rules. I'm open to suggestions.

Alleine
2008-04-18, 05:44 PM
In CW there is a damage table in the back for thrown objects that is based entirely on weight. I believe its something along the lines of 200 lbs. = 1d6.

The thread can be found here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142565

A good way to stop abuse would be to put a cap on the actual size of the object they throw. Theoretically, if you have enough carry capacity, you can pick up a moon-sized rock and play catch with it.

senrath
2008-04-18, 05:47 PM
In CW there is a damage table in the back for thrown objects that is based entirely on weight. I believe its something along the lines of 200 lbs. = 1d6.

The thread can be found here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142565

A good way to stop abuse would be to put a cap on the actual size of the object they throw. Theoretically, if you have enough carry capacity, you can pick up a moon-sized rock and play catch with it.

You could also pick up a fragment of a white dwarf star, which has a density between 10^4 g/cm3 and 10^9 g/cm3, or some other super dense material and that would pretty much bypass any size cap.

Douglas
2008-04-18, 05:55 PM
There is exactly one thing that needs to be done to fix the Hulking Hurler: make it scale with your strength, not with your carrying capacity. How fast it scales with strength is a matter of fine tuning, the really important thing is to get rid of the exponential scaling.

Alleine
2008-04-18, 06:10 PM
You could also pick up a fragment of a white dwarf star, which has a density between 10^4 g/cm3 and 10^9 g/cm3, or some other super dense material and that would pretty much bypass any size cap.

A white dwarf? They might have trouble getting it, and then surviving long enough to throw it.
In the thread all I ever saw them use was Iridium or palladium, I think. They were keeping it partially sane.

UglyPanda
2008-04-18, 06:11 PM
I agree with Douglas. Also, changing the maximum size doesn't do much because of how dense some cheap materials already are. A ten-ton ball of iron can fit in a five-foot square.

senrath
2008-04-18, 06:19 PM
A white dwarf? They might have trouble getting it, and then surviving long enough to throw it.
In the thread all I ever saw them use was Iridium or palladium, I think. They were keeping it partially sane.

White dwarf was the first thing that came to mind when I thought of super dense materials. And note I did say "or some other super dense material". Besides, it's all theoretical. And I'm pretty sure there is some combination of things in DnD that would allow you to get, and throw, even a small portion of a white dwarf.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-18, 06:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the only fix needed for the Hulking Hurler is to look your player in the eye and say, "So that rock you picked up ways 200lbs and when you said 2000 you were joking, right."

Seriously, do you play with a bunch of crazy people who want nothing but to destroy the game? No? No problem.

Kizara
2008-04-18, 06:50 PM
I'm pretty sure the only fix needed for the Hulking Hurler is to look your player in the eye and say, "So that rock you picked up ways 200lbs and when you said 2000 you were joking, right."

Seriously, do you play with a bunch of crazy people who want nothing but to destroy the game? No? No problem.

No, but I would like to use the class for large creatures as challanging adversaries. Thus, I need it to be reasonable. I'll have a look and see if I can't rework it to scale with strength directly instead of carrying ability.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-18, 06:52 PM
The problem is that the class is fairly easy to break. You should be boosting Str. as much as possible anyways, so if you are large or huge, you can throw a massive amount without being an uber-optimizer.

Also, has anyone tried combining this with Bloodstorm Blade? That seems like it would break fairly easily.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-18, 07:12 PM
Where are they finding these humongous rocks to throw around, though? Breaking off a 10,000,000-ton mountain (or cliff, or tiny fragment of mountain; I'm not an expert in weights on the geological scale) is quite a lot harder than lifting a 10,000,000-ton rock.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-18, 07:17 PM
Where are they finding these humongous rocks to throw around, though? Breaking off a 10,000,000-ton mountain (or cliff, or tiny fragment of mountain; I'm not an expert in weights on the geological scale) is quite a lot harder than lifting a 10,000,000-ton rock.

Rocks are pretty unwieldy. The real damage dealers use iron balls or other dense materials.

Jasdoif
2008-04-18, 07:20 PM
I would suggest fixing the underlying rule for damage-by-weight on improvised weapons.

Instead of every 200 pounds adding 1d6 damage, I'd make it every doubling of the previous weight limit. This does match the last few entries given in the table better (up to 50 pounds does 2d6, up to 100 does 3d6, up to 200 does 4d6, up to 400 does 5d6). This also more closely matches the Strength-to-Carry-Capacity rate (+10 Strength quadruples the load limits)

So it'd be like....
{table=head]Weight|Current|Proposed
800|7d6|6d6
1600|11d6|7d6
3200|19d6|8d6
6400|35d6|9d6
12800|67d6|10d6
25600|131d6|11d6
51200|259d6|12d6
102400|515d6|13d6[/table]

senrath
2008-04-18, 07:26 PM
I don't particularly like that idea. Think about it, your table is basically saying that while the first 800 lbs can do 6d6 points of damage, adding on a second 800 would only do 1d6 more? Basic physics states that with twice the mass it would have twice the force.

Jasdoif
2008-04-18, 07:31 PM
I don't particularly like that idea. Think about it, your table is basically saying that while the first 800 lbs can do 6d6 points of damage, adding on a second 800 would only do 1d6 more? Basic physics states that with twice the mass it would have twice the force.Twice the mass with the same velocity would have twice the force, sure. But there's no indication of that. And mithral weapons don't deal half damage when they're thrown, despite being half the weight; so there's precedent that simple mass-based multiplication isn't in effect here.

And then there's the general "D&D physics" stuff, but let's not go there :smalltongue:

UserClone
2008-04-18, 07:42 PM
I think it's pretty obvious - falling damage caps out at 20d6, and since falling onto a big boulder is (very roughly mind you) equivalent to getting it chucked laterally at you, so why not cap the damage at a sane 20d6?

senrath
2008-04-18, 07:55 PM
I think it's pretty obvious - falling damage caps out at 20d6, and since falling onto a big boulder is (very roughly mind you) equivalent to getting it chucked laterally at you, so why not cap the damage at a sane 20d6?

Because falling damage caps due to a simplification of terminal velocity. When something is thrown, it can exceed terminal velocity (until friction or other forms of resistance slow it back down).

Chronos
2008-04-18, 08:49 PM
When something is thrown, it can exceed terminal velocityAnd even if it does slow down to terminal velocity, terminal velocity for a boulder is a lot higher than terminal velocity for a person.

Alleine
2008-04-18, 09:27 PM
As nice as it is to carry around these massive pieces of whatever, thats most likely going to be the maximum medium weight they can carry. Anything else will throw them into heavy and they'll take some nasty penalties. If that still doesn't bother them, then carrying a 10 ft diameter sphere of lead ought to prove hard to bring on every adventure.


I really should have thought about saying anything about size. I completely forgot the hurler I constructed that carried its sphere inside a portable hole. :smallsigh: Never actually used it, but rolling all ones would've still killed most creatures.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-18, 10:12 PM
I don't particularly like that idea. Think about it, your table is basically saying that while the first 800 lbs can do 6d6 points of damage, adding on a second 800 would only do 1d6 more? Basic physics states that with twice the mass it would have twice the force.

What the heck does that have to do with damage in D&D? Damage is in no way related to force.

Basic physics probably also states that if you throw a 1-ton rock at a human being, the human being dies upon being hit. (Well, in a roundabout way. I imagine little research has been done around this.) Doesn't work in D&D, though.

It's all an abstraction. A 20th-level character can survive a fall of any distance, generally, without any sort of help. Why shouldn't they survive having a mountain thrown at them? They're superheroes.

FMArthur
2008-04-18, 10:24 PM
Because falling at high speed to the ground is not nearly equivalent to the ground falling at high speed to you.

Suropej
2008-04-18, 10:30 PM
As nice as it is to carry around these massive pieces of whatever, thats most likely going to be the maximum medium weight they can carry. Anything else will throw them into heavy and they'll take some nasty penalties. If that still doesn't bother them, then carrying a 10 ft diameter sphere of lead ought to prove hard to bring on every adventure.


I like that lead ball idea. Sure you can beat opponents to goo with it, but then you slowly die from lead poisoning due to repeated exposure. And lead doesn't go away, it'll always be there.... waiting for it's moment to strike you down!

senrath
2008-04-19, 09:04 AM
I like that lead ball idea. Sure you can beat opponents to goo with it, but then you slowly die from lead poisoning due to repeated exposure. And lead doesn't go away, it'll always be there.... waiting for it's moment to strike you down!

Easy fix to that. Wear gloves. As for where to carry it? They'll figure something out.

UglyPanda
2008-04-19, 09:27 AM
I like that lead ball idea. Sure you can beat opponents to goo with it, but then you slowly die from lead poisoning due to repeated exposure. And lead doesn't go away, it'll always be there.... waiting for it's moment to strike you down!

Dude, lead poisoning comes from ingestion, not casual contact. It's just grasping at straws if you do that to a player. Also, remove disease is a third level spell and restoration is a fourth level spell, so yeah...it doesn't solve anything.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-19, 09:32 PM
How about this for a fix:

Negate the weight for damage ratio. Call any improvised thrown weapon (for a Medium sized creature) 1d6 for a one-haned thrown object, or 2d6 for a two-handed object. Reguardless of what it is. That's what the PrC that specializes in improvised weapons did. Allow them to consider an object hurled with both hands to be a two-handed weapon with regards to str multiplier to damage being 1.5. That way you get more damage from higher strength, but none of this obscene exponential stuff.

thorgrim29
2008-04-19, 09:37 PM
In one of our most wacky game we had an entire country based on feather fall and hulking hurlers..... basically, you start with and ultra big hulking hurler (or a catapult), when you reach the height of your curve, you throw the other guy, then activate your feather fall, repeat a couple of times, have fun.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 09:44 PM
You could also pick up a fragment of a white dwarf star, which has a density between 10^4 g/cm3 and 10^9 g/cm3, or some other super dense material and that would pretty much bypass any size cap.

Would I discover Pym particles afterwards?

senrath
2008-04-19, 10:00 PM
Would I discover Pym particles afterwards?

Why the heck would you discover Pym particles? I fail to see the correlation between white dwarf stars and Dr. Pym.

Mephisto
2008-04-19, 10:21 PM
How about this for a fix:

Negate the weight for damage ratio. Call any improvised thrown weapon (for a Medium sized creature) 1d6 for a one-haned thrown object, or 2d6 for a two-handed object. Reguardless of what it is. That's what the PrC that specializes in improvised weapons did. Allow them to consider an object hurled with both hands to be a two-handed weapon with regards to str multiplier to damage being 1.5. That way you get more damage from higher strength, but none of this obscene exponential stuff.

That makes far less sense than the existing rules (which is saying something, since the existing rules make being hit by a 200 lb. shotput equivalent to being hit with a stick)

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-19, 10:39 PM
That makes far less sense than the existing rules (which is saying something, since the existing rules make being hit by a 200 lb. shotput equivalent to being hit with a stick)

And why do you say this? Quite bluntly, it seems an ideal fix to me. It will nerf the Hulking Hurler abuse without changing any components of any non-hulking-hurler-abuse in the slightest.

Just define the damage an improvised thrown object does, based on a medium sized creature, and let size modifiers (based on the *thrower*, not on the object) and Str modifiers reflect the additional damage a 200 lb shotput would do over a stick. And reasonabally, depending on the stick, you could easily do the same damage with either one. Ever seen videos of an egg digging holes through oak trees in a tornado? A shotput would kill you by mass, a stick would kill you by impalement. You're dead either way, so effectively the same damage.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 10:40 PM
Yeah, improvised weapon rules make no sense.

Also, large weapons, when thrown, deal their weapon damage +- strength. Right? So somebody check the weight of a Colossal greatsword (and the damage thereof) against the actual weapon damage. Bet you a dollar they aren't the same.

So a weapon thrown as a weapon deals different damage to a weapon thrown as an object?

And who needs lead spheres? Just tape together vials of acid. :smallbiggrin:

UglyPanda
2008-04-19, 11:37 PM
Would I discover Pym particles afterwards?

Why the heck would you discover Pym particles? I fail to see the correlation between white dwarf stars and Dr. Pym.

You're confusing Marvel's Hank Pym (Yellowjacket, Giant-Man, Ant-Man, etc.) with DC's The Atom. The Atom used a piece of a white dwarf to help create his size-shifting belt in a scene where the writer clearly did not do the research on how heavy it should have been.

senrath
2008-04-19, 11:40 PM
You're confusing Marvel's Hank Pym (Yellowjacket, Giant-Man, Ant-Man, etc.) with DC's The Atom. The Atom used a piece of a white dwarf to help create his size-shifting belt in a scene where the writer clearly did not do the research on how heavy it should have been.

Which is why I was confused. White dwarf was the material that came to mind because I had just been rereading my dad's old DC comics.

Jayabalard
2008-04-19, 11:58 PM
I don't particularly like that idea. Think about it, your table is basically saying that while the first 800 lbs can do 6d6 points of damage, adding on a second 800 would only do 1d6 more? Basic physics states that with twice the mass it would have twice the force.That's not really valid reasoning. The person throwing the object can impart some arbitrary amount of Force F, and that's the amount of force that it will hit it's target with (minus loss due to friction). At that point, it really doesn't matter all that much what the object actually weighs, it's going to hit with about the same force and do about the same damage to whatever it hits.

Basically, it seems like it would be best to dump the "damage by weight" table and work out something that you feel is a balanced "damage by strength" table.


Theoretically, if you have enough carry capacity, you can pick up a moon-sized rock and play catch with it.I think that generally they play B'tduz, not catch. Playing catch kind of defeats the purpose.

senrath
2008-04-20, 12:07 AM
That's not really valid reasoning. The person throwing the object can impart some arbitrary amount of Force F, and that's the amount of force that it will hit it's target with (minus loss due to friction). At that point, it really doesn't matter all that much what the object actually weighs, it's going to hit with about the same force and do about the same damage to whatever it hits.

Basically, it seems like it would be best to dump the "damage by weight" table and work out something that you feel is a balanced "damage by strength" table.

I think that generally they play B'tduz, not catch. Playing catch kind of defeats the purpose.

Yeah, you're right. My brain was kinda stuck in the "drop things on them" mode, since I was planning a dungeon for my group that included a few falling rocks.

Collin152
2008-04-20, 12:33 AM
You're confusing Marvel's Hank Pym (Yellowjacket, Giant-Man, Ant-Man, etc.) with DC's The Atom. The Atom used a piece of a white dwarf to help create his size-shifting belt in a scene where the writer clearly did not do the research on how heavy it should have been.

The correct response would have been to refrence yet another shrinking character.
Obviously humour has become too predictable.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-20, 08:38 AM
Yeah, improvised weapon rules make no sense.

Also, large weapons, when thrown, deal their weapon damage +- strength. Right? So somebody check the weight of a Colossal greatsword (and the damage thereof) against the actual weapon damage. Bet you a dollar they aren't the same.

So a weapon thrown as a weapon deals different damage to a weapon thrown as an object?

And who needs lead spheres? Just tape together vials of acid. :smallbiggrin:

Large weapons generally cannot BE thrown. Their range increment is "-", which is to say, not possible, unless you get something like Throw Anything, or a magical enchantment Throwing. So of course, a sword enchanted to be able to be thrown will do different damage than one simply being hurled, and likely ending up hilt-first.

Furthermore, using the Hulking Hurler rules will end up with a damage different from the actual damage anyways, since it's based on weight.

Also, there is already a 'damage by strength' factor in D&D. Strength modifier to damage.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-04-20, 09:12 AM
White dwarf was the first thing that came to mind when I thought of super dense materials. And note I did say "or some other super dense material". Besides, it's all theoretical. And I'm pretty sure there is some combination of things in DnD that would allow you to get, and throw, even a small portion of a white dwarf.

research a spell that requires a bit of white dwarf as a focus. Since white dwarf stars do not have a market price, you can get an infinite amount from a spell component pouch.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-04-20, 09:56 AM
What's all this Terminal Velocity talk about? Since when did something heavy have to be moving at terminal velocity to do more damage than a light thing? Sure, a penny dropped from the upper atmosphere can kill you if it hits you, but drop a safe from 2 inches above your head and you'll die just as easy. (Repeat for a car, truck, steamroller, oil tanker...) Or am I just blowing smoke here?


Also, don't forget to add spikes or the like to your iridium throwing ball. That way it does double damage, or something like that.

senrath
2008-04-20, 11:32 AM
What's all this Terminal Velocity talk about? Since when did something heavy have to be moving at terminal velocity to do more damage than a light thing? Sure, a penny dropped from the upper atmosphere can kill you if it hits you, but drop a safe from 2 inches above your head and you'll die just as easy. (Repeat for a car, truck, steamroller, oil tanker...) Or am I just blowing smoke here?


Also, don't forget to add spikes or the like to your iridium throwing ball. That way it does double damage, or something like that.
The terminal velocity talk was because someone suggested capping damage at 20d6 since that's max falling damage.

And a penny dropped from the upper atmosphere wouldn't kill you. If you somehow managed to get hit, it would hurt, but wouldn't do any lasting harm.

Kizara
2008-04-20, 11:52 AM
The terminal velocity talk was because someone suggested capping damage at 20d6 since that's max falling damage.

And a penny dropped from the upper atmosphere wouldn't kill you. If you somehow managed to get hit, it would hurt, but wouldn't do any lasting harm.

Mythbusters ftw!

Saihyol
2008-04-20, 12:14 PM
Max the damage.

Maximum damage from thrown objects is XXd6+Str Bonus (I leave the actual max to be determined by you).

Logic:

a) If big the item knocks you (painfully) out of the way and the rest of the damage is done to the planet when it lands
b) If small rips/smashes through wherever it hits you and does the rest of the damage to the planet when it lands
c) I'm the DM and while I'm going to let you have the dramatic ability to throw mountains around because it looks good, you're not going to be able to destroy absolutely anything by doing so.

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-20, 12:55 PM
How's this for a fix?

While carrying capacity continues to increase exponentially, you can only throw objects on a linear size increasing scale. It's a bit weird I know, but it's probably more balanced.

Not that the idea of throwing a mountain at something doesn't hold appeal to me.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 01:47 PM
So of course, a sword enchanted to be able to be thrown will do different damage than one simply being hurled, and likely ending up hilt-first.The problem is that the hurled sword that probably ends up hitting hilt-first actually ends up doing more damage than the properly-thrown (via feat or weapon property) sword that hits blade-first.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-20, 07:06 PM
The problem is that the hurled sword that probably ends up hitting hilt-first actually ends up doing more damage than the properly-thrown (via feat or weapon property) sword that hits blade-first.

If one is skilled at throwing objects, he can compenesate for the lack of both magic and balance. If nothing else, he could hurl the sword like a spear.

The point I am driving at is that by defining the damage a weapon does, it leave zero wiggle room for munchkins to fiddle with. This alone makes it vastly preferable to any sort of sliding-scale damage based on anything which a rules-lawyer can easily increase.

Jasdoif
2008-04-20, 09:25 PM
Large weapons generally cannot BE thrown. Their range increment is "-", which is to say, not possible, unless you get something like Throw Anything, or a magical enchantment Throwing.Actually, you don't need any special ability to be able to throw a melee weapon like that.


It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.