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graymachine
2008-04-20, 11:08 AM
I'm thinking that I may need to build a new character soon and I've already promised the DM it would be a monk, so I'm turning ideas for builds around in my head. I have 10 levels to work with and I was thinking about a Monk/Wizard into Enlightened Fist, which seems good to me after a glance. The other thought I have is a Monk in an alternating combo of Dervish and Kensai, although I'm not really sure how practical that is; any thoughts/assessments? Pointing to better monk builds?

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-20, 11:28 AM
I think that the psionic fist(that's the SRD name, its different in the book) is better, but even that compares unfavorably to the psionic warrior. Really, there aren't many decent monk builds, and those usually rely on outside spellcasting. Just for info's sake, what are the other players going to make? What is the average power level of their builds?

DMfromTheAbyss
2008-04-20, 11:30 AM
The best levels to take for monk are the first three. You get most of your basic prerequisite monk fighting abilities and only lose 1 BAB. I'd also suggest taking the minimum levels in both wizard and monk to make your requirements. So you can have more levels of enlightened fist...

Also suggest you take a good look at spells of the touch variety, some of them have duration/multiple hits which can stack nicely with flurry of blows.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-20, 11:45 AM
The usual tactic is to take every little thing that can boost your unarmed damage... Going Warforged with a Battlefist is always a good start.

graymachine
2008-04-20, 11:46 AM
I think that the psionic fist(that's the SRD name, its different in the book) is better, but even that compares unfavorably to the psionic warrior. Really, there aren't many decent monk builds, and those usually rely on outside spellcasting. Just for info's sake, what are the other players going to make? What is the average power level of their builds?

Well, the game is already running, the party is averaging 8th level with a swashbuckler, an abjurant champion, a warblade, a wizard rogue, a druid, and a bard. I'm currently running a warlock; I'm simply exploring the ideas to make a monk work as I'm expecting by the time we hit party level 10 my current character will have a good chance of having completed his goals or being dead. As for the psionics, I avoid them in D&D; they just rub me the wrong way. Is there anything out of ToB that could work well with a Monk? I can't think of any styles in it that work off of weapons monks specialize in.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-20, 11:49 AM
I'm thinking that I may need to build a new character soon and I've already promised the DM it would be a monk, so I'm turning ideas for builds around in my head. I have 10 levels to work with and I was thinking about a Monk/Wizard into Enlightened Fist, which seems good to me after a glance. The other thought I have is a Monk in an alternating combo of Dervish and Kensai, although I'm not really sure how practical that is; any thoughts/assessments? Pointing to better monk builds?

First: I will add Magic items help alot.

1) Monk's Belt: +5 Monk Level for AC, unarmed, extra stunning fist
2) Guantlet of the Talon: Increases Monk Level by 5 (stacks with belt) for similar stuff. Also lets you unarm as slashing. You need a Divine caster or True Believer feat while worshiping Bahamut.

This means with these two not that expensive items: You have +10 Monk Level for unarm damage/AC.

One Build you could try:
Monk 9/Conjurer Wizard 6 (with Abrupt Jaunt class feature instead of familiar)/Swiftblade 5
(I used this to emulate Rock Lee). With INA feat, I have unarmed of 3d8. BAB 13 or so, but haste and other spells help as buffs.
Swift Surge adds +1 to hit/Dodge/Reflex. And +1d6 damage when move 10 feet.
You get 50% miss chance always on. You can always Arcane Strike feat to burn spells for attack bonus.
If you can afford Use Magic Device Ranks: Divine power is a awesome scroll.


Another Build:
Another one: Goku (After/During fight with Vegata in first Season of DBZ)
Monk 9/Warlock 3/Lv 6 Green Star Adept/Level 2 Enlighten Fist
You could in theory get Unarmed damage 21st level Monk: If you believed in Bahamut and use Guantlet of the Talon (I didn't for this one).
Unarmed Damage 3d8 (As if 16th Monk) with INA feat.
DR 6/Adamantine/Star Rigor: +2 Str/NA but -1 Dex. 50% Fortification.
DR 1/Cold Iron. 3 Lesser Invocations (Up to you). I suggest See the Unseen (Seeing invisible is good).
Eldritch Blast: 4d6 damage, just a little extra. Bracers of armor are useful.

Note: You need to shift Alignment from Lawful to Choatic (or evil, your choice) to become a Warlock.

Enlightened First improved Monk AC/Fist as well giving that ability to give up a stun attempt for +1d6 elecritc/Fire damage for 1 round.

Really, Level 5 Green Star Adept is the farthest you should go:
a. Losing Con is bad.
b. You lose alot from taking the class cxompared to benefits.

Cool Note:
Since you have 2 DRs (you usually use best in a situation), even if they use Adamantine weapons you still have DR 1, but if they use Cold Iron you have DR 5
If they use neither you have DR 5.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-20, 11:52 AM
If you can use ToB, see if you can make an unarmed style swordsage focusing on setting sun, diamond mind, and shadow hand. The unarmed variant looses the ability to wear armor in return for a unarmed strike damage, but if your DM doesn't allow it, then just use the normal swordsage+ the unarmed strike feat in the book. Shadow Sun Ninja is also a possibility, but it doesn't always fit.

Wraithy
2008-04-20, 11:55 AM
If you want to use monk and wizard, try the kung fu genius feat from dragon magazine, it changes all of your wis dependent abilities as a monk into int based.

TempusCCK
2008-04-20, 12:57 PM
Also, be sure to pick up the feat from the PHB II that lets you treat your unarmed strike as piercing bludgeoning or slashing weapons. Suck it DR!

SurlySeraph
2008-04-20, 01:23 PM
You may want to consider using my build (http://www.thetangledweb.net/addon.php?addon=Profiler&page=view_char&cid=9784) for an Enlightened Fist.

Don't use the same stats, though; those were randomly generated. Have about 15-16 INT, decent CON (you'll need to make a lot of Concentration checks), and high DEX or STR (choose one, but don't completely dump the other; if you go with high DEX, take Weapon Finesse).

Monk 1/ Wizard 4/ Enlightened Fist 5. Instead of taking Kung Fu Genius, take Carmendine Monk from Champions of Valor; it also lets you use INT in place of WIS, but it also lets you get little boosts on your Monk abilities by taking an hour to study.

Focus on touch-range spells, to get the full use out of the Arcane Fist ability. I highly recommend Chill Touch, since it applies to more than one attack. Bestow Curse, Touch of Idiocy, and the like are all good. Blood Wind, which lets you make unarmed attacks at range, is also useful to have.

graymachine
2008-04-20, 01:36 PM
Yeah, I'm seeing how the Enlightened Fist route works; anyone think Monk into a few levels of Dervish and then into Kensai could work?

Draz74
2008-04-20, 01:38 PM
Is there anything out of ToB that could work well with a Monk? I can't think of any styles in it that work off of weapons monks specialize in.

Setting Sun does. It's the Monk style. (Although as someone else said, if you want to make a monk out of the Swordsage class, you'll probably want to also mix in some combination of Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, and Stone Dragon.)

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 02:20 PM
Unarmed Swordsage is effectively Monk with a different name (and one that doesn't functionally suck) - toss in one level of Monk into 10 levels of Shadow Sun Ninja and you have full Flurry to boot. Also, Tashatalora-feat (Secrets of Sarlona) basically makes any Psionic class into a Monk-class. You don't even need any Monk-levels to use it, although having 1-2 helps. But really, if I were to go with a Magical Monk, I'd make a Tashalatora-based manifester. Illithid Slayer and Ardent are good candidates for a Tashalatora-character, although basically any manifester can work out. Some amount of BAB would be nice though, hence my preference for the Slayer.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 02:37 PM
First: I will add Magic items help alot.

1) Monk's Belt: +5 Monk Level for AC, unarmed, extra stunning fist
2) Guantlet of the Talon: Increases Monk Level by 5 (stacks with belt) for similar stuff. Also lets you unarm as slashing. You need a Divine caster or True Believer feat while worshiping Bahamut.Or up the feat from ToB that gives you a +4 to your Monk level for unarmed damage and INA to make a medium-sized monk deal 4d8 damage at level 11 without having to worship Bahumet.

Signmaker
2008-04-20, 03:06 PM
Or up the feat from ToB that gives you a +4 to your Monk level for unarmed damage and INA to make a medium-sized monk deal 4d8 damage at level 11 without having to worship Bahumet.

That would be Superior Unarmed Strike.

Gralamin
2008-04-20, 03:17 PM
Monk 3/Psionic Warrior 17
Important Feats: Monastic Training (Psionic Warrior) (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Monastic_Training,ECS), Tashalatora (from Secrets of Sarlona)

This allows you to stack your monk and Psionic Warrior levels for your AC bonus, flurry of blows, and unarmed damage.

You lose:
Random Monk abilities

You gain:
Psionic Warrior Powers, Bonus feats, Hit Die, etc.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-20, 03:33 PM
I believe that the OP has stated that he prefers that no psionics be used, as he dislikes them in the DnD context, so perhaps we shouldn't suggest more builds that use them.

Ryusacerdos
2008-04-20, 03:44 PM
I like Sacred Fist more than Enlightened Fist because you can stack wisdom to improve both your spell DC's and AC, but mostly because of access to Divine Power.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 03:52 PM
One other thing is that you need to advance a monks base damage once it passes epic. Right now it doesn't, which is pretty bad as you should have an effective level of 21 at level 12. :smalleek: I would suggest 2d10 until you hit level 24, then 4d6 until 28, then continue the progression from there (the formula is basic). That should keep your melee capable, without actually overpowering it.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 04:21 PM
Sacred Fist's main selling point is the full BAB progression, something Monks hurt for. That makes up for the lack of flurry progression, although the fact that Divine Power would get you full BAB anyways makes it a bit more painful than it should necessarily be.

Gralamin
2008-04-20, 04:36 PM
I believe that the OP has stated that he prefers that no psionics be used, as he dislikes them in the DnD context, so perhaps we shouldn't suggest more builds that use them.

Ah Sorry, I missed that.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-20, 04:41 PM
Ah Sorry, I missed that.

It wasn't just you, there have been a couple mentions of psionic solutions, and the OP's non-psionic bent is only really supplied in a wall of text, so I thought I'd bring attention to it.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-20, 04:58 PM
I'm thinking that I may need to build a new character soon and I've already promised the DM it would be a monk, so I'm turning ideas for builds around in my head.

Monk 1 / Druid 9 is pretty good.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-20, 07:26 PM
Keep in mind, there are FOUR different styles in ToB which have a preferred weapon: Unarmed. Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and Shadow Hand.

A liberal mix of these four, plus some Diamond Mind thrown in for good times, will give you all the fun cinimatic abilities of your classic Wire-Fu b-rated kung fu movies without really being overpowered.

Want to shatter walls? Stone Dragon has what you need. Throwing people ten times your size around like nothing? Setting Sun. Flying Fists of Fury? That would be Tiger Claw. Silent and unseen until the deadly strike? That would be Shadow Hand. Mental prowess and meditation to produce incredible effects? That's Diamond Mind.

All can be done completly unarmed. Just grab the unarmed variant Swordsage, Improved Natural Attack, and Circle Kick.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-20, 07:29 PM
Also remember that the favored weapon thing has very little mechanical impact. I think there is one class ability(swordsage, gives weapon focus to all weapons of that discipline) and something like 2 feats(blade meditation and shadow blade) that work off the preferred weapon lists.

Talic
2008-04-20, 07:32 PM
My personal Preference:

Monk 2/Wizard 1 (focused transmuter)/Other stuff, like fighter

You get good boost spells from transmuter (+30 speed, or boost to strength (Fist of Stone), or Size (Enlarge), and other good abilities). You'll have shield or mage armor if you want it, and, with Practiced spellcaster, Mage Armor will last 5 hours at a time. Now, you have a good buff system, and can go for ways to optimize THAT.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-20, 07:34 PM
My personal Preference:

Monk 2/Wizard 1 (focused transmuter)/Other stuff, like fighter

You get good boost spells from transmuter (+30 speed, or boost to strength (Fist of Stone), or Size (Enlarge), and other good abilities). You'll have shield or mage armor if you want it, and, with Practiced spellcaster, Mage Armor will last 5 hours at a time. Now, you have a good buff system, and can go for ways to optimize THAT.

Go abjurant Champion, and your caster level will equal your BaB, plus give a couple other nice benefits(free quickens on your abjurations.)

MammonAzrael
2008-04-20, 08:34 PM
I was thinking of making a monk from a Feral Goliath in an upcoming game. Maybe VoP too. Grappling fun.

And the Gauntlets of the Talon do NOT stack with Monk's Belt or similar effects (states that in the description). Don't forget the Gauntlets also give you two natural claw attacks.

But for sheer power, yeah, Unarmed Swordsage is probably a better bet.

dman11235
2008-04-20, 08:45 PM
Hmm, well, there are a lot of different paths you can choose. I can get you 32d8 unarmed damage by level 20 if you wanted (provided an arcanist in the party), very close to full spell casting (16 levels) with a sorcerer/monk (my prefered choice for Enlightened Fist) with 16d8 unarmed damage I believe (haven't checked it in a while), near full psionics (alas no psionics...), a really angry bear that's nigh impossible to kill, the list goes on. At level 10 the bear warrior build is a very nice place to start (really after level 6 though), and the Enlightened Fist has fully recovered from sucking at low levels. And the unarmed damage optimization guy is well on his way to getting there. Go ahead, pick one:smallwink:

EDIT: Oh, and do NOT take Improved Natural Attack. 'Tis a trap feat. At least, unless you can't have magic items or don't have an arcanist in our group. The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) actually gives you the feat and deals con damage on a crit with unarmed strikes.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-20, 09:02 PM
I was thinking of making a monk from a Feral Goliath in an upcoming game. Maybe VoP too. Grappling fun.

And the Gauntlets of the Talon do NOT stack with Monk's Belt or similar effects (states that in the description). Don't forget the Gauntlets also give you two natural claw attacks.

But for sheer power, yeah, Unarmed Swordsage is probably a better bet.

Page 97 of Complete Divine disagrees. It says it stacks with Monk Belt. Do you have a page number of what you are talking about?

dman11235
2008-04-20, 09:27 PM
Page 103 of the MiC.

MammonAzrael
2008-04-20, 09:28 PM
Magic Item Compendium, which I believe overrules Complete Divine since it was printed later, page 103.

Yeah, the item is better in CD.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 09:37 PM
EDIT: Oh, and do NOT take Improved Natural Attack. 'Tis a trap feat. At least, unless you can't have magic items or don't have an arcanist in our group. The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) actually gives you the feat and deals con damage on a crit with unarmed strikes.So, ignoring the brokenness that is Dragon, TAKE INA. It adds 1d10 to your level-20 damage. Yes, the ring is better, but if your DM (legitimately) bans Dragon, the feat is worthwhile.

dman11235
2008-04-20, 09:48 PM
It does not add 1d10, it increases your dice size. This is a much better option than a mere +1d10. It actually increases your damage to 4d8 if you are medium and have no other modifiers other than level modifiers. Oh, and not Dragon Magazine, Dragon Magic. Not that Dragon is very broken at all usually (just a few things, like Unseelie Fey, and Magic Blooded).

EDIT: Oh, and INA is a great feat for monks to take unless they have an arcanist casting Greater Mighty Whallop or can buy the fanged ring. It's just that there are better options (spending gold instead of a feat, having a much larger boost to size instead).

Eldariel
2008-04-21, 04:25 AM
Greater Mighty Wallop is a spell that tends to get banned anyways. It limits all characters in the game solely to bludgeoning melee weapons and it's ridiculously powerful even on the early levels.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-21, 05:47 AM
I'd recommend multiclassing with Psychic Rogue or Psychic Warrior. Psychic Rogue will get you some respectable damage from sneak attack, and access to the Hustle power, which will let you synergize your movement rate and flurry of blows. Psychic rogue also has the skill support you need to do all the movement based skills a monk ought to be able to do.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-21, 06:02 AM
Magic Item Compendium, which I believe overrules Complete Divine since it was printed later, page 103.

Yeah, the item is better in CD.

Glad my group dislikes the MIC so CD version stays (if I ever play a Monk).
So they lowered price but nerfed the stacking. I guess that is a decent trade. Still seems why? Monks aren't powerhouses...

The Rose Dragon
2008-04-21, 06:04 AM
I'd recommend multiclassing with Psychic Rogue or Psychic Warrior. Psychic Rogue will get you some respectable damage from sneak attack, and access to the Hustle power, which will let you synergize your movement rate and flurry of blows. Psychic rogue also has the skill support you need to do all the movement based skills a monk ought to be able to do.

He doesn't want psionics, though. I have no idea why.

Darrin
2008-04-21, 08:11 AM
Yeah, I'm seeing how the Enlightened Fist route works; anyone think Monk into a few levels of Dervish and then into Kensai could work?

A Monk 1/Duskblade 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 5 dovetails nicely. Although it's not so much a monk build as a Duskblade who occasionally hits people with his fists. There's another PrC that advances both monk abilities and arcane spellcasting: Master of the East Wind, from Dragon #314. Enlightend Fist even allows you to get into it early without taking 4 levels of Monk to get Ki Strike.

I'd recommend against Dervish. It requires a lot of useless or sub-optimal feats, and all the cool things it can do can be done by taking two feats instead: Oversize TWF and the Travel Devotion. The only reason for a Monk to go into Dervish is to dip 1 level and pick up Unorthodox Flurry (Dragon Compendium, p. 109) so you can Flurry with scimitars.

As for Kensai, find out how your DM feels about your monk using enchanted gauntlets. This keeps your unarmed strike damage intact, but allows you to enchant the gauntlets. Monks aren't proficient in gauntlets, however, so you'd have to multiclass into something that is proficient with them or blow a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat on them. If your DM says "NO!" to the enchanted gauntlets thing... I'm not sure I'd recommend Kensai. Your BAB would get even worse, and your monk abilities that aren't useless wouldn't get any better.

If you want to go more monk than some other class... pick up Pounce, either via the Travel Devotion, or using Incarnum/Soulmelds (binding Sphynx Claws to your hand chakra gives you full attack on a charge with your natural weapons).

Starbuck_II
2008-04-21, 08:13 AM
As for Kensai, find out how your DM feels about your monk using enchanted gauntlets. This keeps your unarmed strike damage intact, but allows you to enchant the gauntlets. Monks aren't proficient in gauntlets, however, so you'd have to multiclass into something that is proficient with them or blow a Martial Weapon Proficiency feat on them. If your DM says "NO!" to the enchanted gauntlets thing... I'm not sure I'd recommend Kensai. Your BAB would get even worse, and your monk abilities that aren't useless wouldn't get any better.

If you want to go more monk than some other class... pick up Pounce, either via the Travel Devotion, or using Incarnum/Soulmelds (binding Sphynx Claws to your hand chakra gives you full attack on a charge with your natural weapons).

Guantlets are simple weapons.

dman11235
2008-04-21, 08:57 AM
So what if gauntlets are simple weapons? Monks are not proficient (nor should they be) and gauntlets are not special monk weapons. So no gauntlets! It's very sub-optimal. Instead, check out Savage Species for the Amulet of Natural Attacks. Which will let you strike with something other than just the fist your gauntlet is on as well as free up two separate feats. Maybe three if UF requires Weapon Focus.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-21, 04:36 PM
INA stacks with a battlefist.

Just saying ;)

dman11235
2008-04-21, 04:50 PM
Doesn't stack iirc. Two virtual increases will not stack (they refer to your base damage), but a virtual and a real, or two real increases (if the cause of the increases do stack) will stack. Hence, my bear monk. I love that build so much...

EDIT: You keep saying that "omg Greater mighty Whallop is teh haxx0rs" (only with more eloquence). I want to know whats wrong with wanting a powerful spell cast on you. If you can get it, great, if not buy a Fanged Ring, if you can't get that take INA. Though the only reason I can think that you wouldn't be able to buy the fanged ring is if you have VoPov or are too early a level to get it. It's far from a broken item you know.

Curmudgeon
2008-04-21, 09:20 PM
If you want to play a Monk-like unarmed combatant and have a decent amount of money, I recommend taking no actual Monk levels.

A Fanged Ring costs 10,000 gp. For that you get
Improved Unarmed Strike feat
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) feat
CON damage on an unarmed critical
Add a Monk's Belt for 13,000 gp and now you've got the unarmed damage of a 5th level Monk, +1 size increase. That's 2d6 if you're medium size, the same damage as a greatsword. Plus you get 1 + WIS bonus to your AC if unarmored.

Next you hire a couple of NPC spellcasters: get Greater Magic Fang for +5 unarmed attacks, and have Permanency put on it. Now you're +5 to hit, and do 2d6+5 base damage.

So far you've spent about 32,000 gp but zero feats and zero class levels. From this point on you can create any type of character you want. Want to run around with the speed of a Monk? One level of Cleric with the Celerity domain gives you +10' to your base speed, and Expeditious Retreat for an additional +30' enhancement. A 14th level Monk has the same +40' boost. Want extra attacks? Take Snap Kick and you get an extra strike with an unarmed full attack -- but you also get an extra unarmed attack with
every standard action melee attack
every attack of opportunity
every bonus attack, such as from Improved Trip
Do you want to do more unarmed damage than any Monk? Then take Rogue levels, and feats like Craven that enhance your sneak attack, and your average damage will put Monks to shame. Want Evasion and Slow Fall? Well, you can get Evasion with Rogue levels, or with a Ring of Evasion; and Feather Fall is better than Slow Fall.

With a Monk's Belt you're probably going to want Bracers of Armor and a decent WIS bonus; that's the same if as if you had actual Monk levels. If your DEX is better than your STR you'll want Weapon Finesse, too. But you've really got a lot of flexibility here. You can take Superior Unarmed Strike instead of buying a Monk's Belt, and you'll end up with the same base unarmed damage as a medium Monk up through level 19 (regardless of your size, so a nice boost if you pick a small race). That costs a feat but saves you some money, and lets you wear whatever armor works with your classes. Conversely, once you have any Monk levels, Superior Unarmed Strike pretty much forces you to continue until you've got 16 of them -- after which its benefit peters out.

So by all means, make a Monk-like character. Just don't take any actual Monk levels if you can afford not to.

dman11235
2008-04-21, 09:31 PM
With those two monk levels I just went from a measly 2d6 base damage to a potential of 32d8 (depends on PrCs, party make up, etc) And saved the money from that expensive Ring of Evasion. Still do GMW on the fists, so you get +5 (have your party's arcanist do that every morning, get him a Pearl of Power and have him use the second one on another party weapon). You also have +9 worth of enchantments on your fists thanks to the Necklace of Natural Attacks. The only items you need are the Monk's Belt and the Fanged Ring and the NoNA. The only feat is SUS. All for two class levels. The other way you need: Fanged Ring, IUS unless you don't want anything that has it as a prereq like FotF and such or if you want to be useless inside an AMF, SUS (oh, wait, that requires IUS!), Monk's Belt, Ring of Evasion, NoNA, and the party arcanist (or a couple NPCs that can have that bit dispelled). It takes so much more and gets you actually less than with the two monk levels. I did not take into account the speed thing because monk 2 doesn't get you anything and the cleric dip is, well, a level dip so a moot point. And slow fall is an ignored ability since no good monk build has more than 6 levels.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-22, 08:48 AM
Doesn't stack iirc. Two virtual increases will not stack (they refer to your base damage), but a virtual and a real, or two real increases (if the cause of the increases do stack) will stack. Hence, my bear monk. I love that build so much...
INA doesn't actually refer to base damage or actual size. It simply says "As if your size had increased by one category"

Therefore it will stack with a Battlefist unless explicitly stated otherwise, which it isn't.