Monk: Martial Controller?

[Human Paragon 3]

I was thinking of the 4e character roles and power sources and, as an exercise, was considering the Controller Role. Specifically, the Martial Controller. Currently, the only controller in 4e is the Wizard.

Then, it hit me- the Monk could be the martial controller. It's not in the PHB, but I think it won't be long before he finds his way into a splatbook, phb2 or the like. At first, it only sort of makes sense. The monk seems more like a defender or a striker, but with a few changes to its abillities it'd make a pretty good controller. Last week's monster preview was what actually connected the dots for me.

The time controlling monster was an arcane controller that had a few abillities that emparted stuns, slows and other status effects to PCs unlucky enough to tangle with them. Other abilities let it move in and empart the effect via an attack and/or imediately retreat. This is starting to sound like a monk focussing on stunning fist.

If the monk in 4e has an abundance of abillities like stunning fist, and the mobility to deliver those attacks where they need to be and/or retreat to safety, he'd be a better than fair controller, especially since he'd be more durable than his Arcane counterpart, the wizard. Other controlly monk abilities could be 1-inch push type powers that send enemies flying across the battlefield, setting-stun-styled mega throws, and ki powers that let them fly, pass through objects, walk on water, turn invisible etc. (i.e. eating the ninja and absorbing its powers).

The monk's primary weaknesses (lower BAB and dependency on full attacks) are completely gone from 4e base mechanics. Now, a mobile character has only advantages, since there is no "full attack" to penalize them. While fighters defend their allies and warlords empower them, the monk's variety of exotic attacks could prove devestating to enemies, pinning them down, depriving them of actions, controlling their movement, and relentlessly persuing them no matter where they run to.

Sounds like a character I'd like to play!

[Starsinger]

You just made Monk sound very attractive..

[JaxGaret]

Sounds like a reasonable proposition to me.

But my guess is that Monks will be a Martial Striker.

[metalbear]

I foresee the future thread topics on the playground already, "Monk: Totally Broken and OP".

[AmberVael]

I foresee the future thread topics on the playground already, "Monk: Totally Broken and OP".

Pun Pun help us all. :smalltongue:

And you know, that could be an interesting way for the Monk to go- and I could see them overcompensating for all the complaints about the monk class.

[JaxGaret]

And you know, that could be an interesting way for the Monk to go- and I could see them overcompensating for all the complaints about the monk class.

No no no, didn't you know, WotC is perfectly balancing every class to every other class right from the get go. And every splatbook released after that will harmoniously insert itself into the pantheon of 4e books without disrupting that balance in the slightest bit.

Everything is going to be perfect, people.

[Orzel]

There's a long long long thread on is at the Gleemax.

Martial Controller- No time soon.

The main problem is that controllers have aspects of their job (range AOE, ranged debuff, battlefield control, obstacle creation) that martial class can't perform well because it's gets too gimmicky, one trick pony, shifts to another role, or fail completely. This is because martial classes are more linked to reality that the other sources and reality sucks at single person control 'til it got decent guns.

The monk's fluff favors strike more too.

[FinalJustice]

Don't know the status of the discussion in gleemax, but the only issue you cited that I fully agree that gets to gimmicky is ranged AOE/debuff, things that a monk, given enough mobility, wouldn't need, at least not as much as a wizard. Debuff could be done with stuff like Dim Mak, chi control maneuvers and whatnot. Setting Sun'ish throws with some fire or bouncing added could do the AoE trick. The main difference between Monks and Wizards, gameplay wise, would be positioning in combat. They'd surely have a thing over wizards, meleeish resilience, buut they'd need to be in melee to do their job, unlike wizards, who could fight at a safe distance. It can be balanced if done right.

[JaxGaret]

The main problem is that controllers have aspects of their job (range AOE, ranged debuff, battlefield control, obstacle creation) that martial class can't perform well because it's gets too gimmicky, one trick pony, shifts to another role, or fail completely. This is because martial classes are more linked to reality that the other sources and reality sucks at single person control 'til it got decent guns.

A properly designed Controller Monk doesn't need ranged AoE, debuff, obstacle creation - they close with their enemies quickly and throw down their controls from there.

A Controller Monk could have powers that allow them to make attacks/debuffs on enemies that aren't adjacent to each other - like a Spring Attack during which they can make multiple stunning attacks.


The monk's fluff favors strike more too.

It's a bit here and a bit there really. The 3e Monk was a skirmisher first and foremost, with a little control thrown in. It wasn't a heavy damage dealer.

[RTGoodman]

One of my gaming buddies hasn't been keeping up with the 4E stuff, and a couple of months ago I tried to tell him about the various combos between role and power-source; Monk was the only thing I could come up with that could serve as a Martial Controller. (Well, Monk and Archer, but I doubt WotC will make any sort of Archer Controller - if there's anyone focused on archery, like Ranger, they'd probably make it a Striker.)

I don't know if Monks could handle everything a Wizard could do as a Controller (i.e., ranged stuff besides with shuriken, etc.), but they're eventually going to come up with a Martial Controller and Monk seems like it fits.

[FlyMolo]

You just made Monk sound very attractive..

Possibly for the first time in history.

[Orzel]

A properly designed Controller Monk doesn't need ranged AoE, debuff, obstacle creation - they close with their enemies quickly and throw down their controls from there.

A Controller Monk could have powers that allow them to make attacks/debuffs on enemies that aren't adjacent to each other - like a Spring Attack during which they can make multiple stunning attacks.



It's a bit here and a bit there really. The 3e Monk was a skirmisher first and foremost, with a little control thrown in. It wasn't a heavy damage dealer.


The whole thing about the conversation back on Gleemax is all mentions on controller suggests the role is based on ranged AOE, ranged debuffs, and raged battlefield control. The monk's ability to run around and drop conditions won't be special anymore since it seems that trips and grapple powers are in the PHB therefore the other classes will be able to run around and control people too (like in 3.x).

Also striker is the role mentioned with the ability to disengage combat without getting busted by defenders. If the monk runs around hitting people and isn't a striker, he's going to get AoOed then clobbered by defenders.

My money is on monks as strikers and the martial controller being a campaign specific "pet" class.

[Rutee]

But my guess is that Monks will be a Martial Striker.

I thought they'd be a Divine Striker actually. But interesting idea on Controller... I thought they'd be Divine, in any case.

[Starsinger]

I thought they'd be a Divine Striker actually. But interesting idea on Controller... I thought they'd be Divine, in any case.

I could see monks being the Divine Striker (I hope not Martial Striker.. we already have two of those) and Druid could be Divine Controller...

[Rutee]

I think Druids are from a power source that espouses Nature? But they may just be Divine.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I could see monks being the Divine Striker (I hope not Martial Striker.. we already have two of those) and Druid could be Divine Controller...Druids are Divine Tanks, no question. Multiple summonings are essentially free HP. I don't know how much they are going to resemble the 3.5 class, but striking should be secondary.

[kamikasei]

The monk's ability to run around and drop conditions won't be special anymore since it seems that trips and grapple powers are in the PHB therefore the other classes will be able to run around and control people too (like in 3.x).

Trip and grapple rules were in the 3.5 PHB, but Swordsages were still the only ones who got Setting Sun. It's entirely possible that class powers could be made more powerful or useful than the basic "how do I do X" rules.

[wodan46]

Latest info and rumors on future classes, much of which is directly from the actual companies working on the product.

# Druid mentioned in D&D's seminar's summary.

* From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Their spellcasting takes second seat. The primary ability is wildshape, which they can do a lot more often, but only shapes they have picked (like spells). They have some nature related spells to cast when in humanoid form.
* The 4E Druid will heavily emphasize shape-changing abilities, and will possess a spell list with ranged firepower and utility effects.

# Monk mentioned in a rather ambiguous way by WotC Logan.

* Will there be a monk in the PHB? "Murky."
* If so, will it be unique among the PHB classes in having an Asian flavour? "Any monks will have an Asian flavour."
# Some current base classes disappear; classes yet to be mentioned and therefore good candidates are Monk [update - now mentioned, above] and Bard. Classes that don't appear in the PHB will appear in future products.
+ From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Monks are still in the design stage, but it will be a mobile striker.

# Bard - From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Gets power from otherwordly patrons (?). Its powers focuses on illusions and confusions, so that enemies hinder themselves. They can also inspire their allies.

* Drawing their powers from “otherworldly patrons,” Bards will possess many abilities related to illusion and mental trickery. They will retain their inspirational and lore knowledge abilities.

# Barbarian - From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: The ability to rage is the centerpiece ability of this class. There are different rages. There is a mention of a “lightning panther strike” that allow movement and multiple attack. Barbarians are more feral, and bite attack was mentioned .

* The 4E Barbarian will be all about the rage, with many different rage effects to choose from. They will also be more feral—one cited barbarian ability involves him biting his opponent after his melee attack.

# Sorcerer - From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Made more distant from the wizard. They barely control their spells, but unleash enough energy every time that some remains around them. For example after a fireball, they are cloaked in fire which sears enemies nearby.

* It is stated that Sorcerers will barely be in control of their magical abilities, but whether or not this means they’ll function somewhat like wild mages is unclear. It does mention that a Sorcerer who casts a cold spell might have a protective aura of freezing cold around him afterwards for a short while.

# Psionics not to be included in core, though they'll have support.

* On psionics: "They will be a "power source" {but not in the PHB}. The PHB power sources will be "arcane", "divine" and "martial".
* From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes: Psi will appear sometime and it will be a different power source. They design arcane and divine magic so that psi can fit in. Power over mind will be the main (or a flagship) feature of psi, thus charms are going to be nerfed (the avoid too much overlap).

# Swordmage - From Wizards Presents: Races & Classes:: An arcane defender with magic shields and armor, flaming sword and some self-bluff abilities.

* Arcane Defenders who use magical protection as opposed to armor. They are designed as melee specialists with few ranged attack powers.
* Rich Baker on the Swordmage: "We're working on some swordmage rules right now for a 2008 release, and the class is really shaping up to be something special. He's an arcane defender; not really a gish, because his spells are generally melee range and tend to augment his melee attacks."
* What's all this about the Swordmage? Rich Baker talks a bit:
o It's a class we are going to design and publish someday, but it probably won't be in 2008.
o Swordmages aren't "gishes" or bladesingers. Someone over on EN World made an uncannily accurate prediction about the class, which I can confirm here: A swordmage is a warrior who uses magic to fight better.
o Swordmages use spells of armorning and protection instead of wearing heavy armor. At the most basic level, it's something along the lines of an always-on mage armor spell, renewed each morning. Since they're defenders, they need hit points and AC comparable to fighters, and swordmages get there by using persistent magic effects.I think there are other persistent wards in play too, spells that provide some energy resistance, mental defense, things of that sort.
o Swordmages have lots of room for fun, combat-focused "immediate" spells and "move" spells. For example, my character Geran makes use of a few short-range teleports and transpositions, as well as instant shield-like effects. The movement effects will work great for a defender--what better way to get the troll to stop beating on the wizard than to simply trade places with your unarmored friend?
o Swordmages have room for fun attack powers, too. For example, I have Geran make use of a short-duration, self-only strength spell, as well as another one that wreathes his sword in magical flames. There are a few others I touched on in my novel, but I don't want to give any more away 'cause I don't want to spoil things.

[Kurald Galain]

So what do we have by now...

{table]|Tank|Striker|Leader|Control
Martial|Fighter, Barbarian?|Rogue, Ranger, Monk|Warlord|
Arcane|Swordmage|Warlock, Sorcerer?|Bard?|Wizard
Divine|Paladin|Druid?|Cleric|
Psionic||||Psion?
[/table]

And of course they can always add incarnum, truenames, and shadow as power sources...

[SamTheCleric]

Maybe something like the Spirit Shaman will show up as Divine Control (that was all I could think of that could possibly fill that role)

[Kurald Galain]

Maybe something like the Spirit Shaman will show up as Divine Control (that was all I could think of that could possibly fill that role)

Perhaps.

I wonder how many of the (fifty or so) 3.0 / 3.5 classes will actually end up in 4E? It would make sense that we won't actually be seeing the 4E swordsage (because that's what the 4E fighter is), nor a 4E scout (since "the rogue has killed him and taken his stuff")... are there any archetypical classes that are as yet missing from the lineup? Perhaps the binder? Or the factothingy?

[Khanderas]

No no no, didn't you know, WotC is perfectly balancing every class to every other class right from the get go. And every splatbook released after that will harmoniously insert itself into the pantheon of 4e books without disrupting that balance in the slightest bit.

Everything is going to be perfect, people.
4th edition also does your taxes and cook for you.

[SamTheCleric]

4th edition also does your taxes and cook for you.

But it does -not- cuddle. You have to go back to GURPs if you want cuddling.

[Morty]

I seem to recall something about Druids and Barbarians getting their stuff from "Wild" power source, but it might be just my failing memory.

[Kurald Galain]

I seem to recall something about Druids and Barbarians getting their stuff from "Wild" power source, but it might be just my failing memory.

Me too, but if I recall correctly that was random speculation, rather than anything semi-official by WOTC.

Besides, based on the above table, it strikes me that there's enough room for expansion in every category except martial, so there's no particular need for all that many extra power sources. I'm sure that won't stop the splatbook mania, though :smallbiggrin: conceivably, there could be one power source for each outer plane (i.e. the elemental thingy, the void, the nature world, and the death world, I think that was all of them, no? If we assume that void = divine, that leaves elemental, nature/wild and death/necromancy for more power sources).

[Squash Monster]

Divine striker seems most likely for monk.

Which is a shame, really. Controller monks are a lot of fun. In the RPG system I designed, each class got two of cannon/tank/scout/controller/debuffer/protector. Monk was cannon/controller, which fit really well with throws and pressure point strikes (monk staples).

[hamishspence]

Divine monk sounds a bit Friar Tuck-ish, but could work. still, i think martial artist might be more likely to be popular than spin-off of the cleric.

[Skyserpent]

4th edition also does your taxes and cook for you.

But can it cut a tomato?