PDA

View Full Version : Statting the Ring: Fellowship Geekery



Lupy
2008-04-19, 04:54 PM
Okay, so I love Tolkien, and am currently re-reading LotR, and I was wondering... What are the Character's Stats, I'm thinking levels and abilities, but further geeker is encouraged.


RotK Spoiler
I'm statting for just after the ring was destroyed.
I'm doing abilities in this order:
DEX
STR
CON
INT
WIS
CHA

Frodo- 4th Aristocrat, 2nd Ranger,
12, 9, 14, 15, 14, 11
Sam- 1st level commoner, 2nd level ranger, 1st level fighter
12, 10, 15, 10, 15, 8
Legolas- 7th level fighter, 4th level ranger
19, 13, 16, 13, 13, 12
Gimli- 11th level fighter
8, 17, 17, 12, 14, 9
Aragorn- 4th level fighter, 11th level ranger
14, 16, 18, 13, 15, 14
Merry- 2nd level aristocrat, 2nd level fighter
13, 9, 12, 13, 10, 12
Pippin- 2nd level aristocrat, 2nd level fighter
13, 9, 12, 13, 10, 12
Gandalf- 0th or 1st level diety
Maia, and so unknown
Boromir- (Deceased) 9th level fighter
13, 16, 16, 10, 9, 10

Faramir- 11th level ranger
17, 13, 17, 13, 15, 12

And just cuz he's awesome:
Turin: 14th fighter, 6th ranger, 2nd rouge
20, 22, 21, 14, 14, 12

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 04:57 PM
Gandalf is messed up. Epic levels, DR 0, and only 18s topped out?

Don't make me laugh. He doesn't seem that smart, granted. But you wouldn't even be able to exploit those 9th level spell slots without 19 int at least.

Ascension
2008-04-19, 05:04 PM
Gandalf is messed up. Epic levels, DR 0, and only 18s topped out?

Don't make me laugh. He doesn't seem that smart, granted. But you wouldn't even be able to exploit those 9th level spell slots without 19 int at least.

And what evidence do we have of him using 9th level or higher spells?

Kurald Galain
2008-04-19, 05:07 PM
Frodo- 2nd level commoner, 1st level bard, 1st level rouge, 2nd level ranger

First, it's "rogue", not "rouge". Second, most of the hobbits are actually aristocrats. Third, NPC classes make little sense for the major PCs of the story. And fourth, four base classes for one guy, how is that not weird?

Frodo - moderate level rogue, with extremely high wisdom and the Iron Will feat.
Sam - low level fighter, with likewise Iron Will
Legolas - high (12-15) level ranger, archer specialty and dexterity in the low twenties.
Gimli - high level fighter, this one is pretty obvious.
Aragorn - high level ranger; he is one of the foremost archetypes of rangerhood, and entirely not a paladin. Two-weapon specialty.
Merry and Pippin - low level rogues, relying mainly on charisma
Gandalf - Maia incarnate, qualifies as unstatted. Since D&D doesn't really do unstatted, moderate level wizard with an expensive racial template. Outsiders get weapon profs for free, anyway. Significantly more powerful than anybody else in the fellowship, definitely epic, archetypical wizard but none of the D&D classes really meshes with his abilities.
Boromir - moderate level fighter, low wisdom score.

Saihyol
2008-04-19, 05:11 PM
For that matter what spells do we ever see him use?

(from the films)
Light
Shield of Faith (maybe?)
Speak with Animals/Animal Messenger

1Ranger/1Cleric?

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-19, 05:20 PM
Searing light and (from The Hobbit) fire seeds.

Gandalf's abilities are all over the class charts. You can make a good case for paladin and/or bard for the way his presence bolstered the courage of the soldiers of Gondor (and it started to flag again when he moved on to a different part of the wall). Though actually, come to think of it, you might be able to technically attribute that to the Prince of Dol Amroth, who was making the rounds with him, though it's heavily implied that it was Gandalf doing it.

Though ultimately, I credit several of Gandalf's powers to his Ring.

Lupy
2008-04-19, 05:33 PM
Sorry, but I play SWRPG, not D&D, and I was wondering what all of you said more than my own thoughts, and in SWRPG abilities tend to balance out more than go eliteist like they seem to in D&D. And multiclassing is awesome because there is no XP penatly.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-19, 05:39 PM
Though ultimately, I credit several of Gandalf's powers to his Ring.

He has one of the Elvish Rings (the three Sauron gave to the elven lords). However, his true power is the fact that he is a wizard which is completely different from the common sense of the title. In Middle-Earth a Wizard is a Maiar (a divine being) sent to the mortal world to watch over it. So all of his abilities are innately divine, he is a cleric.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-19, 05:43 PM
Sorry, but I play SWRPG, not D&D, and I was wondering what all of you said more than my own thoughts, and in SWRPG abilities tent to balance out more than go eliteist.

Comes with the setting. Lord of the Rings has way more high powered characters (and way higher powered ones) than Star Wars does. Palpatine's got nothing on Sauron.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-19, 05:44 PM
Sorry, but I play SWRPG, not D&D, and I was wondering what all of you said more than my own thoughts, and in SWRPG abilities tent to balance out more than go eliteist.

Comes with the setting. Lord of the Rings has way more high powered characters (and way higher powered ones) than Star Wars does. Palpatine's got nothing on Sauron.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 06:14 PM
Gandalf is a twisted mix of Divine Bard, Paladin of Freedom, and possibly Risen Martyr (I have no way to check this last part without the book at hand). He wasn't a fan of casting nukes so much as laying the smackdown while dual wielding a bastard sword and a staff. :smallconfused: The DM took pity on his player (being one of those obsessive "I'm a role player, not a roll player :smallfurious: !!1!" types) and gave him a couple of kickers so he wouldn't die TOO frequently.

Oslecamo
2008-04-19, 06:59 PM
One thing people forget is Gandalf casted fireball to repel a bunch of wolves on the first book, before the fellowship entered that mountain with the storm. The classic fireball that lasted for all D&D editions. Making him at least lv5 wizard or lv6 sorceror.

But Gandalf is indeed a special case. Very complicated and mysterious, he never truly reveals the whole extent of his powers.

Renegade Paladin
2008-04-19, 07:13 PM
He has one of the Elvish Rings (the three Sauron gave to the elven lords). However, his true power is the fact that he is a wizard which is completely different from the common sense of the title. In Middle-Earth a Wizard is a Maiar (a divine being) sent to the mortal world to watch over it. So all of his abilities are innately divine, he is a cleric.
Yes, yes, I know all that. His courage-inspiring ability, though, I have to credit to Narya because, well, that's exactly what the Red Ring is supposed to do; inspire others to valor and hope.

"Take now this Ring, for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill." -- Círdan the Shipwright, upon giving Narya to Gandalf.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 07:19 PM
Was it a fireball really? Did he instagib the poor sods, or just chase them off? He was a huge fan of all things that were flashy, but had a subtle effect. LotR would have sucked if it was just Gandalf roasting the world and doing an Eagle bombing run of the Ring into Mt. Doom.

As a side note, LotR has some SERIOUS lame spots. I mean, Mt. Doom? What the flaming hades is that!? Elves: we're so perfect and awesome. Hell, one of our leader types took down a crapton of Balrog before breakfast that one time! Which leads into the whole annoying: leaders are the bestest combatants EVAR!1!! Alright, I'm ranting again. Back on topic.

I stand by the claim that he was a Bard/Paladin/etc. Anything and everything that is vaguely magical and Cha based, while being decent in combat.

Saihyol
2008-04-19, 07:31 PM
I remember Gandalf enchanting Legolas's arrows with some form of fire with the wolves.

That aside he refuses the ring when Frodo offers it because it would give the ring access to his power. I assume this was something more than light spells, encouragement magic and (possibly) fireballs.

Also he mentions on the bridge at Kazadoom:

"A servant of the Secret Fire...wielder of the Flame of Anor"

presumably some hints of his power...

I tend to agree with Kurald Galain's earlier comment about 'unstated'. In any case I don't think you see enough to make any kind of call on what he was capable of.

Draz74
2008-04-19, 07:32 PM
Lord of the Rings is an E6 campaign. Characters can't be higher-level than 6. That's why Trolls can still be scary to the world's mightiest heroes. Characters past Level 6 are "epic" and keep gaining new feats, including some feats designed specifically for this system to help them emulate things that aren't available by Level 6. Thus, characters keep getting more powerful over time, but not at the rate we expect in non-E6 D&D.

Thus, Gandalf has tons of experience, and tons of feats, but can still fight in the same fights as Level 3 heroes without making his comrades completely obsolete (as opposed to what a high-level character would do).

Gandalf's race, mechanically, is merely an Aasimar. Sure, he's a demigod-like being from the eternal realm ... but on Middle-Earth he doesn't have access to most of his "Maiar" abilities, and therefore this is what we call a "backstory."

So ...
Gandalf: Old Aasimar Bard 6 with about a gazillion Epic Feats and a couple of minor artifacts (ring and staff).
If you attribute some of his powers to the ring and staff, that pretty much takes care of it -- except for his bond with Shadowfax. Maybe the Paladin's Mount is available as a feat in this E6 campaign, to epic Lawful Good Aasimars with high charisma?

Aragorn: Human Ranger 6 with a lot of epic feats (but not nearly so many as Gandalf).

Legolas: Wood Elf Ranger 3/Fighter 3. Probably Level 4 or 5 when he enters the story, but by the end he's Level 6 and has a few Epic Feats.

Gimli: Dwarf Fighter, same level as Legolas. Possibly with a level in Marshal somewhere; his banter with Legolas seems like a marshal's Aura, and he definitely has Skill Focus (diplomacy), though arguably he still doesn't have very many ranks in Diplomacy.

Merry: Tallfellow Halfling Aristocrat/Fighter. Probably Level 5 or so by the end of the trilogy. Fighter feats probably along the Mounted Combat tree, thanks to his affiliation with Rohan. Good WIS and CHA.

Pippin: Halfling Aristocrat/Fighter, same level as Merry. Fighter feats more in line with Gondor styles. Much poorer WIS than Merry, but possibly better INT.

Frodo: Halfling Aristocrat/Rogue, with high WIS and Iron Will. About the same level as the other hobbits. Carries major artifact (obviously).

Sam: Halfling Commoner/Fighter (?), with high WIS and Iron Will and a good Sense Motive skill. About the same level as the other hobbits.

Houserule: NPC classes don't cause multiclassing penalties.

Boromir, Eomer: Fighters, about the same level as Legolas/Gimli.
Faramir: About the same as Legolas, but Human, and he rolled higher stats than Legolas overall (except for Legolas' insane DEX).
Eowyn: Fighter, maybe about a level higher than the hobbits.
Theoden: Fighter; starts off the story at Level 6 and maybe with some epic feats, but also Old, which hurts his melee abilities.

Edit: The Silmarillion is not an E6 campaign. Fingolfin is a great example of how superhuman D&D heroes should seem at high levels. :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-19, 08:31 PM
Gandalf's levels would be out there. He was only killed by - and in turn killed - a Maiar of fire and darkness, equal in power to great dragons. The fact that he didn't use "powerful" magic is explained very simply: in Middle-Earth, magic is not free, like it is in D&D. Even the Valar didn't use their powers willy-nilly; they only ever came out directly to confront Morgoth, who was one of their own. Galadriel and Elrond similarly won't use their powers and their rings overtly, but instead use them subtly - improving healing abilities, affecting the mood and nature of their home, concealing them from scrying, and so on. Gandalf is too wise to use his full power, unlike Saruman, who ended up corrupted.

Rolemaster / MERP puts Gandalf pretty aptly at level 80 or so (depending on whether he's Grey or White). Valar are level 350 to 500 (nothing being over 500, and the only things at 500 being Manwe, Melkor, and Ungoliant at her greatest), Maiar are anything from 50 to 300 or so, elven heroes topped out around 150, and humans rarely exceed 20, and the greatest humans are 40. (I've never seen a PC go over 15 in campaigns that lasted years, myself.)

Since in RM/MERP your power increases slower and slower as you gain levels (the difference between 1 and 10 is huge, but the difference between 80 and 90 is pretty much smaller than between 8 and 9), this works out nicely.

brian c
2008-04-20, 12:16 AM
Lord of the Rings is an E6 campaign

I'd never thought of this before, but it's actually a pretty awesome idea, and makes more sense than the whole "X character killed Y monster" and "X character used Z ability/spell" method of determining levels. I still think Gandalf would have more firepower than a Bard; maybe Sorcerer.


Also, @Lupy: I don't think you really have to spoiler anything in LotR. At this point in time, if anyone who is the type of person to read this forum hasn't read the books or seen the movies, then they must have some strong reason for not doing so (and then they wouldn't be reading this thread)

GoC
2008-04-20, 12:46 AM
One thing people forget is Gandalf casted fireball to repel a bunch of wolves on the first book, before the fellowship entered that mountain with the storm. The classic fireball that lasted for all D&D editions. Making him at least lv5 wizard or lv6 sorceror.

It wasn't a fireball, it was that very catchy and hard to put out fire also used in The Hobbit.
Also aren't the hobbits all level 1 commoners? Their main "thing" is that they're perfectly ordinary members of their species.

Lord_Kimboat
2008-04-20, 12:50 AM
Despite some of my criticisms in other posts, I am actually a fan of LotR. However, you might have to clarify a few things. First, are you trying to stat the characters from the films or the book? Are you trying for what the author intended or just what is observed?

One of the few things I dislike about LotR (the book as author intended) is how noble and righteous everyone and thing is. People respect Aragorn because he is the heir without having a reason of knowing that he is the heir or because he does anything noteworthy. Sam's respect for Frodo is almost fawning and is definitely part of some class structure as Sam is clearly tougher and usually has better judgement than Frodo.

Gandalf says he is a wizard but rarely (if ever) casts spells. The book also explains he is of some near godly race and everyone seems to accept this. However, being a little more cynical, we can see that Gandalf benefits from his reputation as a wizard and his actions fit most closely with those of a bard. He produces fireworks and illusions, he obviously has a great deal of charisma as he commands respect almost everywhere he goes and isn't afraid to bluff people either. He is even chalked up on knowledge skills.

Also, if you take only what is witnessed by others, it explains far better his fall in Moria and reappearance. He didn't fight the Balrog in an epic battle that "smote the mountainside" where he was then raised from the dead so that he could help a little more. No! He fell, but grabbed something below the bridge and managed to get to safety - or even cast a low level spell to stop him from falling to his death. He then escapes Moria but when confronted weaves a great story about what a powerful wizard he is.

Don't even get me started on why he has one of the rings for Elven Kings, when he is clearly neither.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 01:18 AM
Dude, I can totally see Gandalf as a Beguiler now.

Draz74
2008-04-20, 01:58 AM
I still think Gandalf would have more firepower than a Bard; maybe Sorcerer.

In my hypothetical stats for Gandalf, I chock up the blasting capabilities to "his staff." Because, IMHO, the D&D writers originally based the Staff of Power and Staff of the Magi on Gandalf's staff. (E.g. retributive strike, like he used to blow up the bridge in Moria.)


One of the few things I dislike about LotR (the book as author intended) is how noble and righteous everyone and thing is. People respect Aragorn because he is the heir without having a reason of knowing that he is the heir or because he does anything noteworthy. Sam's respect for Frodo is almost fawning and is definitely part of some class structure as Sam is clearly tougher and usually has better judgement than Frodo.

Well, some of this is symbolic and needs to be in there for the symbolism's sake.

I agree Aragorn actually became a lot more interesting in the movies, where he had some character struggles and weaknesses instead of being as "perfect" as in the books. (In the books, he's already fully come to terms with his destiny and responsibility of assuming the throne.)

Sam ... even if he is tougher and has better judgement than Frodo (which is very possible, but hard to say for sure, because we don't get much evidence of what Frodo would be like without the Ring dragging him down), that wouldn't change the way he looks at Frodo. His respect is partly due to class system, but it's a lot more due to:
- Sam's overall goodness and ability to see the good in everyone
- A long-developed, positive master/paid servant relationship
- Evidence that Sam has seen over the years about Frodo being a person with really good desires and respectable qualities
- Frodo being more quick-witted or at least better educated than him (Frodo is one of the most educated hobbits in the Shire)
- His respect for the way Frodo is bearing the Ring and (mostly) not giving into it


Also, if you take only what is witnessed by others, it explains far better his fall in Moria and reappearance. He didn't fight the Balrog in an epic battle that "smote the mountainside" where he was then raised from the dead so that he could help a little more. No! He fell, but grabbed something below the bridge and managed to get to safety - or even cast a low level spell to stop him from falling to his death. He then escapes Moria but when confronted weaves a great story about what a powerful wizard he is.

That's quite the Epiplectic Tree theory. I can't say I agree with it.


Don't even get me started on why he has one of the rings for Elven Kings, when he is clearly neither.

Cirdan gave it to him. It would be nice to have more detail about how that interaction happened, but it's not such a mystery fundamentally. I always figured Cirdan was just like, "Hmmm. I sit here decade after decade in the Grey Havens, not really doing much but building ships. I suppose someone else could do more with this ring than I'm using it for."

Oslecamo
2008-04-20, 06:04 AM
It wasn't a fireball, it was that very catchy and hard to put out fire also used in The Hobbit.
Also aren't the hobbits all level 1 commoners? Their main "thing" is that they're perfectly ordinary members of their species.

Except that in that particular situation he made the fire explode in a spherical patern above their heads, whereas in the Hobbit he lighted up branches and threw them against the wolves. It was a fireball because he didn't any material suport to spread the fire that second time.

And Frodo standed out from the rest of the Hobbits from the beggining, being classified as a freack by most of the rest of the population. Merry and Pippin were pretty mishieveous before the adventure started, stealing food from everybody and anybody. Sam was a "simple" gardener who liked to sneack overnight to overhear his master's conversations with the mysterious wizard.

Gorbash
2008-04-20, 06:13 AM
RotK Spoiler
I'm statting for just after the ring was destroyed.
I'm doing abilities in this order:

Boromir- (Deceased) 9th level fighter
13, 16, 16, 10, 9, 10

First of all, this is totally unnecessary. Everybody who visits this board has read the book two times or more, or at least seen the movies. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been here.

Second of all... I'd say Gandalf is a Factotum...

xPANCAKEx
2008-04-20, 07:14 AM
so how do you lot equate gandalf's fire works then? illusion spell with a exploding powder for a spell trigger?

Lord_Kimboat
2008-04-20, 08:15 AM
Cirdan gave it to him. It would be nice to have more detail about how that interaction happened, but it's not such a mystery fundamentally. I always figured Cirdan was just like, "Hmmm. I sit here decade after decade in the Grey Havens, not really doing much but building ships. I suppose someone else could do more with this ring than I'm using it for."

Sorry folks, Draz started it! I told people not to even go there but then he brings it up anyway!

Okay, so my suspicious mind has Gandalf as the not quite so noble Bard who somewhat fraudulently claims to be a wizard so people respect him more. I mean come on, people in these forums will tell you that wizards, especially high level wizards with some cheesy race with LA, will pwn just about anything. While Bards can be beaten by three goblins, a stiff breeze and Fifi the Wonder Dog. I'd lie about it as well.

So, how does Gandalf get the ring? He goes down to the docks (yeah, nothing dishonest ever happens there) and a shipbuilder (or maybe even a stevedore, remember, Gandalf embellishes these things) says, "uh yeah, an Elf headed for the Haven's just gave me this ring. *looks around shiftily* He said he wouldn't need it any more and I could just keep it. But I don't really need it so you, a fine adventuring type should have it."

In short, a successful slight of hand roll and the ring now has a new owner. Enterprising Elven rogue, known to the local authorities as Ciridan, then unloads his magical merchandise for several thousand gold pieces to the first adventurer he can find before the previous owner notices its missing. This is probably one of the reasons why Gandalf doesn't show it off or even use it that much around Elves.

Now we all know the poem. Three rings for Elven Kings. Does it not strike anyone else as odd that none of these rings are actually owned by an Elven king?

Galadriel has the best claim. She is the ruler of a small, but perfectly functional kingdom. However, female kings are usually referred to as Queens.

Elrond has a ring but Rivendell is quite clearly a 'house' not a kingdom. Also, he is not exactly 100% Elven either.

Gandalf is clearly not an Elf (the lack of pointy ears is a giveaway) and seems lucky to own his own clothes much less a kingdom!

There is though, one Elven king around, Thirandiril - Logolas' father. Now I know the Tolkien fans will start jumping up and down at this point complaining about High Elves and nobility, etc, etc. However, we know that Thirandiril isn't exactly adverse to breaking the law. He did abduct and hold prisoner a party of Dwarves and a Halfling just for straying into his kingdom. Also, Legolas strikes me as an Elf of action rather than a stickler for niceties or fine points of heritage.

Thus I have a theory. Thirandiril certainly knows the poem and it doesn't say 'three rings for HIGH Elven kings', but just 'Elven kings'. He is an Elven king and thus wants this magical piece of bling for himself. He sends his boy to the nearest Elven ring that he knows about, Elrond with the message, "hand it over."

When Legolas gets there though, he discovers (or maybe Elrond points out) that Gandalf has a ring and is neither Elf nor king and that would be a much nicer present for daddy. Thus Legolas joins the party with a hidden agenda. Gandalf may have discovered this and thus fakes his own death to cover for it. When he is caught, he spins the story of dying and coming back naked (without the ring).

Granted, this is all from my very cynical mind and I find it much easier to attribute motives of self interest to people rather than ones of nobility. This may seem sad but if you don't believe me, try watching the news some time. Our politicians, our business people and even our holy men and women almost always have motivations of self interest. They will quite often resort to lies and deception as a first resort. Maybe Tolkein didn't see that or didn't want it in his world but it is what people are like and I have a hard time suspending my disbelief if people don't act that way.

Ossian
2008-04-20, 09:14 AM
Nice inputs!

Well, the hobbits are a bit special, but it's more of a narrayive quality to them, than classes and levels. Still, Id' say Frodo and Sam are character that stand out and develop through the series.

Strictly ruleswise, all characters should not gain but a single level throughout the whole trilogy. Thus, Aragorn gets the crown and the chick, level up.

Merry and Pippin get high on Ent Booze, slay a BBEG each (well, almost no comparison between the 2, but they just get INTO the next level, no one knows how far). Level up.

Frodo: owns Sauron (level up)

Sam: owns "The Ring" (many times). Level up.

Legolas and Gimli, not so much. They don't do much in the way of 'new experience', except thay do their lifetime job on a much bigger scale. 2 major battles and 2 big skirmishes. Level up.

Gandalf: hmmm.....well, he gets the "campaign completion" bonus, the "destiny fulfillment" bonus, the travel XP, research XP, own a BALROG singlehandedly. Gets into 1 big battle. Fends off the 9 at weathertop, owns the 9 nazguls repeatedly during the siege and tells off the Witch King. Gets a promotion to "Histarion Ered" chief overthrowing his former boss and breaks a powerful enchantment. Dies and is reborn with a new body and a new mandate. Ok, level up.

As far as numbers go:

Frodo:
Starts as level 3 expert and ends as Expert 3/Rogue 1, or possibly (changing some fluff), as EXP 3/Paladin 1. Just remove the heavy armor proficiency (but they do have to get used a to a lot of armor weight when disguised as orcs), and the martial weapon proficiency. Bard wouldn't work because of the magic side (absent in Frodo). Iron will agreed, and high Charisma and Wisdom. Also, good Constitution, as he is put to the test for many months.
When he comes back he is FRODO OF THE 9 FINGERS, he saves the world. He went a long way and came back a better person. He is "ideals" incarnate. Paladin for the win. As a ring bearer, he will forever be marked, more attuned to the supernatural, possibly even able to see what is evil in things and people, and smite it.


Sam
Starts as an Expert 2/Rogue1 (younger than Frodo by many years). He is definitely coming back as EXP.2/ROG. 2
Iron will. High wis. Not so high charisma. Sturdy and well built.

Merry and Pippin
Start as low level rogues/experts (EXP1/ROG1). When they come ack, they might have gained a level or 2 in Warrior. High charisma. Good constitution. Pippin? Belkar-level wisdom.

Aragorn
Paradigm of rangerhood, brave, toughest fighter of his age or close to the toughest. Wise and noble. Trained since childhood to stalk and kill and capture minions of the dark and to know nature and history. SPeaks languages and has seen many countries.
Start as a Ranger and stay Ranger until level 8 (swift tracker). Mix it up with levels of Fighter (2). and horizon walker.
He sets from Rivendell as RGR 8/FTR 2/HOW5 (all terrains mastery). Levels up with soje fancy PrC level 1.
High Wisdom, very High charisma. Excellent constitution.
Something like DEX 16 . STR 16. CON. 20 (high, tall, resilient numenorean descendant from Elendil and practically pure blood). INT 14. WIS 17. CHA. 20
Give him a +1 level adj. for his race (with a +4 CON modifier when rolling stats) and the Lay on Hands for free.

Boromir
Pure core fighter. Go with aristocrat 2 (formal aducation and some necessary skill points to build up an institutional leader) and throw in 6 or 7 fighter levels
Very high CON (survives a shower of arrows, for a little while) and good CHA. Low WIS.

Legolas:
Scout from "Complete Adventurer" would be great. Skill monkey (to make up for the huge age difference and the many fields of expertise an elf has to have), quick, nimble, lots of movement bonus. Add some levels of Ranger (they are the fighters of the wilderness) with archery. I guess a Scout 9/Ranger 2 is ok, with archery feats. Flawless stride and camouflage are perfect for him. Also is skirmish (like a moving sneak attack). By the end, with all the battles he goes through, grant him a level in FTR.

Scount 9/Ranger 2/Fighter 1

Gimli
A bit like Boromir, maybe a bit higher. Fighter 8 and maybe expert 1 (he is a skilled miner and a person of renown in his community, and is not really that youngish). Finish with a level in FTR.
FTR 9/EXP1

Gandalf:
Native Outsider is very cool for him. Class levels to be divided between Druid and Bard. He is, more or less, a merlin of some sort. Merlin was considered to be both or one or the other. No effects of aging on STR, DEX and CON.

Druid 4/Bard 12/Eldritch Knight 10/Add whatever you like such as mystic theurge (arcane and divine boost) or loremaster.

Change songs to spells (that's a bit what they are in Middle Earth and a bard druid is all right (esp. the Song of Freedom to break all enchantements). MT boosts caster levels, and so does EK.

Saruman
Total wizard (or sorcerer) specialized in Illusion or Enchantment, turning into Loremaster and Archmage at some stage. Wise and knowledgeable, skilled in many crafts, dexterous, charming. WIZ 13 / LOM 10 / ARM 5 and so on.

Ossian

Worira
2008-04-20, 10:01 AM
Gandalf also casts Hold Portal in the mines of Moria.

Sleet
2008-04-20, 10:02 AM
My favorite Gandalf build is half-celestial human (yes I know he's not human, but it works) paladin 10/sorcerer 3, with some hack to let him cast lighting bolt - maybe the staff.

GoC
2008-04-20, 10:08 AM
Saruman
Total wizard (or sorcerer) specialized in Illusion or Enchantment, turning into Loremaster and Archmage at some stage. Wise and knowledgeable, skilled in many crafts, dexterous, charming. WIZ 13 / LOM 10 / ARM 5 and so on.
And when exactly did Saruman start throwing around 9th level spells?:smallconfused:
In fact to the best of my knowledge in the book he never used a single bit of magic.


That's quite the Epiplectic Tree theory. I can't say I agree with it.
Actually it would be very plausible if it didn't throw into doubt Gandalf's character. As he's a good Maia it's very unlikely that he'd lie like that.


Except that in that particular situation he made the fire explode in a spherical patern above their heads, whereas in the Hobbit he lighted up branches and threw them against the wolves. It was a fireball because he didn't any material suport to spread the fire that second time.
You might want to re-read the book.:smalltongue:

In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow; he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
“Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!” he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree top to tree top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf chieftain. All the others fled.

EDIT: I'd put Gandalf as a 9hd outsider that casts spells as a 1st level wizard but with caster level 9. Also his magic artifacts are pretty neat but not beyond the WBL of a 9th level character.

Ossian
2008-04-20, 10:37 AM
And when exactly did Saruman start throwing around 9th level spells?:smallconfused:
In fact to the best of my knowledge in the book he never used a single bit of magic. Actually it would be very plausible if it didn't throw into doubt Gandalf's character. As he's a good Maia it's very unlikely that he'd lie like that. You do might want to re-read the book.:smalltongue:


EDIT: I'd put Gandalf as a 9hd outsider that casts spells as a 1st level wizard but with caster level 9. Also his magic artifacts are pretty neat but not beyond the WBL of a 9th level character.


Good point. What about Expert 8/LM 10 and possibly a bunch of levels of Wiz (illusionist) or Bard?

O.

Saihyol
2008-04-20, 11:15 AM
Updated 'Gandalf's spell list' with magical effects I'd forgotten about:

Light - Moria
Hold Portal - Moria vs the Balrog
Shield of Faith (maybe?) - on the bridge
Speak with Animals/Animal Messenger - Gwaihir (that moth in the film)
Mount/Phantom Steed - Shadowfax
Dominate Person - when he forces Saruman to listen to him
Dispel Magic - When he breaks the enchantment over Theoden
Mage’s Disjunction - when he shatters Saruman's staff
Flame Arrow - against the wargs on their way to Moria/in the hobbit
Know direction - in Moria
Flare/Sunburst - In the goblin cave (the Hobbit) vs. the orcs at helm's deep
Detect Magic/Identify - when the find Sting and Glamdring (the hobbit)
Prestidigitation - smoke rings
Silent Image - fireworks/the horses at the ford to rivendell
Sanctuary - When the golbins snatch everyone else in the hobbit
Ventriloquism - Keeping the tolls occupied (the hobbit)
Hypnotism - keeping Beorn interested in the story while dwarves keep coming
Legend Lore - figuring out the ring is the ring
Command - to various troops in Gondor/Rohan
Invisibility (or some other form of non-detection) - when he went into Sauron's stronghold to find Thorin's father (the hobbit)
Stone Shape - to destroy the bridge at Kazadoom (despite an earlier comment he did not break his staff doing this)
Command Plants - to organize the huorns (possibly treebeards influence)

Hmm I was always convinced Gandalf didn't do very much magic, but that's quite a list...

Yahzi
2008-04-20, 11:26 AM
Okay, so my suspicious mind has Gandalf...
:smallbiggrin:

Have you read "Bored of the Ring,?" the National Lampoon version of LotR? It's hard to find, but I think you'll enjoy it.

Yahzi
2008-04-20, 11:58 AM
And when exactly did Saruman start throwing around 9th level spells?:smallconfused:
In fact to the best of my knowledge in the book he never used a single bit of magic.
He sends a snow storm to Weathertop. Control Weather - 7th level, with some kind of epic Archmage feat that lets him change "centered on you" to "centered on a mountain several hundred miles away."

And he takes away Gandalf's staff - Mage Hand FTW!

:smallbiggrin:

Sleet
2008-04-20, 12:01 PM
He sends a snow storm to Weathertop.

(You mean Carhadras - I bet I spelled that wrong) In the film, yes. In the book, it was the mountain itself opposing them, not Saruman.

GoC
2008-04-20, 12:23 PM
Updated 'Gandalf's spell list' with magical effects I'd forgotten about:

Light - Moria
Hold Portal - Moria vs the Balrog
Shield of Faith (maybe?) - on the bridge
Speak with Animals/Animal Messenger - Gwaihir (that moth in the film)
Mount/Phantom Steed - Shadowfax
Dominate Person - when he forces Saruman to listen to him
Dispel Magic - When he breaks the enchantment over Theoden
Mage’s Disjunction - when he shatters Saruman's staff
Flame Arrow - against the wargs on their way to Moria/in the hobbit
Know direction - in Moria
Flare/Sunburst - In the goblin cave (the Hobbit) vs. the orcs at helm's deep
Detect Magic/Identify - when the find Sting and Glamdring (the hobbit)
Prestidigitation - smoke rings
Silent Image - fireworks/the horses at the ford to rivendell
Sanctuary - When the golbins snatch everyone else in the hobbit
Ventriloquism - Keeping the tolls occupied (the hobbit)
Hypnotism - keeping Beorn interested in the story while dwarves keep coming
Legend Lore - figuring out the ring is the ring
Command - to various troops in Gondor/Rohan
Invisibility (or some other form of non-detection) - when he went into Sauron's stronghold to find Thorin's father (the hobbit)
Stone Shape - to destroy the bridge at Kazadoom (despite an earlier comment he did not break his staff doing this)
Command Plants - to organize the huorns (possibly treebeards influence)

Hmm I was always convinced Gandalf didn't do very much magic, but that's quite a list...
I disagree with the ones in bold.
Phantom Steed-Shadowfax was just a horse that was a present from the king of Rohan.
Speak with animals-The great eagles can speak.
Dominate Person-I'd say that's a Voice of Command supernatural ability instead of a spell
Mage’s Disjunction-That's more related to him overthrowing Saruman as the leading wizard in the area
Flame Arrow-That's actually his ultra-catchy super-flame. I believe it's related to his ring.
Know direction-Didn't he actually get lost? He was going by memory from the last time he went through.
Sanctuary-I think he blinded and killed a few then ran away.
Hypnotism-That seems more like a product of Bourne's character and Gandalf's high charisma and interesting story
Legend Lore-Knowledge(magical artifacts)
Command-While Gandalf can use command (as against Saruman) in this case I think it was some sort of leadership check
Invisibility-I combination of stealth and Cloud Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/cloudMind.htm) seems more likely.
Stone Shape-I think this one is Shatter
Command Plants-Very unlikely

That said it's still a lot longer than I remembered. Definitely needs a whole new spell list.

Good point. What about Expert 8/LM 10 and possibly a bunch of levels of Wiz (illusionist) or Bard?

O.

Why not just outsider 9 like Gandalf?

Saihyol
2008-04-20, 12:34 PM
Just wanted to attempt to break the 'Gandalf is a wizard who doesn't cast spells' idea.

Wouldn't disagree with the alternate spell choices, I was flicking in a hurry for spells of the right flavour.

On the stuff that could be other things (leadership checks/high charisma/voice of command) I was just pointing out that some of these things could be spell effects.

DM: Everyone make endurance checks.
Gandalf Player (GP): Natural 1
DM: okay Gandalf is fatigued, make a survival check to stay on the right path.
GP: Natural 1 again! I need new dice
DM: Okay Gandalf is also lost and has no idea which of the two forks leads east
GP IC: I have no memory of this place. (OOC) I cast know direction
DM: The left fork is heading east though of course it may not continue that way.
GP: Okay Gandalf is going to sit down and rest while pretending he doesn't know which direction to go until he's not fatigued anymore.

(though I'd definitely give the Gandalf player bonus XP for good roleplaying).
Also I admit I was stretching in places.

:smallsmile:

GoC
2008-04-20, 12:39 PM
Just wanted to attempt to break the 'Gandalf is a wizard who doesn't cast spells' idea.

I see Gandalf as 'Gandalf is a wizard who doesn't cast fireball at everything that moves.':smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2008-04-20, 12:52 PM
I liked that version of FOTR as D&D adventure. I wonder if one could continue with this theme: mm, D&D-ish!

Ossian
2008-04-20, 01:35 PM
:smallbiggrin:

Have you read "Bored of the Ring,?" the National Lampoon version of LotR? It's hard to find, but I think you'll enjoy it.

Hey, class! I have it (Italian). Freakin' hilarious.

O.

EDIT
@GoC. 9th level outsider with caster level 9 for all spells might work. My problem is: we have to change all villains accordingly. Just one example: the Balrog. All by himself, conquers Moria slaying all or almost all of the dwarves inside. Gandalf faces it and wins, alone. Could he do that as an outsider 9? I am not saying the Balrog is a Balor or a Pit Fiend though...

Myshlaevsky
2008-04-20, 01:47 PM
As far as I know, the balrog had help from the creatures inside and there's speculation in the book that it may have been awakened by Sauron. It's also mentioned that Aragorn and Boromir (who I think is getting a bad rap here, I'd always thought of him as tougher than legolas or gimli) would have stayed and fought it, so perhaps it's not as strong as supposed? These points are pretty dubious though, so I can't really clarify anything.

Draz74
2008-04-20, 02:00 PM
Sorry folks, Draz started it! I told people not to even go there but then he brings it up anyway!
You're right. I was disobedient, and now my soul has been hurt by conspiracy theories as a punishment.


In short, a successful slight of hand roll and the ring now has a new owner. Enterprising Elven rogue, known to the local authorities as Ciridan, then unloads his magical merchandise for several thousand gold pieces to the first adventurer he can find before the previous owner notices its missing.
Only, Cirdan is the local authority. He is the oldest known elf. Hardly some young upstart enterprising rogue.


Now we all know the poem. Three rings for Elven Kings. Does it not strike anyone else as odd that none of these rings are actually owned by an Elven king?
That is odd, quite an interesting point. Although I think it's more an error on the poet's part than on the Rings' owners' part. Because the rings were originally given by their creator to Cirdan, Galadriel, and Gil-galad; out of whom only the latter was actually an Elven King. Still, interesting that we've all had such a false poem line drilled into us so thoroughly.

Who wrote the poem anyway? Very interesting question. I would think Sauron, at the time that he forged the One, because the latter half of the poem is inscribed on the One; but I don't think Sauron knew yet about the existence of the Three when he forged the One. So maybe the second half of the poem was written first, then the first half written later. It still may have been written by Sauron as a propoganda tactic, in which case it makes sense that he's (intentionally or unintentionally) inaccurate about the details of the distribution of the Three.


Galadriel has the best claim. She is the ruler of a small, but perfectly functional kingdom. However, female kings are usually referred to as Queens.
Not so small from what I remember. Perhaps smaller than the Mirkwood community, but Lothlorien is the main "home base" for the entire tribe of high elves; much much bigger than Rivendell or the Grey Havens.

Still, you've got a good point about the "Queen" issue.


There is though, one Elven king around, Thirandiril - Logolas' father.
That would be Thranduil.


Granted, this is all from my very cynical mind and I find it much easier to attribute motives of self interest to people rather than ones of nobility. This may seem sad but if you don't believe me, try watching the news some time. Our politicians, our business people and even our holy men and women almost always have motivations of self interest. They will quite often resort to lies and deception as a first resort. Maybe Tolkein didn't see that or didn't want it in his world but it is what people are like and I have a hard time suspending my disbelief if people don't act that way.
I would agree with "often," but not "almost always."

I think the world is a better place than you make it out to be, and that there really are noble and selfless people sometimes. They may have even been more abundant in other time periods than in ours (let alone in fiction). As Sam says, the Lord of the Rings story is all about believing that "there's some good in this world!" ... even when it doesn't seem to be true.

EDIT: And if you need a nonfictional (and modern) example of heroic behavior actually existing, I suggest you look up the Hotel Rwanda story. Paul Rusesabagina (the real one, not the actor who played him) came and spoke at my university this semester, and I judge him to be very genuine.

Yahzi
2008-04-20, 02:14 PM
(You mean Carhadras - I bet I spelled that wrong) In the film, yes. In the book, it was the mountain itself opposing them, not Saruman.
And snatching the staff by telekensis - that's probably just the movie, too.

There were some things the movies did better than the books. Boromir, for instance. I reserve the right to choose the best from each source. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2008-04-20, 05:04 PM
Thus I have a theory. Thirandiril certainly knows the poem and it doesn't say 'three rings for HIGH Elven kings', but just 'Elven kings'. He is an Elven king and thus wants this magical piece of bling for himself.
Nice try, but the poem says "elven kings under the sky". Thranduil (that's how you spell it) doesn't live under the sky, he lives in some cave complex under a lot of trees and leaves. Nope, not a sky in sight :smallbiggrin:

Also, while Galadriel isn't a king, she's married to one, and she clearly wears the pants in that house, so she's just keeping the ring safe for her dear wussy husband.



Have you read "Bored of the Ring,?" the National Lampoon version of LotR? It's hard to find, but I think you'll enjoy it.
I believe it's back in print due to the success of the movies. I saw it today in a box with The Soddit and The Sellamillion ("one box to hold them all, one box to bind them, one box to make it much easier to find them"; allegedly this box won an oscar for "best box"). Bored of the Rings is a recommended read as it's really quite funny; the other two, in my opinion, much less so.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 07:37 PM
Just a few things:
-Mordenkainen's Disjunction (or just Disjunction), not Mage's Disjunction
-Khazad-Dűm, not Kazadoom
-Caradhras, not Carhadras

Now, with that out of the way, don't forget when Aragorn et company met Gandalf the White in the woods and he told some of the story of his battle with the Balrog, he mentioned fire and lightning striking the tower and so on. That sounds like he had some offensive powers too ((Greater) Call Lightning would probably be the best D&D equivalent as it's implied the bolt came from the sky; along with some fireballish spell).

EDIT: Clarification was required.

Sleet
2008-04-20, 08:18 PM
Just a few things:
-Mordenkainen's Disjunction, not Mage's Disjunction (or just Disjunction)


(Pedantic) Just disjunction is the OGL name of the spell, also used in non-Greyhawk WotC settings like Dragonlance. (/Pedantic)

Thanks for the spelling correction on Caradhras, by the way. I though I got it wrong, but wasn't near my copy.

Myshlaevsky
2008-04-20, 08:24 PM
I'm going to put it forward that Gandalf's staff allows him to use dispel magic at least once a day. If we're taking it that Theoden was under enchantment, and that Dispel Magic is the D&D equivalent to the breaking of that enchantment, then I think it can be attributed to his staff. He specifically requested to be allowed to carry his staff into the hall. I think it can be argued this was not due to the possibilty of violence as he did not speak up on behalf of any other member of the fellowship when they gave up their weapons, and gave up his own sword.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 08:54 PM
(Pedantic) Just disjunction is the OGL name of the spell, also used in non-Greyhawk WotC settings like Dragonlance. (/Pedantic)

I think I typed it in a stupid fashion - what the brackets mean is that 'Disjunction' is an acceptable variant.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-20, 09:20 PM
Personally, I think that Gandalf (and all wizards) must use their staff as a focus for their spells. Saruman was powerless once his staff was broken.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-21, 01:57 AM
I'm going to put it forward that Gandalf's staff allows him to use dispel magic at least once a day. If we're taking it that Theoden was under enchantment, and that Dispel Magic is the D&D equivalent to the breaking of that enchantment
How about the spell "Break Enchantment"?

And why didn't he just memorize it?


Personally, I think that Gandalf (and all wizards) must use their staff as a focus for their spells. Saruman was powerless once his staff was broken.
Gandalf, notably, was not. I believe that Saruman's staff was broken because he lost his power, not the other way around.

Myshlaevsky
2008-04-21, 02:27 AM
See the rest of my earlier post for justification on why I believe it was his staff. I imagine 'break enchantment' could work equally as well.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-21, 02:51 AM
*grabs popcorn and frontrow seat, this oughta be good*

In other words, this topic tends to explode, much like the topics "monks suck/rule", "Balrogs do/don't have wings", and "4E sucks/is the second coming"


In fact to the best of my knowledge in the book he never used a single bit of magic.

A strong argument could be made that Saruman had the equivalent of Bardic Fascinate/Suggestion, and the ability to use it through others. (also), I'm fairly certain that the incident in the Caradhras mountains from the movie happened that way in the book, but I might be wrong there.


Saruman was powerless once his staff was broken.

Actually, he retained his powers of manipulation, which were more than just mundane persuasiveness (see above comment).

Matthew
2008-04-21, 03:32 AM
Flare/Sunburst - In the goblin cave (the Hobbit)

Nah, that's Lightning Bolt, for sure. The Goblins even say as much when they describe the incident to the Goblin King. There is a nice list of all of Gandlaf's magical feats for AD&D here: Magic in Middle Earth (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1798)

Eldariel
2008-04-21, 04:49 AM
A strong argument could be made that Saruman had the equivalent of Bardic Fascinate/Suggestion, and the ability to use it through others. (also), I'm fairly certain that the incident in the Caradhras mountains from the movie happened that way in the book, but I might be wrong there.

The Caradhras-incident was basically one really angry mountain in the book. Saruman wasn't really featured at that part of the book; the world is rather animistic, so all things were more or less alive. It was stated that 'the mountain does not want us to pass'. Adding Saruman to the deal was just simplification for the purposes of the movie; it's hard to convey such ideas on screen, and it'd spread out the power centers of the world too much. Also, since Tom Bombadil was an important part of that whole 'the ground is alive'-idea and he was cut out, I suppose they figured they should take other similar references away while at it.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-21, 05:01 AM
I have two things to say.

First: In the books I believe it is never quite explained what caused the storm. Some of them argued Sarumon, some of them argued Caradhas (apologized spelling).


Second: Gandalf is not a cleric. He IS effectively a lesser diety or demigod. His powers are inherent. Gandalf is not a wizard either. He doesn't carry a spellbook, he casts spontaneously, and he doesn't spend an hour preparing every morning. Although Radghast may be, he is also not a druid.

Third: Gandalf is therefore a Sorcerer.



"A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list."

And furthermore

A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study.

This gives gandalf every right to have any spell off any list he needs. The idea that sorcerers can learn from other spell lists is DM's choice. Most DMs will agree if its for flavor. Gandalf keeps his flavor of using mostly fire and light magic. He also has every reason to be able to just cast random spells no one ever heard of, because he asked the DM politely.

This also explains his high charisma score. Thus he can Intimidate bilbo, Diplomacy the Rohirrim, and why he is a legend absolutely everywhere.

Eldariel
2008-04-21, 05:17 AM
I have two things to say.

First: In the books I believe it is never quite explained what caused the storm. Some of them argued Sarumon, some of them argued Caradhas (apologized spelling).

Quoting the book:
"'We cannot go further tonight,' said Boromir. 'Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on the air; and these stones are aimed at us.'

'I do call it the wind,' said Aragorn. 'But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauran, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.'

'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,' said Gimli, 'long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.'

'It matters little who is the enemy, if we cannot beat off his attack,' said Gandalf."


Basically, it's heavily implied by everyone but Boromir that it's a primal force predating Sauron, and Gimli goes on to say the mountain isn't known for its kindness. Further, Gandalf says they cannot fight off this enemy, which I don't think would be the case if some biped were involved.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-21, 05:23 AM
I see him as closer to Paladin, honestly. He has healing magic, he has a special mount, and he is a capable melee combatant. Also, the only magic he uses that couldn't be attributed to paladin spellcasting is fire based, which is easily attributed to Narya, the ring of Fire.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-21, 05:23 AM
Ah. So gimli says its an evil mountain, the other two say its a "mysterious force" and gandalf says "Its damn cold, thats what it is. I'm going inside."

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-21, 05:27 AM
I see him as closer to Paladin, honestly. He has healing magic, he has a special mount, and he is a capable melee combatant. Also, the only magic he uses that couldn't be attributed to paladin spellcasting is fire based, which is easily attributed to Narya, the ring of Fire.

Phantom Steed gives him a mount with a base speed of 20 times his caster level. It lasts hours/level. If he was a 10th level caster, he'd be going at base speed 200. That means Shadowfax's idea of "walking" could outrun any man alive. It would also explain why only gandalf and gandalf's friends get to use the magic horse, because only the caster or someone specifically designated by the caster can ride it.

Thats a much nicer mount that a paladin's.

Eldariel
2008-04-21, 05:34 AM
Ah. So gimli says its an evil mountain, the other two say its a "mysterious force" and gandalf says "Its damn cold, thats what it is. I'm going inside."

Note that one not affiliated with Sauron. But yea, pretty much.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-21, 05:35 AM
Sure, phantom steed works for that, but it doesn't explain the fact that gandalf was a skilled swordfighter, and rarely ever used any magic. That fits a paladin better than a sorcerer. Gandalf doesn't do anything a paladin with a magical ring of fire and a staff of power couldn't do.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-21, 05:35 AM
Note that one not affiliated with Sauron. But yea, pretty much.

Well then. Care to comment on the rest of what I've said?

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-21, 05:36 AM
Sure, phantom steed works for that, but it doesn't explain the fact that gandalf was a skilled swordfighter, and rarely ever used any magic. That fits a paladin better than a sorcerer. Gandalf doesn't do anything a paladin with a magical ring of fire and a staff of power couldn't do.

I'm going to attribute his melee skills to being a Maia spirit which gives massive racial bonuses to dex and str.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-21, 05:38 AM
I'm going to attribute his melee skills to being a Maia spirit which gives massive racial bonuses to dex and str.

Occum would like a word with you. Something about a razor.

J.Gellert
2008-04-21, 05:48 AM
When King Arthur saved Merlin from a band of thieves in the forest, he asked him, "Why didn't your magic save you?", and Merlin replied: "Because I did not use it, that is why".

In D&D terms, Gandalf is clearly a wizard. Robes, staff, pointy hat, spellcasting. He is just not using it a lot. Maybe there are homebrew rules about spellcasting in Middle-Earth. But he is the wizard that started all wizards. Obviously.

The fact that he can kill a number of orcs with his sword is simple to explain: A level 20 wizard still has +10 attack, and Glamdrig is clearly a magic sword, and orcs have like 14AC and 4hp each. And maybe that is why he is not seen using flashy magic; maybe he prefers self-buffs. Also; how do we know he did not cast 9th level spells? If he had cast Time Stop, no one would have known :smallbiggrin: And he did have a habit of getting around all of Middle-Earth pretty fast.

Similarly, Aragorn is a ranger (though I bet Athelas inspired Lay on Hands), Boromir is a fighter, Legolas is a Ranger, Gimli is a fighter, and the hobbits are rogues. Keep it simple... It is clear how halflings were associated with the Thief class, and wizards with pointy hats, a long time ago.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-21, 05:50 AM
But he is the wizard that started all wizards. Obviously.

Clearly, Gandalf is the first wizard. Yep. How about it Merlin? Any thoughts on that?

Eldariel
2008-04-21, 05:51 AM
Well then. Care to comment on the rest of what I've said?

No need as far as I can see. I cannot claim to be able to stat Gandalf, as he's a full caster/full melee/inspiration - remove fear/nonsense, and has Divine Rank to boot. I don't stat deities. I agree on most of your points though. He definitely has a high Charisma (and all other stats for that matter), and being an inherent caster is pretty much natural as he is his own power source. Heck, a case could be made for him being a Psion.

J.Gellert
2008-04-21, 05:54 AM
How about it Merlin? Any thoughts on that?

Honestly? I doubt Merlin even had a pointy hat before Gandalf. But the association is obvious in either case, they are both wizards.

Perhaps sorcerers or whatever. Clearly Middle-Earth is not using Vancian magic, but if you're statting them with D&D rules, I suppose you either assume that or go for Sorcerer.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-21, 05:56 AM
In D&D terms, Gandalf is clearly a wizard. Robes, staff, pointy hat, spellcasting. He is just not using it a lot. Maybe there are homebrew rules about spellcasting in Middle-Earth. But he is the wizard that started all wizards. Obviously.


Sorcerers are identical to wizards. Only they tend to be charismatic and don't carry spellbooks. You know, like gandalf does. Remember, a wizard deprived of scribing every scroll he sees into his spellbook gets 2 spells per level. You know, like a sorcerer.

Also, what the ninja above me said. Also, sarumon is a wizard. He didn't prepare any anti-ent spells. Come to think of it, most wizards arn't going to prepare many spells while at home. Because wasting an hour of one's morning...

Kurald Galain
2008-04-21, 06:33 AM
Sure, phantom steed works for that, but it doesn't explain the fact that gandalf was a skilled swordfighter, and rarely ever used any magic.

Gandalf uses plenty of magic, only Tolkien magic is way more subtle than D&D magic.

You know, kind of like in Amber, or Earthsea, or the Six Duchies, or any of a dozen other non-Vancian fantasy novels I could mention. Vancian is rare to the point of non-existence in anything other than D&D books and Jack Vance novels (and even isn't all that common in the latter). Therefore it is ridiculous to assert that "Gandalf doesn't do Vancian ergo he cannot be a wizard".

J.Gellert
2008-04-21, 09:12 AM
Therefore it is ridiculous to assert that "Gandalf doesn't do Vancian ergo he cannot be a wizard".

Seconded, though I'd accept that he is a sorcerer simply because the class was designed exactly to represent more traditional fantasy mages, and in D&D terms, wizards and sorcerers are practically the same deal with different rules (a silly notion, but...).

GoC
2008-04-21, 11:44 PM
A strong argument could be made that Saruman had the equivalent of Bardic Fascinate/Suggestion, and the ability to use it through others. (also), I'm fairly certain that the incident in the Caradhras mountains from the movie happened that way in the book, but I might be wrong there.

Correct for the first, wrong for the second.

Firkraag: Gandalf was originally a wizard but was later ret-conned as a maia.
I'm sticking with my outsider theory.


All by himself, conquers Moria slaying all or almost all of the dwarves inside. Gandalf faces it and wins, alone. Could he do that as an outsider 9?
Narrow, terrain, moral penalties, DR, AC, healing, magical and non-magical fear, darkness, mobility. Frankly, it'd have to be incompetent not to drive them out.
Come to think of it a gestalt psychic warrior/wizard 6 with infinite per day casting (and some means of healing) could have done it with absolutely terrifying ease.

chevalier
2008-04-22, 09:58 AM
Aragorn - high level ranger; he is one of the foremost archetypes of rangerhood, and entirely not a paladin. Two-weapon specialty.

Bump for great justice. Per Gygax and Arneson, the ranger class was basically built around Aragorn, with a few other minor influences. All his levels are in ranger.


Merry and Pippin - low level rogues, relying mainly on charisma


I could go with either rogue or fighter.

I would politely disagree with ranger levels for Samwise and Frodo...and give them to Legolas. Legolas is a woods-based tracker with longbow skillz. I'm also not sure when he displayed any rogue skills?

Craig1f
2008-04-22, 10:13 AM
I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but I don't feel like reading through all the posts.

I envision Gandalf as some sort of outsider with spell-like-abilities, rather than a DnD-style wizard. He doesn't study a book to learn how to cast spells. He just sort of casts them (more sorcerer or spell-like-ability style). Although, he is extremely conservative in casting his spells.

I see Legolas is, perhaps, a scout or swift hunter, rather than a fighter. His balance and mobility is just too good for someone with only 2+int skill points per level (max balance, tumble, climb). He's fast as hell (movement bonus), does massive damage on the move (skirmish, favored enemy orcs with swift hunter), light-footed, wears light armor, and has sharp senses (blindsense).

Eldariel
2008-04-22, 10:39 AM
Then again, Elves are lightfooted and overall faster than the other races, so he doesn't really need class features to boost that; D&D elves are toned down. Also, D&D totally ****s up modelling movement speed so let's just ignore it.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-22, 11:23 AM
I would like to second Legolas as a scout/ranger with swift hunter. I would say that Merry and Pippin have a level in fighter and some rogue, Boromir did train them, but they do keep their sneaky-like tactics.

Trog
2008-04-22, 11:51 AM
I maintain that Gandalfs abilities as a Maiar are like that of Sauruman's. His words and deeds influence actions/cause reactions to a greater degree than normal.

I believe Gandalf's fire powers came solely from the red ring. Which is why Sauruman didn't have these same powers.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-22, 02:39 PM
I maintain that Gandalfs abilities as a Maiar are like that of Sauruman's. His words and deeds influence actions/cause reactions to a greater degree than normal.

I believe Gandalf's fire powers came solely from the red ring. Which is why Sauruman didn't have these same powers.

I don't buy that.

The strongest ring gives invisibility. Tied for second place are the ring of "Mass relaxation" the ring of "healing" and the ring of "Fireball, Fire Seeds, Conjure Fire, and other Fire Related Powers."

Craig1f
2008-04-22, 03:07 PM
I would like to second Legolas as a scout/ranger with swift hunter. I would say that Merry and Pippin have a level in fighter and some rogue, Boromir did train them, but they do keep their sneaky-like tactics.

Merry and Pippin definitely have some fighter levels or something from the book, along with an inherent strength bonus.

In the book, they drank some tree ent water, which made them taller and stronger. Then they fought considerably in that last battle from the third book. They both slew multiple orcs, and the one (I forget which) helped kill that Ringwraith.

When they returned the shire, they were fully armored, and noticeably taller than Sam and Frodo. Saruman and Orcs had taken over the Hobbit village, and they fought them off. Then as Saruman and Wormtongue left in disgrace, Wormtongue stabbed Saruman in the back.

Craig1f
2008-04-22, 03:15 PM
I don't buy that.

The strongest ring gives invisibility. Tied for second place are the ring of "Mass relaxation" the ring of "healing" and the ring of "Fireball, Fire Seeds, Conjure Fire, and other Fire Related Powers."

The "strongest" ring is only powerful for Sauron. It merely gives Invisibility and Extended Life to everyone else. For Sauron it gives him power. Everyone simply believes that the ring will give them power, because it is an intelligent item, and it wants to corrupt people.

The other rings are more powerful if they're in the hands of people who have a use for them.

GoC
2008-04-22, 03:30 PM
I don't buy that.

The strongest ring gives invisibility. Tied for second place are the ring of "Mass relaxation" the ring of "healing" and the ring of "Fireball, Fire Seeds, Conjure Fire, and other Fire Related Powers."

That's a widened widened widened widened widened widened widened widened widened widened widened widened widened lesser hallow. A 27th level spell.
I'd actually say the Narya is the weakest of the three.
The one ring also gives (in addition to a 30th level unhallow): extended life, +3 to spell DCs, +2 to caster level and dominate person on anyone wielding another ring of power.
The Narya can kill a few goblins. The others can force the rise and fall of nations.

Craig1f: The one ring could have been claimed by someone like Gandalf or Galandriel (Tolkien said this). The problem is that they'd become just like Sauron (and hopefully complete his life's work: the corruption of middle earth).
Even if someone claims the ring (killing Sauron) Sauron still wins.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-22, 03:38 PM
Every single other ring is vague. Thats the whole point of the one ring, isn't it? I find it hard to believe that they'd make 19 rings with strange properties you might not even notice if you weren't paying attention, things you might attribute to the simple oddities of fate...

Oh yeah, and one ring that makes FIREBEAMS.

GoC
2008-04-22, 04:07 PM
Every single other ring is vague. Thats the whole point of the one ring, isn't it? I find it hard to believe that they'd make 19 rings with strange properties you might not even notice if you weren't paying attention, things you might attribute to the simple oddities of fate...

Oh yeah, and one ring that makes FIREBEAMS.

It doesn't make firebeams. It makes increases the natural talents of it's user in the fire-using direction. Result? Gandalf can make sticky fire and light.
That sticky fire is about as good as Greek fire, not exactly fireballs is it?

EDIT: Frodo for instance probably wouldn't have been able to do more than make it glow faintly.

hamishspence
2008-04-22, 04:08 PM
Might work the Ring of Fire as giving bonuses to all uses of fire magic, rather than granting fire spells. (and charisma checks?)

Three act differently from the others: maybe cos the wielders aren't mortal. but they might have powers unique to them as well.

GoC
2008-04-22, 04:10 PM
Might work the Ring of Fire as giving bonuses to all uses of fire magic, rather than granting fire spells. (and charisma checks?)

Three act differently from the others: maybe cos the wielders aren't mortal. but they might have powers unique to them as well.

Much better than how I put it...


When they returned the shire, they were fully armored, and noticeably taller than Sam and Frodo. Saruman and Orcs had taken over the Hobbit village, and they fought them off. Then as Saruman and Wormtongue left in disgrace, Wormtongue stabbed Saruman in the back.
They were 6 ft tall, the result of Ent-wash.
And those weren't orcs, they were local thugs and bullies. The hobbits were only conquered because they were naturally peaceful, about a quarter of the size and without any military training whatsoever. Once they rallied around a couple of giants (for hobbits) who were highly resilient warriors and very heavily armed the bullies just broke and ran.

EDIT: I'd consider Frodo an aristocrat 1 at the beginning and a rogue 1 at the end. Samwise went from commoner to fighter 1. Pippin and Merry went from commoner/expert 1 to fighter 1 and got a size boost (which really helps). No they didn't kill any orcs (to the best of my knowledge).

Lupy
2008-04-22, 04:38 PM
As far as I know, the balrog had help from the creatures inside and there's speculation in the book that it may have been awakened by Sauron. It's also mentioned that Aragorn and Boromir (who I think is getting a bad rap here, I'd always thought of him as tougher than legolas or gimli) would have stayed and fought it, so perhaps it's not as strong as supposed? These points are pretty dubious though, so I can't really clarify anything.

Erm... Ok, let me say a few things then respond.

1) This is a brief ranking of the power of Maia
Sauron/Eonwe
Osse
Gothmog
Balrogs/possibly dragons
Istari (wizards)

2) Men of Gondor (and rangers) never give up.

3) Boromir started out above Legolas and Gimli, but they level up multiple times.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-22, 05:08 PM
GoC is correct about the rings, they don't actually grant any abilities, they only amplify the wearer's existing ones. All of the rings save the One Ring only amplify in respect to certain types of abilities (i.e. the Ring of Fire enhancing fire abilities). The One Ring is special in that it amplifies all abilities (and the long life as a minor perk/curse), so why does it grant invisibility? Think for a second who ever wore the ring? Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo all of who are the same race whose most renown ability is stealth, thus the Ring amplifies that stealth into its ultimate form, invisibility. This is also why Gandalf didn't want to touch it, the ring would amplify his already impressive powers and corrupt him into creating mass destruction.

Lupy
2008-04-22, 05:26 PM
Hmmm, I'd like to say. Rings of power amplify abilities. Gandalf is the most powerful ring bearer except for Sauron, so his ring appears more powerful. All the elven rings are equal, and Sauron never touched them! Additionally, about the poem. Three rings for elven kings... Elves don't worry about little details like their fuedalistic positions. Powerful elves are kings or lords or princes, Feanor, he would've been Lord or Prince even if Finwe wasn't his father. And don't forget that Celebrimbor probably meant to keep one for himself, soooo one for Queen Galadriel, one for King Gil-Galad, and one for semi-king Celebrimbor (he is Feanor's grandson and current heir, Galadriel is just older and not as cursed).

Inhuman Bot
2008-04-22, 06:43 PM
I'am pretty sure they would level up more then once over the course of the books.

GoC
2008-04-22, 09:12 PM
I'am pretty sure they would level up more then once over the course of the books.

They live in a world where you don't get much xp gains from defeating bad guys. In fact after the first one or two fights you'd be better off with an hour of training.

Draz74
2008-04-23, 01:42 AM
GoC is correct about the rings, they don't actually grant any abilities, they only amplify the wearer's existing ones. All of the rings save the One Ring only amplify in respect to certain types of abilities (i.e. the Ring of Fire enhancing fire abilities). The One Ring is special in that it amplifies all abilities (and the long life as a minor perk/curse), so why does it grant invisibility? Think for a second who ever wore the ring? Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo all of who are the same race whose most renown ability is stealth, thus the Ring amplifies that stealth into its ultimate form, invisibility. This is also why Gandalf didn't want to touch it, the ring would amplify his already impressive powers and corrupt him into creating mass destruction.

It's more complicated than that. The One also gave invisibility to Isildur, who was very much not a hobbit (nor, so far as we know, a ranger or stealthy type). And doesn't Sam put it on without going invisible, when he's invading Cirith Ungol as a one-man army? Or am I remembering that wrong? And the hobbits were all very surprised that it didn't make Bombadil invisible.

Still, yeah, I agree that overall it does have a knack for amplifying its wearer's powers, and that's why Gandalf said it would wield too much power through him if he took it.


Hmmm, I'd like to say. Rings of power amplify abilities. Gandalf is the most powerful ring bearer except for Sauron, so his ring appears more powerful. All the elven rings are equal, and Sauron never touched them! Additionally, about the poem. Three rings for elven kings... Elves don't worry about little details like their fuedalistic positions. Powerful elves are kings or lords or princes, Feanor, he would've been Lord or Prince even if Finwe wasn't his father. And don't forget that Celebrimbor probably meant to keep one for himself, soooo one for Queen Galadriel, one for King Gil-Galad, and one for semi-king Celebrimbor (he is Feanor's grandson and current heir, Galadriel is just older and not as cursed).

Cirdan, although we as readers don't see much of him, is like the most respected elf in all of history by all the other elves. So I doubt Celebrimbor wasn't planning to give Cirdan a ring at any point. I wonder which of the others, Gil-Galad or Galadriel, he was planning to leave out?

Hoggmaster
2008-04-23, 07:11 AM
Feanor, he would've been Lord or Prince even if Finwe wasn't his father. And don't forget that Celebrimbor probably meant to keep one for himself, soooo one for Queen Galadriel, one for King Gil-Galad, and one for semi-king Celebrimbor (he is Feanor's grandson and current heir, Galadriel is just older and not as cursed).


Galadriel is the highest ranking Noldor still in middle earth, being the Daugher of Finarfin son of Finwe. She is still under the oath of Feanor.

Celebrimor was one of the Gwaith-i-mirdain ... Jewelsmith of Hollin, <no ring ever, just made em!> Killed in the second age during the destruction of Eregion

Gil-Galad was the High King of the Noldo in ME <ring passes to Elrond>

Cirdan give his ring to Mithrandir to as others have said "to kindle the fires in the hearts of men.

Back to the OP

In MERP/RM the Rings did enhance a users spell abilities, gave immunites, many other things as well (books are on a shelf at the casa, unlooked at for many an age!) The main ones to look for as a reference guide (they also give conversion notes to 'other' 3d6 stat systems as far as level / hp go) are the Lords of Middle Earth Vols 1-3; I elves and Vala/maia, II Men, III Dwarves, Hobbits

WalkingTarget
2008-04-23, 11:15 AM
On the debate of "Elven-kings" and similar: The entire poem was "written" long after the Rings were made. All of the Rings of Power were first held by the Elves except the One. The Three were simply Celebrimbor's masterpieces and were the only ones not taken by Sauron when he went to war with the Elves. It's "Seven for the Dwarf-lords" because that's how many clans (or however you want to think of it) there were, which left "Nine for Mortal Men" since there were 19 Great Rings made by the elves. Mechanically, there's no difference between the Seven and Nine; it's the wearers that respond differently to them. The wording of the poem is to convey some information on the history of the Rings, but it's also a poem and needs to function as one so it might take some liberties with the wording to fit a particular format.

All of the Rings were made for the purpose of preservation as that was the one way that Sauron found to subvert the Elves. They live forever within the world, but while they do not grow weak or degrade with time the world does. This is a cause for sorrow for the Noldor as they'd known a time and place that was more eternal, but they didn't want to give up their positions of status in Middle-earth and Sauron banked on that feeling as a way to persuade them to make the Rings in the first place. Even then, he only managed to convince one of the kingdoms he approached with the idea.

So, that's probably the one power that all of the Rings could be said to have; the ability to preserve things around you (and the Men and probably Hobbits/Halflings who bear the Rings, Dwarves weren't affected in this way and Elves were already "preserved"). The negative effects of the Seven and Nine are known for 2 races as well: Men become invisible and eventually Wraiths and Dwarves become greedy and suspicious as time passes (Hobbits are probably similar to Men). We don't know how Elves respond to these as none of them possessed them for any real length of time. I do remember seeing somewhere that Tolkien had written that Light Elves (i.e. the Calaquendi - including Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc) who existed in the seen and unseen worlds simultaneously would be able to appear fully in one or the other at will if they had Rings. This was an unused draft, however, so it's canonical status is up for grabs I guess.

The Three are trickier to define. The "fading" that happens with the others might be due more directly to Sauron's influence, so the invisibility might not be automatic with these (Elrond, not being of the Calaquendi or Maiar, isn't invisible at any rate but again, we don't know how Elves interact with Rings in general other than the Three).

For Narya (Gandalf's Ring) we have this from Cirdan: '"Take now this Ring," he said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."' Giving a much more poetic reason for it to be labeled the "Ring of Fire" than simply a facility with fire (we don't know how much of what Gandalf does is him and how much the Ring, honestly, so it could go either way).

If fire control is a Ring-related power, then it's probably safe to grant similar effects to the other two (over air and water, though it's odd that Elrond has the Ring of Air and Gandalf the Ring of Fire but they cause the largest example of water control in the book: cause the flood and horse-shapes at the end of Book I in FotR). Maybe one of the acts of "preservation" for the Three is also a form of protection from enemies if they remain in an area long enough (hmm... or maybe some general control of more elements). This explains why Rivendell and Lothlorien manage to remain hidden and unspoiled despite the presence of the Misty Mountain goblins and Sauron's forces in Mirkwood nearby, respectively.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Trog
2008-04-23, 04:43 PM
Hmm... lots of responses to my last post I see. :smalltongue:

Well first of all I see no reason for applying some needless symmetry on the other rings as a reason that the fire powers can not come from the ring. They don't all have to be the same, afterall.

And yes the explanation given is poetic and all. But it is still called the Ring of Fire. And likely was called so long before it was given to Gandalf with that speech.

I guess if someone could point out to me another being (aside from an agent of evil) using magical fire I might be swayed.

Hmm... Didn't Sauruman fireball Gandalf outside of Orthanc or something? :smallconfused:

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-23, 05:45 PM
What is this nonsense about the one ring "Enhancing people's abilities"?

I seem to recall there being evidence for this point. Gandalf or someone talking at some point.

The one ring doesn't "grant" invisibility. It EATS YOU. Merely being around it turns you into a gollumish creature. In the extreme long term, gollum would become like a baby ringwraith, nothing more than a corrupted soul.

Wearing the ring accelerates that process, taking your visual form immediately. Frodo could see the ringwraiths while wearing it because while wearing it he was, to some degree, one of them.

Beings of sufficient power (such as Gandalf, or Galadriel, or Sauron) can actually tap into the ring's benefits. Doesn't Tom Bombadil briefly wear the ring? However, we are never given much idea just how powerful one becomes with the ring, because no one who is given access it has the power or the desire to use it.

WalkingTarget
2008-04-23, 07:31 PM
Hmm... lots of responses to my last post I see. :smalltongue:

Well first of all I see no reason for applying some needless symmetry on the other rings as a reason that the fire powers can not come from the ring. They don't all have to be the same, afterall.

And yes the explanation given is poetic and all. But it is still called the Ring of Fire. And likely was called so long before it was given to Gandalf with that speech.

Sorry if I sounded antagonistic in there anywhere; if so it wasn't intentional. There simply isn't much specific information on the Rings of Air and Water at all which is the problem with trying to stat them. Having one called the Ring of Fire and others called the Ring of Air and the Ring of Water it would seem logical to me that if one of them provides some form of control over its namesake, then the others would as well. The Elves tended to give things appropriate names.


I guess if someone could point out to me another being (aside from an agent of evil) using magical fire I might be swayed.

Hmm... Didn't Sauruman fireball Gandalf outside of Orthanc or something? :smallconfused:

There aren't many examples of overt magic by any white-hat who isn't either of the Valar or Maiar (or has a Ring). One elf who helps Beren seems to get a magical disguise, but everything else can pretty much be attributed to their "art" or to the Rings (with associated Sauron-level tampering).

Saruman was (probably) responsible for the explosion that broke the wall at Helm's Deep and the fight with the Ents mentions a "sorcerous fire" used from Orthanc. The nature of both of these events is not explicit, but the former at least was probably related to Gandalf's fireworks. The latter sounds like a flamethrower to me, but, again, it's not explicit (Saruman was originally subordinate to Aule the Smith, as Sauron was, and is cunning with devices).

And here's where I go into quote-whatever-I-can-find mode now that I have my books handy.

Lord of the Rings, page 60, "The Shadow of the Past":
'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die... and if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently...'

The Silmarillion, pages 288 and 289, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
"And all those rings that [Sauron] governed he perverted... [Men with Rings] could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men..."

These two passages imply that to one who had sufficient skill to wield a Ring, as opposed to simply possessing it, could use the Invisibility power at will.

ibid
"Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers... for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world..."

and from page 298:
"Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time."

From Tolkien's Letters, page 152, Letter 131:
"The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility."

and page 157 (same letter):
...the Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West."

page 236, Letter 181:
"The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, in included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change..."

All of which is what I've been able to track down on the Powers of the Three as a group.

Here's something for you, Trog. Letters, page 390, letter 301 (end):
"[Fireworks] appear in the books (and would have done even if I disliked them) because they are part of the representation of Gandalf, bearer of the Ring of Fire, the Kindler: the most childlike aspect shown to the Hobbits being fireworks."

This is the only reference to aspects of any specific Ring other than the One that I can find (I don't have Unfinished Tales or the History of Middle-Earth series to hand, though).

Letters, page 152, letter 131 again:
"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay... But also they enhanced the natural power of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil... And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron... such as rendering invisible..."

So make of that "enhanced the natural power" what you will.

Sorry that this is sort of a rambling structure for a post, but I tried to lump similar points together even though it meant coming back to the same letter several times.

So: all Rings aid in preventing decay and extend the life of mortals and "enhance the natural powers" of whatever bearer. The Three in particular also seem to have a "healing" effect and seem to provide some AoE "timelessness" and sense of peace (if in one locale for long enough). The Seven and Nine grant Invisibility and the ability to see what is normally unseen. Narya seems to grant some control over fire, but we have no direct evidence of similar abilities for the other two Elven Rings. The One allows for mental contact/domination of people wearing the other Rings in addition to the preservation, enhancement, and invisibility effects.

All but the Three are also cursed, though.

Lupy
2008-04-23, 08:12 PM
Hmm, I don't have my books handy, so thanks alot to Walking Target for those quotes. I think this really comes down too... BALROGS HAVE WINGS!!! ...No I shouldn't go there... Anyway, I believe we now have evidence that the rings enhance your abilities, all but the three happen to pervert them though. And to whoever said: "IT EATS YOU" that is not entirely true, Frodo being stabbed by a Morgul blade would make him a little wraith, not possesion of the ring. The ring perverts you, but we have no evidence that hobbits can become wraiths so, I fell we can end that. Let me ask though, this bothers me alot.
Tom Bambadil jokes about a wring that maia and high elves are fighting for, that can pervert maia, maybe even vala, and certainly is as desireable as a silmaril, and now all those are gone (Earandil! Hoggin' the last one!), it is the most powerful artifact in the world by far. Who has the powerto ignore the whole and total power of the greatest (tied with Eonwe I believe) maia in Ea. My first thought was Ulmo becuase he married the river's daughter and is so powerful. But then I remembered that Illuvatar said that the valar couldn't interefere with the ring and it's quest... So was Tom illuvatar? Was God watching his children up close for the first recorded time? That is my only current theory. :smallconfused:

Myshlaevsky
2008-04-23, 08:16 PM
I've always supported what wiki said:

"Tom Bombadil's origins in the cosmology of Middle-earth were left vague by Tolkien. He calls himself the "Oldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn", and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside." He does not neatly fit into the categories of beings Tolkien created. Speculative ideas about his true nature range from one of the Ainur, angelic beings (as the only beings on the earth before "the Dark Lord came in from Outside" were the Ainur, who shaped the earth), or God, who is called Eru Ilúvatar and "the One" in Tolkien's legendarium (the latter in The Lord of the Rings). This is reinforced when Frodo asks Goldberry just who Tom Bombadil is, and she responds by simply saying "He is." Tolkien himself did not elaborate much further, but when a reader confronted him with the theory that Bombadil was "the One", Tolkien said that he was not.[2]

At the Council of Elrond, Tom Bombadil is referred to by Galdor as being unable to deal with a siege by Sauron "unless such power is in the earth itself", implying that the character is a manifestation of Middle-earth's inherent properties. This connection explains Bombadil's seeming obliviousness to the transient concerns of mortals, as evidenced in Gandalf's concern that Tom would not understand the importance of the ring, and hence lose it, if it were entrusted to him. The idea that Tom's songs are always "stronger", as he proclaims in his rhyme, as well as his title of Master, further suggest Bombadil is the warden of nearly invincible aspects of the planet itself."

Lupy
2008-04-24, 05:16 PM
Thanks alot. But that still doesn't confirm much but that he isn't Eru. Does that mean is Ea, because that would make sense. But if he is Ea, where was he in the War of Wrath?