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AKA_Bait
2008-04-21, 10:48 AM
I'm not sure if this thread really belongs here, and apologies to the Mods ahead of time if it must be moved. This just seemed like the forum where I might get the most feedback.

So, I'm getting married and as the gift for my Groomsmen I'm strongly inclined to give them each a swept hilt rapier, which would look nice (potentially nice enough for them to wear during the ceremony) and they would think is pretty cool. Two questions:

1. Am I insane? Some people seem to think that if I give the groomsmen swords, there will be dueling. I'm not inclined to think so, knowing my friends, and besides, I wouldn't give them sharpened ones (which would be illegal in NY even if it wasn't a really dumb idea).

2. Do you have any recommendations of places in New York or Websites that have reasonably priced swords? Do you know of any that would do engraving or of places that would engrave a sword?

Wooter
2008-04-21, 10:54 AM
Museum replicas has all sorts of swords, including rapiers. They also have blunt stage rapiers if you need them.

Lord Herman
2008-04-21, 11:28 AM
That sounds like an awesome idea. Go for it!

When buying a rapier (or any other sword, for that matter), do ask if it's only for display, or if you can actually use it in combat. I don't know about you, but if I had a sword, I'd like to be able to fight with it without breaking it.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-21, 11:45 AM
Sounds like a cool idea.

Try researching swordsmiths and the like here: http://www.myarmoury.com/home.php

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-21, 11:50 AM
I think that this is a bad idea. Chances are your groomsmen won't have taken weapon finesse as a feat, and they'll be annoyed with having to use gifts that they can't use.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-21, 11:52 AM
Well, I don't really know where to get such a sword, but I will say this: you aren't insane. Lots of people of themed weddings, in fact two of my friends (twin sisters) had a double wedding with a renaissance theme since they are Shakespearean actresses. It was pretty cool, but I don't remember if anyone had swords...I did dress up as an executioner though, that was pretty awesome!

The_Werebear
2008-04-21, 11:53 AM
My concern here would be how the rest of the people (namely, the other person up on the dias who isn't a priest) would react to the groom wearing a sword. If everyone is ok with it, then I don't see an issue. Though this might ruin the surprise, you might want to check with the guy first.

Just an engraved display sword, though would be amazing. I highly recommend that.

EvilElitest
2008-04-21, 11:59 AM
do you want display or functional? Also i think this should be in Friendly Banter
from
EE

AKA_Bait
2008-04-21, 12:00 PM
My concern here would be how the rest of the people (namely, the other person up on the dias who isn't a priest) would react to the groom wearing a sword.

Well, I wouldn't be wearing one, although my best man would be. My fiance is cool with it and I suspect her sister (the maid of honor) might be annoyed but only if she doesn't get one too. The Minister is my mom, so I think she isn't worried.


If everyone is ok with it, then I don't see an issue. Though this might ruin the surprise, you might want to check with the guy first.

I already have.


Just an engraved display sword, though would be amazing. I highly recommend that.

That's the most likley thing in any case. I'm at this point just trying to find a good place but one where I can also keep the costs reasonable. Weddings are pricey.

Dr Bwaa
2008-04-21, 12:03 PM
First, congratulations, and second, I definitely think it is a good idea and recommend weaponmasters.com (http://weaponmasters.com/shopping/Rapiers-p-1-c-274.html).
I've linked the the first "rapiers" spot I found, but there are many more around the site if you look for them.

The_Werebear
2008-04-21, 12:12 PM
Whoops..

Misread the question slightly. Curse my distraction. If it's your wedding (and Congrats), then there shouldn't be a problem at all. But yeah, Maid of Honor should get one too then if she wants. :smallamused:

Wasn't the original purpose of the groomsmen and bridesmaids to fight off or distract anyone who came to kidnap the bride/kill the groom?

AKA_Bait
2008-04-21, 12:14 PM
Whoops..

Misread the question slightly. Curse my distraction. If it's your wedding (and Congrats), then there shouldn't be a problem at all. But yeah, Maid of Honor should get one too then if she wants. :smallamused:

Wasn't the original purpose of the groomsmen and bridesmaids to fight off or distract anyone who came to kidnap the bride/kill the groom?

Yeah, that's kind of why I wanted to give mine swords. :smallbiggrin:



First, congratulations, and second, I definitely think it is a good idea and recommend weaponmasters.com.
I've linked the the first "rapiers" spot I found, but there are many more around the site if you look for them.

This might be exactly what I'm looking for, especially since they appear to do engraving too. Awesome. Thanks!

Pirate_King
2008-04-21, 12:47 PM
...can I be one of your groomsmen?

Baxbart
2008-04-21, 01:06 PM
Yeah, that's kind of why I wanted to give mine swords. :smallbiggrin:


So... are you expecting many kidnappers/would-be assassins?

AKA_Bait
2008-04-21, 01:11 PM
So... are you expecting many kidnappers/would-be assassins?

No, but I'm not a big fan of tradition and generally try to avoid doing things traditionally when I can. However, in the instances where tradition really can't be ducked without offending people, I like to have a little reminder of what the tradition was about in the first place.

And hey, you never know.:smallwink:

Roderick_BR
2008-04-21, 01:29 PM
1. Am I insane? Some people seem to think that if I give the groomsmen swords, there will be dueling. I'm not inclined to think so, knowing my friends, and besides, I wouldn't give them sharpened ones (which would be illegal in NY even if it wasn't a really dumb idea).
Does people assume knife fights if they gain silverware? Go ahead. I think that finely crafted swords and hilts would be a cool living room decoration.

Fhaolan
2008-04-21, 02:34 PM
Okay, sources for rapiers. This is very much dependant on how much you're willing to spend:

Start off with the 'far out of the price range' stuff, just to get it out of the way: http://www.armor.com/rapier211.html

Anything by Paul Chen/Henwei is of reasonable quality for the price. This particular one is rigged with a blunt blade for fencing already: http://www.swordsdirect.com/fencing-swords-schlaeger-blade.html

And if you're going all the way down, might as well scrape the barrel for cheap wallhanger stuff. You actually try to swing one of these things, and you deserve the damage it will do to the furniture as the blade breaks off and shoots off in some random direction: http://budk.com/medieval-spiral-rapiers/p/46%20BK495/c/6033/

As for having the blade etched, pretty much any good trophy place is going to have a laser etcher that can do steel (or chrome garbage in the case of the Bud-K special). There are places that do etching specifically as well. There's one in downtown Seattle that will etch pretty much anything if one person can pick it up and put it on their counter. Look for a place with a lot of crystal plaques and stuff with faces etched into them in the window.

Curmudgeon
2008-04-21, 02:57 PM
1. Am I insane? Some people seem to think that if I give the groomsmen swords, there will be dueling. No, those people are insane. We got Swiss Army knives at my sister's wedding rehearsal dinner. Should we have had knife fights?

Tools are tools -- and this applies to outdated tools, too. Tools don't kill people; idiots misusing them do. Just don't invite idiots to be groomsmen.

SurlySeraph
2008-04-21, 04:04 PM
1. You're crazy, but it's awesome enough to do anyway.

2. Uhhhh... well, I know where you can buy swords, but all the places in Chinatown pretty much only sell low-quality katanas. :smallwink: One of the links people have posted is probably your best bet.

skywalker
2008-04-21, 04:10 PM
I suspect her sister (the maid of honor) might be annoyed but only if she doesn't get one too.

Is she available? :smallwink:

I think it would be hilarious to see a knife-fight at the reception with silverware. I think most weddings for which that would be a problem are either:

1. Before a justice, and have no reception.
2. Have plastic, not silverware.
or 3. Are in Vegas.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-21, 04:15 PM
2. Uhhhh... well, I know where you can buy swords, but all the places in Chinatown pretty much only sell low-quality katanas. :smallwink: One of the links people have posted is probably your best bet.

Yeah, I pretty much assumed that the Canal street places wouldn't have anything western (and what they do have is 98% garbage.)


Is she available? :smallwink:


She is, but I suspect you are entirely the wrong gender for her tastes. :smallwink:

de-trick
2008-04-21, 06:14 PM
wasn't the whole point of groomsmen was to protect the wedding, and to make sure the wedding goes on. And they cared swords so this also brings a Renaissance feel to it.

Collin152
2008-04-21, 06:21 PM
Damn I envy your groomsmen.
Rapiers at a wedding? Sheer gold.

skywalker
2008-04-21, 06:29 PM
She is, but I suspect you are entirely the wrong gender for her tastes. :smallwink:

Damn. Any other bridesmaids?

Ralfarius
2008-04-21, 06:37 PM
That sounds like an awesome idea. Go for it!

When buying a rapier (or any other sword, for that matter), do ask if it's only for display, or if you can actually use it in combat. I don't know about you, but if I had a sword, I'd like to be able to fight with it without breaking it.
Be careful when asking about battle-usefulness. "Battle-ready" is a meaningless buzzword that weapon purveyors use to catch the attention of the misinformed.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/newsword.htm is a decent place to start looking at if you're giving serious consideration to the purchase. Even a single piece made out of cheap material and unfortunate crafting methods can cost multiple hundreds of dollars. You might be hard-pressed to get enough good-looking (if shoddily made) pieces to outfit your entire entourage, unless it's pretty small.

Here's a suggestion: Instead of a rapier or some other full length sword, consider A dirk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk), or other dagger/knife. They use a lot less material, and because of that not only are they less expensive, but also give you the potential to commission them from actual smiths. In that event, you'll also be able to have them come unsharpened, so they'll look good but have no cutting edge whatsoever. Also, the sgian dubh is part of the traditional Scottish formal wear, so you could pair them up with sporrans and kilts!

Crow
2008-04-21, 06:53 PM
Avoid anything stainless steel if you want them to have any functionality. I haven't gotten one, but I hear http://www.albion-swords.com/ makes good ones at affordable prices.

Yvian
2008-04-21, 07:24 PM
http://www.armor.com/

They do good work. I used to play GRUPs with one of the smiths. He always had an interesting take on combat.

Matthew
2008-04-21, 09:04 PM
Hey, congratulations on your impending marriage, AKA_Bait! I don't really have anything useful to add beyond my well wishes, I'm afraid. :smallsmile:

Roland St. Jude
2008-04-21, 09:11 PM
I gave swordcanes to my groomsmen (of course they were in fashion back in the 18th century when I got married :smallamused: ), and there was no duelling. They were much appreciated and I got slightly different ones for each groomsmen. They appreciated the personalization. It's been so long, I couldn't tell you where I got them (except that it was over the internet).

So...
1. Congratulations!
2. Only you can say if your groomsmen are the types who'll get crazy and start duelling.
3. Whether they are worn at the ceremony or not I think would have to be approved by all brides, grooms, and weapon-carriers involved.
4. Swordcanes are an elegant alternative with a bit less need for scabbards, belts, or bared blades.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-21, 09:32 PM
Congratulations.

http://www.weaponmasters.com/shopping/home.html

http://www.swordsofhonor.com/

http://www.kingofswords.com/

http://www.toledosword.com/main.html

http://www.by-the-sword.com/

Starsinger
2008-04-21, 09:42 PM
. . .back in the 18th century. . .(except that it was over the internet).

I call shenanigans :smalltongue:

valadil
2008-04-21, 09:45 PM
The cheapest I've seen online would be eBay. In person, try an SCA event (though make sure it has vendors first). I picked up a (decorative) bastard sword for $10 at an SCA event a couple years ago. Of course the problem with either of these options is you'll have quite a bit of shopping to do if you want matching rapiers for each of them.

de-trick
2008-04-21, 10:49 PM
dont buy stainless steel swords or this will happen

Break (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRUaxq-QhU)

AKA_Bait
2008-04-21, 11:19 PM
Avoid anything stainless steel if you want them to have any functionality. I haven't gotten one, but I hear http://www.albion-swords.com/ makes good ones at affordable prices.

Thanks, those look good but I can't seem to find any rapiers there and as much as I do like simple shortswords and the like, something more fancy is probably more appropriate.


http://www.armor.com/

They do good work. I used to play GRUPs with one of the smiths. He always had an interesting take on combat.

They look good but the $700 to $900 a pop puts them out of my price range. I have at least 5 groomsmen and that would push it way over budget.


Hey, congratulations on your impending marriage, AKA_Bait! I don't really have anything useful to add beyond my well wishes, I'm afraid. :smallsmile:

Thanks man! Well wishes are always more than enough! :smallbiggrin:



1. Congratulations!

Thanks!


4. Swordcanes are an elegant alternative with a bit less need for scabbards, belts, or bared blades.

Swordcanes were my original idea but unfortunaltley in New York they count a concealed weapons and are illegal. Most online places will not even ship them to New York State. I could work around this (by having them sent tofriends or something) but then getting the etching done also becomes a risky venture.


Congratulations.

http://www.weaponmasters.com/shopping/home.html

http://www.swordsofhonor.com/

http://www.kingofswords.com/

http://www.toledosword.com/main.html

http://www.by-the-sword.com/

Thanks. That's solid number of links! This is good, I was hoping to get each groomsman one of a slightly different style, so lots of options are good.


The cheapest I've seen online would be eBay. In person, try an SCA event (though make sure it has vendors first). I picked up a (decorative) bastard sword for $10 at an SCA event a couple years ago. Of course the problem with either of these options is you'll have quite a bit of shopping to do if you want matching rapiers for each of them.

Hadn't really thought of that, as I've never really looked into SCA, but it's a good idea. Having a different one for each groomsman isn't a problem. Ideally I'd like to give them each a different one, although that may be cost prohibitive.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-22, 12:40 PM
dont buy stainless steel swords or this will happen

Break (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRUaxq-QhU)

So carbon steel rather than stainless steel? I don't know that much about steel.

Fhaolan
2008-04-22, 01:32 PM
So carbon steel rather than stainless steel? I don't know that much about steel.

In the most basic sense; stainless steel is very hard, compared to carbon steel. The harder steel is, the more brittle it is. There are other factors, and ways to mitigate the problem, but those swordmakers who have the knowledge and skill to do so rarely if ever work in stainless as there is very little gain for them. Much like working with aluminum, titanium, stellite and other 'exotic' metals, they are just not as good overall as plain regular steel for sword blades. The drawbacks vastly outweigh their benefits.

However, if you want inexpensive and you don't want them to actually be *used* for anything other than as display, a lot of very pretty swords are made out of stainless. Just be warned that any cheap blade will snap if you try to hit anything with it, and in many case you don't even need to hit anything. The weight of the blade itself will cause a fracture when subjected to the forces in a swing of the sword.

Most of the time it won't actually be in the blade itself that snaps, it will be in the tang. A lot of cheap blades are 'rat-tailled', which means that the tang (the part of the blade that extends into the grip) is really just a long bolt that has been welded onto the blade. Most sword failures are right at this weld. (And as a note, stainless blades tend to fail here a lot more often than regular steel swords, as welding stainless is a skill unto itself.) If you really want to piss off the sword-sellers at a ren-faire, ask to see the tang. They get really upset when they have to reveal that the blades are rat-tailled.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-22, 01:45 PM
In the most basic sense; stainless steel is very hard, compared to carbon steel. The harder steel is, the more brittle it is. There are other factors, and ways to mitigate the problem, but those swordmakers who have the knowledge and skill to do so rarely if ever work in stainless as there is very little gain for them. Much like working with aluminum, titanium, stellite and other 'exotic' metals, they are just not as good overall as plain regular steel for sword blades. The drawbacks vastly outweigh their benefits.

However, if you want inexpensive and you don't want them to actually be *used* for anything other than as display, a lot of very pretty swords are made out of stainless. Just be warned that any cheap blade will snap if you try to hit anything with it, and in many case you don't even need to hit anything. The weight of the blade itself will cause a fracture when subjected to the forces in a swing of the sword.

Most of the time it won't actually be in the blade itself that snaps, it will be in the tang. A lot of cheap blades are 'rat-tailled', which means that the tang (the part of the blade that extends into the grip) is really just a long bolt that has been welded onto the blade. Most sword failures are right at this weld. (And as a note, stainless blades tend to fail here a lot more often than regular steel swords, as welding stainless is a skill unto itself.) If you really want to piss off the sword-sellers at a ren-faire, ask to see the tang. They get really upset when they have to reveal that the blades are rat-tailled.

Good to know. Thanks. Important to keep an eye on as I shop. Although I don't expect to have my groomsmen dueling with them, I'd be very surprised if they didn't at least swing the thing a little after being given it and I'd really be embarassed if the blade snapped off at that point.

DraPrime
2008-04-22, 02:15 PM
I would suggest that the best man gets an especially awesome sword. After all, this is the best man. He deserves something super special awesome.

Jayabalard
2008-04-22, 02:35 PM
What's your time limit for shopping? Since you say "at least 5 groomsmen" it sounds like you might have a fair bit of time to do your shopping.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-22, 02:36 PM
I would suggest that the best man gets an especially awesome sword. After all, this is the best man. He deserves something super special awesome.

Oh don't worry about that. He (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=13104)will be getting a special one. I don't want to get to in depth with that here since I'd like that to be at least a little of a surprise (He know's he's getting a sword, but not what kind or what it looks like and he may well read this thread).


What's your time limit for shopping? Since you say "at least 5 groomsmen" it sounds like you might have a fair bit of time to do your shopping.

The wedding is tentativley set for June 20, 2009. So, I have over a year.

thorgrim29
2008-04-22, 02:56 PM
Congrats, first of all. Secondly.... thats a very awesome idea, a fencer myself, I plan to one day get a functionnal rapier.... However, if I may suggest getting a stylised sabre? Of course it's a cavalry weapon originally, but they look good, and more like what people think of when they think "sword".

fendrin
2008-04-22, 03:04 PM
Congratulations!
Got room for a sixth groomsman? Just Kidding :smallwink:

I almost got to wear a sword in a wedding (I was the best man). It really would have completed the look, as I was already in doublet and hose. Unfortunately, I would have had to provide my own sword, and couldn't afford it at the time. :smallyuk:

Fhaolan
2008-04-22, 03:33 PM
The wedding is tentativley set for June 20, 2009. So, I have over a year.

A year is a good amount of time.

My wife and I had a fantasy-styled wedding almost exactly five years ago. All the bride's and groom's people were already armed with their own equipment so it wasn't practical to get them yet more swords... :smallsmile: They were more bouncers than bodyguards as we had many guests who were armed and might have broken out in fights at any time... Not really kidding there, I was half expecting a couple of them to stage a fight just to freak out the rest of the guests.

The one recomendation I have is to ignore the wedding industry, and when you go searching for anything for the wedding, deliberately don't mention that it's for a wedding. We managed to pull it off for 1/4 the price because we bought all the stuff from the suppliers outside of the wedding industry.

Mind you, we were lucky. We know a lot of people who are performers or crafters, and we have a business licence so we were able to talk to bigger manufacturers directly without having to go through any middlemen. If you can do that, it's really worth it.

Jayabalard
2008-04-22, 04:26 PM
The one recomendation I have is to ignore the wedding industry, and when you go searching for anything for the wedding, deliberately don't mention that it's for a wedding. We managed to pull it off for 1/4 the price because we bought all the stuff from the suppliers outside of the wedding industry. Generally good advice; my wife picked up about 75% of the stuff that we used for decorations at Michaels and Joanne's on black Friday.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-22, 04:48 PM
I want to do this at my wedding, but I just know that every single male in my family would start a swordfight at one point or another. Hell, they'd start a swordfight without swords. Granted, I'd probably join in, but still. Even with blunted weapons, there would be injuries. Lots of them. We're a violent bunch. But I'm easily the most violent of the lot.

Once, I managed to beat my brother into submission with a gallon of milk. He had a foot-long carving knife that more resembled a scimitar that a tool. It was fun, though I never could wear that shirt again.

Tokiko Mima
2008-04-22, 05:22 PM
Hmm.. the only caution I've ever heard about weddings and swords is that in Japanese culture, it's considered to be bad luck for the bride and groom to recieve a wedding gift of anything sharp, be it a set of kitchen knives or other cutlery. Personally though, I think it would be a great idea to arm the groomsmen with rapiers. Men just tend to look better when they're armed and dangerous. :smallwink:

Oh, and congratulations! :smallsmile:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-22, 05:38 PM
Generally if the swords don't specify carbon steel in the description it is pretty safe to assume it's stainless.

Crow
2008-04-22, 06:32 PM
Beware "carbon steel". In case you didn't know, all steel is carbon steel! A lot of times, swordmakers will call their blades carbon steel, and this means nothing.

If you are looking for a decent sword, ask the maker what kind of steel they use. A good smith will be more than happy to tell you he uses 1086 bar stock, or L6 steel, or whatever he happens to use. If they will only say "carbon steel", just walk away. Also stay away from "spring steel" (literally the old springs from trucks and the like). This is usually good steel...before it was a truck spring. Now it will have micro fractures from "remembering" it's old shape.

Danzaver
2008-04-22, 07:07 PM
It's not insane.

I have been hired several times to perform (I do medieval sword fighting displays) at medieval-themed weddings. They are really growing in popularity.

Fhaolan
2008-04-22, 10:56 PM
Also stay away from "spring steel" (literally the old springs from trucks and the like). This is usually good steel...before it was a truck spring. Now it will have micro fractures from "remembering" it's old shape.

Oh lord, spring steel... I forgot to warn against spring steel. I apologize profusely.

A lot of older repro's from India and the like are made from truck springs. I'm not sure they're still doing that, but it's posible. Not only do they develop microfractures, but in many cases they will slowly warp back to the spring curve they 'remember'.

Ah, and about the Japanese culture thing, it's not just Japanese. My parents are from the UK, and they still cling to the idea that you must give a penny or some kind of currency with a gift of blades. The penny is then immediately returned to you. The idea being that the penny is the actual gift, and that they used it to purchase the blades from you. Actually giving someone a blade is bad luck, as it will 'sever' the relationship.

Or require them to give you fealty... the story changes around a bit occasionally. :smallbiggrin:

Ralfarius
2008-04-23, 03:50 AM
Or require them to give you fealty... the story changes around a bit occasionally. :smallbiggrin:
Oh, sweet. I want to build an army of minions by presenting them with blades. So elegant and simple!

AKA_Bait
2008-04-23, 06:56 AM
Ah, and about the Japanese culture thing, it's not just Japanese. My parents are from the UK, and they still cling to the idea that you must give a penny or some kind of currency with a gift of blades. The penny is then immediately returned to you. The idea being that the penny is the actual gift, and that they used it to purchase the blades from you. Actually giving someone a blade is bad luck, as it will 'sever' the relationship.

Humm. I had heard a sicilian variation on this from my own family. Supposedly you never give knives as a wedding present because it means that the couple will fight 'with sharp tounges' (despite that my parents got a some knives for their wedding but then they are lawyers and already had sharp tounges). This, however, only applies to the couple getting married, not to gifts to the wedding party from the couple as far as I know. Is that the case in the other traditions or is it univerally applicable?

Regarding fealty, no need. They wouldn't be my groomsmen if I didn't already know they had my back. :smallwink:

Fhaolan
2008-04-23, 08:30 AM
Humm. I had heard a sicilian variation on this from my own family. Supposedly you never give knives as a wedding present because it means that the couple will fight 'with sharp tounges' (despite that my parents got a some knives for their wedding but then they are lawyers and already had sharp tounges). This, however, only applies to the couple getting married, not to gifts to the wedding party from the couple as far as I know. Is that the case in the other traditions or is it univerally applicable?

Regarding fealty, no need. They wouldn't be my groomsmen if I didn't already know they had my back. :smallwink:

As far as I know, the tradition of a penny with a blade is wedding-independant. Meaning it would apply to any gift of a blade, regardless of the occasion.