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Jayngfet
2008-04-21, 02:31 AM
I'm looking for a specific type of outsider, CG, former fiends, anything like that around?

JBento
2008-04-21, 04:04 AM
I'm AFB right now, but I believe the BoED has a Template for reformed Evil creatures - IIRC, the example given is that of a red dragon, but I'm pretty sure it can be applied to Outsiders too

Grynning
2008-04-21, 06:04 AM
The redeemed creatures from BoED are your best bet, as far as I know there aren't any Outsiders with that as built-in flavor.

You may want to check out the Hellbred from Fiendish Codex II. They're an LA +0 playable race, but they're really neat RP-wise - sinners who repented after being sent to hell, so the gods gave them a chance at redemption - walk the earth and be as goody-goody as possible and you MIGHT not go back to hell when you die the next time. They look all fiendish and scarred and such, but their favored class is Paladin and they can use evil items/magic etc. to fight against evil. Great RP opportunities all around and fit right in with many builds, including the Gray Guard and Malconvoker (both from complete scoundrel).

hamishspence
2008-04-21, 06:17 AM
technically, the hellbred option is after being condemned by their actions, but before arrival in Hell. Given that the system stresses that a big batch of evil acts unatoned for sends Lawful beings to hell regardless of heroism, I would allow those characters who have began repentance, but not commited the acts needed for atonement, the hellbred option.

Unfortunately, the Sanctify the Wicked spell explicitly states it doesn't work on outsiders with the Evil subtype. Which is odd, given the template in the creatures section of the book discusses issues involving the various fiend types: baatezu, yugoloth, tan'nari. Which, by RAW, can't have that template.

Jayngfet
2008-04-21, 05:29 PM
hmm ... anyone know of any homebrew?

Frosty
2008-04-21, 06:08 PM
I have a sudden urge to stat up an Erinyes or Pleasure-Devil Paladin of Freedom. Would she radiate Good, Chaotic, Evil, and Lawful?

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-21, 06:16 PM
I have a sudden urge to stat up an Erinyes or Pleasure-Devil Paladin of Freedom. Would she radiate Good, Chaotic, Evil, and Lawful?

There's a The Succubus Paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a) on wizards, so its not entierly out there.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 06:25 PM
I find it funny how when the paladin wields a Holy weapon, she gets weaker.

Jayngfet
2008-04-21, 08:21 PM
ok, I decided to homebrew it myself, all I'm missing is a name, anyone got an Idea?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-21, 08:37 PM
I have a sudden urge to stat up an Erinyes or Pleasure-Devil Paladin of Freedom. Would she radiate Good, Chaotic, Evil, and Lawful?L, E, and G, actually. Though the L and E would be stronger, as they're based on HD and the G is based on class level.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 09:09 PM
Doesn't Paladin of Freedom have a requirement of Chaotic?

Jasdoif
2008-04-21, 09:40 PM
L, E, and G, actually. Though the L and E would be stronger, as they're based on HD and the G is based on class level.Though it's a little more roundabout, it would actually have all four alignment auras, and all in the same HD-based strength.

A CG outsider is both a chaotic outsider and a good outsider, after all; and would register on detect chaos and detect good as such; even while registering the same on detect law and detect evil due to the alignment subtypes.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 09:51 PM
And alignment-related items just give up and explode as the item can't figure out whether to become a +5 Cold Iron longsword or to zap the Paladin?

Jasdoif
2008-04-21, 10:18 PM
And alignment-related items just give up and explode as the item can't figure out whether to become a +5 Cold Iron longsword or to zap the Paladin?It actually does both.

I assume you're talking about a Holy Avenger here. In which case it does act as a +5 holy cold iron longsword, because it's wielded by a paladin; and because it acts as a holy weapon it bestows the negative level upon the Paladin, because of the Evil subtype.


Alignment subtypes give a mechanical reason to why there's so few exceptions in the "Always" alignments of outsiders: They still take the same penalties as if they were of the original alignment, in addition to those of their actual alignment.

LoneGamer
2008-04-21, 10:23 PM
Though it's not entirely relevant to this discussion, a Paladin's aura is on the Good/Evil axis, a Lawful Good Paladin's aura for Detect Law is the same as the Lawful Good Fighter's.

neochaos
2008-04-21, 10:24 PM
Sanctified (an evil creature that survived the spell Sanctify the Wicked, becoming a good creature that regrets the evil it did in its previous life)
(BoED p186)

Often surrounded by a aura of light. Can be applied to any Evil creature, except
for Outsiders.

Always Good. Gains the ‘Good’ subtype & looses incompatible subtypes, such as ‘Evil’, ‘Baatezu’, etc. Also looses the ‘Fiendish’ template, if
applicable. Natural & wielded weapons are considered ‘Good’. Lvl +2, CR +1

Tongues, always on.
Light Ray, once per round – ray attack with a range of 60’.
Causes 1d6 damage per 2 HD vs. Evil creatures only.
Looses all preexisting supernatural & spell-like abilities, and any
Vile Feats. If the creature had Damage Reduction that was
bypassed by ‘Good’, it is now bypassed by ‘Evil’.
Aura of Menace – any hostile creature within a 20’ radius receives
a –2 penalty on attacks, AC, & saves (WillNeg, DC is Charismabased).
Effect lasts until the opponent has hit the Sanctified
creature, up to 1 day. On a successful save –or– once the effect
has been broken, the creature is immune for 24 hours.
Magic Circle against Evil, always on..

Cool template, except that non-Outsider part. But I think you can change it by house-rule.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-21, 10:33 PM
That spell always gave me the creeps. Seriously, you lock some poor bastard in a gem for a year, and then, if they survive, their entire outlook on life has been changed and they immediately join your side of the conflict. There's a word for that, and that word is not "Sanctification."

Side note: According to the template, it is technically legal to Sanctify a Ghost. A Ghost so Sanctified loses all of its powers except for its skill and ability bonuses. That includes the ability to manifest on the material plane. :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-04-21, 10:46 PM
It actually does both.

But does this make sense to you on a role-play standpoint? I mean, being able to be trapped by both magic circles against good and circles agains evil just doesn't seem quite right.

Jasdoif
2008-04-21, 11:08 PM
But does this make sense to you on a role-play standpoint? I mean, being able to be trapped by both magic circles against good and circles agains evil just doesn't seem quite right.Actually, it kind of does.

As I see it, having an alignment subtype means that your body is partly composed of the essence of that alignment (presumably because you're an outsider native to a plane with a strong alignment trait, and are thus composed partly of the essence of that plane). It pervades your very being in a literal sense. Meanwhile, as a sapient creature you have a choice in your decisions, which results in an alignment (like any other sapient creature).

It's like the Outsider type's description says: Your body and soul form a single unit. In this case, the body has an alignment of its own, and effects can react to the "physical" alignment just like they can to the "spiritual" alignment.

herrhauptmann
2008-04-21, 11:08 PM
But does this make sense to you on a role-play standpoint? I mean, being able to be trapped by both magic circles against good and circles agains evil just doesn't seem quite right.

I'd probably use that as a reason to play the most angsty-emo character ever.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-21, 11:10 PM
But does this make sense to you on a role-play standpoint? I mean, being able to be trapped by both magic circles against good and circles agains evil just doesn't seem quite right.

Seems fine to me. The devil is still composed of condensed Pure Evil, so anti-Evil stuff still repels them on a fundamental level. However, they are also Good creatures, and so anti-Good stuff repels them for the same reason it works on normal Good creatures.

Frosty
2008-04-21, 11:12 PM
Actually, it kind of does.

As I see it, having an alignment subtype means that your body is partly composed of the essence of that alignment (presumably because you're an outsider native to a plane with a strong alignment trait, and are thus composed partly of the essence of that plane). It pervades your very being in a literal sense. Meanwhile, as a sapient creature you have a choice in your decisions, which results in an alignment (like any other sapient creature).

It's like the Outsider type's description says: Your body and soul form a single unit. In this case, the body has an alignment of its own, and effects can react to the "physical" alignment just like they can to the "spiritual" alignment.

So normally evil outsiders are made of...well...evil. If her outlook and very way of seeing the world becomes good, then shouldn't the very essense of what she is change as well? The soul can only have one alignment, and for outsiders, the soul IS the body.

Rutee
2008-04-21, 11:13 PM
Sanctify should probably remove an opposed alignment subtype, really. I see where Frosty's coming from, even if y'all are accurate to RAW metaphysics.

Jasdoif
2008-04-21, 11:27 PM
So normally evil outsiders are made of...well...evil. If her outlook and very way of seeing the world becomes good, then shouldn't the very essense of what she is change as well? The soul can only have one alignment, and for outsiders, the soul IS the body.I see "its soul and body form one unit" as meaning that the two are inseparably tied to the same container.


But really, at this point we're deep in the intricacies of the alignment system in D&D, which is certainly not the most stable system in existence. It posits that alignment is not solely a philosophical matter, but that the four alignment axises are tangible forces in the multiverse; a concept that can be far from conducive to role-playing.

And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the concept behind having an alignment opposed to your alignment subtype was simply a step from the restrictive "no, you can't play a nonevil Succubus" to the effectively-though-not-technically-restrictive "you can play a nonevil Succubus, but you'll pay for it".


EDIT:
Sanctify should probably remove an opposed alignment subtype, really. I see where Frosty's coming from, even if y'all are accurate to RAW metaphysics.I agree that there should be a way to remove the alignment subtype, but the sanctified template is just painful. There should be a less drastic (and far more consistently presented) option for redeeming such a creature.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 12:19 AM
But really, at this point we're deep in the intricacies of the alignment system in D&D, which is certainly not the most stable system in existence. It posits that alignment is not solely a philosophical matter, but that the four alignment axises are tangible forces in the multiverse; a concept that can be far from conducive to role-playing.

I posit that alignment *is* a philosophical matter, and that the tangible forces of the alignments are just physical manifestations of said philosophies. Hence my difficulty in accepting that an Erinyes who has turned her back on evil would be affected by Smite Good (and Smite Lawful), since the philosophies powering her subtybe has changed.

Jasdoif
2008-04-22, 12:24 AM
I posit that alignment *is* a philosophical matter, and that the tangible forces of the alignments are just physical manifestations of said philosophies. Hence my difficulty in accepting that an Erinyes who has turned her back on evil would be affected by Smite Good (and Smite Lawful), since the philosophies powering her subtybe has changed.OK.

That's really the point. The standard rules are meant to support the standard view of alignments; since that isn't the view you hold, naturally there's some disconnect. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 12:46 AM
What do you think of the standard alignment rules?

Hell, I'm not even sure I completely understand the standard alignment rules. If they're crystal clear, we wouldn't have alignment threads every week.

Jasdoif
2008-04-22, 01:32 AM
What do you think of the standard alignment rules?

Hell, I'm not even sure I completely understand the standard alignment rules. If they're crystal clear, we wouldn't have alignment threads every week.Well, they're fine if you don't think about them too much. Which I suppose is great if your game is intentionally light on the roleplaying. I imagine the system was set up so that it'd be quick and easy to establish "we're Good, defeat Evil!" theme for PCs without needing to delve into questions of morality.

If you're more interested in roleplaying, though....The problem is that alignments aren't meant to be straitjackets, yet creatures have "concrete" alignments and effects based on them; that questions of alignments are often subjective, yet at the same time are also judged objectively to some degree; and that Law and Chaos aren't defined well enough in the PHB. Ultimately, the alignment axises themselves are defined passably, but fitting a particular act (or worse, character) into them can erupt into a nightmare.

There's a great article on Law and Chaos (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a) at WOTC's site, I recommend it for understanding those better.

Jayngfet
2008-04-22, 01:54 AM
hang on, how did this thread go to alignments?

Jayngfet
2008-04-22, 06:14 PM
well I homebrewed it, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78646)

Khanderas
2008-04-23, 02:46 AM
I posit that alignment *is* a philosophical matter, and that the tangible forces of the alignments are just physical manifestations of said philosophies. Hence my difficulty in accepting that an Erinyes who has turned her back on evil would be affected by Smite Good (and Smite Lawful), since the philosophies powering her subtybe has changed.
You position does make sense and is a valid way to look at it.
I do find the other way (Good succibus blips both good and evil, affected by both prot from good and prot from evil and so on) more intresting and would use that instead.