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Pelfaid
2008-04-18, 11:59 PM
Just a quick question. Is the Tendriculos usually considered as an under CR'd monster? Ran it tonight against a part of 6 lvl 6 PC's, killed one and almost got another. So I am kinda curious.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 12:02 AM
Just a quick question. Is the Tendriculos usually considered as an under CR'd monster? Ran it tonight against a part of 6 lvl 6 PC's, killed one and almost got another. So I am kinda curious.

Hydra. Hydras are special because they're either too weak or too strong. The variable is the presence or absence of improved sunder in the party.

tyckspoon
2008-04-19, 12:09 AM
mm. A little bit, yeah. It's something you're probably supposed to see from a good distance away and either fill it with arrows or never get close enough to fight it. It's cruel if you get close enough for it to start grappling you (most grappling monsters are); that +23 check is insane for a level 6 character. Bad AC, but decent HP and regeneration. The paralyzation is just topping it off, really.

Keld Denar
2008-04-19, 01:03 AM
Most plant type monsters are best if you can combine them with some kind of environmental hazard. A tendriculous in the middle of an open field in broad daylight wouldn't be much of a challenge, but one planted right next to the secret door leading into the wizards sanctum at the top of a muddy hill that is difficult to scale provides a natural place for one to shine. The difficult climb helps to naturally split the party out a bit, while the doorway provides a natural choke point as well as a reason to approach the plant, rather than just walking around it (plants don't move, unless they are Treants!).

So yea, depending on the circumstances, they can be either very overpowered or a non-challenge, depending on how they are presented. Don't forget to adjust the EL for unfavorable conditions. If the party does successfully defeat a well set up Tendricuous, reward them appropriately.

drengnikrafe
2008-04-19, 01:20 AM
A lot of monsters (I think) are considered to have too high of a CR because the DMs play them wrong.
Some monsters aren't given their CR because of sheer power, but rather because of a special ability they're given. When the DM ignores this special power, or uses it poorly, the CR feels to low because the creature isn't acting how it could.
I'm not really sure if it fully relates to the case at hand, but I did read that somewhere, so... yeah.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 01:27 AM
A lot of monsters (I think) are considered to have too high of a CR because the DMs play them wrong.
Some monsters aren't given their CR because of sheer power, but rather because of a special ability they're given. When the DM ignores this special power, or uses it poorly, the CR feels to low because the creature isn't acting how it could.
I'm not really sure if it fully relates to the case at hand, but I did read that somewhere, so... yeah.

Like, stealthy monsters such as darkmantles alone in a field in broad daylight with no cover.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 02:03 AM
Hydra. Hydras are special because they're either too weak or too strong. The variable is the presence or absence of improved sunder in the party.

Attempting to Sunder the heads is in most cases going to hurt you more then it helps.

The real variable is the presence of a competent caster.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-19, 09:32 AM
A lot of monsters (I think) are considered to have too high of a CR because the DMs play them wrong.
Some monsters aren't given their CR because of sheer power, but rather because of a special ability they're given. When the DM ignores this special power, or uses it poorly, the CR feels to low because the creature isn't acting how it could.

I think you got your lows and highs mixed up.

OP:

Grappling monsters are crazy.

That said, I don't see how killing one PC and almost killing another is too high a CR. "CR = party level" encounters should be challenging, which means there is a risk of death. (Even though technically your party level was 7, what with the two extras.)

It's a slow, high-damage-dealing monster. If the PCs choose to engage it in melee, they're making a really bad tactical decision that will cost them heavily. Seems perfectly appropriate. (And the regeneration bypassed by bludgeoning weapons should be nigh-insignificant. Is there actually a melee adventurer who doesn't carry one bludgeoning weapon and one dagger, in addition to whatever else they're armed with?)

Maybe they've learned not to blithely engage Huge creatures in melee, now?

Eldariel
2008-04-19, 10:49 AM
The Ragewalker from MM3. While CR 14 should be tough, the abilities are insane. DC 28 (on level 14!) save-or-LOSE HARD (attack allies) aura (in other words, no action), 50' movement, insane Hide and Move Silently, quickened battlefield control-spells, SR 26 (in games without Assay Resistance, that's pretty strong for level 14), projectile immunity, high initiative and decent HP + DR 10/cold iron and Fast Healing 5. The Weapon Cloud is pretty trivial, but still a way to finish off any fallen foes.

If you face one underground in tunnels where flying isn't possible and dimensional travel is blocked (the environment we faced it at) and it can hide, it can just walk through the party the surprise round throwing most into frenzy and toss the rest with a Blade Barrier. Then, it has a good chance of winning the initiative and it can do that again plus either attack or cast another spell. And it has a 20' reach + Combat Reflexes (a total of 8 AoOs). The only reason it didn't just kill off our party is that the Cleric got lucky with Destruction. Of course, it's relatively ineffective against CoDzilla due to their Will-saves (level 10, which is the earliest level when you're expected to beat one of those, would see them with about 7+7+4 Will for +18), but it's still at least one save per turn, and by the wording of the ability, the ragewalker can pass by you many times a turn forcing multiple saves.

Chronos
2008-04-19, 11:11 AM
That said, I don't see how killing one PC and almost killing another is too high a CR. "CR = party level" encounters should be challenging, which means there is a risk of death. (Even though technically your party level was 7, what with the two extras.)Eh, there's risk of death, and then there's risk of death. CR equal to the party's level is supposed to be the sort of thing that you can do four times a day, every day, for your entire career. Something that kills one party member and almost kills another does not fall into that category.

That said, it's quite possible that the party fought poorly (which is their own fault, and a learning experience), or that the monster was in an environment which especially favored it (which should increase the CR).

Did the party know the monster was there before closing with it? And did anyone in the party have the Knowledge (Nature) checks to have an idea of its capabilities? If they started off at some distance, they should have been able to wear it down by just keeping their distance and pelting it with sling stones, with no expenditure of resources at all. Or there's a number of ways they could have incapacitated it with spells, if they needed to deal with it more quickly.


(plants don't move, unless they are Treants!)Or unless they're Tendriculoses, or Assassin Vines, or Violet Fungi, or several other plant monsters. They have a move speed of 20': Admittedly on the slow side, but they're not rooted to the spot like regular plants.

drengnikrafe
2008-04-19, 11:23 AM
My DM always taught me that a CR = to the party's level should take up about 20% of the party's resources. I learned this when I was talking to him about something I had read or seen somewhere...

Me: I i was [doing whatever activity in which I found out about this encounter, I don't remember], and a dragon came out and ate the cleric! They should've leveled up if it was strong enough to just kill the cleric that fast.
DM: Well, a good encounter takes up 20% of the party's resources.
Me: But it killed the Cleric! That's not fair!
DM: How many party members were there?
Me: Uhh... 5.
DM: Well, that's 20% of the party.

I couldn't argue with that logic.

Of course, that's just what I heard, so I'm not totally sure of how well the system works. Although, it does kind of fit into Chronos' description. If you play it properly, then at the end of the day (4 encounters) you have only about 1/5th of your spells left, and a lot of missing HP, so you call it a day.

This begs the following question: Was the party at full strength (or very close to it) when you sicked the Tendriculos on them?

Vortling
2008-04-19, 11:36 AM
My DM always taught me that a CR = to the party's level should take up about 20% of the party's resources. I learned this when I was talking to him about something I had read or seen somewhere...

Me: I i was [doing whatever activity in which I found out about this encounter, I don't remember], and a dragon came out and ate the cleric! They should've leveled up if it was strong enough to just kill the cleric that fast.
DM: Well, a good encounter takes up 20% of the party's resources.
Me: But it killed the Cleric! That's not fair!
DM: How many party members were there?
Me: Uhh... 5.
DM: Well, that's 20% of the party.

I couldn't argue with that logic.



By that logic, the difficulty of the same CR rating should decrease over the course of the day. After all if you lose an entire character you can't count that into your "resources".

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 12:18 PM
My DM always taught me that a CR = to the party's level should take up about 20% of the party's resources. I learned this when I was talking to him about something I had read or seen somewhere...

Me: I i was [doing whatever activity in which I found out about this encounter, I don't remember], and a dragon came out and ate the cleric! They should've leveled up if it was strong enough to just kill the cleric that fast.
DM: Well, a good encounter takes up 20% of the party's resources.
Me: But it killed the Cleric! That's not fair!
DM: How many party members were there?
Me: Uhh... 5.
DM: Well, that's 20% of the party.

Which is fine, but unless the Dragon died off choking on the cleric, they are going to use more resources in the battle against it. And it will probably just kill another PC a round. So that's decidedly not 20% of the parties resources.

Pelfaid
2008-04-19, 12:27 PM
Well for some reason the dwarf fighter had forgotten she was not at full hit points but she was the only one not at full health. And after three low rolls, by the cleric of Obad-Hai, the bard and the druid, all the party knew was its name so they rushed on in to whale on it. Dwarf fighter got swallowed, paralyzed and just sat there taking acid damage. They started running then, but the poor gnomish warmage just was too slow and he got eaten as well. Ironically though it was the gnome who lived.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-19, 12:46 PM
Doesn't sound like it was a matter of the tendriculous being too powerfull at all. The PCs just fought badly and had bad luck.

Like I said, engaging that opponent in melee is clearly the wrong choice. (And if they rout instead of making an orderly retreat, of course they're going to suffer more casualties.)

Chronos
2008-04-19, 01:17 PM
Yikes, three characters with Knowledge (Nature), and all of them failed their checks? Yeah, that's just bad luck. It happens. I'll give your players the benefit of the doubt that if they had known what they were dealing with, they would have done better. Though the martial types should at least have been able to say "Wow, it looks like that thing is pretty good at grabbing folks, but it doesn't seem to move too quickly".

GoC
2008-04-19, 03:59 PM
My DM always taught me that a CR = to the party's level should take up about 20% of the party's resources. I learned this when I was talking to him about something I had read or seen somewhere...

Me: I i was [doing whatever activity in which I found out about this encounter, I don't remember], and a dragon came out and ate the cleric! They should've leveled up if it was strong enough to just kill the cleric that fast.
DM: Well, a good encounter takes up 20% of the party's resources.
Me: But it killed the Cleric! That's not fair!
DM: How many party members were there?
Me: Uhh... 5.
DM: Well, that's 20% of the party.

I couldn't argue with that logic.

Of course, that's just what I heard, so I'm not totally sure of how well the system works. Although, it does kind of fit into Chronos' description. If you play it properly, then at the end of the day (4 encounters) you have only about 1/5th of your spells left, and a lot of missing HP, so you call it a day.

This begs the following question: Was the party at full strength (or very close to it) when you sicked the Tendriculos on them?

Well losing one party per encounter means that you'll have at least 100 different characters in a level 1-10 games. That's might get a bit hard to keep track off...