View Full Version : If you were in my shoes...

2008-04-21, 07:38 AM
What would you build?

After a particularly nasty fight against a ghost wizard and his hordes of undead minions, my cleric ended up going to -10 just as the fight ended... (Greater Dispel Magic, Maximized Enervation, Cloudkill, Evard's... the ghost didn't like elves)...

So now I sit with the option wide open as to what to make and play. The DM is allowing me to come back in at the same level since I died as a result of good gameplay and not because I just felt like switching.

The Party (all around level 12)
Dwarf Fighter - Uberchargin' cleave mastah.
Whisper Gnome Scout/Ranger/Rogue [Melee] - Skill monkey doin' the scout dance.
Wizard/Geometer/Fatespinner - He makes us fly and then blows stuff up.
Human Marshal/Chameleon - We don't know he's a chameleon... we think he's a marshal wizard. Like... we didn't even know OUT of character until recently.
Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Theurge - he gets Healing Blast soon.

Edit: The marshal has a cohort. Monk/Shadow Sun Ninja, 11th level.

I -was- a Cleric/Radiant Servant/Sacred Exorcist.

Now I can be annnnything. Level 12. All books but the setting specific stuff (pretty much).

What would you make? I did make a jade pheonix mage as a backup char... but the wizard covers the majority of what i'd be doing. Maybe a normal ToB character.. Anything really.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-21, 07:43 AM
How often can Healing Blast be used, and how good is it? Being as there isn't a full healer in the group unless the Warloc/Cleric would be effective, I would suggest Favoured Soul while taking Vigour spells due to them being more cost effective then Cure spells as long as you have time for them to work. Alternatively, if you need more Knowledge, an Archivist would probably work well (you would really be needed on the frontline that badly due to the other party member's classes).

2008-04-21, 07:44 AM
Healing Blast converts his Eldritch Blast (which I think is 7d6... maybe 8d6) into a healing blast... that can be shaped like a normal eldritch blast (he has Chain right now, so he'd get 3 people with it)... and it costs a turn attempt to do it... of which he will have like 7-10.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-21, 07:46 AM
That sounds pretty effective. Perhaps a Druid would work well? It's always a good idea to have a back-up healer, and you'd be useful in combat and wilderness scenaios. If you didn't want to be overpowered, the Shapeshifter variant would probably work well.

2008-04-21, 12:08 PM
What about a Crusader? They get some limited heal-like abilities right?

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-21, 12:38 PM
I honestly don't know that much about the ToB classes. I think Crusaders get 1 ability which allows them to use Fast Healing 2 on all allies within 30 ft. as long as they are fighting, but I don't know anything specific about them (they may have a maneuver which can be used for more effective on-the-spot healing).

2008-04-21, 12:40 PM
Hmm. Druid may work... I just don't want to go 'zilla and overshadow everyone.. (I almost did with my cleric... persisted divine power was fun... till it got dispelled)

2008-04-21, 12:44 PM
Crusaders get multiple abilities that heal, including a stance that lets them heal 2 hp to anyone within 30 feet whenever they hit an enemy. The downside to their abilities is they're all combat oriented and can't really be used during down time.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-21, 12:45 PM
That's why I suggested the Shapeshifter variant (if you think Spontaneous SNA is too powerful, you could ask the DM if you could use the Sponaneous Rejuvination variant as well: Chronicled said a while back that he found that Druid variant was well balanced). If your not familiar with these variants, check out page 38 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf .

2008-04-21, 12:49 PM
If it's wide open, what do you enjoy more? blasting things w/ spells or hitting them w/ a big stick?

2008-04-21, 12:50 PM
If you want to do ToB, you could go Swordsage 7/Master of nine 3/Legacy Champion 2. If you go legacy champion all the way to level 20 and add the level bonuses, to master of nine, you will have a lot of maneuvers readied and known.

2008-04-21, 12:53 PM
Hmm. Variant Druid... I'll have to read exactly what they do at each level.. but that may work.

I dont want to leave them without ANY healing... My Darts of Life were kinda important.

I did like the Idea of a Favored Soul/Malconvoker... and that could easily serve as back up healing as well.

Moff Chumley
2008-04-21, 12:55 PM
How about a Bard?

This party has all of the main character types covered, though more healing wouldn't be out of the question. Melee combat appears to be pretty well covered. My recommendation is a Dragon Shaman (Extra healing and clericness, more melee, some odd abilities), War Weaver (buff everyone), or Druid (Healing, druidy goodness)

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-21, 12:58 PM
What exactly is a Malconvoker? I've never heard of those before.

2008-04-21, 01:01 PM
A good summoner that uses bluff to summon evil creatures and lies to them to stick around longer, etc.

2008-04-21, 01:02 PM
It's a PrC from Comp. Scoundrel that lets a good cleric trick demons into doing their bidding. Nicely flavorful and gets a bunch of bonuses to the summon planar ally line of spells.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-21, 01:07 PM
Thanks for telling me (it sounds interesting). Just out of curiosity, does it grant any armour proficiencies, and does it cause you to lose spell levels? (The latter shouldn't be that much of an issue in this particular game, but I'm just curious).

2008-04-21, 01:14 PM
I think it loses only 1 casting level... and gets all sorts of goodies to make up for it (like any time you summon, you get +1 creatures... so summon 1 imp, get 2 imps! and they all have extra HP... etc)

Mastering the Malconvoker (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13677754#post13677754) - On the Char Op Boards

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-21, 01:20 PM
Thanks for giving me the link. If the class has poor BAB and/or a worse HD, you may want to pick a diety which would allow you to focus on ranged combat (Ehlonna would give you free Longbow proficiency with WF and WS for that weapon).

2008-04-21, 01:26 PM
Crusader can make you both a secondary healer, and a secondary commander, so you can help the warlock and the marshall, while still being able to fight effectively.

2008-04-21, 01:37 PM
I'd try Ruby Knight Vindicator or maybe Crusader-based Eternal Blade or Master of Nine. Also, Druid is always a good choice, of course, but if you've been looking at ToB, there're tons of good options, including the mentioned. Eternal Blade just kicks ass with all the abilities (you'll want some Int and probably few Warblade-levels though), Master of Nine is an incredibly versatile character that can literally be whatever you want it to be, and Ruby Knight Vindicator has few completely unique abilities, most importantly the ability to burn Turn-attempts for extra Swift Actions. So yea, all of those should be enjoyable, or even just a straight ToB-character; Swordsage, maybe?

How about Bard > Arcane Archer > Sublime Chord > Gish? You're on high enough level to pick it up. There's even that Prestige that allows you to pick up Heal so you'd be a full-fledged curing machine in addition to being a master singer, a master of the arcane arts and a superb ranged combatant.

Maybe something Psionic? There's a ton of fun character concepts in there, and around level 20, those damage moving/self-healing comboes have already kicked in so healing is no real problem. A straight Psion is tons of fun and quite powerful.

The sky's the limit. Have fun.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 01:40 PM
Personally I'd go Crusader maybe dip cleric and take Ruby Knight Vindicator (though that might be too close to what you were before). Though if you go Dwarf, you could take Deepstone Sentinel or Elf and Eternal Blade. Of course, Crusader is pretty good for all 20 levels, so straight Crusader would be fun. Another option I would consider is Warblade into Bloodstorm Blade and go ranged by throwing greatswords...and power attacking!

Reel On, Love
2008-04-21, 01:42 PM
Yeah, go for a Ruby Knight Windicator. Cleric *and* Crusader goodies.

2008-04-21, 01:42 PM
Yeah, I think I'll whip up a crusader when I get home today... (Curse no having books at work!)

Thanks for your input guys. I may be back to ask about the maneuvers... cause ... I'm pretty dumb when it comes to selecting ones that are actually effective :smallwink:

2008-04-21, 01:49 PM
CW Samurai.

Or maybe a Feral Goliath VoP Monk with a focus on grappling.

2008-04-21, 02:09 PM
Assuming I go for Crusader... Two-Handed weapon or sword-and-board style? Am I relying more on Maneuvers than the 2-to-1 power attack?

(Note, the charging dwarf is sword and board... not exactly uber charger, but his dwarven waraxe does do a lot of damage.)

2008-04-21, 02:25 PM
Sword & Board is actually half-decent for a Crusader thanks to the Devoted Spirit-maneuver which allows giving an ally your Shield-bonus +4. However, THF is still better as you can wield a reach weapon for battlefield control (that's what Crusader really is THE best at, thanks to Thicket of Blades). PA can be good, but your maneuvers kinda have that covered.

Really, the good thing about Crusader is that anything works. Sword & Board is ok, THF is good, but both are possible as your maneuvers give you damage and battlefield control.

Paul H
2008-04-21, 02:53 PM

The Eldritch Theurge with Extra Turning feat & good charisma is excellent start.

Also look into the Wraith's Woe in Magic Item Compendium.

Three items (Choker, Gauntlets & Shirt), cost 24,000gp does:

+2 AC vs undead
Protects vs 3 Neg lvls/day
Ignore incorporeal miss chance
+1 D6 melee dam vs incorporeal
Permanent Hide from Undead - ignore undead int (std action to reapply after attack undead)
Detect Undead at will
1/day cure all stat damage to all stats, plus all drain to one stat.

Also try xx/Kensai 7. Upgrade weapon to:
Weapon +1/Holy/Sacred Burst/Ghost Strike with Lssr Revelation Crystal.

You can now hit Incorporeal, do Holy damage, even reveal Incorporeal creatures. Also do extra damage to Undead & Evil Outsiders, more on crit. (See description).

(Also having problem with undead in home campaign - using Samurai 1/Ftr 4/Kensai 6).

Paul H

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 03:11 PM
Assuming I go for Crusader... Two-Handed weapon or sword-and-board style? Am I relying more on Maneuvers than the 2-to-1 power attack?

(Note, the charging dwarf is sword and board... not exactly uber charger, but his dwarven waraxe does do a lot of damage.)

Since it seems you aren't too worried about optimization, it really doesn't matter, especially with Crusader since you'll never run out of maneuvers to pull. So, in short, go with which you like best for fluff reasons.

2008-04-21, 03:18 PM
Dragonfire Adept Baby. Soooo much funzorz.

Moff Chumley
2008-04-21, 04:15 PM
I'd say THF, but thats personal preference. Out of curiosity, does your DM allow for tweaks in existing prestige classes if they don't unbalance the game? There are countless ways to improve your gaming experience if you can alter rules to fit your gaming style.

2008-04-21, 04:17 PM
No customizing sadly...

I do like the crusader. Thinking about two-handing a Maul.

EDIT: This is what I came up with...

Stances Known:
Martial Spirit
Iron Guard's Glare
Thicket of Blades

Maneuvers Known:
Tactical Strike
Defensive Rebuke
White Raven Strike
Law Bearer
Irresistble Mountain Strike
Crusader's Strike
Revitalizing Strike
Divine Surge
Elder Mountain Hammer
Rallying Strike

2008-04-21, 05:57 PM
If you take White Raven, take one of the charges; they ignore AoOs which is sweet. Also, take White Raven Tactics. Your allies will vuw u. Some other boosts could help too.

2008-04-21, 06:06 PM
What's a good 2 handed weapon that isn't a spiked chain? It can be exotic... I just always feel dirty using a spiked chain. It's the kind of taint that doesnt wash off... Kinda like browsing 4chan.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 06:23 PM
What's a good 2 handed weapon that isn't a spiked chain? It can be exotic... I just always feel dirty using a spiked chain. It's the kind of taint that doesnt wash off... Kinda like browsing 4chan.

Heavy Poleaxe (CW) - 2d6 (P or S)damage 20/x3 crit, Polearm, 10ft reach, set vs. charge, shared focus Halberd
Dwarven Warpike (RoS) - 2d6 (P or S)damage 20/x3 crit, Polearm, 10ft reach, set vs. charge, trip
(both are exotic)

They are basically the same except that you can trip with the Warpike but the Poleaxe counts as a halberd and thus works as a White Raven favored weapon.

I would like to second the Clarion Commander feat, the rogue will love.

2008-04-21, 06:28 PM
I was thinking of taking Clarion Commander or ... the... devoted spirit one...

I shall go with the Poleaxe :) Thanks for pointing that out.

2008-04-21, 06:42 PM
You can also go with a Martial Weapon + the Short Haft-feat (or just a martial weapon if you don't mind having to get creative when they sneak near). Glaive and Guisarme are both respectable options, and less feat intensive (remember, you're not making a Fighter so you don't have infinite feats). As far as Exotics go, Longaxe is intriguing if not terribly efficient.

2008-04-21, 06:46 PM

H- EWP (Heavy Poleaxe)
1 - Weapon Focus (Heavy Poleaxe)
3 - White Raven Defense
6 - Clarion Commander
9 - Short Haft
12 - ?

Maybe Combat Reflexes?

2008-04-21, 06:58 PM
If you go for lockdownish build, yes, Combat Reflexes may actually be better to pick up already earlier. Also, Stone Power is a fine feat for Crusaders; it synergizes very well with the delayed damage pool as you take the damage at the EoT, by when you already have the temporary HP. Also, the Furious Counterstrike mitigates the lack of accuracy caused by Stone Power (Stone Power shines earlier; now it's merely 'good').

Of course, Power Attack is still good too; you have a Two-Handed Weapon, little reason not to pick it up. 12th feat should probably be Robilar's if you pick up Combat Reflexes. I feel you're sort of wasting a feat on the Poleaxe; effectively it's a Guisarme with d6 dice instead of d4 (and an additional damage type). That doesn't really warrant a feat in my book; it's effectively a 2-point damage increase and a very sitiuational ability. Crusader is featlight to start with, so I advice against that. Remember that favoured weapon is rarely relevant and there's literally nothing in White Raven that has anything to do with Favoured Weapons. It's most important for Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw due to Bloodclaw Master and Shadow Blade respectively; other than that, they just affect few feats not generally worth picking up to start with. And if you don't plan on tripping, Glaive is going to be superior too. Generally EWP is worth picking up if you can get a weapon that can hit with reach and next to you, or a weapon with exceptional stats. Other than that, generally your feats are more powerful than that.

EDIT: You don't get Weapon Aptitude-benefits so you can't pick up Weapon Focus-improvements and alone the feat is very mediocre. Yes, it's an improvement upon not having it, but a small one; if you can pick up Melee Weapon Mastery, things are a bit different as +2 to hit and to damage is a lot, but as it stands, it's hardly worth the feats - there're lots of good feats for THF Crusaders.

2008-04-21, 07:04 PM
Hmm, that's solid advice... I don't know if I want to go with a lockdown build... and White Raven Defense/Clarion Commander would require me to switch one of my stances known to a White Raven Stance.

Thicket of Blades is still decent without reach, provoking is provoking... maybe I'll go Sword and Board.

2008-04-21, 07:22 PM
Whatever you do, pick up Robilar's. You'll benefit much more of it than your opponent :P

Bob the Urgh
2008-04-21, 07:47 PM
ahh, come on, Ogre Warhulk with a harpoon

2008-04-21, 07:54 PM

H-Combat Reflexes,
1 - Weapon Focus Guisarme
3 - White Raven Defense
6 - Clarion Commander
9 - Short Haft
12 - Robilar's Gambit

How's that?

2008-04-21, 08:09 PM
Weapon Focus isn't really worth a feat, especially not in a build like this that has literally a billion feat chains to choose from. Power Attack or Stone Power instead. Or heck, Combat Expertise if you have the stats, preparing for Improved Trip (although since you don't have Setting Sun, I don't know if you wanna do it the vanilla way). Or Devoted Bulwark or some of the tacticals from ToB; Tacticals are always fun as they give you multiple options. Heck, you could pick up some intriguing PHBII Tacticals or even ones from Complete Warrior (or at least start a chain towards them).

2008-04-21, 08:10 PM
Weapon Focus is a pre-req for Short Haft, that's why I put it in there.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 08:17 PM
Weapon Focus is a pre-req for Short Haft, that's why I put it in there.

Do you allow Dragon magazine or Dragon Compendium? If so, take Shorten Grip instead (DR331 p28/DC p108). No prerequisites, no action required, you always threaten adjacent squares, though you take a -2 penalty to attack in them.

2008-04-21, 08:18 PM
I can check with my DM about that. Thanks for the heads up.

2008-04-21, 08:18 PM
Why use short haft? In most situations you could just take a five foot step, and if not, just use armor spikes/spiked gauntlet.

2008-04-21, 08:19 PM
... Duh. I forgot about the whole spiked gauntlet route.

Ok, Stone Power for one of the opened feats... one left.

2008-04-21, 08:25 PM
Extra Granted Maneuver. Gets you more choices out of the crusader's random maneuver recovery.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 08:28 PM
Well, Stand Still is always a good feat.

Edit: Oh and Extra Granted Maneuver is really good as well.

2008-04-21, 08:31 PM
I knew I forgot something. Anyways, for the remaining feat, Combat Expertise-chain is a solid option, as is going for Shock Trooper or Combat Brute. Also, Devoted Bulwark in anticipation Faith Unswerving (a personal favourite) could be decent; Faith Unswerving gives you limited ability to protect allies (chances are, those hits won't hurt you as bad), a stylish stunt in One Last Strike and finally, the ability to follow up on anyone trying to leave your reach to cast spells or whatever. Adaptive Style is a good ability to have if you have lots of different stuff that works depending on the sitiuation (such as maneuvers that make hitting easier, defensive maneuvers, maneuvers against certain alignments and so on).

Oh, except one thing:
Extra Granted Maneuver

Every Crusader has that. Period. I almost forgot since I assume it to be automatic, but seems like we've all forgotten about it.

2008-04-21, 08:31 PM
Well, Stand Still is always a good feat.

Edit: Oh and Extra Granted Maneuver is really good as well.

That's true. It's just always good. And Up The Walls is always good as well.

Build a halfling invisible blade/Master thrower! You'll need fighter levels to get all the feats you need before like level 30, but hot damn. That'll be awesome. Dervish too, just so you can be 3/4 not base classes.

2008-04-21, 09:01 PM

Combat Reflexes, Stone Power, Extra Granted Maneuver, White Raven Defense, Clarion Commander, Robilar's Gambit

Str 15 (18 after level bumps), Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8 Wis 10, Cha 14

88,000 to spend.

+3 Mithral Full Plate - 19650
- Greater Crystal of Arrow Deflection - 5000
+1 Animated Steel Shield - 9170
+2 Guisarme - 8309
+1 Spiked Gauntlet - 2305

43,566 remaining

... adds up quickly.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 09:23 PM
43,566 remaining
Usually, I (and my players) get items that we think are neat and at least one person needs the following:

Heward's Handy Haversack containing one of every mundane item in the Arms and Equipment Guide (under the equipment section that is), including an Adamantine Dagger and/or Adamantine Crowbar, plus all the mundane items in Dungeonscape and a rust monster wand.
We just say 5000gp and be done with it.

Of course, that's just our group. For you I'd suggesta Str boosting item, so Belt of Giant Strength +4 (16,000gp). Ring of Blinking (27,000gp) is a better investment than the +3 armor, if you drop that to a +2 you get 5,000gp back or get light Fortification instead. So, if you go with the belt and the ring and don't change the bonus on the armor you have 566gp left.

2008-04-21, 09:27 PM
Actually, I can get back 5000 from just dropping that crystal... I just read the description and it only works against ranged weapon attacks... I was hoping it was +5 vs ALL ranged attacks (pesky spellcasters!)

The Sandman
2008-04-21, 09:58 PM
Add the White Raven bonus to your weapon (it costs the same as a +1 enchantment); it gives some very nice bonuses when used in conjunction with your Thicket of Blades Stance. Adding Transmuting to your weapon is also fun; breaking damage reduction is a sweet ability to have.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 10:37 PM
Add the White Raven bonus to your weapon (it costs the same as a +1 enchantment); it gives some very nice bonuses when used in conjunction with your Thicket of Blades Stance. Adding Transmuting to your weapon is also fun; breaking damage reduction is a sweet ability to have.

It probably is better than a normal +1 bonus, you lose the +1 to damage but you gain an extra +2 to attacks as part of white raven maneuvers. I don't know, if you have a lot of WR, maybe, but otherwise, I'd keep the normal +1. On a slightly related topic, has anyone ever actually used martial scripts? or the discipline items that grant maneuvers (i.e. Crown of the White Raven, Iron heart Vest, etc.)?

Paul H
2008-04-22, 12:37 PM

Saw all the posts re Crusader class, not sure where it's from.

Prefer to keep things simple, & only have limited number of books, but:

xx/Kensai 7, with oversized greatsword (3D6) & Strongarm Bracers. (No penalty with larger weapons).

Upgrade weapon to:

Weapon +1/Holy/Sacred/Heavenly Burst/Ghost Strike with Lssr Revelation Crystal.
Also take full Wraith's Woe

Str 20, plus using Kensai +8 Str non-specific bonus;

Basic Dam vs Undead;
3D6 (Sword) + 2D6 (Holy) + 1D6 (Sacred) + 3 (Enhancement) + 13 (str mod) + anything else. More if it's Incorporeal.

Crit vs Undead: (Yes you can - Ghost Strike)
6D6 (Sword) + 2D6 (Holy) + 1D6 (Sacred) + 3D6 (Heavenly Burst) + 26 (Str Mod) + 6 (Enhancement) + anything else.

Again, even more if it's incorporeal.
Even worse against Evil Outsiders.

Paul H
PS If you can afford the extra 30,000GP, try getting Prismatic Burst wpn ((MIC Pg 40). On crit affects target (only target).as Prismatic Spray. Works well with Ghost Strike wpns vs undead.

2008-04-22, 12:49 PM
That does sound appealing, I decided to go with the Crusader. I started a new thread this morning dedicated just to him, trying to get him to work out.

Thanks for the input :smallbiggrin: