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Frosty
2008-04-20, 12:05 PM
In terms of racial abilities, Dwarves typically are ranked as the high-end of LA +0. How do you guys thing Hellbreds compare? Getting +2 to Intimidate, and a free Devil's Favor feat is nice, and then you can either have 2 more free devil-touched feats and a +4 vs poison, or Super Darkvision, +2 Sense Motive, and free telepathy. You can also choose between +2 Con, -2 Int, or +2 Cha, -2 Con.

Do you think that's better or worse than Dwarf traits?

Gralamin
2008-04-20, 12:21 PM
I do not have my FC2 currently, but

{table=head]Dwarf|Hellbred(Body)|Hellbred(Mind)|Advantage?
+2 Con|+2 Con|+2 Cha|Con is overall more useful. Goes to Dwarf/Body
-2 Cha|-2 Int|-2 Con|Charisma is the dump stat. Goes to Dwarf
Darkvision 60 feet|No Special Sight|'Super Darkvision'|Goes to Mind
Stonecunning, Craft, Appraise|+2 Intimidate|+2 Intimidate, +2 Sense Motive|Dwarfs have the skill advantage.
+2 vs Poison, +2 vs Spells|+4 vs Poison|No Save enhancers|With the Spells gotta go with Dwarves
Weapon Familiarity(2 Feats)|Devil's Favor, 2 Restricted feats|Devil's Favor|Body has the feat advantage
Stability|No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Dwarves
+1 attack vs orcs & goblinoids|No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Dwarves
+4 to AC vs Giants|No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Dwarves
No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Telepathy|Mind[/table]
Totals: Dwarf 7, Body 2, Mind 2
Looking at this, Dwarves are ahead.

Name_Here
2008-04-20, 12:40 PM
Well I don't know if the devil-touched feats are any good but from what I see the hell-spawn get a stat boost to third or second tier attributes for a penalty that is on a higher tier. I mean Con boost for an Int penalty?

And super darkvision is the kind of thing that would be incredibly useful if you were actually a charecter in the world but for it to be useful the game becomes less fun for everybody else who isn't able to fight worth a damn in total darkness so it doesn't come up as often as it should.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 12:51 PM
Well I don't know if the devil-touched feats are any good but from what I see the hell-spawn get a stat boost to third or second tier attributes for a penalty that is on a higher tier. I mean Con boost for an Int penalty?

And super darkvision is the kind of thing that would be incredibly useful if you were actually a charecter in the world but for it to be useful the game becomes less fun for everybody else who isn't able to fight worth a damn in total darkness so it doesn't come up as often as it should.

Well, a Paladin probably wouldn't care about the Int penalty and would enjoy the Con bonus. And +2 Cha -2 Con is probably worth it for a caster or someone who really gets a lot out of Cha. I guess the 120ft Darkvision that can penetrate even magical darkness created by Deeper Darkness spell is good in campaigns vs demons and devils since a lot of them can create magical darkness.

What about vs Humans, the gold standard for race comparison? Arguably, Dwarves are uber (except for their 20 ft base speed), and probably should be LA +1 or have some abilities removed.

Bauglir
2008-04-20, 12:51 PM
Int's not all that useful if you aren't a Caster, Warblade, or skill monkey. Presumably, a Body Hellbred would be a melee combatant or Cha or Wis based caster, in which case the Int penalty is likely worth it.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 01:19 PM
The Body Hellbred seems to compare pretty favorably to the Dwarf. The two free Devil-Touched feats that you gain by 4th level even out the many advantages that the Dwarf gets.

The Dwarf still holds an edge due to its +2 to saving throws vs. spells, which is simply a superior ability.

The Spirit Hellbred is terrible.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 01:45 PM
Spirit is Arguably not as good as Body, but is it really horrid? I mean, are we talking half-elves or half-orcs level here?

Dullyanna
2008-04-20, 01:53 PM
@Frosty: Not really, IMO. It's a bit specialized, but part of that's because there aren't many races that get a CHA bonus, so they make good better than average diplomancers or sorcerors.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 01:57 PM
Spirit is Arguably not as good as Body, but is it really horrid? I mean, are we talking half-elves or half-orcs level here?

Let's compared the Spirit Hellbred to the Half-Elf:

Spirit Hellbred gets +2 Cha -2 Con, which is bad for almost any build. Having no stat adjustment is almost strictly better.

Spirit Hellbred gets +2 on Intimidate and Sense Motive, Half-Elf gets +2 on Gather Info and Diplomacy. Even.

Spirit Hellbred gets Evil Exception and Hellbound. Let's call that a wash, though it's easy to argue that Hellbound is more of a disadvantage than Evil Exception is an advantage.

Spirit Hellbred gets Devil's Favor, which is not all that useful for a non-combat build, and no more free bonus Devil-Touched feats like the Body Hellbred to make it a stronger bonus.

Half-Elf gets LLV, Spirit Hellbred gets Darkvision. Slight advantage Hellbred.

Spirit Hellbred gets Telepathy at 15th level. Neat, but really late to be getting it.

Spirit Hellbred has FC: Paladin. Half-Elf has FC: Any. Slight advantage Half-Elf.

Half-Elf gets Trance, Immunity to Sleep, and +2 saves vs. Enchantments. Advantage Half-Elf

Half-Elf gets +1 to Listen, Search, and Spot. Advantage Half-Elf.

Half-Elf gets Elven Blood racial feature.


Thus we can see that the Spirit Hellbred compares unfavorably to a Half-Elf.

That's terrible.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 02:03 PM
Spirit Hellbred gets +2 Cha -2 Con, which is bad for any build. Having no stat adjustment is almost strictly better.

Explain plz.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-20, 02:06 PM
A CON penalty is bad for anybody, because everybody uses HP.

NecroRebel
2008-04-20, 02:10 PM
Con penalties mean less hit points per level, which means less durability, which means you die more easily, which means your character is easier to remove from a battle, which means that you are less likely to contribute every round of a battle, which means that you're significantly less valuable to your allies.

Simply put, CON is a stat that literally every character needs high, and most optimizers will say that it should be every character's second or third highest stat, depending on their class and role. Losing CON is never not a Bad Thing, while losing CHA is actually negligible unless you're playing a CHA-based caster.

Dullyanna
2008-04-20, 02:15 PM
Everybody loves HP, but some classes shouldn't worry about it. The best example that comes to mind would be a Bard, which probably won't be targeted before the wizard, or the big bad warblade. Also, I think a constant bonus to CHA is more useful to casters that rely on it than a constant bonus to CON.

Jack Mann
2008-04-20, 02:16 PM
+2 Charisma, -2 Constitution is actually pretty damned good. Sure, a sorcerer wants decent constitution. But he wants more powerful spells even more. And there are a fair number of other builds that utilize charisma to that extent. Save monkeys, characters who can get constitution to AC, all sorts of combos. For most classes, constitution is more important, but that doesn't mean that there aren't enough exceptions. And considering that at least one of those exceptions is a full spellcaster, I think that's a significant gain.

After all, no one rags too much on the gray elf, who loses constitution, but gains intelligence for his wizard spellcasting. Sorcerers may be a bit behind wizards, but worst of the best is still one of the best.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 02:53 PM
+2 Charisma, -2 Constitution is actually pretty damned good. Sure, a sorcerer wants decent constitution. But he wants more powerful spells even more.

-2 Con is -1 on Fort saves, Concentration checks, and -1 HP per level, all things that are quite painful to a Sorcerer. I will agree that +1 to the DC on all the Sorc's spells and a bonus spell or two is nice, but IMO the 5% increased chance of failing a Fort save is not worth the 5% increase in enemies failing their saves against your spells. Remember that we're talking about a Sorc here, not a Wizard with lots of spell choices, so your defenses are simply not as good, unless you are focusing on taking defensive buffs that you can share with the party. For a defensively-focused Sorc, +2 Cha -2 Con does work, but that is a single rather specific build and the DC increase isn't as important then anyway.

And I did state that it was "almost strictly better", which left room for such specific builds.


And there are a fair number of other builds that utilize charisma to that extent. Save monkeys, all sorts of combos.

True, there are save monkey builds like the Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard who would love to have the extra +2 Cha. But even for that build, the loss of 1 HP per level hurts.

Try and think of some other builds that it helps - there aren't many. Super Cha save monkey and defensive Sorc, and what else?


, characters who can get constitution to AC

I'm assuming you meant charisma to AC here.


For most classes, constitution is more important, but that doesn't mean that there aren't enough exceptions. And considering that at least one of those exceptions is a full spellcaster, I think that's a significant gain.

It's a small gain for a few very specific builds.


After all, no one rags too much on the gray elf, who loses constitution, but gains intelligence for his wizard spellcasting. Sorcerers may be a bit behind wizards, but worst of the best is still one of the best.

The Gray Elf also gets -2 Str and +2 Dex, which mitigates the Con loss with +1 to Initiative and AC, as well as giving a bonus on Reflex saves and ranged magical attacks. If a Gray Elf got only +2 Int -2 Con, it would not be as vaunted.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 03:06 PM
A 28 point-buy Sorc can get 18 Cha, 14 Con, 12 Dex, 10 Int, 8 Str, 8 Wis before mods. A Sorc with +2 Cha, -2 Con can get 18 Cha, 14 Con, 14 Dex, 10 Int, 8 Str, 8 Wis on the same buy.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 03:19 PM
-2 Con is -1 on Fort saves, Concentration checks, and -1 HP per level, all things that are quite painful to a Sorcerer. I will agree that +1 to the DC on all the Sorc's spells and a bonus spell or two is nice, but IMO the 5% increased chance of failing a Fort save is not worth the 5% increase in enemies failing their saves against your spells. Remember that we're talking about a Sorc here, not a Wizard with lots of spell choices, so your defenses are simply not as good, unless you are focusing on taking defensive buffs that you can share with the party. For a defensively-focused Sorc, +2 Cha -2 Con does work, but that is a single rather specific build and the DC increase isn't as important then anyway.

And I did state that it was "almost strictly better", which left room for such specific builds.

True, there are save monkey builds like the Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard who would love to have the extra +2 Cha. But even for that build, the loss of 1 HP per level hurts.

Try and think of some other builds that it helps - there aren't many. Super Cha save monkey and defensive Sorc, and what else?



I'm assuming you meant charisma to AC here.



It's a small gain for a few very specific builds.



The Gray Elf also gets -2 Str and +2 Dex, which mitigates the Con loss with +1 to Initiative and AC, as well as giving a bonus on Reflex saves and ranged magical attacks. If a Gray Elf got only +2 Int -2 Con, it would not be as vaunted.

So you'd say that Sun Elves suck, thanks to only have +2 Int and -2 Con? And that Spirit Aspect is only good ofr those builds that can get a *lot* out of Cha, like Paladins?

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 03:25 PM
So you'd say that Sun Elves suck, thanks to only have +2 Int and -2 Con? And that Spirit Aspect is only good ofr those builds that can get a *lot* out of Cha, like Paladins?

I never said that +2 Cha -2 Con "sucked", just that a flat stat adjustment was IMO better by a small margin - going by rolling for stats, of course. As sstoopid pointed out, with a point buy system +2 -2 stat becomes more useful during character creation, but the default setting is to assume rolling for stats.

If a Sun Elf had +2 Cha -2 Con, I would not consider it much better or much worse than having no stat adjustment. Perhaps slightly worse overall, due to the reasons I posted above.

In the end, a +2 or -2 stat adjustment means little anyway.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 03:38 PM
The Gray Elf also gets -2 Str and +2 Dex, which mitigates the Con loss with +1 to Initiative and AC, as well as giving a bonus on Reflex saves and ranged magical attacks. If a Gray Elf got only +2 Int -2 Con, it would not be as vaunted.Certainly, +dex is nice, and -str hardly affects a wizard at all, but grey elves are still preferred over halflings as wizards, and the only advantage a grey elf has over a halfling is the +int -con. And halflings also get a smattering of other nice bonuses (+1 AC and attack and +4 Hide from size, +1 racial to all saves, and a few spells count as thrown weapons)

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 03:41 PM
Certainly, +dex is nice, and -str hardly affects a wizard at all, but grey elves are still preferred over halflings as wizards, and the only advantage a grey elf has over a halfling is the +int -con. And halflings also get a smattering of other nice bonuses (+1 AC and attack and +4 Hide from size, +1 racial to all saves, and a few spells count as thrown weapons)

True, but as I stated before, +2 Cha -2 Con is not the same thing as +2 Int -2 Con; a Wizard has more defensive prowess than a Sorcerer who is not focused heavily on defensive spells, and so needs that Con less than a Sorc does.

Simply put, Sorcs are a bit more Con-dependent than Wizards are.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 03:43 PM
True, but as I stated before, +2 Cha -2 Con is not the same thing as +2 Int -2 Con; a Wizard has more defensive prowess than a Sorcerer who is not focused heavily on defensive spells, and so needs that Con less than a Sorc does.

Simply put, Sorcs are a bit more Con-dependent than Wizards are.But as I showed, that stat mod really doesn't matter in point-buy.

hamishspence
2008-04-20, 03:45 PM
it will if player insists on a 20 in his bonus stat. I fear I have that tendency: maybe because my games tend to be solo wizard, which is not easy at 1st level.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 03:48 PM
But as I showed, that stat mod really doesn't matter in point-buy.

Right, but as I already stated, I am assuming rolling for stats, which is the default method of attribute assignment.

For point buy, you are absolutely correct.

holywhippet
2008-04-20, 03:54 PM
What about vs Humans, the gold standard for race comparison? Arguably, Dwarves are uber (except for their 20 ft base speed), and probably should be LA +1 or have some abilities removed.

You are forgetting that humans can have any class as their preferred one making fancy multiclassing with the XP penalty a lot easier. This lets you pull off all kinds of tricks like giving a monk an initial level in sorcerer/wizard so that you can use mage armour and/or shield for a sweet AC bonus.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 04:13 PM
Right, but as I already stated, I am assuming rolling for stats, which is the default method of attribute assignment.Even with rolled stats, any balanced ability score adjustment is good, if the bonus is to the stat you want to be the highest. You just put a higher roll in the thing that gets the penalty than you would otherwise. So long as scores closer to average are more common than extreme scores (which will be the case in almost any stat generation method, including point buy and rolling), ability score adjustments will help you.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 04:34 PM
You are forgetting that humans can have any class as their preferred one making fancy multiclassing with the XP penalty a lot easier. This lets you pull off all kinds of tricks like giving a monk an initial level in sorcerer/wizard so that you can use mage armour and/or shield for a sweet AC bonus.

I never play with Muliclass XP penalties, so that is not a factor for me at all.

AmberVael
2008-04-20, 05:28 PM
I think, and have thought for quite some time, that dwarves are overrated.
Please do not make the mistake of thinking that I mean they are bad- Dwarves are still one of the best races out there- but it is my opinion that people hype them too much.
Let me explain.

Dwarves gain +2 Constitution and -2 Charisma as racial ability adjustments. Quite honestly, yes, this is good. But with any good build, you're going to be slanting and adjusting your stats to be optimize- in the end, you're only getting a +2 and -2. It's not horrifically unbalanced- it's good, yes, you have one of the best scores with a bonus, and one of the worst scores with a penalty, but in the end, is it really going to matter to Grog the half-orc if he loses intelligence and charisma? If used correctly, any race will be effective at its targeted (which is not the same as favored, in my opinion) class. The Dwarven modifiers merely cement them in a more combative and less social role (typically).
Still, this IS one of the good traits. It's just not 'omg awesome.'

Base land speed. 20ft movement- you get a -10 penalty with none of the bonuses of the small races. You get less combat maneuverability and chance to get somewhere quickly. People say its fine because they still move this fast with a heavy load or the like, but the thing is- as a medium sized person, you're supposed to be moving that fast anyways. You're not getting a bonus with that, it's just negating half of the penalty. Congrats, you move normal speed when you are overloaded and should be moving slowly. In the end, being able to take advantage of an unarmored state is far more useful than taking advantage of an armored state, because unarmored is when you are most maneuverable and can use your dex bonus without penalty.

Darkvision: Good, but common.

Stone cunning. You know about stone. Handy for the finding traps part, but if you're any good with that (or even doing that) you'll be a rogue and will already be able to find traps, stonecunning or no. Elves have far better senses, and aren't limited to the type of area and surroundings. This is too limited in use.

Weapon Familiarity. You get the dwarven waraxe. An average bonus of +1 damage IF you're using a one handed weapon, which isn't exactly an optimal choice. Yes its a bonus. No, it's not an extraordinarily useful one. If I'm a dwarf, I'll be using a greatsword, thank you.

Stability. Avoid two combat actions- one of which comes into play so infrequently it might as well not exist, and the other of which is used only by diabolical cackling people with too many feats and a strange obsession with spikey chains, in which case that +4 bonus isn't really going to help you that much, because that is their entire focus.

Saving throw against poison. Eh. It's +2. By the time your enemies can afford poison, you'll be able to make the save without that +2. IF they have it before then, I doubt that +2 will make much difference. It is a small circumstance bonus that won't come into play often and even when it does, will likely not be needed or even useful.

Saving throw against spells. Win. I've got nothing bad to say about this, it's just like someone came up to you and said "here, have a diamond, free of charge."

Racial combat modifiers: wtf? They weren't good for the ranger, and they aren't good here, either. Woohoo, I can hit orcs and goblins a little better. Not much, just a little. An extra 5% chance. Do you really fight orcs and goblins enough for it to matter?
+4 dodge against giants! Well, wait, wait, let me think about something. I made a giant chart of how a person who maximized their AC would be having good trouble anyways. One of the biggest (but not only) examples of why?
Giants. Giants get such huge bonuses to hit- it's kind of bad to tangle with them. AC scales so slowly that even with your little +4, it's not going to do much. Also, how often do you fight giants? Will you REALLY use this all that much?

+2 appraise and craft to stone objects.
1) Appraise? Yeah, fine, except dwarves are in a combat role. How many skill points will they have? How often will they find valuable STONE objects? Metal, yes, stone? No. Kind of a waste.
2) Craft. Um... no? Craft is a horrible waste of time. Pay the extra money, just buy it from someone else.

Yes, Dwarves get tons of bonuses- yes, they add up. But so many are circumstantial that they're hardly worth the bookkeeping to remember that you have them. If I were a dwarf, I'd trade all of my bonuses to skills and against racial foes to get my 30ft speed back.

Reinboom
2008-04-20, 05:41 PM
I do not have my FC2 currently, but

{table=head]Dwarf|Hellbred(Body)|Hellbred(Mind)|Advantage?
+2 Con|+2 Con|+2 Cha|Con is overall more useful. Goes to Dwarf/Body
-2 Cha|-2 Int|-2 Con|Charisma is the dump stat. Goes to Dwarf
Darkvision 60 feet|No Special Sight|'Super Darkvision'|Goes to Mind
Stonecunning, Craft, Appraise|+2 Intimidate|+2 Intimidate, +2 Sense Motive|Dwarfs have the skill advantage.
+2 vs Poison, +2 vs Spells|+4 vs Poison|No Save enhancers|With the Spells gotta go with Dwarves
Weapon Familiarity(2 Feats)|Devil's Favor, 2 Restricted feats|Devil's Favor|Body has the feat advantage
Stability|No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Dwarves
+1 attack vs orcs & goblinoids|No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Dwarves
+4 to AC vs Giants|No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Dwarves
No Equivalent|No Equivalent|Telepathy|Mind[/table]
Totals: Dwarf 7, Body 2, Mind 2
Looking at this, Dwarves are ahead.

Those totals are suggesting that all abilities are equal.
I would not rate the +1 vs orcs and goblis, or the +4 ac vs giants as even worthy of .1, personally.
Also, +2 Intimidate +2 SM I find is far more usable than Stonecutting, Craft, and Appraise.

Also, you left out 'Evil Exception'. (Which I wouldn't even consider - however you considered the goblis, orcs, and giants thing..)

AmberVael
2008-04-20, 05:44 PM
I personally like Evil Exception, if only because being able to have a character with a Holy Unholy sword is just nifty. :smalltongue:

Talya
2008-04-20, 06:12 PM
IMO the 5% increased chance of failing a Fort save is not worth the 5% increase in enemies failing their saves against your spells.


Any decent Sorcerer that can cast 4th level spells can't fail saves except on natural 1s. PRCs + Charisma are the reasons.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 06:24 PM
Any decent Sorcerer that can cast 4th level spells can't fail saves except on natural 1s. PRCs + Charisma are the reasons.

What combination of spells/class features are you referring to?

Talya
2008-04-20, 06:26 PM
What combination of spells/class features are you referring to?

Sorcerers tend to load up on full caster progression PrCs, since sorcerer casting is all the base class gives. A number of those PrCs give high fortitude progression.

Any sorcerer who doesn't take the spell "Ruin Delver's Fortune" better be in a core-only game, because it's god for sorcerers.

Edit: For reference, my level 15 sorceress has saves, after casting RDF as appropriate, of Fort + 24, Ref +25, Will +28. And climbing, rapidly. (By level 20, they'll be between +4 to +6 more than they are now...and that's without any further boosts from gear -- I use a vestement with +4 resistance bonuses.) If I could take +2 to cha for -2 to con, right now, I'd do it without hesitating. My saves end up staying the same, but my spell DC goes up even further.

Reinboom
2008-04-20, 06:35 PM
Any decent Sorcerer that can cast 4th level spells can't fail saves except on natural 1s. PRCs + Charisma are the reasons.

4th level spells, so, level 8 (7 if you are a ritualing kobold, 6 if you are a kobold that optimizes a bit too much, I'll stick to the 8 - this is for hellbred afterall).

14 Con, +2 Item (16, so, +3 bonus to fort thus far), 20 Charisma, +2 item (+6 Bonus, on to delvar's fortune, so, +9 bonus to fort so far), +2 class bonus to fort (+11), Greater Resistance spell (+14).

Push on another 2 charisma for the hellbred, but drop 2 con. (+14), again.

I don't think every sorcerer will push it that far (delvar's aside, it's a semi requirement since its existance).
So, I would say about +12 Fort for most 'decent' sorcerers.

(spoilered out since I was typing out the post)
For prestige classes... if you are talking about the heartwarder...
6 Diplomacy skill points, so, as a sorcerer you need to have Skill Knowledge in it, or you can't get it before level 10. On top of that...
Dodge, Mobility, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (whip).
Are all reqs.
That's 5 feats, or 4 feats if the DM houserules to give sorcerers diplomacy.
1st level, doge, 3rd, SF, 6th, EWP, and the armor upgrade that gives mobility?

I do not think heartwarder, if that is indeed what you are talking about when you say 'prestige class', should be considered as a requirement for 'decent sorcerer', in much the same way not every decent sorcerer is a Loredrake greater draconic ritualed kobold.
=edited in=

Which prestige classes are you referring to for high fort progressions?


===
For closer to topic,
the devil touched feats are not that bad when you are getting them for free. For that, I would consider (body) to be more useful overall than a dwarf.
Especially since the 20 feet vs 30 feet issue is significant to me. Mobility (not the feat) is quite powerful/handy.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 06:38 PM
Sorcerers tend to load up on full caster progression PrCs, since sorcerer casting is all the base class gives. A number of those PrCs give high fortitude progression.

AFAIK, there aren't that many full casting progression PrCs that have good Fort saves. Could you name a few?


Any sorcerer who doesn't take the spell "Ruin Delver's Fortune" better be in a core-only game, because it's god for sorcerers.

Yes, that is a nice spell for a Sorcerer to have, that is true. However, you cannot have it up all the time, as it only lasts 1d4 rounds. You would burn through spell slots quite quickly if you used it for every save you're going to make in a day.


Edit: For reference, my level 15 sorceress has saves, after casting RDF as appropriate, of Fort + 24, Ref +25, Will +28. And climbing, rapidly. (By level 20, they'll be between +4 to +6 more than they are now...and that's without any further boosts from gear -- I use a vestement with +4 resistance bonuses.) If I could take +2 to cha for -2 to con, right now, I'd do it without hesitating. My saves end up staying the same, but my spell DC goes up even further.

You stated before that a level 8 Sorcerer (not level 15) would only fail saves on a 1. That is obviously incredibly hyperbolic, as RDF can only be cast a handful of times per day, if you are using all of your top-tier slots on defensive spells, which is typically not a good idea.

Reinboom
2008-04-20, 06:40 PM
Yes, that is a nice spell for a Sorcerer to have, that is true. However, you cannot have it up all the time, as it only lasts 1d4 rounds. You would burn through spell slots quite quickly if you used it for every save you're going to make in a day.

You stated before that a level 8 Sorcerer (not level 15) would only fail saves on a 1. That is obviously incredibly hyperbolic, as RDF can only be cast a handful of times per day, if you are using all of your top-tier slots on defensive spells, which is typically not a good idea.

You must make a lot more saves than I at least do in a day.

holywhippet
2008-04-20, 06:43 PM
Dwarves gain +2 Constitution and -2 Charisma as racial ability adjustments. Quite honestly, yes, this is good. But with any good build, you're going to be slanting and adjusting your stats to be optimize- in the end, you're only getting a +2 and -2. It's not horrifically unbalanced- it's good, yes, you have one of the best scores with a bonus, and one of the worst scores with a penalty, but in the end, is it really going to matter to Grog the half-orc if he loses intelligence and charisma? If used correctly, any race will be effective at its targeted (which is not the same as favored, in my opinion) class. The Dwarven modifiers merely cement them in a more combative and less social role (typically).
Still, this IS one of the good traits. It's just not 'omg awesome.'


It's more useful if you are using a point buy system rather than rolling for stats. Going from 14 to 16 CON will cost 4 build points if you do it normally. If you let the CON bonus do it, you can spend those 4 points on something else. Likewise, going from 16 to 18 costs 8 build points which you could use one something else if you let your CON bonus do the work.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 06:45 PM
You must make a lot more saves than I at least do in a day.

An 8th level Sorcerer gets max five 4th level spell slots a day. You've never had to make 5 saves in a day?

And that's assuming that you're blowing all of your top-tier spell slots on RDF.

Talya
2008-04-20, 06:52 PM
Which prestige classes are you referring to for high fort progressions?


A very quick look shows me these Full Arcane Caster Progression (or mostly full, so long as they don't lose a caster level at level one, since they can be used to boost saves without losing a damn thing otherwise) PrCs with high Fortitude Saves. I'm sure there are more, and there are a lot more PrCs you might want to take that don't have high fort saves, but there are good odds that you'll end up boosting your saves through PrCs as a sorcerer, as the class provides nothing beyond the level it lets you qualify for a PrC.

Alienist (CArc)
Blood Magus (CArc - 8/10 progression, no loss at 1)
Divine Oracle (CDiv)
Geomancer (CDiv)
Heartwarder (FR Faiths & Pantheons)
MindBender (CArc - 1/2 progression, but no loss at 1)
Seeker of the Misty Isle (CDiv - 8/10 progression, no loss at 1)

Talya
2008-04-20, 06:53 PM
An 8th level Sorcerer gets max five 4th level spell slots a day. You've never had to make 5 saves in a day?

And that's assuming that you're blowing all of your top-tier spell slots on RDF.

The buff lasts 1d4 rounds. But you're right, that's what spellcraft is for. You use RDF against those attacks you can't afford not to save.

AmberVael
2008-04-20, 07:00 PM
It's more useful if you are using a point buy system rather than rolling for stats. Going from 14 to 16 CON will cost 4 build points if you do it normally. If you let the CON bonus do it, you can spend those 4 points on something else. Likewise, going from 16 to 18 costs 8 build points which you could use one something else if you let your CON bonus do the work.

But using point buy isn't going to help at ALL with your dump stats, which is really the only bonus that Dwarf ability scores give. I can find other races with +2 Con- your argument is invalid there. It's the ability to dump a certain stat that makes them so good- I can't find many races with +2 Con and -2 Cha.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 07:02 PM
Geomancer isn't really full progression, though, since you need arcane and divine spells to get in (and then it has the nerve to only advance one of them). So you're probably losing three levels before you even start on the class, unless you're using some early-entry trick.

Talya
2008-04-20, 07:09 PM
You must make a lot more saves than I at least do in a day.

Not only that, but if it's the first level 4 spell you take, it's the only level 4 spell you've got. What else are you going to use it on?

Talya
2008-04-20, 07:21 PM
Geomancer isn't really full progressionp

Granted. As I said, it was a "quick" look. ;)

I knew heartwarder by ...uh...heart...but didn't go looking through the book she's in, so here's some more (after scanning Faiths & Pantheons and Player's Guide to Faerun):
Auspician (FR Faiths & Pantheons)
Dreadmaster (FR Faiths & Pantheons)
Elemental Archon (FR Faiths & Pantheons - 7/10, but full progression for the first few levels)
Goldeye (FR Faiths & Pantheons)
Hathran (PGtF)
Nightcloak (FR Faiths & Pantheons)
Strifeleader (FR Faiths & Pantheons - 7/10, but full progression for the first few levels)
Techsmith (FR Faiths & Pantheons)

Reinboom
2008-04-20, 07:30 PM
Not only that, but if it's the first level 4 spell you take, it's the only level 4 spell you've got. What else are you going to use it on?

Er? The line you quoted wasn't in response or towards you at all.
For you to be quoting it, the context has changed - unless you are quoting me to agree with me as a response to JaxGaret (since I typed that line in a semi-agreement style statement to you, I don't make many saves). Then I guess that would work.
Argh, silly forums making context difficult.


Anyways, most of the prestige classes you labeled nearly require the sorcerer to have 12+ int, and to take a lot of different feats that most sorcerers won't be able to grab by then. OR, have requirements that are difficult to persue since a lot of DMs don't like waiving stuff (argh at the blood magus). The best fills in there are the Alienist and the Mindbender. I would still not make them requirements at being a 'decent' sorcerer, since there are other prestige classes that are still notable.

Although the Alienist and Mindbender would both fit a Hellbred rather well, I think. Hmm.

Talya
2008-04-20, 07:36 PM
Er? The line you quoted wasn't in response or towards you at all.
For you to be quoting it, the context has changed - unless you are quoting me to agree with me as a response to JaxGaret (since I typed that line in a semi-agreement style statement to you, I don't make many saves). Then I guess that would work.
Argh, silly forums making context difficult.

Yes, i was agreeing with you. I don't generally get to make that many fortitude saves in a day, but also pointing out, in addition, if that's your first fourth level spell, why would anyone worry about blowing all of your spell slots on RFD even if they did have to make a bunch of saves?

And I just posted a bunch more PrCs that work in various situations.