If Xykon was a 4E lich...

[Nerdanel]

The 4th Edition lich template is out! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080418a) It turns out the comic would have been quite a bit different if it had been 4th Edition from the start and if things changed now, things would really change.

:xykon: A funny thing just happened, I walked into a room and a dozen hobgoblins dropped dead for some reason! It was weird but hilarious.

:redcloak: ...

:xykon: Hey, why are you running away?

It turns out that liches no longer kill/paralyze people with a touch. Their aura of fear has been replaced with an aura that damages living beings. This little thing would have massive consequences to Team Evil, most of whom are alive, and possibly prevent Xykon and Redcloak teaming up to do the gate-controlling ritual, if it means that the two have to stand close to each other for an extended amount of time.

On the other hand, a 4E Xykon would have innate regeneration, so he wouldn't need a pet evil cleric healing him with negative energy nearly as much. In 3.5 Xykon and Redcloak were a great team. The synergy would be gone in the 4th Edition. Well, maybe Redcloak could get himself turned into a vampire lord or something and become immune to Xykon's aura...

[Nikolai_II]

Ooh, if the Giant would do an update comic from 3.5 to 4 just like the 3 to 3.5, then that could turn things around a lot :smallbiggrin:

Of course, I could equally expect a comic about the unwillingness to change from 3.5 to 4, or even one to shift from 3.5 to 3P

(Nice link by the way :smallsmile: )

[bolczan]

Ooh, if the Giant would do an update comic from 3.5 to 4 just like the 3 to 3.5, then that could turn things around a lot :smallbiggrin:

Of course, I could equally expect a comic about the unwillingness to change from 3.5 to 4, or even one to shift from 3.5 to 3P

(Nice link by the way :smallsmile: )

I would like to mention that there wasn't any update "3 to 3.5".

[Kish]

I would like to mention that there wasn't any update "3 to 3.5".
Beg pardon? That's what the first comic was.

[Zarah]

I would like to mention that there wasn't any update "3 to 3.5".

There wasn't? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html)

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[bolczan]

What about SoD? Or Origin of PC's? 3 or 3.5?

[aapje]

Well as far as i know there never were any 3rd edition comics

[Skyserpent]

Well as far as i know there never were any 3rd edition comics

Origin of PCs takes place during 3rd edition.

[Zarah]

What about SoD? Or Origin of PC's? 3 or 3.5?

Actually, in OoPCs, Durkon makes a specific note about his movement rate in heavy armor, then proceeds to tell Roy that "this be a prequel ye fool! We're still under 3.0 rules!"

[bolczan]

Actually, in OoPCs, Durkon makes a specific note about his movement rate in heavy armor, then proceeds to tell Roy that "this be a prequel ye fool! We're still under 3.0 rules!"

Oh. Sorry. My bad.
But im so fed up with all those "3.5 to 4 convertion" topics :smallannoyed:

[Nikolai_II]

Beg pardon? That's what the first comic was.

I would have said the same ;)

And we don't talk about comics that aren't on the site, since those are spoilers - but yes, those are 3.0. Still doesn't take away that comic one was the "Big Change"

[Arkenputtyknife]

Oh. Sorry. My bad.
But im so fed up with all those "3.5 to 4 convertion" topics :smallannoyed:
Then perhaps you should stop reading and responding to them. No one's forcing you to read every topic.

[Vrek]

Didn't Rich use to make Order of the Stick comics for Dragon Magazine before this site even came to be?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Then perhaps you should stop reading and responding to them. No one's forcing you to read every topic.

Speak for yourself. There is a man standing with a gun behind me as I type who will shoot if I so muc

[FujinAkari]

Didn't Rich use to make Order of the Stick comics for Dragon Magazine before this site even came to be?

No. The Dragon Comics started about the same time as The order met Shojo.

[David Argall]

The 4e lich template seems another reason to think that no, we are not converting. [Not that there was much doubt.]

[Kurald Galain]

Also, becoming a lich now requires slightly over average intelligence, which means that most fighters and rangers can become liches (kind of loses the specialty, does it not? and yes, this essentially turns their sword into negative energy) - but based on SOD, Xykon cannot!

[The Extinguisher]

Ahh melee combat. Oh will they make you more useless.

[Gamerlord]

rich burlew will never turn oots to 4th ed because 4th ed will stink

[DementedFellow]

Speak for yourself. There is a man standing with a gun behind me as I type who will shoot if I so muc

He didn't even say Candle Jack. Scary stuff right ther

[Illiterate Scribe]

He didn't even say Candle Jack. Scary stuff right ther

Well, at least he pressed submit for you.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

He didn't even say Candle Jack. Scary stuff right therWhy did you have to bring Candlejack into this? Now he's gonna

[Rutee]

The 4e lich template seems another reason to think that no, we are not converting. [Not that there was much doubt.]

So your thought process is that because it would need a house rule, which OotS is full of already, it would actually stop Rich. Interesting.

[Ghastly Epigram]

So your thought process is that because it would need a house rule, which OotS is full of already, it would actually stop Rich. Interesting.

I think that is a bit unfair to phrase it like that. :smallannoyed: I am pretty sure we both know that is not the whole basis of his stance on the matter. (Hell, he even said another reason.)

Now I do not pretend to know a whole lot about D&D, but from what I have heard about 4E Rich is going to need a lot more than "a house rule" if he wants to change to it. What you would probably actually end up with is 3.5 with a few 4E bits thrown in. Which, of course, defeats the entire point of converting.

No, much better to leave it as it is. No real reason to, it would throw things out of balance and just cause a mess I think. (And not in a good way.) Though I would not be surprised to see some references to it.

[Rutee]

What is with people? I have never met a larger group of people who legitimately think that because the rules change, the /character/ does. OotS is about a campaign that's actually being done; That means that houserules are the order of the day anyway, and since Rich doesn't actually have to make rules, he's not in any real bind.

I don't really care one way or the other, and there's no question that it'd be easier for Rich to stick to 3.5, but IMO, the strip's shift to serious just doesn't suit it. If 4.0 helps him go back to a comedy focus, in any way (even mocking it; I genuinely don't care), then most excellent. If it doesn't, meh, no reason to bother with a shift. It really doesn't matter now that the mechanics have (Probably mercifully, since there are so few jokes about it) not been brought up in any serious sense.

[Kish]

I don't really care one way or the other, and there's no question that it'd be easier for Rich to stick to 3.5, but IMO, the strip's shift to serious just doesn't suit it. If 4.0 helps him go back to a comedy focus, in any way (even mocking it; I genuinely don't care), then most excellent.
It always baffles me when people talk about "helping" Rich do something he apparently doesn't want to do.

The shift in focus is because Rich chose to shift the focus. It's not a curse someone put on him.

[Rutee]

Not all of us follow the giant's word or news slavishly. Or even at all.

But seriously, attacking diction? You didn't have anything better to do? I know this is the internet and all, but /diction/?

[Kish]

That wasn't "diction." You want to pretend the difference between "helping Rich do X" and "making Rich do X which I want him to do" is a meaningless semantic difference, go ahead, but I'll tell you right now that expecting the focus to shift back to one-off jokes about the rules is a recipe for being frustrated for the rest of the comic's run.

[Rutee]

Making? I genuinely thought he'd run low enough on 3e comic (In the sense of amusing) material that he didn't see much need to poke it with a stick on a regular basis, hence the direction change. Some people's children.

[Ghastly Epigram]

What is with people? I have never met a larger group of people who legitimately think that because the rules change, the /character/ does. OotS is about a campaign that's actually being done; That means that houserules are the order of the day anyway, and since Rich doesn't actually have to make rules, he's not in any real bind.

...I do not actually see a point in there. :smallconfused: MY point is that the characters do not so much change as they do, you know, completely disappear. Sure, he could just keep things that severely hamper the story (New lich template, certain classes and races being removed, et cetera.) the way they were (With houserules or whatever.) but that just defeats the point of converting in the first place. The whole point of converting would be the rules changing, so if he if he does not "actually have to make rules," the conversion is impossible anyway; of course he is not in "any real bind" if he does not change the rules/have any rules to change!

Honestly, what? Nonsensical confuzzling land.

[Rutee]

...I do not actually see a point in there. :smallconfused: MY point is that the characters do not so much change as they do, you know, completely disappear. Sure, he could just keep things that severely hamper the story (New lich template, certain classes and races being removed, et cetera.) the way they were (With houserules or whatever.) but that just defeats the point of converting in the first place. The whole point of converting would be the rules changing, so if he if he does not "actually have to make rules," the conversion is impossible anyway; of course he is not in "any real bind" if he does not change the rules/have any rules to change!

Honestly, what? Nonsensical confuzzling land.

...They disappear? When? Did I miss an announcement that without a mechanical construct (Since they don't have character sheets) a character can't exist? Did the literary world miss it too? Are they aware that they can't write stories without a RAW DnD character sheet? Oh dear!

Okay, now in seriousness.. you seem to have missed that not everything requires a houserule. The entire world doesn't vanish. And there are still changes that would be made to a lot of core system assumptions (Such as Roy 'gaining' the mechanical ability to do a lot of non-sword slashy things). And whatever hilariously stupid mechanics WotC implements in 4e too. Certainly you expect him to at least poke fun at it, upgrade or not, correct?

[Ghastly Epigram]

...They disappear? When? Did I miss an announcement that without a mechanical construct (Since they don't have character sheets) a character can't exist? Did the literary world miss it too? Are they aware that they can't write stories without a RAW DnD character sheet? Oh dear!

Yeah, that is clearly what I said and meant. :smalltongue:


Okay, now in seriousness.. you seem to have missed that not everything requires a houserule. The entire world doesn't vanish. And there are still changes that would be made to a lot of core system assumptions (Such as Roy 'gaining' the mechanical ability to do a lot of non-sword slashy things). And whatever hilariously stupid mechanics WotC implements in 4e too. Certainly you expect him to at least poke fun at it, upgrade or not, correct?

Now forgive me if I am wrong, but from this and your other posts I think I have an idea of what you mean.

So basically, you are saying things regarding the setting (Races, classes, cultures, et cetera.) stay pretty much the same, what with it being an established world and all, (In much the same way one would create/adjust new classes and monsters if one was making, say, a sci-fi setting.) and from there Rich just picks and chooses the mechanics that he wants to make fun of, that do not hamper previously established setting? (Like the damage aura thingy for liches and other such things.) Would any of that be at all accurate?

See, the funny thing is, there is a difference between a setting, house rules, and just mish-mashing together whatever you want. :smallwink: Because OOTS DOES run by D&D rules - barring of course a few exceptions - and it is one thing to take a few liberties (And there are not THAT many of them.) and say, "Screw the rules I have funny...and plot." and another to just say "Screw the rules."

Like I said, converting just would not really be worth it, and be a bit silly as well. (Not particularly in a good way.) It would just give a few unnecessary complications to muddle through, and since OOTS is a 3.0/3.5 setting, there is no reason for it not to stay that way. (Besides, did not WotC themselves say it would be pointless trying to convert old campaigns to 4E?) Plus if he DID permanently change, people would expect it to go back (Obviously not completely) to the style and tone of Dungeon of Dorukan, and while I am all for light-hearted OOTS, I do not think that is the best way to go about it. Rich has said it himself, it has grown past that.

[Oslecamo]

Okay, now in seriousness.. you seem to have missed that not everything requires a houserule. The entire world doesn't vanish. And there are still changes that would be made to a lot of core system assumptions (Such as Roy 'gaining' the mechanical ability to do a lot of non-sword slashy things). And whatever hilariously stupid mechanics WotC implements in 4e too. Certainly you expect him to at least poke fun at it, upgrade or not, correct?

No. Oots is almost all based in 3.5 core.

Richard has lots of 3.5 material to make fun in the strip in the form of the tons of splatbooks published. He still only barely scratched it. Some deathless here, an electric orb there.

And when it happens, the characters don't mock the mechanics, they mock the fact that they're using something noncore.

[Morty]

...They disappear? When? Did I miss an announcement that without a mechanical construct (Since they don't have character sheets) a character can't exist? Did the literary world miss it too? Are they aware that they can't write stories without a RAW DnD character sheet? Oh dear!


While the strip itself has turned from jokes about rules towards more sopthisticated story, the characters still metagame a lot, and you can't metagame if your class or race disappears, which means Elan, Nale, Thog and Xykon would be in trouble. Elan would be doubly screwed, since not only Bard doesn't exist in core 4ed, but the whole concept of PrCs is gone. Sure, that wouldn't prevent Giant from making stuff up, but along with other things it's enough to make transition to 4ed more trouble than it'd be worth.

[Roderick_BR]

:xykon: A funny thing just happened, I walked into a room and a dozen hobgoblins dropped dead for some reason! It was weird but hilarious.
hehehehe... I can actually see that happening :smallbiggrin:

[Laurentio]

Not all of us follow the giant's word or news slavishly. Or even at all.
I suppose you don't even recognize, or care to recognize, how offensive are you to the people that actually keep themselves informed. That is, informed before spamming useless discussion that continue to defend, no matter how many people are trying, politely, to explain why it is useless.
But politeness is worth the value of the people it's addressed to.

Laurentio, one of the slavish people

[David Argall]

So your thought process is that because it would need a house rule, which OotS is full of already, it would actually stop Rich.
At some point it would have to [or rather he would stop himself]. A joke involves a shared experience. This D&D rule is stupid in some way or other. Writer and reader have experienced that rule in some degree, and so the joke can work. But now when we talk about some house rule, that shared experience is missing, and the joke is doomed [unless we can find an alternate shared experience, which we often can, including jokes about houserules, but we are having to work harder to get the jokes and the focus is being lost. Sooner or later, it just isn't worth it.]
The more differences we find between 3.5 and 4.0, the less any conversion is going to be worth it. And the different rules for lich does make for serious story problems. Anyone writing a 4.0 story probably wouldn't use anything close to Xykon. Our 4.0 lich is just not going to get much onstage time to interact with other characters.
So it's one more strike against the idea of conversion.

[Oslecamo]

hehehehe... I can actually see that happening :smallbiggrin:

It already happens. If Xykon goes somewhere, living beings around him end up dying in strange ways. If it doesn't happen naturally, Xykon has no trouble making it happen with his magic.

[Zorn]

Laurentio, one of the slavish people

I couldn't agree more.

I think David really hit the mark in trying to sum up everyone's argument, Rutee. Any conversion is simply not worth the effort if you're going to cut out half of it. Should Rich decide to convert, it would entail an enormous amount of work. Everything in the OotS world would have to be reevaluated, whether it actually ends up changing from 3.5 or not. I simply don't think its worth the effort, not, at least, for a few cheap jokes that half of the fan base won't understand.

Perhaps in the future, once people become more familiar with 4.0, Rich will create a spinoff or something. Until then, I don't see any need to put the effort in. The 3.0 to 3.5 switch would not have gone over nearly as well if readers had had time to grow accustomed to a 3.0 OotS setting.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

No. The Dragon Comics started about the same time as The order met Shojo.

They started as the order was attempting to escape from jail. I know because that's why and when I started reading.


What is with people? I have never met a larger group of people who legitimately think that because the rules change, the /character/ does. OotS is about a campaign that's actually being done; That means that houserules are the order of the day anyway, and since Rich doesn't actually have to make rules, he's not in any real bind.

It's not a campaign that's actually being done. The Giant has specifically said that the only IRL character he's seen that's even close to one of the order was a slightly unintelligent bard. He also described the process of thinking up all of the characters.

[Alex Warlorn]

The 4th Edition lich template is out! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080418a) It turns out the comic would have been quite a bit different if it had been 4th Edition from the start and if things changed now, things would really change.

:xykon: A funny thing just happened, I walked into a room and a dozen hobgoblins dropped dead for some reason! It was weird but hilarious.

:redcloak: ...

:xykon: Hey, why are you running away?

It turns out that liches no longer kill/paralyze people with a touch. Their aura of fear has been replaced with an aura that damages living beings. This little thing would have massive consequences to Team Evil, most of whom are alive, and possibly prevent Xykon and Redcloak teaming up to do the gate-controlling ritual, if it means that the two have to stand close to each other for an extended amount of time.

On the other hand, a 4E Xykon would have innate regeneration, so he wouldn't need a pet evil cleric healing him with negative energy nearly as much. In 3.5 Xykon and Redcloak were a great team. The synergy would be gone in the 4th Edition. Well, maybe Redcloak could get himself turned into a vampire lord or something and become immune to Xykon's aura...

And yet another reason for me to detest 4E comes out.

[MartinHarper]

I've been assuming that a 4e lich's necromantic aura is suppressible at will. It's probably in the overall rules for aura powers in the player's handbook.

Scene: Xykon and Redcloak walking through a corridor. They pass a series of hobgoblins, who appear to be in some pain.

:xykon: 4th edition is great: I get a new aura that kills living creatures.

:redcloak: That aura is suppressible at will, you know. Cure Minor Wounds.

:xykon: Even better! When are you converting?

:redcloak: I was waiting for the Lich-Killer Paragon Path to be released. Cure Minor Wounds.

:xykon: Sounds like more of an Epic Destiny to me.

:redcloak: It's surprisingly easy when you know how. Cure Minor Wounds.

*They walk past more dying hobgoblins*

:redcloak: Suppress your aura already!

:xykon: Oh, right. Better?

:redcloak: Thanks. Also, Healing Surge.

[SPoD]

I don't really care one way or the other, and there's no question that it'd be easier for Rich to stick to 3.5, but IMO, the strip's shift to serious just doesn't suit it. If 4.0 helps him go back to a comedy focus, in any way (even mocking it; I genuinely don't care), then most excellent. If it doesn't, meh, no reason to bother with a shift. It really doesn't matter now that the mechanics have (Probably mercifully, since there are so few jokes about it) not been brought up in any serious sense.

"Shift to serious"? What on earth are you talking about?

To pull a page from your debate manual, I suppose D&D mechanics jokes are the only types of humor that exist now? Thus, if Rich doesn't include D&D jokes, he must be making the comic more serious? Please. This is still a comedy story with comedic characters and a punchline 19 out of 20 strips (and multiple mid-strip jokes, too).

I really look forward to the day when people who feel that OOTS was only ever worthwhile as a vehicle for (as Haley herself put it in) "fairly obvious jokes about the rules" realize that it's never going back and stop reading. The fact that Rich was capable of making the Dragon strips (which were 100% rules jokes) while continuing this strip means that no, he hadn't run out of rules jokes, he had just grown bored with making them.

If writing a fantastic story that most of us are excited to read happens to also keep him interested in creating, then gosh, I guess that's what we're stuck with.

[veilrap]

I've been assuming that a 4e lich's necromantic aura is suppressible at will. It's probably in the overall rules for aura powers in the player's handbook.

Scene: Xykon and Redcloak walking through a corridor. They pass a series of hobgoblins, who appear to be in some pain.

:xykon: 4th edition is great: I get a new aura that kills living creatures.

:redcloak: That aura is suppressible at will, you know. Cure Minor Wounds.

:xykon: Even better! When are you converting?

:redcloak: I was waiting for the Lich-Killer Paragon Path to be released. Cure Minor Wounds.

:xykon: Sounds like more of an Epic Destiny to me.

:redcloak: It's surprisingly easy when you know how. Cure Minor Wounds.

*They walk past more dying hobgoblins*

:redcloak: Suppress your aura already!

:xykon: Oh, right. Better?

:redcloak: Thanks. Also, Healing Surge.

This is exactly how I would envision it happening as well. Really the Lich change wouldn't hamper a 4e conversion at all.

The most significant issue is just the Bard/PrC one.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Very great story MartinHarper. :amused:
I can almost see Rich writing it that way. It shows how a 4E edition conversion can happen smoothly without grealtly effecting the strip.

It will add great opportunites for humour.

[lord of kobolds]

I'm not sure if this qualifies for organ harvesting, but if so, I get the spleen.

[Beholder1995]

I'm not sure if this qualifies for organ harvesting, but if so, I get the spleen.

Probably not, but I'll take the spleen for fun. *grab*

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