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DrizztFan24
2008-04-20, 03:01 PM
So one of my groups is starting up a new set of characters (we decided living through ToH with no deaths was about as good as it gets). One player wants to play a malkonvoker (summons evil to fight evil), the other player finally realized her true calling...rogue. After her druid became the money hungry machine of the last party (I almost decided to assassinate her) she figured that she wanted a thief.

And that leaves me. I don't think we are playing a gestalt game this next time through and I was wondering what would fill the roles well. I was thinking of a paladin that specialized in mounted archery, and Gray Guard...BUT WAIT, Gray Guard doesn't advance your special mount. Then I would be able to use cure wands without too much trouble and I would also be able to play a little bit of a meat shield. I didn't want to go with the flying double-lanceromatic build because I have no idea on how to make one nor do I know how effective they are.

Good idea? Bad idea? The summoning will help a little, and I might be able to talk the DM into gestalt if you think that might be a better idea.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 03:09 PM
Fist of Raziel from BoED is good for Paladins.

Nikolai_II
2008-04-20, 03:52 PM
ToH? What is that? Temple of Horrors? (Just curious)

DrizztFan24
2008-04-20, 04:03 PM
Close, Tomb of Horrors. It is one big freaking deathtrap. We had maybe 2 or 3 monster encounters in close to 9 hours of gameplay...the rest was all traps. It is a vicious dungeon made to kill you. The CR system is a little bit off too. They have CR "11" monsters that they then optimize to put them close to a CR 13 or 14.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-20, 04:12 PM
ToH? What is that? Temple of Horrors? (Just curious)Tomb of Horrors. It's the lovechild of Gary Gygax and a being composed of liquid evil. 10 hours to get through, with traps that would kill Indiana Jones. One of the locks kills you if you can't make a DC 40 Open Lock check within 4 rounds. There's only a handful of monsters, but the ones that are there will kill anything of their CR. I read through it once, one of the trap descriptions says "as you might imagine, this is quite cruel to the players, but immensely funny for the DM".

I plan to run it for Halloween this year.

Charity
2008-04-20, 06:19 PM
Rouge?

(couldn't help myself sorry)

JaxGaret
2008-04-20, 06:21 PM
Rouge?

(couldn't help myself sorry)

Beat me to it.

RobbieOC
2008-04-20, 06:23 PM
I get the joke.

Xefas
2008-04-20, 06:57 PM
I would say Cleric, personally. Firstly, if you want to play a Paladin in flavor, a Cleric can be indistinguishable from a roleplay perspective (and with no alignment restrictions getting in the way of any character development you might want to engage in, in the future). Secondly, you remain able to use healing items/wands to keep the party up. Thirdly, your buff spells will probably make you out to be a far better combatant than a regular Paladin, not to mention that you can also choose, on the fly, to turn one of your other party members into a juggernaut of death instead of you.

Clerics are healers, melee fighters, and can do utility on their off days. Perfect for when your party needs more than one slot filled and only one character to do the job.

TehJhu
2008-04-20, 07:05 PM
(and with no alignment restrictions getting in the way of any character development you might want to engage in, in the future).

Clerics have alignment restrictions.

Eldariel
2008-04-20, 07:17 PM
If you just want to fill the hole in the party, Cleric or Druid is probably going to work better than a Paladin (although Druid may have some trouble picking up the social skills; may call for Able Learner to save skillpoints and maybe even taking that dreadful level of Monk - of course, none of that is a problem if Rogue plans on being the spokesperson, in which case Druid's nature-abilities would fill in on another hole), as they both excel in melee at least as much as most focused melee characters, are fine casters with their options in whatever the Malconvoker leaves up to you (battlefield control, save-or-FUs, whatever he doesn't do that well) and can heal all you need and fill in on those skills Rogue may miss.

However, if you want to specifically play a Mounted Paladin, I don't see why you'd go for Gray Guard. Basically, by going Gray Guard, you give up your Mount for a host of other benefits; you can still summon it, but it'll grow fragile over time as it doesn't gain save, HP and AC improvements as per normal. Flying Mount is just a feat; there're tons of feats that improve your Mount and some of those allow picking up exotic mounts, often of the Celestial variety. Then just use Lance+Spirited Charge and enjoy. Some also use the 'Leadership'-feat to get something such as a Dragon as their Cohort and ride that to battle. Supermount builds are another breed entirely; basically we're talking a Halfling taking Halfling Outrider and then taking the Devoted Tracker-feat from Complete Adventurer (and Natural Bond to help out a bit more with the non-Druid advancing levels) to combine the animal companion and mount to effectively get some level 40 Mount/Animal Companion pre-epic, and can use Draconomicon's feat for Paladins to pick up a Dragon Mount.

Devoted Tracker Paladin/Druid could be fairly good without cheese, although having to pick up 5 levels of Paladin really puts a damper on Druiding it up - worse than straight Druid, but it's a Paladin too, so meh (requiring an alignment shift, of course). I suppose you could pick up a Dragon Mount and then add up your Animal Companion-abilities on it for some awesome HD.


EDIT: Writing long gives the ninjas time to strike. Le sigh.

Xefas
2008-04-20, 07:45 PM
Clerics have alignment restrictions.

For the God they worship, yes. However, if something in the story really motivates you to make a heel face turn from a Lawful Good Cleric to a Chaotic Evil Cleric, you can always stop worshiping Heironeous and start worshiping Erythnul and BAM, problem solved.

Or, if you want to slightly cop out, you can stop worshiping Heironeous and start worshiping an ideal such as "Heironeous, only when seen through a filter of evil and madness".

For a Paladin, it's "You have one option, and one option only, so there!"

I'm not saying you'd want to suddenly switch alignments, but having the OPTION is never a bad thing.

Agamid
2008-04-21, 12:18 PM
frickin' Tomb of Horrors! /cry I hate it so much! Stupid long goddamn corridor with endless stupid friggin' traps that reset! I hate you Gary Gygax! I hate you!

(the whited out part is a reference to part of the adventure, thought it would be polite not to give anything away if people here haven't played it..)

Go for a healer... I'd go druid, but that's because i hate other healer classes, especially paladins...

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-21, 12:30 PM
Healing is good, but many classes can do it...

Sublime Chord? Bards get reasonable healing skills...

skywalker
2008-04-21, 12:43 PM
frickin' Tomb of Horrors! /cry I hate it so much! Stupid long goddamn corridor with endless stupid friggin' traps that reset! I hate you Gary Gygax! I hate you!

(the whited out part is a reference to part of the adventure, thought it would be polite not to give anything away if people here haven't played it..)

Go for a healer... I'd go druid, but that's because i hate other healer classes, especially paladins...

Druid is pretty much choice number 4 of 4 when it comes to selecting a class for its healing abilities. Druids can't spontaneously convert spells into cure spells, you're probably going to be too busy being an animal machine of death when your party members need healing, you can't buff other party members as well, etc.

I think, since both of your friends made rather selfish choices with their class selections, you will probably need to bite the bullet and grab cleric for the reasons already mentioned by others. Has tomb of horrors not taught you that having a primary healer is always a good idea?

TempusCCK
2008-04-21, 12:46 PM
There's a variant in UA that even allows a Cleric to do Smite Evils I think... by giving up your Turn Undead uses. It's a good trade, especially at higher levels where Turning is somewhat limited in efficiency.

Edit:

Yep, here it is, from the SRD.


Cleric
Some clerics prefer to be champions of good (or evil), standing at the forefront of the battle against the enemy.

Gain
Smite evil, if the cleric would normally channel positive energy, or smite good, if the cleric would normally channel negative energy (as paladin); aura of courage (as paladin).

Lose
Turn undead.

Eldariel
2008-04-21, 01:17 PM
Losing Turning is never a good idea unless you get it from another class. Turning fuels all the Divine feats, most profilically Divine Metamagic, along with a ton of other powerful abilities for all varieties of Clerics (Ruby Knight Vindicator, Ordained Champion, etc.), it's basically the reason Clerics are comparable to Druids; they've got one-two-three punch in Domains (in other words, their ability to pretend being a Wizard and having a hugely expanded spelllist along with a crapton of insane unique features and bonus feats, etc.), Turn Undead and Spells, while Druids have Shapechange, Animal Companion and Spells. Losing Turn Undead is like losing one of those; you better get something good for it and Smite just isn't that strong; you can get Smite from spells, class features or even burn Turn Undead-attempts through a feat to Smite if that's what you want. Turn Undead is too versatile and powerful a mechanic to waste for something as simple-minded and restricted as Smite (Smite just can't be traded for as many good things as Turn Undead, hence the reason everyone isn't building Paladins).

Druids can prepare Lesser Vigors, mass Lesser Vigors and so on, so they're fine with healing. Also, they get Heal in the 7th level slot, and they can afford to prepare a number of Cure-spells if they really need to (this is usually frowned upon as a combat spell is more effective in saving party members by disabling the opponents more quickly, thus minimizing damage and leaving time for post-combat healing) as they can spontaneously convert them into combat-spells as needed (also, SNAIII can summon a Unicorn, which is basically a Cleric on its own right, so it's actually a better conversion than spontaneous Cure). So yea, Druids can heal alright, and if the party needs a healer, Druids are only matched by Clerics. Both are, well played, going to do more than adequate jobs as healers without much effort (get that Wand of Vigor, along with maybe few prepared Cure-spells you can convert before you get Heal, along with spontaneous SNAIII+) and tons of other stuff while at it. Druid is going to kick ass and chew bubblegum as a two-character full-powered combat force with casting, while Cleric is going to be one, hugely buffed character in fight (and he can buff the others too).

Basically, what I'm saying is that a Druid or a Cleric is going to do exactly what you want as both, a support character, a secondary combat caster and a frontliner (or two). Either would work perfectly. That said, feel free to play Paladin. They're worse healers by much (no Lesser Vigor on list to use the Wands and their castable curing spells are never up to par, so it's mostly just Lay on Hands, which requires you to basically SAD Charisma if you ever want to be nearly sufficient and even then you'll fall short and have to use the more expensive Wands of Cure Light Wounds over Wands of Lesser Vigor), and not quite as strong in the melee, but they're decent options.

DrizztFan24
2008-04-21, 01:36 PM
Has tomb of horrors not taught you that having a primary healer is always a good idea?

Actually we survived thanks to ungodly search and disable, a wand of cure serious, my beguiler's intuitive thinking, and The Playground {/OMNISCIENTVOICE}

skywalker
2008-04-21, 06:57 PM
Druids can prepare Lesser Vigors, mass Lesser Vigors and so on, so they're fine with healing. Also, they get Heal in the 7th level slot, and they can afford to prepare a number of Cure-spells if they really need to (this is usually frowned upon as a combat spell is more effective in saving party members by disabling the opponents more quickly, thus minimizing damage and leaving time for post-combat healing) as they can spontaneously convert them into combat-spells as needed (also, SNAIII can summon a Unicorn, which is basically a Cleric on its own right, so it's actually a better conversion than spontaneous Cure). So yea, Druids can heal alright, and if the party needs a healer, Druids are only matched by Clerics. Both are, well played, going to do more than adequate jobs as healers without much effort (get that Wand of Vigor, along with maybe few prepared Cure-spells you can convert before you get Heal, along with spontaneous SNAIII+) and tons of other stuff while at it. Druid is going to kick ass and chew bubblegum as a two-character full-powered combat force with casting, while Cleric is going to be one, hugely buffed character in fight (and he can buff the others too).

Basically, what I'm saying is that a Druid or a Cleric is going to do exactly what you want as both, a support character, a secondary combat caster and a frontliner (or two). Either would work perfectly. That said, feel free to play Paladin. They're worse healers by much (no Lesser Vigor on list to use the Wands and their castable curing spells are never up to par, so it's mostly just Lay on Hands, which requires you to basically SAD Charisma if you ever want to be nearly sufficient and even then you'll fall short and have to use the more expensive Wands of Cure Light Wounds over Wands of Lesser Vigor), and not quite as strong in the melee, but they're decent options.

None of that applies if your DM doesn't allow spell compendium, most people who play druids tend to get a little death-happy and all those spells have a range of touch. If you're playing a paladin, you have other reasons to boost charisma besides lay on hands, you're not gonna pump it at the expense of others, and usually those who play paladins have mutiple good attributes anyway. As well, lay on hands is guaranteed healing of whatever amount you need, not a chance die-roll. How many druids do you know that use SNA 3 to summon unicorns?

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-21, 07:05 PM
The Vigor line is also in the complete divine, so there is a greater chance of it being allowed. And as for the SNA 3 unicorn, if I needed healing, I'd summon one. Its not like you have to choose what you can summon when you create the character. You can even choose when you cast the spell, so just have a 3rd level slot or higher open, and you can get a unicorn.

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-22, 08:57 AM
I'd totally summon a Unicorn to heal me. Probably just me, though, since regular Unicorn's only get 3/day CLW and 1/day CMW SLAs.

You get Unicorn from SNA4, btw. SNA9 to get the Celestial Charger Unicorn, which has 7 levels in Cleric.

Eldariel
2008-04-22, 10:01 AM
None of that applies if your DM doesn't allow spell compendium, most people who play druids tend to get a little death-happy and all those spells have a range of touch. If you're playing a paladin, you have other reasons to boost charisma besides lay on hands, you're not gonna pump it at the expense of others, and usually those who play paladins have mutiple good attributes anyway. As well, lay on hands is guaranteed healing of whatever amount you need, not a chance die-roll. How many druids do you know that use SNA 3 to summon unicorns?

Why wouldn't you use your spontaneous SNAs to heal if you need healing? That simply doesn't compute. As far as paladins go, yes, it's guaranteed healing, but it'll also run out much faster. Also, your Charisma is of course going to be high, but a Paladin also needs Strength, Constitution and Wisdom at least so it won't be that high and therefore your Lay on Hands won't be maximized unless you accept suckitude when you're not Smiting (you don't have enough Smites for all your attacks).

Without access to Vigor-line, you'll have to make do with Wands of Cure Light Wounds, which a Paladin can use just as well, but Paladin still can't prepare as much healing as a Druid, nor as early (and Mount isn't exactly as good a meatshield as an Animal Companion). A Druid can use basically all his slots on healing if he's so inclined thanks to the spontaneous conversion; Summons are always useful thanks to the open nature of the spell and having such a spell list available on command means you can prepare stuff for even the most fringe sitiuations and not suffer much for it (while Clerics can only convert to Cures, which tend to be quite ineffective most of the time).


As far as the playing-part, that's up to the player, not a part of the class. If the player wants to play a healer, he can do it almost as easily as a Druid as he could as a Cleric and he'll be better at keeping the party alive with an additional meatshield.

Unicorns also make good meatshields and fine combatants in addition to being healers and have Neutralize Poison, and most importantly, automatic Magic Circle against Evil to protect the to-be-healed character. They also have reach, so they'll do a fine job keeping the weakened ally safe.