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Frosty
2008-04-20, 01:51 PM
I've seen some people state that HP gets progressively less and less important as you level up and face tougher opponents due to the myriad of status effects and save-or-dies that get thrown around. Does that mean if I'm building a front-line melee-type starting at a high level, I can actually dump Con? I'm thinking of leaving Con at 10 or 12. I mean, is 150 HP too small of an HP pool for level 16 or 17? I'll have a great AC, and I've got Evasion as well.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 02:02 PM
What exactly is the build?

Don't forget that you want to keep your Fort save high as well.

drengnikrafe
2008-04-20, 02:06 PM
I've never been in a very high level campaign, but I can see where thoughts like that would come from.
So, from my very limited pool of logic, I'd say don't be stupid with it. If you have a wizard with a Con of 5, then all it takes is a quickened magic missle and you're down and out at almost any level. As a swift action, no less...

Starbuck_II
2008-04-20, 02:21 PM
I've seen some people state that HP gets progressively less and less important as you level up and face tougher opponents due to the myriad of status effects and save-or-dies that get thrown around. Does that mean if I'm building a front-line melee-type starting at a high level, I can actually dump Con? I'm thinking of leaving Con at 10 or 12. I mean, is 150 HP too small of an HP pool for level 16 or 17? I'll have a great AC, and I've got Evasion as well.

I think these people would need to explain their beliefs.

It is easy to get Saves high so you fail Save or dies rarely (Cloak adds +5, add in Good Con).
Con has too many benefits in 3.5: Fort Save, Hp, Concentration (at lower levels).

This is the reason why Green Star Adept 10 is so poorly regarded: Losin' Con is just bad. like making lemonades outta carrots: It just ain't right.

You lose with 20 Con (easy by lv 16) 5 hps/level, or 80 hps. Meaning you gain 1.5 your total hps.

In order to not need Con you need:
1) Fort save boosters, the Cloak +5 resistance is needed in addition to good Con. To remove the Con is just insult to injury.
2) Displacement or another 50% miss chance. Thus effectively doubles hps (since when miss they would have hit; you saved hps)
3) Improved Evasion or Evasion and really good Reflex: If you fail reflex save, without Improved Evasion, that could kill you (5 fireballs caster 10+ on average kill you I notice).
With the Con boost, you'll be hurting but okay, but without yeah, that'll be bad.
4) Good AC: Melee guys care little about evasion when attacking you. And they will eventually hit you.
5) DR so when they do hit you, you won't feel it as bad.

Granted, these suggestions are useful in general.

In truth, I've never thought about trying to survive without Con: it sounds pretty tough.

graymachine
2008-04-20, 02:36 PM
I would say that you probably want to be somewhat higher than 150 as a meat shield; around 200 at that level would be safe I think. What you're looking for at that level in terms of defense is increase the miss chance against you and developing your SR. Good HP, good saves, and maybe a bit of DR to take the edge off of hits, but there's just a point where raising your AC isn't worth it. If you can, boost your touch AC as much as possible.

Dullyanna
2008-04-20, 02:36 PM
It depends on your class, and how much freedom you have in allocating your stats. Con should never take priority over your main stat in any class, but for anybody who'll be engaging in melee, it should be at 14, at the very least. That'll give you 40 more hp at level 20.

Edit:@Greymachine: At higher levels, you shouldn't make an astronomical AC the main focus of your build, but you should keep it reasonably high. It can still make a difference, after all.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-20, 02:45 PM
Depends on the DM and how you play, mostly.

Your play style:
If you play as a front-line tank, you need HP, lots of it, simply because you'll be in close-quarters with bruisers who'll be pounding you for absurd amounts.

If you play as a rear-guard archer (this includes wizards who stay at the back and cast spells), then your main goal is to avoid HP damage - if the bruiser gets to you, you've pretty much already lost the battle anyway.

DM's play style:
If your DM plays around with a lot of save or lose effects, then your HP doesn't matter nearly as much as your saves do - but then, as Con is your Fort save, and that's one of the more important saves, you can't dump it anyway.

If your DM avoids save or lose effects in favor of direct damage effects, then of course your HP matters - a lot; don't dump Con.

Note:
In either case of DM style, you can't really afford to dump con.

Dr Bwaa
2008-04-20, 02:50 PM
Another thing to watch out for is Power Words. Low HP is an invitation to get a full-health melee character PW Stunned or worse.

Nikolai_II
2008-04-20, 02:52 PM
Yeah, it all depends on your point build, but as a fighter you'd be hard-pressed to not put 6 points on Con if your build is 32 or higher.

It's simply so useful all the way up. It could possibly be waived if your DM has a sensible hit-point allocation system, but not if he uses the standard ones (randomness is too great by dice, or you suffer too much from the fairly common allocation of 1/2+1)

Frosty
2008-04-20, 03:17 PM
Well, basically speaking, I'm immune to Power Words because I am immune to Compulsion effects thanks to Paladin of Freedom. I've got an AC of 50, and my saves range from the mid-twenties for my Fort and Reflex to the mid-thirties for my Will. Even in mid-twenties, I should be able to make a Reflex save most of the time.

My basic premise is to tank by having that absurdly-high AC. Even if a monster hits me, he probably won't do much because of Negate Power Attack from Elusive Target. I will probably never fail a Will save except on a 1, and I'm most likely better off than the rest of my group in terms of Fortitude.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 03:45 PM
In that case, it might work, especially given the Cha to saves. Just don't go around Heedless Charging with Robilar's Gambit, and you should be OK. You also have the capability to heal a large chunk of HP at once, should something get through with a lucky scythe crit or something.

You do still want to get some miss chance to supplement that AC, though. There are still a few things that can hit that, and anything can hit (and threaten a crit) on a natural 20.

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 03:46 PM
Well, basically speaking, I'm immune to Power Words because I am immune to Compulsion effects thanks to Paladin of Freedom. I've got an AC of 50, and my saves range from the mid-twenties for my Fort and Reflex to the mid-thirties for my Will. Even in mid-twenties, I should be able to make a Reflex save most of the time.

My basic premise is to tank by having that absurdly-high AC. Even if a monster hits me, he probably won't do much because of Negate Power Attack from Elusive Target. I will probably never fail a Will save except on a 1, and I'm most likely better off than the rest of my group in terms of Fortitude.

Sounds reasonable to me, but I would still recommend a 12 or 14 in Con.

Pironious
2008-04-20, 04:07 PM
I've got a 14th level melee character with a con of 12. Rogue/Swashbuckler/Duelist.

I'm focussed on AC, so most battles generally go with the character either untouched, or below 50% hit points, because when she gets hit, she always feels it.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 04:33 PM
In that case, it might work, especially given the Cha to saves. Just don't go around Heedless Charging with Robilar's Gambit, and you should be OK. You also have the capability to heal a large chunk of HP at once, should something get through with a lucky scythe crit or something.

You do still want to get some miss chance to supplement that AC, though. There are still a few things that can hit that, and anything can hit (and threaten a crit) on a natural 20.

Well, I can always have a friendly wizard cast Displacement or something. And yeah, I'm a charger, but I'm not a shock-trooper, so I'm fine with regards to that. I won't be dumping my AC for anything.

I wonder what the averga damage of a CR 17 enemy is. I can probably survive at least 7 hits.

With only mediocre HP, high AC and high saves, what do I need to watch out for the most? If a Pit Fiend spams Blasphemy, I'm probably boned becasue I'll be perma-dazed. But then, Blasphemy-spammage is a sign of a bad DM.

FinalJustice
2008-04-20, 04:58 PM
Favor of the Martyr is a 4th level Pally Spell that gives you immunity to daze, try to get it as a spell, a wand or even some scrolls.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-20, 05:27 PM
Well, I can always have a friendly wizard cast Displacement or something. And yeah, I'm a charger, but I'm not a shock-trooper, so I'm fine with regards to that. I won't be dumping my AC for anything.

I wonder what the averga damage of a CR 17 enemy is. I can probably survive at least 7 hits.

With only mediocre HP, high AC and high saves, what do I need to watch out for the most? If a Pit Fiend spams Blasphemy, I'm probably boned becasue I'll be perma-dazed. But then, Blasphemy-spammage is a sign of a bad DM.

Let's see...

A Maralith is CR 17, and has a full attack line of: Primary longsword +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (2d6+9/19-20) and 5 longswords +25 melee (2d6+4/19-20) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4); or 6 slams +24 melee (1d8+9) and tail slap +22 melee (4d6+4)

Now, as she can only hit you on a 20 anyway, she may as well Power Attack for full. So that's 2d6+25 (nine attempts/round) and a tail slap for 4d6+20. You're expected to take a hit every other round for about 32 damage/hit; roughly 16 damage per round.

A Very Old White is looking at 2d8+10/2d6+5/2d6+5/1d8+5/1d8+5/2d6+5; can hit you on a 15 or better for the first, 17 or better for the rest (assuming Multiattack) - but that's before the 7th level Sorcerer spellcasting (let's hope he doesn't take Wraithstrike or some such...). You're expected to take 16.7 damage per round (ignoring crits and Power Attack).

By the way - how'd you get your AC to 50?

Flickerdart
2008-04-20, 05:28 PM
You could always grab a few spells that give you temporary HP. It won't be a lot, but scour supplements for Paladin temporary hit point spells.

Recaiden
2008-04-20, 05:44 PM
Most CR 17 monsters cann't hit AC 50 except of a crit, unless the DM thinks to change their spells to wraithstrike or something. With that AC, low HP should be fine.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 06:21 PM
Now, as she can only hit you on a 20 anyway, she may as well Power Attack for full. So that's 2d6+25 (nine attempts/round) and a tail slap for 4d6+20. You're expected to take a hit every other round for about 32 damage/hit; roughly 16 damage per round.

A Very Old White is looking at 2d8+10/2d6+5/2d6+5/1d8+5/1d8+5/2d6+5; can hit you on a 15 or better for the first, 17 or better for the rest (assuming Multiattack) - but that's before the 7th level Sorcerer spellcasting (let's hope he doesn't take Wraithstrike or some such...). You're expected to take 16.7 damage per round (ignoring crits and Power Attack).

By the way - how'd you get your AC to 50?

Power Attack doesn;'t work because of Elusive Target, so the Marilith really is doing a lot less than 16 a round. Wraithstrike would help...but not by much. My Touch AC is in the 40s. My DM allowed Monk and Swordsage AC bonus to attack because it's a High powered campaign.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 06:32 PM
The biggest problem would be blasting-happy NPCs. While blasting is generally regarded as subpar here, fact is that non-optimized NPCs as well as a number of magical monsters still have a variety of area effect spells memorized and it doesn't take too many empowered maximized D6 spells to kill you. Also, further see Orbs (unless you can rocket your touch AC to the sky). Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Breath Weapons.

Frankly, I'd never adventure on high levels without at least a 200 life buffer (admittedly, a 10 Con char in a martial class could get that through Con +6 item), since that's generally what the focused, but not cheesed, martial characters are capable of at that point (and they'll always hit on 20 anyways without Epic rules, so dying to one hit gives you a 5% per attack chance of dying, while being able to take two drops that to 0.25%). However, it may be interesting to play a more fragile character and you've got pretty good support for such in the making (although high Reflex-save, Evasion and high Touch AC are really helpful, of which I'm not sure if you possess them), so go ahead and try.


Personally I'm playing a Con 12 Skirmish Dervish right now and doing rather fine; thanks to Skirmish, Elaborate Parry, Combat Expertise, Expeditious Dodge and highly defensive equipment, I've got Touch AC in the mid 40s when maxing along with normal AC in the mid 50s (that's with full defensive combat though, which obviously doesn't work before initiative; however, thanks to Dervish, Scout, Swordsage and maxed Dex, I've got little problems with that) on level 14. So far I've died only once (and was resurrected afterwards), which was in a fight against a very high leveled Lich before I was able to pick up Scout 5 and thus Evasion. I died to a stray Fireball that he happened to have prepared in the random lower level slots. It had about 10% chance of hitting due to me being invisible and him not having had time to cast True Seeing - large area and he guessed correctly where I was (it was rolled), and in spite of my succesful save I took enough damage to blow to smithereens; I was making a run for it with my 80' landspeed after it was obvious that we wouldn't win the fight. So yea, there're risks, but the game is still very survivable, especially if you can raise all your defensive stats skyhigh and attain Evasion and Mettle.

LoneGamer
2008-04-20, 06:42 PM
Don't neglect your Touch AC. I have a Paladin tank in a tabletop game and though most enemies can't hurt me through my AC, my touch AC gives me trouble.

Frosty
2008-04-20, 06:51 PM
I agree, which is why my Touch AC is in the 40s. Fireballs won't do much due to Evasion. Orbs can't hit me unless they cast True Strike first.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 06:57 PM
You're set then. Just make sure you also pack enough wallop so that monsters cannot just ignore you and go commit atrocities on the less well protected party members.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 07:42 PM
Let's see... High touch AC, high saves, evasion... What else is left, damage-wise?

What's your plan for if you get dunked in a tank of acid with spikes on the bottom with a hungry acid-breathing shark? High hit points really help there.

Talic
2008-04-20, 07:56 PM
Saying con is less important at higher levels is like saying that it's better to get hit by a jeep than a semi.

Yeah, it's true... But it's still pretty bad.

Shirking Con is dangerous.

Main qualities a tank needs at higher levels (order of importance):

Defenses:
Fort and Will Save, High.
Miss chance abilities. Think Blink, blur, and the like
HP (higher levels have enemies hitting a lot harder)
AC (least important of the qualities. I've seen good tanks that spend most of the combat at an AC < 10.)

Offense:
Control methods: (stand still, reactive attacks, and the like)
Mobility
Damage methods: (High Str, power attack/shock trooper, and the like)

Flickerdart
2008-04-20, 08:00 PM
Yeah, you might want to have an element of control in there somehow. Are your poorly shielded party members dying and you want the mobs to focus on you? Are you being killed in the face and need to escape? A few Batman spells or items would help.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 08:02 PM
Don't forget though that the AC being least important is mostly due to the fact that it takes a ton of effort to get sufficiently high AC to matter. Now, it seems like he's went through the trouble to get there; 40s touch AC and 50s (preferably 60s, if possible) AC is sufficient that you won't take hits from most rays or such, which is huge as they're the most reliable form of attack; you'll even have a fine chance of dodging True Striked ones once you get ~50 AC, and 50-60 AC means Balors won't really hit you, so the only things with the chance to hit you with less than 20 are things like Tarrasque, which you'd rather kill the easy way anyways as they always have glaring weaknesses like the lack of flight and spellcasting.

TheOOB
2008-04-20, 08:37 PM
A high hp is always important. No matter how powerful you are, you will get hit and you will take damage, and any character that can't take a few hits without keeling over is screwed in the long run, doubly so if they are a melee type. However, in the long run, having an enormously high hp doesn't really help in the long run. Take two level 20 characters, one who has 300hp, and one who has 350. At first it would seem that the character with more hp has the advantage, but that advantage is fairly small. 50 extra hp is only what, one maybe two more hits? A cleric at that level can only heal 200 hp per spell, so once you loss that extra hp buffer, it doesn't help you any more, especially if you had to trade something to get that higher hp.

Your AC is more important then HP, taking less attacks is always preferable to being able to take more attacks, it makes that 200hp your cleric can heal mean a whole lot more because it lasts longer. Even more important are saving throws, at high levels the most dangerous effects do not even do damage, they screw you over with just a saving throw, so a high con is still important (though a high wis and dex maybe more so, fighter types usually have good fort saves).

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-20, 10:41 PM
Well, I don't know about you guys, but in the high level (18th) game I'm in, HP is VERY important. The weakish enemies hit for at least 40 - 50 damage a round. Even the guy with an AC of 42 gets hit 75% of the time. So, HP is quite useful if you want to stay alive. I don't know if this applies to your game or not. Our DM is notorious for sending ridiculously powerful enemies against his players.

Eclipse
2008-04-20, 10:50 PM
If your saves really are high enough that you don't need to worry about anything that provokes a saving throw, and you have an AC of 50+ and a Touch AC of 40+, along with immunity to compulsions, I can think of a couple things that will be bad for you if you have low hit points off the top of my head.

The first is acid fog. It limits your movement to 5 feet per round, provides concealment to anyone in the cloud, and deals 2d6 points of acid damage each round. All with no saving throw or attack roll. That will add up over time, particularly if a caster spams them on you as the only effective way to deal with you. That said, a ring of acid resistance should do nicely to stop this tactic from being effective, unless they have mastery of elements, in which case, you'll need resistance to each element somehow.

The other thing you'll need to worry about are auto-hit spells like magic missile and force missiles. As ludicrous as it sounds, with an average of 110 hit points at 20th level, a single magic missile spell (of 9th caster level or higher) deals an average of 17 damage, almost 1/6 of your hit points. And it always hits, no ifs, ands, or buts. Force missiles at 20th level will deal an average of 35 damage per cast, a little less than a third of your hit points. Again, force missiles always hit, just like magic missiles. You'll go down fast to a flying, invisible wizard at that rate.

This assumes you have a con of 10, which is what I tend to consider a dump stat. If it's lower, then it only exaggerates the problem.

That said, it looks like you have most of your bases covered otherwise, though I certainly could have missed something.

Talic
2008-04-20, 11:45 PM
Again, enemies at high level will frequently see +40 to hit. If you aren't willing to completely focus on AC (which is what it takes to hit AC 40-50), then it's better to ignore it.

Let's take, for example, the following two characters.

One has an AC of 40.
The other has an AC of 14, and a ring of blinking.

Along comes Joe CR, with an total attack bonus of +34.

Also, in a second example, we'll use Joe CR, Jr. with attack bonus +15.

Against the AC 40, Senior will hit 75% of the time.
Against the AC 14, Senior will hit 47.5% of the time.

Against AC 40, Junior will hit 5% of the time, and has no reason not to power attack/combat expertise/etc for full every round.

Against AC 14, Junior will hit 47.5% of the time, without power attack, and will go down progressively if he power attacks for more than 3.

Thus, Against low attack bonuses, High AC is better, and against high bonuses, miss chance is better.

As CR's get higher, attack bonuses scale ridiculously high. In addition, if you boost your AC to epic proportions, it encourages the DM to use those higher AB monsters, which means suddenly the rest of the party is getting hit on a 2 or better.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 01:01 AM
I plan to have high AC *and* displacement if I can help it. Hopefully the Wizard prepares it.

Now, my build is not based around battle-field control, so enemies can just ignore me, but I can deal a respectable amount of damage, so they ignore me at their peril.

Fog spells and the like will be really annoying, so I'll be relying on allied spellcasters to dispel them for me. If I see an enemy with magic missiles, I'll cast Shield.

Roderick_BR
2008-04-21, 01:10 AM
Rule of thumb: Yes, save-or-suck and save-or-dies will annoy the heck out of you... but normal, regular damage will STILL kill you. So, keep that HP high if you want to be a front liner. Just find ways to avoid losing them anyway.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-21, 01:12 AM
I'm running with an 8 con on my sorcerer/loremaster, partially for build reasons (originally planned to become a lich), and partially to self-balance against the rest of the party.

Talic
2008-04-21, 02:31 AM
Sorcerors are not generally front line combatants.

The biggest lesson to be learned is that a layered defense is good.

If you're a caster, miss chance spells, damage reduction, HP, and tanks are good options.

If you're a front liner, you're going to want the above, but you need more of all of it. Why? Because your job is to be exposed to the 50-90 damage hits, and it would be really good if you can survive them when they get through (and they will).

You have to realize. 14 encounters per level, on average. Eventually, a lucky couple hits will get through. The important thing is to be able to take a couple lucky hits. Or be cool with getting resurrected. Your call.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 09:37 AM
Well, a scythe crit would hurt a lot, but the chance sof confirmation is pretty darned small. Still, unlucky things happen every now and then, and in hihg level play, doesn't everyone get ressurected once in a while?

Person_Man
2008-04-21, 10:03 AM
I've been playing for a very long time. And its been my personal experience as a DM and as a player that the single most important factor for a PC's survival is hit points. Con should always be your first or second highest stat, regardless of class.

Having said that, your true goal is to have strong defenses across the board; hit points, AC, touch AC, flat footed AC, miss chance, Saves, SR, battlefield control (spells, reach weapons), and a quick way to retreat (Tumble, Dimension Door, Fly, etc). Evasion and Mettle are also helpful, but don't come up nearly as often as your hit point total does.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 10:41 AM
Is it possible to have all of those defenses across the board for most builds? I've even got Tumble, Fly, Shadow maneuvers that teleport, Travel Devotion, etc. But in order to have all of those defenses, wouldn't your offense just become really bad?

And do all builds need it? Batman doesn't, because batman has too much battlefield control and offense to care I guess.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-21, 10:52 AM
And do all builds need it? Batman doesn't, because batman has too much battlefield control and offense to care I guess.

Batman has it, that's why he's so awesome. Persisted Superior Invisibilty, Shapechange, Energy Immunity to every element, Temp Hp to catch up the Fighter, AC buffs, ect.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 10:56 AM
Batman has it, that's why he's so awesome. Persisted Superior Invisibilty, Shapechange, Energy Immunity to every element, Temp Hp to catch up the Fighter, AC buffs, ect.

Well, non Incantatrix Batman can't anyways.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-21, 11:17 AM
Well, non Incantatrix Batman can't anyways.

They can have extended Superior Invisibility and Shapechange for 8+ hours.

They can transform into a Shadesteel Golem for Magic Immunity. They can toss on Protection from Energy and Resist Energy. Not to mention Spell compendium variants.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 11:29 AM
I thought Shapechange lasts 1 round/caster level? I haven't looked at the duration lately. And Superior Invisibility lasts 1 or maybe 10 mins per level?

And sure, Resist Energy is terrific. I love those buffs.

Eldariel
2008-04-21, 01:07 PM
I thought Shapechange lasts 1 round/caster level? I haven't looked at the duration lately. And Superior Invisibility lasts 1 or maybe 10 mins per level?

And sure, Resist Energy is terrific. I love those buffs.

10 mins per level for Shapechange.

Person_Man
2008-04-21, 01:45 PM
Is it possible to have all of those defenses across the board for most builds? I've even got Tumble, Fly, Shadow maneuvers that teleport, Travel Devotion, etc. But in order to have all of those defenses, wouldn't your offense just become really bad?

And do all builds need it? Batman doesn't, because batman has too much battlefield control and offense to care I guess.

If your DM were a computer, then you wouldn't need every defense. You could simply focus on hit points and AC, make sure that your Saves were respectable, and you'd probably be fine in 95% of encounters. And in that one encounter where you could be screwed, you could just retreat or hide.

But most DMs don't act like computers. They purposefully try to promote game balance, by letting you shine in some encounters, and challenging you in others. So if you have a glaring weakness (like low hit points), eventually your DM is going to build an encounter that specifically targets that weakness. Even if you're batman, your DM will eventually throw an anti-magic field or Greater Dispel Magic or magic immune enemy at you. And if you roll poorly or make bad decisions during that encounter, you're dead.

So I've found that a sound general strategy is to have good (but not overwhelmingly great) defenses across the board. With the exception of hit points, which you need high Con for, solid defenses can usually be gotten through buffs and/or purchased through magic items. So they're available for almost any build.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 02:22 PM
I'm not confident I can design an encounter to exploit Batman's weakness without destroying the rest of the team in the process.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-21, 02:44 PM
I'm not confident I can design an encounter to exploit Batman's weakness without destroying the rest of the team in the process.


Easy... divide by Zero!

Person_Man
2008-04-21, 02:47 PM
I'm not confident I can design an encounter to exploit Batman's weakness without destroying the rest of the team in the process.

Batman (an intelligently played and well prepared arcane spellcaster) has a huge weakness.

Batman.

Simply mix in casters to your encounters. If they have ranks of Spellcraft, they can quickly identify and target enemy casters, while allowing their grunts to fight the rest of the party. There are also a variety of ways to Dispel or Counterspell magic before or immediately after its cast - this won't have an effect on other players who don't rely on buffs.

Obviously you shouldn't do this every encounter, because then the Batman PC feels picked on. But it shouldn't be unusual to have a party encounter other casters, and for those casters to recognize the threat that Batman represents in combat after he casts anything powerful.

I'm also fond of shattered magic plot lines. Some ancient artifact or god or whatever is acting up. Magic is behaving erratically. In some areas its normal, in others its twice as powerful, and in some areas its dead. The PCs must track down a way to solve the problem....

Frosty
2008-04-21, 03:10 PM
But does that mean that for any encounter without an enemy Batman will be very easy for the party?

Jasdoif
2008-04-21, 08:57 PM
Power Attack doesn;'t work because of Elusive Target, so the Marilith really is doing a lot less than 16 a round.Keep in mind, the Negate Power Attack use requires you to designate a specific foe with your Dodge feat, and you can only do that during your action. So if something manages to go first, or if you're fighting multiple foes, you might have to deal with Power Attack anyway.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 09:16 PM
Keep in mind, the Negate Power Attack use requires you to designate a specific foe with your Dodge feat, and you can only do that during your action. So if something manages to go first, or if you're fighting multiple foes, you might have to deal with Power Attack anyway.

True. However, if I am facing multiple Mariliths, I'm sure the rest of the party is high enough level to deal with them if they all gang up on me. And at that point, I may also fight defensively. Also, if I am flanked, I can cause the first attack from a flanker to hit his buddy instead. This is also from Elusive target :smallbiggrin: