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lumberofdabeast
2008-04-22, 07:53 AM
I was thinking about trying out Exalted soon (the system, not the DnD alignment). The problem is, I know almost nothing about it that isn't backstory related. Does anyone more experienced than me have any advice to offer, be it in general, character creation, or whatever?

SamTheCleric
2008-04-22, 08:00 AM
All I know is that you can "Graduate your game" and get a free core book for Exalted by trading in your 3.5 PHB.

Stupid white wolf marketing.

The Rose Dragon
2008-04-22, 08:07 AM
Which isn't a bad trade, seeing how most of the PHB content is in the d20 SRD.

EvilElitest
2008-04-22, 10:09 AM
Which isn't a bad trade, seeing how most of the PHB content is in the d20 SRD.

It is the thought that counts, also that they burn the books i believe

Anyways, i've heard that Exalted is a good system if you into the whole ultra power somewhat absurd idea of playing, and that it is more balenced than D&D. can't speak from experience however
from
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Tweekinator
2008-04-22, 10:42 AM
I was thinking about trying out Exalted soon (the system, not the DnD alignment). The problem is, I know almost nothing about it that isn't backstory related. Does anyone more experienced than me have any advice to offer, be it in general, character creation, or whatever?

Buy d10s. You'll need lots of them.

I'd say go for it. It's a very fun game that allows you to build practically any character concept you can think of and have it be viable. If you have any specific questions, go ahead and ask.

Rutee
2008-04-22, 11:57 AM
Think big, surpass the impossible, and kick Logic to the curb. Those are probably the three most relevant notes to anyone looking into Exalted to see what it's like. And yes, many D10s. If you need less then 8 to do your character's speciality, whatever it is, you're doing it wrong :P

Just to put it in perspective, on "Think Big", toppling a major nation is an example of a suitable *Newbie* Solar motivation. A few that occur to me offhand would be "Restore the lost wonders of the First Age", "Establish the Rule of Law for Creation", and "Bring Peace through nonviolence to the Age of Sorrows".

Talya
2008-04-22, 12:01 PM
Okay, I finally found a place to get everything they ever published for exalted. I've been meaning to do this for some time. I'm going to have fun reading!

Oslecamo
2008-04-22, 01:42 PM
I've never played it, but I took a look at the book.

Here are some crunchy facts:

-There are several main stats. The game rewards you for focusing on just one or two and then get charms(powers) related to them.

-You get bonus to rolls for making good description of your actions.

-Combat is more complex in D&D, since instead of rounds there is a time line, and the more actions you decide to take when your moment arrives the more time you'll have to wait untill your next moment arrives.

-Complex social combat. Follows more or less the same rules as normal exalted combat, except that people are throwing provocations and sharp replies instead of glowing fists and arrows. Unlike D&D, it's not viable trying to be really good at social skills and combat at the same time.

-As your perform actions, you acumulate essence, wich then can be spent to unleash your strongest attacks, and you even get to glow like a rock concert when you're filled with essence.

-More complex than D&D. I don't buy it being more balanced. Exalted doesn't have hundreds of nerds worcking to breack it night and day and studying it's statistics to the last digit, so probably it's true brokeness is still hidden.



Just to put it in perspective, on "Think Big", toppling a major nation is an example of a suitable *Newbie* Solar motivation. A few that occur to me offhand would be "Restore the lost wonders of the First Age", "Establish the Rule of Law for Creation", and "Bring Peace through nonviolence to the Age of Sorrows".

What hapened to the time when saving the world, wiping out entire species from existence and taking the place of gods were big objectives?

Artanis
2008-04-22, 01:46 PM
Basically, what Rutee said.


To add to what others have said...

A freshly-exalted newbie Solar can easily get dice pools of more than fifteen before they start spending Essence, and half the time they can wind up with dice pools approaching ten on accident.

Also, make DAMNED CERTAIN to get a Perfect Defense as soon as you reasonably can. Nothing will ruin your day like somebody with a Grand Daiklave and an extra-action charm hitting you for twenty piercing presoak damage four times =P


Edit:


-Combat is more complex in D&D, since instead of rounds there is a time line, and the more actions you decide to take when your moment arrives the more time you'll have to wait untill your next moment arrives.

-As your perform actions, you acumulate essence, wich then can be spent to unleash your strongest attacks, and you even get to glow like a rock concert when you're filled with essence.
These two aren't quite true.


Yes, the timing of combat can be more complex than DnD, but it's nothing that a couple of pennies, a pencil, and a paper plate can't solve. However, taking more actions does not force you to wait longer before you can act again. If you take more actions, you wait however long the slowest one would make you wait, but they don't add on top of each other or anything. Multiple actions have their own built-in disadvantages, but making you wait longer is not one of them.


Also, you have Essence use backwards. Essence is like mana: you start with a pool of it and you spend it on special abilities (called Charms), gradually (or not so gradually) depleting that pool. The ONLY ways to actually increase your Essence pool during combat are stunting (the "giving descriptions giving boosts to rolls" thing) and one charm that involves you getting stabbed, beaten, and otherwise injured.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-22, 01:50 PM
Basically, what Rutee said.


To add to what others have said...

A freshly-exalted newbie Solar can easily get dice pools of more than fifteen before they start spending Essence, and half the time they can wind up with dice pools approaching ten on accident.

Also, make DAMNED CERTAIN to get a Perfect Defense as soon as you reasonably can. Nothing will ruin your day like somebody with a Grand Daiklave and an extra-action charm hitting you for twenty piercing presoak damage four times =P

If they do it four times, you'll need an extra-action charm to combo with your perfect defense, or you'll only stop one of the four.

Rutee
2008-04-22, 01:56 PM
-Complex social combat. Follows more or less the same rules as normal exalted combat, except that people are throwing provocations and sharp replies instead of glowing fists and arrows. Unlike D&D, it's not viable trying to be really good at social skills and combat at the same time.
Bull**** of the highest caliber. I have a newbie Eclipse Sheet in front of me who's good at combat and social, with some dabbling in mental abilities. Seriously, what are you babbling about? Before spending BP, you get 27 Ability Dots, which means that if you /only/ pick 9 skills to be good at, you're as good as a veteran professional in /all 9/. If you pick Melee, you only need one Ability in combat, so you have 9 to spend wherever you please. Your absolute weakest stat field, if you distribute stats so that they're about even, will be /2/; 8 points in your primary is sufficient for a 5, a 4, and a 2, or two 5s (And a 1). Compared to say, DnD, where a fighter Can never be good at social combat or trap trawling or whatnot. Exalted is built from the ground up for you to be /epic/. It's pretty easy to get /good/ at a lot of things, or decent at an even wider variety of them.


-More complex than D&D. I don't buy it being more balanced. Exalted doesn't have hundreds of nerds worcking to breack it night and day and studying it's statistics to the last digit, so probably it's true brokeness is still hidden.
No matter how powerful your uber combo of destruction is, it can /still/ be defeated by a Perfect. You can break it, sure, but it's nowhere near as breakable as DnD. Breaking DnD is a matter of packing 3 save or loses, one for each save. Further, DnD has tons, literally, of material. Exalted has relatively little for one particular Exalted type. Technically a Moonshadow or Eclipse /could/ pick up any Charm under the sun, but it's at double exp cost. In general, the only books you have to worry about are:
Your Exalted's splat (Solars, Lunars, etc)
Wonders of the Lost Age (At Character Creation, and maybe if you think of something cool)
The Black and White Treatises (If they're Sorcerors)
Scroll of the Monk (If they're Martial Artists)
As opposed to looking through like 5 supplements to build one viable meleer.


If they do it four times, you'll need an extra-action charm to combo with your perfect defense, or you'll only stop one of the four.
Depends on the extra action charm. Rain of Feathered Death is stopped by just one HGD, for instance, but Peony Blossom Attack isn't.

Artanis
2008-04-22, 01:57 PM
I was sure you could trigger Perfects as many times as you needed IF you could use the charm at all at that moment. THAT requires a combo if you want to use a charm on your turn and still be able to use a Perfect (or anything else, for that matter) before your next turn.

geez3r
2008-04-22, 02:03 PM
I've never played a real long, truly expansive game, but from what I've seen, there are a few things to keep in mind:

1) A Mass Amount of d10's. Seriously. The equivalent of a level 1 Solar can roll 30+ dice in their specialty if they try, and they don't even have to try too hard.

2) Pick a shtick and run with it, and never stop. There should be at least 1 thing about your character that they are just a paragon of. This also helps some of the creative juices flow and lets you describe your actions really well.

3) Kick practicality to the curb. Do not go with seems reasonable or what you think is easily accomplished. Exalted is all about doing something so way over the top AND looking really bad*** while doing so.

4) Think big. Think big. Think big. Think big. As an exalted character, there is no obstacle that you cannot over come, no enemy that you cannot defeat, and no task that is insurmountable. It may take time (and lots of it) but with enough determination, you can win.

Kantolin
2008-04-22, 02:24 PM
To me, Exalted is a wonderful, wonderful game system with a wonderful, wonderful setting and wonderful, wonderful concepts and miserable mechanics.

Grumble. The mechanics are confusing (especially at first), fairly easily broken, and overall kind of klutzy - fortunately my group is incredibly patient (and most of them are familiar with white wolf's d10 system), which helps move through the confusing mechanics a little more easily.

Exalted 2nd edition is a little less confusing than first to me (As I easily hopped into the 'tick' system), but isn't much better seeming on the other ends.

That said, however, Exalted is a very fun system to be in. Be sure you chat with your DM about what style said DM is going for - by default, it's somewhat over-the-top, in a rather fun fashion.

As a note, the major people who are required to stay 'in-caste' are the Dragon-Blooded - they have a 1 mote surcharge if they step out of their element. There isn't much mechanical problem to having a say Zenith caste who is fond of melee and diplomacy.

Exalted also favors extreme specialization significantly more than even hyper-optimized D&D, so you do have to watch that - either talk with everyone in a group and ensure nobody will do that (my preferred option), or start specializing in something powerful.

Oh, well. Problems aside, I really do enjoy Exalted.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 03:22 PM
As a more practical example, if you want to know what a semi-newbie solar will do, let's imagine said solar wants to be teh m0zt kickass guitar player ever. He sets out to write his first song. The result is like a mix of Freebird and Stairway to heaven dialed up to 11, with riffs better than cult of Personality, Paranoid, and Iron man combined, more epicness than Shine on You crazy Diamond and Supper's ready, and better solos than Steve Ouimette's version of The Devil Went Down to Georgia, Back In Black, and Sweet Child o' Mine and Paradise city. All of that put together. And if you DESCRIBE it like that, it's going to be even better than that.

That's what a semi newbie solar can do.

Sleet
2008-04-22, 03:27 PM
Lots of people love it. I have no doubt it's a great game, but it's one I could never get into. I play d20 or Burning Wheel when I want rules-heavy. (When I can find players brave enough to give BW a go, that is. Sigh.)

kamikasei
2008-04-22, 03:31 PM
I have a long-standing desire to get a game of Exalted going locally just so I can finally use "Princes of the Universe" as a session theme song.

How well does it carry over to PbP? Does the sheer force of awesome require physical presence, gesturing, miming actions, putting on epic voices, etc. to pull off?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 03:39 PM
I have a long-standing desire to get a game of Exalted going locally just so I can finally use "Princes of the Universe" as a session theme song.

How well does it carry over to PbP? Does the sheer force of awesome require physical presence, gesturing, miming actions, putting on epic voices, etc. to pull off?


Kamikasei, you just plain win in an Exalted way. I know bestow you with divine rank 25 and the Supreme domain.

If you give the BBEG Cult of Personality and the guy who wants to change an empire or world One vision, you're pretty much in the perfect Exalted mood.

As for PbP'ing it...well, that's why there's links to youtube music videos and pics.

For example, for the guy who suddenly cloned himself, steal this from The Doors:

"Five to one, baby,
One in five...
Nobody here,
gets out alive!"

Oslecamo
2008-04-22, 03:52 PM
stuff


Ok, I have a D&D fighter. 2 skill points per level, nothing too shabby. Handle animal and intimidate are in the skill list.

Social combat? Intimidate. You'll never be a good liar or diplomat, but you can force people to do what you want just by shouting and glaring at them. If this isn't social combat then I don't know what it is.

Traps? Get handle animal, train wild creatures, make them go before you to set up traps. Train monkeys to open chests. Pick a single suplement(arms and equipment guide) and you'll be domesticating vermins, hydras and purple worms to be your loyal pets. If everything else fails, sunder it to bits.


So the so called "weack" fighter, with an int of 10(base), is going to town with his personal army of wolfes and bears wich he captured and trained himself and he gets the evil local lord to bow to him with just the right look while being really good at bashing stuff with his favorite weapon.

Wow, you're totally right, D&D fighters are really limited. He should also be able to grow a new head and shoot lasers from his butt while making irlandish money fall from the sky.

As for perfect defenses, they also exist in D&D. They're called immunities, wich may come in the form of spells, magic items and class features. Mind blanck, teleporting item and death ward make 99% of the save or lose stuff useless. If you don't get them, then you deserve to die. The remaining 1% can be countered by other ways depeding of the case.

Number of books used? Zero. Srd provided me everything I needed for free. Infinite times cheaper than exalted.

Drascin
2008-04-22, 04:18 PM
I myself, after hearing Rutee praise it so much and hear that it is, by nature, a rather epic game (and knowing that my players tend to like epic), have managed to get my hands on a borrowed copy of 2nd edition for a few days. I still haven't been able to fully analyze it, but it looks pretty good, even if the rolling system is not exactly cup of tea (am I to assume this is the "WW method" that so many games use, btw?) - the fact that the game not only encourages, but pretty much forces you to do what I have already been doing in D&D (that is, earn bonuses by being completely badass) makes me happy.

I have also noticed I'm going to have to buy about 25 d10s for each player if I want them to actually try it :smalltongue: . Which is proving a pretty big deterrent, I might add.

Artanis
2008-04-22, 04:21 PM
Ok, I have a D&D fighter. 2 skill points per level, nothing too shabby. Handle animal and intimidate are in the skill list.

Social combat? Intimidate. You'll never be a good liar or diplomat, but you can force people to do what you want just by shouting and glaring at them. If this isn't social combat then I don't know what it is.

Traps? Get handle animal, train wild creatures, make them go before you to set up traps. Train monkeys to open chests. Pick a single suplement(arms and equipment guide) and you'll be domesticating vermins, hydras and purple worms to be your loyal pets. If everything else fails, sunder it to bits.


So the so called "weack" fighter, with an int of 10(base), is going to town with his personal army of wolfes and bears wich he captured and trained himself and he gets the evil local lord to bow to him with just the right look while being really good at bashing stuff with his favorite weapon.

Wow, you're totally right, D&D fighters are really limited. He should also be able to grow a new head and shoot lasers from his butt while making irlandish money fall from the sky.

As for perfect defenses, they also exist in D&D. They're called immunities, wich may come in the form of spells, magic items and class features. Mind blanck, teleporting item and death ward make 99% of the save or lose stuff useless. If you don't get them, then you deserve to die. The remaining 1% can be countered by other ways depeding of the case.

Number of books used? Zero. Srd provided me everything I needed for free. Infinite times cheaper than exalted.
Intimidate in DnD works once, then the person hates you. Oh yeah, it also requires Charisma, which Fighters generally don't have a lot of, if any. In Exalted, social combat not only convinces somebody to do something, but they love you for it, and keep loving you for it, and that's just for starters.


Handle Animal? Ok, go out and train a bunch of lions and tigers and bears. And oh yeah, another Charisma skill again! Gee, you're sure going to be the greatest melee dude in the world when you're pumping Charisma with an already-weak class just so you can get some monkeys. Meanwhile, a Social-Fu Exalt? Yeah, they get outright GODS to be your loyal pets.

Lessee...Winnie the Pooh or Stabbithor the God of Sticking Sharp Things into Anything Up To And Including Deities? I know which one I'LL take as a minion!


"Perfects"? You obviously have NO IDEA what a Perfect Defense is capable of. With two spells and a magic item you can stop some spells and maybe some attacks, and everything else requires further specialized counters. A Perfect Defense? ONE CHARM stops ANYTHING. Read it again: ANYTHING. Incoming insta-kill spell? A Perfect stops it. Incoming ANY OTHER SPELL? A Perfect stops it. An incoming attack? A Perfect stops it. An incoming - and this is no exaggeration - an incoming PLANET? A Perfect stops it. I'd like to see your Death Ward keep you alive when Jupiter falls on you.



And even if your Fighter CAN somehow do all this...can he do it at LEVEL ONE? Because a newbie Solar who's been Exalted for two days CAN. The weakest possible exalt can do damn well near all of this.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-22, 04:22 PM
One thing that is worth mentioning when people talk about how breakable or unbreakable Exalted is, is that balance is only meant to exist within the given splats. Solars are quite simply meant to be superior to dragonblooded at everything they choose to dedicate attention to, no exceptions at all. And as regards balance within splats then it of course depends on what you try to focus on. If you spend all your energy perfecting your calligraphy you won't be as good at slaughtering people as the Invincible Sword Princess who strives to be the best warrior in the history of the world, but your calligraphy will be able to brainwash the gods into seeing the world the way you want them to see it. As such some focuses will seem broken or useful in games that focuses on specific types of activity, one focused on a grueling trek to the elemental pole of fire to consult with Hesiesh will probably not see much use for charms that enable you to rule kingdoms, but those without powerful charms to protect them against the elements and against the wyld will not survive to reach their destination.

Also Rutee is very correct in that you can easily work with multiple specializations, at least to a degree. You cannot become the Invincible Sword Princess from before at the same time as you create the most wondrous artifacts seen for thousands of years...unless you have a whole load of experience points to sink into the effort, in which case you can do just that. And in addition to that if you decide not to specialize heavily in any one thing you can indeed be great at quite a few different things, just not to the same degree as a specialist. And unlike D&D one ability is not presented as clearly superior by the core assumptions of the system and no abilities are clearly superior so in the end branching out is not just encouraged but needed for long-term survival.

As for what is generally needed to play the game, the most important bits have been mentioned. Thinking big and hauling buckets of d10s around are the central issues. In addition to that it is probably a good idea, at least if you want to play for a long time, to move beyond just the core book. Rutee has mentioned those that will be most useful, with the possible additions of Oadenol's Codex and the different splatbooks if they are to take a major place in the game. This is not strictly needed to see if the system is for you and depending on your skills at improvising rules.

And just curious, Kantolin, what is so bad about the mechanics? Despite having played D&D for much longer than Exalted those of Exalted don't make my head hurt the same way trying to keep track of every bit of information needed in a game of D&D does. In general i think it is the system i have had the easiest time dealing with, with the possible exceptions of Dark Heresy and nWoD neither of which i haven't tried enough to reach a solid verdict on.

Talya
2008-04-22, 08:28 PM
I need to read these books, but like Eberron, the artwork is a real turnoff.

Tengu
2008-04-22, 08:40 PM
You know what is funny about the promotional campaign? Arrogance aside, Exalted (in my opinion at least, but it seems many people share it) really is a better, more interesting and mature game than DND.

lumberofdabeast
2008-04-22, 08:44 PM
I need to read these books, but like Eberron, the artwork is a real turnoff.

Would artwork of a more serious tone fit the feel of the game as well as the current?

Talya
2008-04-22, 08:48 PM
Would artwork of a more serious tone fit the feel of the game as well as the current?

I don't know, i haven't read the setting yet. However, if this is correct...


Exalted (in my opinion at least, but it seems many people share it) really is a ... more mature game than DND.

....then yes.

(But then I don't understand Tengu's statement. The game is as mature as the storyline you create for it, and the DM and players involved in it.)

Tengu
2008-04-22, 08:53 PM
(But then I don't understand Tengu's statement. The game is as mature as the storyline you create for it, and the DM and players involved in it.)

Well, I could've go on about how Exalted touches more mature topics, and doesn't have so many people pointing our that RAW this and RAW that, so they can do that (while it's clearly not in the spirit of the game), but in actuality, it was just a way of saying that I like Exalted much more than DND.

Though, frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a typical Exalted game had less HNS and more accent on the story and characters than a typical DND game.

Shades of Gray
2008-04-22, 08:59 PM
How long are they keeping the "graduate your game" campaign, imagine if they forgot to close it when 4th Ed. comes out.:smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-04-22, 09:04 PM
How well does it carry over to PbP? Does the sheer force of awesome require physical presence, gesturing, miming actions, putting on epic voices, etc. to pull off?

Well, standards are higher in PbP, I've found. In a real game, you can pull off a +3 stunt more easily, because people are more easily impressed with what you can come up with. When you're on IRC, or on PbP, you can write something, read it, then write it again, so everything will come off better. But it's not impossible to overcome or anything.


More Stuff

Perfect Defenses don't exist in DnD. At all. There is nothing that even approaches it. Anyway, a fighter can train animals, so he can trap trawl? No, he can train animals. He's /still/ going to get his ass kicked by pretty much every trap past ECL 8. Monkeys also can't handle chests (Because they're not capable of fine manipulation). But I'll be kind; Abilities don't stop having other uses in DnD; I'll say you can do three things. Fight, rear animals, and intimidate people.

If I built an Exalt who did what a FIghter in DnD can do, I would be able to do all that, and more. Period.

I can Fight like a Fighter with Melee (Or Archery/Dodge, since he has to hyper specialize, while my Exalted does not). I can train animals, /and/ survive in the wilderness, and Survival. I can intimidate people, /and/ impress them with Presence. And if I want to go all out on Intimidation, I'll take War too, since there's a mini-tree devoted to it there, and also have the ability to lead armies competently. Alright, let's be as cruel to our comparison exalt here as is humanly possible.
Melee, Resistance (Not that Fighters get bonuses to Heavy Armor, just the ability to /wear/ it), Archery, Survival, Presence, and War. At 3 dots each, I'm left with, before BP, 9 ability points. I can do 3 more things pretty darn well, *and* I covered the Fighter's bases. And more; Let's watch.

Melee is straightforward.
Resistance would be what in Dungeons and Dragons, we call a Fort Save. It also has Charms that lessen the penalties for wearing Heavy Armor (In DUngeons and Dragons, this would be Max Dex Bonus, Armor Check Penalty, and Movement Speed decreases). It also grants, through Charms, what Dungeons and Dragons would call Soak.
Archery is straightforward.
Survival is the ability to handle the wilderness, and tame animals, coincidentally. It has Charms, if you take them, that will allow you to survive in any environment, tame any animal, and take one as a special friend, like a Wizard Familiar. This Familiar, without jobbing, can be a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Presence is the ability to intimidate, and to impress, people with your force of personality. It has Charms that can warp the minds of individuals (But has less then useful application on a group, oddly.) It will also allow the Solar to act 'offensively' in Social Combat (Though you need Integrity to defend yourself.. but then, you've got 9 more dots)
War is the ability to lead, inspire, and train Armies. It has Charms that will give you perfect awareness of the battlefield conditions of the Army, a detailed status report on each unit in your army, Charms that will enhance performance of your army, and Charms that you can use to disperse enemy armies.

I seperated Charms somewhat, because you don't have to get them. If you're not picking up War Charms, it has no purpose of Intimidation, so you can drop that, and pick up something else. And this is a newbie, built with no book diving. If you'd like to say you don't like the mechanics, by all means, do so. Do not claim any nonsense that an Exalted must be more focused then a dungeons and dragons character, or claim that DnD makes it easy for anyone to branch out nearly that much.


I need to read these books, but like Eberron, the artwork is a real turnoff.
Yeah, White Wolf in general tends to hire really bad artists. I don't know why.

Eldmor
2008-04-22, 09:05 PM
From what I've been told, one person's round can take up to 5 minutes of rolling and deciding. That already turns me off from it, and then having to go and double my color-coded d10 collection. The grandiose nature of it does seem appealing to my "inner awesomesauce" if I'm in the right mood.
Seems perfect for PbP or an IM campaign but a little m'eh on the table.

wadledo
2008-04-22, 09:05 PM
Ah, House Cynis, will your wonders never cease.:smallbiggrin:
............
.........
......
...Yea, I haven't helped.:smallredface:

Tengu
2008-04-22, 09:10 PM
Yeah, White Wolf in general tends to hire really bad artists. I don't know why.

The money saved that way gets spent on good marketing people!


From what I've been told, one person's round can take up to 5 minutes of rolling and deciding. That already turns me off from it, and then having to go and double my color-coded d10 collection. The grandiose nature of it does seem appealing to my "inner awesomesauce" if I'm in the right mood.
Seems perfect for PbP or an IM campaign but a little m'eh on the table.

Actually, not true. The combat is faster than DND. It can take that much only if someone is really long-winded and creative and likes to describe his actions in great detail (also hoping to get more stunt die that way).

Rutee
2008-04-22, 09:13 PM
From what I've been told, one person's round can take up to 5 minutes of rolling and deciding. That already turns me off from it, and then having to go and double my color-coded d10 collection. The grandiose nature of it does seem appealing to my "inner awesomesauce" if I'm in the right mood.
Seems perfect for PbP or an IM campaign but a little m'eh on the table.

In a very, very close encounter, where you're simply uninspired to act, yes, that can be true. But when inspired, it takes exactly as long as it does to describe your action. In real life games, this is not a large barrier; You won't be held to the same standards of description that you are in text-based games (Or so I'm told; No WW players around here, so I play entirely online), so it doesn't take that long to do.

Fruan
2008-04-22, 09:23 PM
From what I've been told, one person's round can take up to 5 minutes of rolling and deciding.

You've been told wrong, I'm afraid.


I'm sure turns could go that long, but the same can be said of D&D - Ever had a wizard spend 5 minutes going over his spell list looking for what would be the best thing to do? It'll happen in any system.


The only way I can think whoever told you this came to such an impression is due to the fact that every character in Exalted would be described as a "full caster" in D&D terms - Get a lot of people new to the system together and it might take them a session to figure out what they can do.

Of course, as we all know how the interaction between Full Casters and non casters goes in D&D I hope you can see how this is actually an upside.

TehJhu
2008-04-22, 09:32 PM
So like...

Is someone gonna run an Exalted game on these boards or what?

Tengu
2008-04-22, 09:47 PM
I know there are at least three running currently, one of which am I a part of.

TehJhu
2008-04-22, 09:49 PM
I know there are at least three running currently, one of which am I a part of.

How about...

Is someone gonna run an Exalted game I can play in? :smallsmile:

EvilElitest
2008-04-22, 09:50 PM
Well, I could've go on about how Exalted touches more mature topics, and doesn't have so many people pointing our that RAW this and RAW that, so they can do that (while it's clearly not in the spirit of the game), but in actuality, it was just a way of saying that I like Exalted much more than DND.

Though, frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a typical Exalted game had less HNS and more accent on the story and characters than a typical DND game.

Meh, i tend to view super ultra epic absurdities as rather immature, but from what i hear it does at least cover more mature topics than D&D does. My option sadly isn't based upon personal experience, through i will say WW's marketing people seem to have screwed up priorities
from
EE

Rutee
2008-04-22, 10:04 PM
How about...

Is someone gonna run an Exalted game I can play in? :smallsmile:

Run and play in the same game, if you think people won't get squicky about it, and if you trust yourself. The hardest part about it is keeping up with your character and the setting's actions simultaneously, which isn't an issue in PbP.

Tengu
2008-04-22, 10:14 PM
Meh, i tend to view super ultra epic absurdities as rather immature, but from what i hear it does at least cover more mature topics than D&D does. My option sadly isn't based upon personal experience, through i will say WW's marketing people seem to have screwed up priorities
from
EE

Except that Exalted is not Dragonball-style epic. It's more like how Avatar would look like if it was made into an RPG and targeted towards ages 15+.

EvilElitest
2008-04-22, 10:16 PM
Except that Exalted is not Dragonball-style epic. It's more like how Avatar would look like if it was made into an RPG and targeted towards ages 15+.

I admit this is hearsay, but exalted fans have confidently told me that an exalted character can easily take a nuke and take on an unlimited number of mooks
from
EE

Tengu
2008-04-22, 10:19 PM
Experienced ones, yes. The high power level doesn't make the game more childish, though - just like it didn't in the case of myths, were single strikes of heroes could change the landscape.

Kantolin
2008-04-22, 10:30 PM
Eh, most of the mature games I've been in have been either D&D or freeform. Exalted can deal with a bunch of mature themes, but unless you're talking about naked or nearly-naked women which seem prominent in the books, it doesn't particularly do them any better or worse than D&D.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-22, 10:37 PM
Among the core themes of Exalted is the nature of free will, the consequences of power and how to deal with insanity. These seem pretty mature to me. In addition to that i consider the cultures of Creation to hold one point that adds maturity where it is rarely found in fantasy, gender roles. It might be a pet peeve of mine, but the lack of coverage of gender roles is something that drives me absolutely nuts in most fantasy literature and games and often makes it hard for me to relate to characters and sometimes even fall into blatant stereotypes.

This does not mean Exalted is in any inherent sense more mature than other games, i just want to show some aspects of how it is more mature than the stories of solars killing armies while having afternoon tea doesn't cover all of the game.

EvilElitest
2008-04-22, 10:38 PM
Experienced ones, yes. The high power level doesn't make the game more childish, though - just like it didn't in the case of myths, were single strikes of heroes could change the landscape.

I think that is a deal with the players not the system. They system touches more mature elements yes, but absurd super high power to the point that unlimited number of people can't even touch them seems silly. If it was like Avatar i'd be interested, that seems more like Kratos god of war
from
EE

EvilElitest
2008-04-22, 10:42 PM
Among the core themes of Exalted is the nature of free will, the consequences of power and how to deal with insanity. These seem pretty mature to me. In addition to that i consider the cultures of Creation to hold one point that adds maturity where it is rarely found in fantasy, gender roles. It might be a pet peeve of mine, but the lack of coverage of gender roles is something that drives me absolutely nuts in most fantasy literature and games and often makes it hard for me to relate to characters and sometimes even fall into blatant stereotypes.

This does not mean Exalted is in any inherent sense more mature than other games, i just want to show some aspects of how it is more mature than the stories of solars killing armies while having afternoon tea doesn't cover all of the game.

thats actually a good point
from
EE

graymachine
2008-04-22, 11:02 PM
If the power level bothers you, simply switch to one of the other exalted types. The power levels are, roughly, from stongest to weakest:

Solars, Abyssals, Alchemicals

Sidereals, Lunars

Dragon-blooded, God-blooded.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-22, 11:12 PM
Dragonblooded are significantly stronger than godblooded and abyssals are weaker than solars at most things. Still it is true that power levels varies defending on what you play and the game gets downright grueling and brutal if you choose to play heroic mortals. Even the smallest wound can potentially kill in that case.

graymachine
2008-04-22, 11:15 PM
Dragonblooded are significantly stronger than godblooded and abyssals are weaker than solars at most things. Still it is true that power levels varies defending on what you play and the game gets downright grueling and brutal if you choose to play heroic mortals. Even the smallest wound can potentially kill in that case.

I was stating what they are suppose to be, not the disparities resulting from many cooks in the kitchen. Also, I was leaning closer to first edition rather than the new one; I can't stand second edition. Although, I suppose that means I should simply say Sidereals for the win.

Artanis
2008-04-22, 11:21 PM
Solars, Abyssals

Sidereals, Lunars

Alchemicals

Dragon-blooded

God-blooded.
More like this. Alchemicals are supposed to be on the low end of Celestial-level, stronger than a DB but not as strong as a Lunar or Siddy.


...in theory, at any rate. How things came out in practice was a whole 'nother story.

Rutee
2008-04-22, 11:24 PM
Lunars were the bottom of the totem pole of 1e, really. Everyone beat their faces in single combat, except some Dragonblooded. In practice.

2e has mercifully buffed them up to be near Solars. I'd probably rate them /higher/ then Abyssals, really.

graymachine
2008-04-22, 11:27 PM
...in theory, at any rate. How it came out in practice may very well be a whole 'nother story.

Prismatic Arrangment of Creation + Grandmother Spider Style = Smacking everyone in Creation, twice. :smallbiggrin:

Terraoblivion
2008-04-22, 11:40 PM
Abyssals were always supposed to be weaker than solars. They were supposed to be more narrowly focused and lack the solars great talent for creating and leading, reducing the power they could achieve quite a bit. Like-wise godblooded, like gods, were always supposed to be weaker than dragonblooded. And the socialize, craft, lore and occult charm trees means that solars as a splat always comes out on top when it comes to power. They might not necessarily be better at killing than an optimized lunar, sidereal or abyssal but they can reshape the world in ways far beyond what other celestial exalts can do.

Eldmor
2008-04-23, 01:49 AM
Interesting. Now that my biggest assumed turn-off of the book has been proven wrong, I'll grab it tomorrow and see what it's all about. This might be the perfect compromise with my summer gaming group as they are very beer & pretzels and I want to DM/GM/ST something based more on roleplay.

Aquillion
2008-04-23, 02:17 AM
I don't know about 'mature', but in my experience most "extreme-powered" systems in general tend to encourage focusing much more on characterization and plot than on loot tables and gold, simply because there isn't anything else to focus on. It's pointless to obsess about gold, treasure, power and so forth when your characters can blow up mountains by snapping their fingers. Likewise, railroad plots tend to not work well on characters like that, so if you want to have fun you really need players who can play their characters well and come up with their own goals. Sure, you can do that in D&D, too, but games like Exalted are designed solely with that in mind. D&D definitely isn't, and most of the character-customization it offers comes down to 'combine these generic fantasy roles in new ways', 'approach this generic fantasy role from a (very slightly) new direction', or 'add a minor bonus to this-or-that while remaining basically the same archtype'.

That power level is also the real reason people say Exalted is hard to break: I mean, what would you gain out of breaking it? When your characters start with the ability to blow up the entire planet as a baseline, what, are you going to make a carefully-optimized character who can blow up the planet a little bit more?

Cubey
2008-04-23, 02:33 AM
That power level is also the real reason people say Exalted is hard to break: I mean, what would you gain out of breaking it? When your characters start with the ability to blow up the entire planet as a baseline, what, are you going to make a carefully-optimized character who can blow up the planet a little bit more?

A major exaggeration, but good point regardless.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 02:36 AM
That power level is also the real reason people say Exalted is hard to break: I mean, what would you gain out of breaking it? When your characters start with the ability to blow up the entire planet as a baseline, what, are you going to make a carefully-optimized character who can blow up the planet a little bit more?

Do it more... efficiently? Honestly, that's the closest I've seen to legitimately breaking Exalted. A particular Swordsman combining Death Parrying Stroke (From I think Violet Bier of Sorrows?) and Essence Gathering Temper and a few other Charms to gain essence from being hit, without losing any actual health levels. Which I believe they fixed, though I never bothered looking at New VBoS.

Well that and Principle of Motion. But that's pretty much got a huge neon sign saying THIS IS HOW WE LET SPIRITS DUKE IT OUT WITH SOLARS WITHOUT DYING! DO NOT GIVE TO THE ECLIPSE!

Kantolin
2008-04-23, 02:43 AM
The goal of munchkinery isn't necessarily to be powerful, it's to be more powerful than everyone else.

If your dragon-blooded finds a creative/unfair combination of events which means you can kill any and all Solars at character creation, then that's likely to cause any combat-related events in the game to be somewhat dull for everyone else.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 02:52 AM
Except htat Dragonblooded is pretty much guaranteed to be pasted in every fight against a Solar of anything remotely resembling even exp, and those two things are "Essence" and "Perfects". Now that Perfects have been added to the other Celestials, the best your Munchkin can realistically get is "Wipe the floor with the party", and I still don't consider that terribly likely. Further, to get that level of munchkinery, they /will/ have to specialize. It's not going to do you a lot of good if you hit things better then everyone else when the campaign has a definite tilt towards say.. nation building (Maybe they're turning a Satrap into their personal playpen, f'rex)

Reel On, Love
2008-04-23, 03:40 AM
Do it more... efficiently? Honestly, that's the closest I've seen to legitimately breaking Exalted. A particular Swordsman combining Death Parrying Stroke (From I think Violet Bier of Sorrows?) and Essence Gathering Temper and a few other Charms to gain essence from being hit, without losing any actual health levels. Which I believe they fixed, though I never bothered looking at New VBoS.

Well that and Principle of Motion. But that's pretty much got a huge neon sign saying THIS IS HOW WE LET SPIRITS DUKE IT OUT WITH SOLARS WITHOUT DYING! DO NOT GIVE TO THE ECLIPSE!

Essence-Gathering Temper combos with the Twilight Caste ability (pick up Invulnerable Skin of Bronze and Snake Style for Essence Fangs and Scales, Snake Form, etc, and you've got hellacious soak, the Caste ability takes the ping, and you gain essence.
I didn't know Sidereals could do that too.

Fruan
2008-04-23, 04:51 AM
Essence-Gathering Temper combos with the Twilight Caste ability (pick up Invulnerable Skin of Bronze and Snake Style for Essence Fangs and Scales, Snake Form, etc, and you've got hellacious soak, the Caste ability takes the ping, and you gain essence.


Well, the anima power is only going to take the ping against foes with equal or lesser essence. So it's not like you can go kill the First and Forsaken Lion with this set up. But it's a great way to make mook fights completely risk free, rather than just 99% risk free.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-23, 05:06 AM
Well, the anima power is only going to take the ping against foes with equal or lesser essence. So it's not like you can go kill the First and Forsaken Lion with this set up. But it's a great way to make mook fights completely risk free, rather than just 99% risk free.

Screw the Falafel, Twilight caste power + Essence-Gathering Temper is for all the regular stuff. Honestly, how many over-Essence enemies does a circle fight? I'd imagine most are at the same level.
The anima power is also going to take most of the ping even against higher-level foes, and feed you Essence all the while.

Fruan
2008-04-23, 05:27 AM
Screw the Falafel, Twilight caste power + Essence-Gathering Temper is for all the regular stuff. Honestly, how many over-Essence enemies does a circle fight? I'd imagine most are at the same level.
The anima power is also going to take most of the ping even against higher-level foes, and feed you Essence all the while.

Well, it depends on the story, I guess. I know that pitting a circle against a single foe with higher essence than them is less bookkeeping than pitting them against a group of similar essence, so I must confess to favoring it.


Also, if you're using essence gathering temper every round against a powerful foe, you'll want it in a combo with a perfect so they can't just oneshot you with the ultra mega death combo they invariably have. Which means that gaining essence every round doesn't matter a jot - You'll run out of willpower sometime. The willpower economy is a wonderful balancing tool :)

Rutee
2008-04-23, 11:38 AM
Essence-Gathering Temper combos with the Twilight Caste ability (pick up Invulnerable Skin of Bronze and Snake Style for Essence Fangs and Scales, Snake Form, etc, and you've got hellacious soak, the Caste ability takes the ping, and you gain essence.
I didn't know Sidereals could do that too.

They can't. They don't have EGT. Death Parrying Stroke from VBoS used to be able to take the place of Snake Style and ISoB though, and VBoS is technically only Supernatural, not Sidereal, so it can be learned by non Siddies.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 11:51 AM
Also, if you're using essence gathering temper every round against a powerful foe, you'll want it in a combo with a perfect so they can't just oneshot you with the ultra mega death combo they invariably have. Which means that gaining essence every round doesn't matter a jot - You'll run out of willpower sometime. The willpower economy is a wonderful balancing tool :)
Perfects don't require Willpower in 2nd Edition.


Edit: Well, not Solar (and thus presumably Abyssal) perfects. I have no idea about the Lunar and Siddy ones.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 11:57 AM
Combos require WP though. And I'm pretty sure there's a way around that with a Hearthstone of some sort. Though I believe they took out that Hearthstone at this point anyway. You're pretty much looking at Twilights being the only ones, because Twilights are broken :P

I know one of my friends fixed the Caste Ability to not be so disgusting, but I can't seem to find where..

Talya
2008-04-23, 12:04 PM
This is a nice setting, from what I've read so far, but here is why "originality" is not always a good thing. This is really slow going...without reading every last word in the books, I'm gonna be lost. That said, I think I like this setting.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 12:04 PM
Ooh, that is true, hadn't thought about that.


Edit: *grumble* got Ninja'd. This is in response to Rutee

Rutee
2008-04-23, 12:34 PM
http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Discussions/TwilightAnima2E

There we go. He acknowledges that htis new one is still overpowered a bit, but not nearly as badly as before.

Brickwall
2008-04-23, 01:08 PM
My advice: bring a good dictionary/thesaurus (or just the internet, really). The sourcebooks sometimes fall to using really, really obscure vocabulary. I don't really know why.

Talya
2008-04-23, 03:24 PM
Now, Brickwall told me this in the Homebrew forums once:


Eeeenteresting.

My lady, do you play Exalted? Because if you do, the folks over the The Freedom Stone Forums would love to have you. There are areas for your...particular creative energy to be put to good use.

I can't link in good conscience, but a Google search will get you there straight-away.

What is it about Exalted, now that I'm reading this, that would encourage my "particularly creative energy?"

Rutee
2008-04-23, 03:38 PM
I genuinely do not know. Needing to do less mechanics jobbing to accomplish a particular task well, perhaps? Excellencies' broadness is often discounted in discussions of Exalted for some reason, even though with one simple Charm you automatically become very, very capable of any task needed by that Ability. Perhaps because we so often forget that not every task is opposed for or built for an Exalted.

That particular comment, about the Freedom Stone Forums, however... they are a very interesting, very dirty-minded group of Exalted players, so it makes sense if you look at the /community/ more then the game. They're also tons of fun, so if how you built Nara is how you often enjoy a character, Brickwall is right.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-23, 03:43 PM
Solars, and possibly lunars, are the only ones who can truly spam perfect defenses. Sidereal perfect defenses are expensive and cost willpower and abyssal perfect defenses costs willpower outside the underworld.

As for Violet Bier of Sorrows then Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals state that teaching it to a non-sidereal carries a capital punishment, just like teaching any SMA style does. It is heavily copyrighted to sidereals and is not meant to ever be learned by any other characters.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-23, 03:47 PM
Well, it depends on the story, I guess. I know that pitting a circle against a single foe with higher essence than them is less bookkeeping than pitting them against a group of similar essence, so I must confess to favoring it.


Also, if you're using essence gathering temper every round against a powerful foe, you'll want it in a combo with a perfect so they can't just oneshot you with the ultra mega death combo they invariably have. Which means that gaining essence every round doesn't matter a jot - You'll run out of willpower sometime. The willpower economy is a wonderful balancing tool :)
Fair enough, but EGT+Anima still helps a *lot*, especially on top of a huge soak.

As for Willpower--that's what stunts are for. Odds are they're spending more Willpower than you are, if they've got ultra mega death combos.

Also, there's a whole lot of XP from starting before Ultra Mega Death Combos really kick in.


Now, Brickwall told me this in the Homebrew forums once:



What is it about Exalted, now that I'm reading this, that would encourage my "particularly creative energy?"

Well, your "glorious shining Vow of Nudity" character would fit right in and be pretty easy to make.
Beyond that, Exalted deals with mature topics a lot better and in a less silly way than D&D does.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 03:50 PM
Well, your "glorious shining Vow of Nudity" character would fit right in and be pretty easy to make.
Beyond that, Exalted deals with mature topics a lot better and in a less silly way than D&D does.

*Scratches head* I'll buy that Exalted handles some themes better, but aside from sex finding more mention (PArticularly in some Charms like Irresistable Succubus Style), how does Exalted handle sexual topics in any better a fashion? I legitimately do not know the answer to that. I just know that The Freedom Stone has similar tastes, they just happen to work in Exalted (And are awesome at it. I've taken some of their stuff for my games XD)


As for Violet Bier of Sorrows then Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals state that teaching it to a non-sidereal carries a capital punishment, just like teaching any SMA style does. It is heavily copyrighted to sidereals and is not meant to ever be learned by any other characters.
Yeah, but that's /new/. In 1e, VBoS was learnable by other Exalted types with a Sidereal mentor, no capitol punishment, I'm pretty sure.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-23, 03:53 PM
And because of the expense of using Ultra Mega Death Combos you don't start the battle using them, unless you have a reasonable reason to expect that your opponent cannot do anything to prevent it. A solar sneak attacking a dragonblooded for example, though that would just be a vicious murder when you think about it.

Violet Bier of Sorrows can still be learned by others, just the sidereals really don't look favorably on it. And it seems like capitol punishment was an exaggeration, it is merely a severity 4 offense against the rules of the Bureau of Destiny. The exact consequence of that can vary, but it is the equivalent of murdering another sidereal within the borders of Yu-Shan and can lead to punishment such as getting a slave collar clamped around your next or a fine of one or more dots of permanent essence. So i exaggerated, but it is certainly not something non-sidereals are supposed to learn.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-23, 03:55 PM
*Scratches head* I'll buy that Exalted handles some themes better, but aside from sex finding more mention (PArticularly in some Charms like Irresistable Succubus Style), how does Exalted handle sexual topics in any better a fashion? I legitimately do not know the answer to that. I just know that The Freedom Stone has similar tastes, they just happen to work in Exalted (And are awesome at it. I've taken some of their stuff for my games XD)

It's integrated into the setting, and not in a kiddie "ha ha, gnomes like it badger-style" way. It's mentioned but not made a big deal of (well, there that one awful, AWFUL cover), except when it should be--the lusts and passions of world-shattering god-kings make for mighty powerful hubrises and motivators. (You thought the Trojan War was bad? Just you wait until that Appearance-7 fae makes two Solars duke it out.)

Rutee
2008-04-23, 03:58 PM
Oh, I get it. I thought you meant the system itself handled it better for a minute, and I was plain confused, rather then it being presented better and used as a sort of story element.

To be fair though, an App. 7 Fae would probably have to stand in the corner huffing while an App 8 or 9 Solar (Or freaking overhyped Lover. Grumble. She was cooler when they made less of a deal about the sex.) did it :P

GammaPaladin
2008-04-23, 03:58 PM
And because of the expense of using Ultra Mega Death Combos you don't start the battle using them, unless you have a reasonable reason to expect that your opponent cannot do anything to prevent it. A solar sneak attacking a dragonblooded for example, though that would just be a vicious murder when you think about it.
Baby seal clubbing, to be honest.

Kantolin
2008-04-23, 04:03 PM
It's integrated into the setting, and not in a kiddie "ha ha, gnomes like it badger-style" way.

Interestingly, I find that irritating more than helpful.

I've run/played in highly mature-themed games before, and it can be fun to cycle through moral depravity, prostitution, what have you.

But it's a little irritating that Exalted rather hits you in the face with it, and in my opinion it does do it in a somewhat kiddy way. It feels more like every so often, something in the books has to either offhand say, "Oh, and they sleep with animals repeatedly", or go into mild detail about it. Which could be fine if I felt like caring, but frequently my group/friends and I don't want to be bothered analyzing just how many people of what genders and species this solar slept with, and would much rather get back to our political intrigue.

Especially with one of my friends who is the victim of rape, and therefore does not enjoy playing fantasy games which are centered around the rape theme very often. Retconning a lot of things from exalted are irksome.

Edit: Whoop, I missed that I was responded to.


Except htat Dragonblooded is pretty much guaranteed to be pasted in every fight against a Solar of anything remotely resembling even exp, and those two things are "Essence" and "Perfects".

I believe you missed my point. My point is that striving to cause imbalances of this sort is where you can be a munchkin despite the default power scale of the game - I was referring to the suggestion that you can't be a munchkin in Exalted.

Heck, if someone (Let's say a Twilight) spends a very modest amount of points on combat, while someone else (Let's say a Dawn) spends almost all of their points on combat, that can - and in a lot of cases does - cause combat to end up being either rightfully boring or go-sit-in-the-corner, especially if the net result is that the Twilight can't effectively do anything in any category.

Simultaneously, if the afor-mentioned Twilight has found this nifty combination of unfairness which makes him strictly better in every way than the Dawn, while simultaneously having his high points in mental or social... that also causes problems.

I'm not saying Exalted is explicitly made with problems like this, just that it can happen - the hyperspecialization mentality of the points system, if anything, makes it happen a little more frequently and unintentionally than I'd like.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-23, 04:09 PM
Oh, I get it. I thought you meant the system itself handled it better for a minute, and I was plain confused, rather then it being presented better and used as a sort of story element.
Heh, no.
...I guess what the system would lend itself to is ridiculously overcomplicated sex, as everyone involved stunts for bonus dice. :P

Rutee
2008-04-23, 04:14 PM
I'm not saying Exalted is explicitly made with problems like this, just that it can happen - the hyperspecialization mentality of the points system, if anything, makes it happen a little more frequently and unintentionally than I'd like.

This is the part that makes me go buh? I always feel Points-based systems go the other way, away from Specialization, especially if, as it does in WW games, costs for abilities increase as you go higher up the scale. Well, hm, actually, since *Charm* cost doesn't go up... arguable. Nonetheless, when you're permitted to actually deviate from a role without massive jobbing (Or indeed, if you absolutely must leave that role in character creation..) I don't see how you can say that helps promote hyperspecialization. Particularly since, at the least, the book also encourages generalization (Whether this is suboptimal is irrelevant; Fact of the matter is, not everyone looks at optimalness).


Heh, no.
...I guess what the system would lend itself to is ridiculously overcomplicated sex, as everyone involved stunts for bonus dice. :P
This is where I repeat the meme from the IRC network I hang out in; "Stunt, Nellens. Stunt for your life!"

See, this is why I'm not inclined to think Exalted handles it any better then DnD. Other themes, yes. This one, no.

Kantolin
2008-04-23, 04:28 PM
The problem, insofar as I can tell, is twofold.

First, specialization results in you being very powerful, whether or not you'd like to. I'm not that familiar with other white wolf games (I've played a few, but not enough to really get into them), but in the Vampire game that goes on in my area, there was a conversation lately about a powerful vampire not having any 5s in anything.

In exalted, to compare someone who has a 3 in two skills to someone who has a 5 and a specialty in one, in theory the person with a 3 can function in more areas, while the person with 5 is skilled in one but fails in the other.

In practice, however, it is reasonable for a lot of people to simply exist in areas which support their high skills. Then, when you attempt to use your 3s, you then tend to interact with people who again have higher than that skills - as they focused.

Or in short, it seems having 3s in a couple skills means you can't really do anything unless you get lucky and/or they get unlucky. Those extra dice really do make a difference, especially when you mix in charms and start doubling your pool - and thus widening the difference further. This becomes even more fierce when you look at a lot of charm trees - many of them have astonishingly strong charms as you move down them.

This is, of course, including the logic that you're just playing psuedo-normally - thinking things like, 'Well, I want to be really good at stabbing things, and I don't particularly care if my character can't ride a horse very well but I may put a point there since he may have growing up', and not carefully min-maxing yourself.

I mean, D&D's not exactly more balanced, but it does result in the wizard raising his ability to smack things whether he wants to or not, rather than spending absolutely everything he has to boost his spellcasting to keep up with the other person (or slightly higher 'level' person) who is doing the same thing.

Aquillion
2008-04-23, 04:36 PM
I'm not saying Exalted is explicitly made with problems like this, just that it can happen - the hyperspecialization mentality of the points system, if anything, makes it happen a little more frequently and unintentionally than I'd like.Yeah, but compare it to D&D.

In Exalted, if you combine two very different abilities in one character, that character will be a little bit worse at each (though still very, very powerful and quite competitive, as well as being useful in more situations.) You can do it smoothly and effectively right out of the box with no experience whatsoever, and your character will be fine.

In D&D, to even start combining things like magic and melee or divine/arcane magic together requires detailed splatbooks and optimization, and even then you can easily end up gimped. If you take the "stupid" method of combining abilities -- the one that appears to be encouraged by the system at first glance -- and make, say, fighter 7 / wizard 7, you'll have a character that is virtually unplayable, and near-totally ineffective against supposedly fair challenges.

D&D is not really a system made to allow freedom in character development. Yes, they try to do it with feats and multiclassing and skills and all that, but at the end of the day 90% of it comes down to "what flavor of generic wizard do you want to be?" or the equivalent; and frequently, if you want to try something new and specific, you need a special PRC or feat printed especially for that.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 04:45 PM
Well.. that's /not/ playing pseudo normally, in my experience. I've never met anyone who had trouble spending all their ability dots. I've met people who had trouble getting enough of them. That's playing Exalted as if it was Dungeons and Dragons. IT's far more normal to design yourself to be more of a generalist then DnD allows. Why? Because sitting around sucks. Even the Dawn's Dawn in our group, as a newbie, has a Social Defense Charm and good Presence, so he can enter Social Combat without being an utter hindrance. You're looking at designing Combat as a group activity, and everything else as a solo one. That's the problem here, I'd say.


I mean, D&D's not exactly more balanced, but it does result in the wizard raising his ability to smack things whether he wants to or not, rather than spending absolutely everything he has to boost his spellcasting to keep up with the other person (or slightly higher 'level' person) who is doing the same thing.
...That's hypocrisy of the highest level, especially given the comparison. It's easier to become entry-level capable in other fields in Exalted then it is in DnD.

Talya
2008-04-23, 04:48 PM
I'm not saying Exalted is explicitly made with problems like this, just that it can happen - the hyperspecialization mentality of the points system, if anything, makes it happen a little more frequently and unintentionally than I'd like.

Without even having gotten into the gritty details of the rules, I can already think of a few houserules to combat that.

Kantolin
2008-04-23, 04:49 PM
Er. A better comparison for D&D, I'd say, would be playing a fighter-type. The optimization route is to pick one trick and superspecialize at it. However, the game works just fine if the fighter grabs a few archery feats and a few martial feats - not optimized, but most people aren't thinking about hyperoptimization. It synchs.

Either way, that is indeed a feature of the class system - you have to spend a little effort to be able to do several wildly different things. Outside of fighter-mages, however, you can actually multiclass fairly effectively -a gain, depending on optimization.

By that same note, however, it's a lot easier to get something resembling balance with D&D's system - the system is in no way perfect, but unless there are wild imbalances in optimization in a party, you're not too likely to have even the monk feel like he's doing nothing. Compared to the poor guy who ends up splitting his points around so he can do everything in a kind of halfway-manner.

In Exalted you can pick any two things and do them well... sort of. You can talk to people well, or you can improve your social defense, or you can improve your willpower.

Troubles come when you don't (remotely) have enough points to 'max' out something. Then you become someone who can talk to people, who dabbles in social defense - and dabbling in social defense isn't enough in most cases.

I compare Exalted to D&D's fairly similar skill point system at higher levels: If you haven't maxed sense motive, then you can sense motive people who aren't particularly trying to bluff you anyway, and you're not terribly useful at the royal ball because everyone there will always/usually succeed at bluffing you. It's not useless that you can sense motive, but it doesn't really help you that much.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 05:02 PM
I don't get it, Kantolin. You seem to be operating under this weird as hell myth I simply don't get, where every character and challenge is not only built, but enforced by the system, to only be beatable by a hyperspecialized character. No, that's DnD. DnD is the game where traps are designed to be handled by one character optimized at it, while the rest of the party kicks back and gets sodas, where one guy bluffs the hell out of the town guards while everyone else kicks back and gets sodas, and where when fighting starts, the trap and bluff guys are /supposed/ (By RAI, seemingly, not RAW) to mostly cower while the fighter types take care of it. Adn that's just RAI, not, if you'd like to discuss balance, the Wizard casting Detect Magic to find the (Inevitably magical, because you can only be really good in craftsmanship with magic) trap, Teleport, Dimension Door or whatnot to get past it, Dominate to negate the need for a fast talk, and Forcecage or Stinking Cloud or whatever to handle the fight.

In Exalted, you /don't/ toss opponents that solely require hyperspecialized characters (Except Stealth.. I just can't figure out what to do with Exalted Stealth any more then DnD Stealth). You'll make that social encounter a group activity just as much as you do that fight. Heck, in Mass Combat (Social or Violent), you'll be thankful as hell if people are generalists. As long as they have a few dots in War/Socialize and in the relevant ability, you'll pretty much guaranteed be better then most feasible standins (Like Mortals) anyway. This is encouraged from the book, to boot!

Aquillion
2008-04-23, 05:44 PM
Er. A better comparison for D&D, I'd say, would be playing a fighter-type. The optimization route is to pick one trick and superspecialize at it. However, the game works just fine if the fighter grabs a few archery feats and a few martial feats - not optimized, but most people aren't thinking about hyperoptimization. It synchs.Yeah, sure. Now say your fighter wants to have the innate ability to teleport, or fly, or read minds, or stop time. Equivilent things along those lines would be simple in a point-buy system like Exalted, just a matter of grabbing the right abilities. Your fighter abilities lose out a bit, but not very much (thanks to pyramid-cost type systems, you'll only be a hair behind.) In D&D? You're looking at extensive entry into a second class or a detailed PRC which will likely require that you become a caster and will severely impact your melee abilities if you're not good at optimization, or taking a specific race from the start that will limit and define all sorts of unwanted things about your character.

Likewise, there is no "maxxed" in a point-buy system. That's the point. Maxxing abilities and skills and caster levels is a D&D thing, because D&D is (regardless of the other things it can support) heavily focused on making it easy to run dungeon crawls. D&D has traps that say, basically, "you must be this good at search + disable device to enter this dungeon", monsters with SR that essentially say "you must have CL XYZ to affect this monster", and so on.

In a point-buy system Exalted, it's different. If you're good at swordfighting, then you're good at swordfighting; if you're awesome at swordfighting, then you're awesome at swordfighting. The game is not designed to throw an endless succession of opponents who require more and more swordfighting at you, so if you start out decent at swordfighting you will always be decent at swordfighting. The only case where comparisons like you're talking about matter is if you're playing alongside someone else who focuses on the exact same abilities, and that's something that should generally be avoided in most games anyway.

Indon
2008-04-23, 06:40 PM
A few things about the system -

Balance does not exist in Exalted, and I doubt it was never intended to. Even in-book, for instance, Martial Arts is better than other combat styles (it's just that kind of universe). Sometimes WAY better.

But Exalted is not a game that should be broken - if you have a storyteller who doesn't know the system well enough to keep it from being broken, then chances are he doesn't understand the system enough to make a good game anyway. The system is intended for the storyteller to have an active hand in the game, unlike the 'hands-off' approach of modern D&D (Thus, it'd be kind of pointless for people to try to break Exalted - sure, you can break it, but the expectation is that the GM will just fix it).

Also, people have already noted Exalted doesn't have to be crazy-epic. You can play, for instance, 'badass normals' who strive to survive and thrive in a world downright infested with anime characters - and at the very limits of mortality lies the ability to stand as peers to them.

A quick breakdown of approximate D&D-Exalted power level distinctions (1'st edition, I don't play 2'nd):

Exalted Type - 3'rd ed D&D Level range (absolute max, i.e. "epic" for that character type)
Heroic Mortal: 1-9 (12)
God-Blooded: 3-10 (14)
Dragon King: 4-12 (15)
Terrestrial (Dragon-Blood) Exalt: 5-15 (25)
Celestial (Lunar, Sidereal) Exalt: 8-20 (Off-chart)
Solar and Abyssal Exalts: 8-25 (Off-chart, higher than Celestial max)

This list is incomplete, and lacks the Fae, Alchemical Exalted, Spirits and Elementals, and other stuff.


(But then I don't understand Tengu's statement. The game is as mature as the storyline you create for it, and the DM and players involved in it.)

Well, the way I see it is, because of what I said above about there needing to be a more active hand in the game (definitely by the storyteller, but to a degree by the players as well), the game requires more maturity to really pull off to its' fullest potential.

But if you can do that, it's liquid awesome.

Though, I was recently very amused when the party peacefully encountered a Deathknight of the Lover. They got aggressive, there was a duel that broke out into a fight, and I would have laughed my ass off if only the Abyssal's blade had drained any of their temporary Willpower to zero.


Except that Exalted is not Dragonball-style epic.

Or is it. But seriously, it can be, but the system is more versatile than just that.

Kantolin
2008-04-23, 06:49 PM
Equivilent things along those lines would be simple in a point-buy system like Exalted, just a matter of grabbing the right abilities.

Um. You're arguing something different from what I am - you're stating that point-based systems offer you more flexibility to make what is essentially a completely customized 'class' for yourself, with exactly the abilities you'd like. This is factual, and in fact more or less the point of them.


You seem to be operating under this weird as hell myth I simply don't get, where every character and challenge is not only built, but enforced by the system, to only be beatable by a hyperspecialized character.

The problem comes when anyone, anywhere, is highly skilled at something, and you have to interact with that person. Odds are that person is going to attempt to remain within his area of expertise.

Sure, you can take on mooks - and by 'mook', I don't necessarily mean a poor physical combatant. You can have a social mook - someone there in social combat can fulfill pretty much the same role. Or perhaps there's a mortal crafter who specializes in boats against the solar crafter who specializes in boats - that's, more or less, a crafting mook (Provided you're the solar). Mass combat, whether social or violent, is (usually) full of them. Relatively unimportant people.

The trouble comes when you begin interacting with nonmooks. When you go to a court situation, odds are the people there have done a bit more than dabble in socialize. If you enter a competition with a dragon-blooded who is good at building ships, dabbling doesn't cut it. If you enter a competition which is, in fact, a dragon-blooded ship building competition, odds are that most dabbling dragon-blooded won't even enter - sure, the dragon-blooded has 3 dots and a charm, but he knows that this isn't his specialty, and that he'll likely be making a fool of himself before more talented shipbuilders... and beating up mortals.

So someone who dabbles in craft can get by if they're not interacting with anyone important - they're pretty much guaranteed to lose if they are forced to interact with anyone who does consider it in some way important.

Now, I do suppose /that/ can be just a feature of the groups I've been in - the highlights of our games are when we're interacting with people and things of relevance. Sure, we interact with a lot of people that (for example) my (1ed) Ancient Dragon King can interact with his socialize (Which is, amusingly, 4) in a meaningful way - but the moment he has to interact with someone who intends to be in a social setting, he's kind of out of luck. Or my slightly unhinged (2ed) dragon-blooded with his 3 points and an excellency in performance

(At the same time, I did /give/ him that 4 socialize and the 3 performance+Excellency - it made sense for the character - it's just generally not useful unless I'm performing against... well, mooks. Our group is prone to doing things like that with frequency, and we usually go out of our way to tone things down if we run into something overpowering. We also frequently take flaws without gaining any mechanical bonus for doing so, so perhaps we're just abnormal.)

It is, I suppose, better than nothing - and it does help people who suddenly find themselves in a battle instead of in a crafting scenario, but then you have the character who was going to show up without much (reasonable) intent of success.

I do suppose this would go away if everyone in a group just ensures that they all have a bunch of 3s everywhere and maybe one or two fours, or if the focus was on people /wildly/ below our capabilities (By which I mean mortals v Solars, not Dragon-blooded v Solars) but I don't see how Exalted's system particularly discourages you from specializing madly.

And I apologize for bringing up the D&D example - it seemed to be a familiar compairson, but people seem to be harping in on it, so nevermind utilizing D&D as a comparison. The comment was about specialization and munchkinery in Exalted.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 06:50 PM
I'm going to say this. If you're looking at Heroic Mortals, and you don't explicitly want the difficulty of surviving next to Abyssal destruction, Dragonblooded conquest, Lunar Social Engineering, and Solar Herodom, DnD is better for you. There's really no point to Heroic Mortals except that you're worse at everything, and it's generally mechanically less interesting, because Mortals don't exactly get access to any real abilities.


The problem comes when anyone, anywhere, is highly skilled at something, and you have to interact with that person. Odds are that person is going to attempt to remain within his area of expertise.
No! No the odds are /not/ that that person is going to attempt to remain within their area of expertise! That's where your assumption is screwed up! I'm looking at a long running, 200 exp character that a friend of mine has in a long running game, and he laid out exactly how she's grown. As a Night's Night, she has grown the most in stealth and combat, yes... but she's still grown a fair bit in social-ness and knowledge abilities (Especially Lore, even with a couple Charms to back it up). That's where your assumption doesn't seem to meet real world gaming!

Kantolin
2008-04-23, 06:53 PM
Peh, we've run games where we were heroic mortals who were attempting, albeit secretly, dealing with Dragon-blooded tyranny under the yoke of the scarlet empress.

Of course, you did cover that potentiality with 'and you don't explicitly want', and I do agree with you that that's anything but a normal game.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-23, 06:55 PM
Meh, it's like playing Batman when his plans are stolen, he doesn't have the power armor, and he's facing off against Superman while he has borrowed Captain America's shield and Thor's Mjolnir.

The sweet triumph is SO much more better than winning with the cheesed up Supes, but it's hard as hell and you have a snowball's chance in hell.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 06:57 PM
Well, I can see an appeal to it, but if you want "Heroic Mortals", DnD will be more mechanically interesting, and Fudge will be simpler. There's no reason to play Exalted as Heroic Mortals if you don't specifically want to face off with the Exalted and Gods.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-23, 07:09 PM
Nah, D&D is like playing the whole range from Solars to heroic mortals, only you aren't actively discouraged from mixing the types in a single group.

The thrill of playing heroic mortals is like playing a super sized you. You're still frailly human, a paragon of humanity who is still brutally outmatched. It's the exploits to survive which will be stuff of legends, and it's much more interesting to be the underdog whose tale will be told than the "I Win" guy.

graymachine
2008-04-23, 07:16 PM
Out of curiousity, has anyone heard of a setting cooked up called A Thousand Bloody Sunsets? The basic premise of the setting is that the Usurpation failed and the Solars put the Dragon-Blooded and Sidereals in their place, hard. What follows in it is Creation being set up as a system controlled by the mind-boggling powerful Solars. Advanced technology exists universally (based on Essence) so people live in a world comparable to modern times. The base plot that the writers came up with was that one of the players is a newly Exalted Solar and the rest of the party smuggle into the Resistance movement before the political system can sweep him/her up in brainwashing training. Very dystopic (sp?) game that I like a great deal. What's the thought on this setting, since it is a far take from the traditional themes of Exalted?

Rutee
2008-04-23, 07:17 PM
I don't think DnD really qualifies as the whole stretch. you're only ever in one spot at a given time, and you never really mix them, without getting into balance issues, because the group is 'supposed' to be the same level or near it. What I mean is, lower level DnD will handle heroic mortals, as a stand alone concept, better then Exalted.

Kantolin
2008-04-23, 07:18 PM
No! No the odds are /not/ that that person is going to attempt to remain within their area of expertise! That's where your assumption is screwed up!

Wait a moment - you misunderstood me.

I was talking about NPCs more than anything else - your comment seemed to question why you'd run into people that you have to be specialize to interact with significantly (Sans luck). I mean if some dragon-blooded would like to be a scholar or a librarian, odds are they're going to put themselves in situations where they can utilize the fact that they're a scholar or a librarian. So therefore, when you run into them, odds are you're dealing with a librarian who's rather talented at being a librarian, in an area with other people who are also talented at being librarians. Sure, there might be a supreme-martial-artist who is in no way a talented librarian there, but that would be an exception, not the rule.

That's what I meant by someone attempting to remain in their area of expertise. A person who can't swim might start practicing their swimming, and you might thus interact with one who is practicing swimming in a private location. You're not likely to run into someone who is a dabbling swimmer at a swim meet.

(Amusingly, this is actually harder to do for combat - unless you run around exclusively seeking battles, odds are you're spending time doing something else a lot).

So I'm not saying an Eclipse caste shouldn't nod at Investigation - my group does this all the time, heck, I gave two examples of myself doing it personally. It's just that if that Eclipse wants to mean something to people who are actually good at let's say socialize, he's got to really put effort into socialize - dabbling won't cut it. And simultaneously, the Zenith caste who would also like to socialize has to put effort into it if he wants to play in that pool - as once again, dabbling won't cut it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-23, 07:20 PM
Well, it would be semi similar to Warhammer, unless you're playing with Solars. If you are, then it's WH40k, with all the delicious OTTness and black humour.

Also, Exalted is actually pretty dark, you just have to take a deep fluff dive without the OTTness obscuring your sights. It's like absolutely ignoring the Evangelion's mechs to focus on the inter and intrapersonal relationships.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 07:27 PM
Wait a moment - you misunderstood me.

I was talking about NPCs more than anything else - your comment seemed to question why you'd run into people that you have to be specialize to interact with significantly (Sans luck). I mean if some dragon-blooded would like to be a scholar or a librarian, odds are they're going to put themselves in situations where they can utilize the fact that they're a scholar or a librarian. So therefore, when you run into them, odds are you're dealing with a librarian who's rather talented at being a librarian, in an area with other people who are also talented at being librarians. Sure, there might be a supreme-martial-artist who is in no way a talented librarian there, but that would be an exception, not the rule.
Dragonblooded Society being what it is though, you won't meet a Librarian who is only good at being a Librarian. Why would they be? Even their think tanks are pools of political intrigue. Dragonblooded risk assassination or social castigation if they don't keep a good general grasp of everything.



So I'm not saying an Eclipse caste shouldn't nod at Investigation - my group does this all the time, heck, I gave two examples of myself doing it personally. It's just that if that Eclipse wants to mean something to people who are actually good at let's say socialize, he's got to really put effort into socialize - dabbling won't cut it. And simultaneously, the Zenith caste who would also like to socialize has to put effort into it if he wants to play in that pool - as once again, dabbling won't cut it.

And what's "Dabbling"? Dabbling will do perfectly fine if it means "Take a couple of Charms", provided you're not trying to duke it out with specialists alone. You can, however, /help/ the specialist in your group. It's all about group encounters.

Oslecamo
2008-04-23, 07:29 PM
I'm going to say this. If you're looking at Heroic Mortals, and you don't explicitly want the difficulty of surviving next to Abyssal destruction, Dragonblooded conquest, Lunar Social Engineering, and Solar Herodom, DnD is better for you. There's really no point to Heroic Mortals except that you're worse at everything, and it's generally mechanically less interesting, because Mortals don't exactly get access to any real abilities.


Wait, so heroic mortals are weaker than dragon bloodeds that are weaker than solars and nobody gets benefits/penalties to make up for that?

Anyway, if no one noticed it, D&D is also point based besides being class based.

Except that it's not called points. It's called money. All D&D characters are expected to have roughly the same gold, and this gold can be spent to buy pretty much anything you want. There is almost nothing that can't be gotten by gold. No, not even spellcasting is out of reach, even if you're playing a commoner. A candle of invocation will make all your wishes come true really damn cheaply if the casters try to start a power race.

If you say you don't want to be a walking christmas tree, then ask for magic tatoos. Tatoos are badass, in the rules and can't really be stolen.

Now I don't know much about items in Exalted, but from what I heard they're much less important(aka powerfull) than in D&D. Heck, the best way of combat seems to be unarmed martial combat.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-23, 07:30 PM
Money is not a point system, or, by design intent, shouldn't be. LEVEL is the important thing here.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 07:35 PM
Wait, so heroic mortals are weaker than dragon bloodeds that are weaker than solars and nobody gets benefits/penalties to make up for that?
Not really, no. Why would there be? Do you expect lower levels to get benefits over higher levels?

With DB, and the other Exalted, there actually are minor bonuses to them, over the Solars, in seriousness. I say "Minor" because they look important, but the end result is nowhere near as good. More background dots, more starting ability dots, /better/ backgrounds (Artifact 2 buys more for a Dragonblooded then it does for a Solar). But.. it just never really matches up with Solars.


Anyway, if no one noticed it, D&D is also point based besides being class based.
OH HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO
Amusing. I love the serious look on your face, it /really/ sells that joke!

Indon
2008-04-23, 09:58 PM
I'm going to say this. If you're looking at Heroic Mortals, and you don't explicitly want the difficulty of surviving next to Abyssal destruction, Dragonblooded conquest, Lunar Social Engineering, and Solar Herodom, DnD is better for you. There's really no point to Heroic Mortals except that you're worse at everything, and it's generally mechanically less interesting, because Mortals don't exactly get access to any real abilities.

In 1'st edition, mortals can't get charms (exception below), but they do have a number of abilities they can use, such as Thaumaturgy (Sorcery Lite), Alchemy (not that bad, actually), and other tricks.

High-power mortals can raise as high as 3 Essence, learn Terrestrial-level Martial Arts, and even Terrestrial Circle Sorcery.

(See: Exalted Players' Guide)

But, yeah, that's pretty feeble on the Exalted scale, but heroic mortals do get some tricks up their sleeves.


What's the thought on this setting, since it is a far take from the traditional themes of Exalted?

Charmpunk!

Talya
2008-04-23, 10:07 PM
The crunch part of this book is very poorly written. Everything related to each other is spread out over many, many pages, with no tables or lists under the descriptions. Blah.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 11:43 PM
Wait, so heroic mortals are weaker than dragon bloodeds that are weaker than solars and nobody gets benefits/penalties to make up for that?
That's about the size of it, yeah.

Fruan
2008-04-24, 12:59 AM
Wait, so heroic mortals are weaker than dragon bloodeds that are weaker than solars and nobody gets benefits/penalties to make up for that?



Yep! Just like Gestalt characters are better than normal characters are better than characters who only have NPC classes.

Rutee
2008-04-24, 02:00 AM
In 1'st edition, mortals can't get charms (exception below), but they do have a number of abilities they can use, such as Thaumaturgy (Sorcery Lite), Alchemy (not that bad, actually), and other tricks.

High-power mortals can raise as high as 3 Essence, learn Terrestrial-level Martial Arts, and even Terrestrial Circle Sorcery.

(See: Exalted Players' Guide)

But, yeah, that's pretty feeble on the Exalted scale, but heroic mortals do get some tricks up their sleeves.
I know they can do stuff. It's just.. you know; Heroic Mortals have fewer options then lower level DnD characters, by default. With Occult and MA, they can do.. some things, but it just seems pointless if you don't specfically want to try to trick/interact people who are far more capable then you.

Fruan
2008-04-24, 02:16 AM
Leaving aside my rather flippant reference to Gestalt characters above, the comparison that I think works best is with NPC classes - Heroic mortals are, basicly, level 1 commoners. (Non heroic mortals are even worse, I guess - They're like commoners with no stat above 10). You can occasionally get a Heroic mortal that gets an essence pool and some magic via martial arts or occult, and that's roughly like having a level in warrior or adept, but it's still not much.


The point being that they're not even *supposed* to be on a par with any character with PC classes. And while you can in theory play with them, and even do great things with them, that's always going to be the exception, and never the rule.

Rutee
2008-04-24, 02:23 AM
My argument isn't to compare Heroic Mortals to Exalted though. I'm totally cool with Exalted stomping the everliving hell out of Mortals. My point is thus;

Heroic Mortals and lower level DnD characters are roughly similar in terms of intended ability. Which is fine. The problem here, with Heroic Mortals, is that they're less mechanically interesting. They can, flavorwise, do most of the same things. But there's very little mechanically there to entice you to play Exalted instead. For the same end result, you can do more to tweak the DnD character then the Exalted one. Further, if what you're after is simplicity, you could simply use Fudge, (http://www.fudgerpg.com/files/pdf/fudge_1995.pdf) which can easily emulate heroic mortals; Transplanting mechanical complexity ot them would, arguably, be harder then adding Stunts to DnD, as well. Therefore, there's very little purpose to playing Exalted as Heroic Mortals unless you very much want to see those Heroic Mortals interact with Exalted, for whatever reason.

Overall, I don't think this should be terribly surprising. The system that was built for higher powered characters, that uses great heroes as its basis.. fails to emulate ordinary, or semi-ordinary people.

Fruan
2008-04-24, 02:50 AM
I guess I'm agreeing with you, but just from a different angle - part of what makes NPC classes suck so much is their lack of class features, which is pretty much analogous to the lack of charms heroic mortals suffer - and so really we're saying the same thing.

Oslecamo
2008-04-24, 07:49 AM
With DB, and the other Exalted, there actually are minor bonuses to them, over the Solars, in seriousness. I say "Minor" because they look important, but the end result is nowhere near as good. More background dots, more starting ability dots, /better/ backgrounds (Artifact 2 buys more for a Dragonblooded then it does for a Solar). But.. it just never really matches up with Solars.



So the game is suposed to be played with an all solar party? I got the impression that solars, dragonblooded, the guys of the moon were as the D&D races. Some minor abilities but then what matters is what you buildon top of them. Seems I was wrong.

Glad you liked(and noticed) the joke.I wasafraid for amoment I was sounding too serious.

Rutee
2008-04-24, 08:16 AM
Well, Sidereals and Lunars have specialities that Solars can't match up with per se. You can team the Celestials together (Though Siddies don't play too well with others anyway, fluff-wise) and not have a terribly uneven game. The game I had to leave due to work schedule has a Lunar happily playing alongside a Solar, and she's doing pretty well. Dragonblooded, however, are well and beneath them, and Abyssals.. fluff wise, they play horribly with others, and this is mechanically enforced. About the only things they do involve killing and mind raping mortals into submission. Which they do with amazing efficiency and ability, but they don't team well. Dragonblooded can work with each other very, very, very well, and there's no mechanical enforcement of them not playing with the others. They're just genuinely weaker.

What the Splats do is more then provide a baseline. They provide the basis for the Charms you select, which while it doesn't control what your advancement is (That is, what skills you advance in), but it does control how that advancement works. A seduction Charm from Solar Presence, a seduction Charm from Lunar Charisma, a seduction Charm from Siddie Presence, and a seduction Charm from DB PResence will all work in at least subtly different ways. Or major ones, really, depending on which two you're looking at. The splats do have some specialities of their own, and Solars generally have a hard time properly beating them at it.

WalkingTarget
2008-04-24, 08:50 AM
So the game is suposed to be played with an all solar party? I got the impression that solars, dragonblooded, the guys of the moon were as the D&D races. Some minor abilities but then what matters is what you buildon top of them. Seems I was wrong.

Disclaimer: I've only played 1st Edition, so this might not be up to code on 2nd.

The main book has the Solars as the protagonist type and the other types of Exalts aren't fleshed out enough to play unless you get the splat books, so the default group is a Circle of Solars. It's possible to run a game with multiple types, but it adds considerable complexity as each type of Exalt has significant differences in style.

The power levels between them can come into play as well. Mechanically, the Solars (and Abyssals) adjust dice pool sizes up to whatever Attribute+Ability total they have, the Lunars up to the applicable Attribute, the Terrestrials up to their Ability, and the Sidereals up to their permanent Essence.

This means that players need to know the rules for their own Exalt type and the GM needs to be able to keep track of whatever Exalted NPCs are involved. However, the potentially large differences in dice pool sizes can easily mean some characters are simply more effective than others. The expected (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value) success rate of die rolls is 0.5, or 1 success for every 2 dice (for Exalts and other Essence users at least, for mortals I think it's 0.4), so larger pools work out to more successes quickly.

As Rutee says (and within my own experience), Celestials can play together, but Terrestrials get left behind quickly in a purely mechanical sense in a mixed group but that doesn't rule out playing this way for RP reasons. Fluff-wise, there's significant reasons for groups to be all of one type of Exalt, but if it fits your story there are ways around that. IOW, there's nothing preventing playing however you like, but the setting simply doesn't ensure total balance between the types of Exalts on an individual basis.

Oslecamo
2008-04-24, 09:41 AM
So I can claim D&D is as balanced as Exalted with only solars if everybody plays the same class right?

Ilanin
2008-04-24, 11:15 AM
My favourite ever roleplaying character was a Terrestrial in an otherwise all-AnathemaCelestial party.

The game was set in the Blessed Isle, so Adarisa had the following advantages which balanced the power disparity out:

-Didn't have to stay hidden and could use peripheral essence freely
-Had access to Imperial power structures
-Understood the nature of Imperial power and the motivations of the Houses *way* better than everybody else
-Was given free Knowledge 2 Experience 2 as additional backgrounds

This put her on a comparable power level throughout the game. This was, however, first edition. One of the biggest and less-reported changes between first and second edition was the down-powering of the Dragon-Blooded dodge charm Safety Amongst Enemies, which previously could be pretty reliably used as a perfect against even undodgable attacks provided there was somebody else around to hide behind.

I've played a deathknight in a mostly-Solar party in second edition. That worked just fine; well, OK, there were slight issues in dealing with Resonance 8 after the Unconquered Sun turned up personally in response to a request from our Zenith, but other than that...

Artanis
2008-04-24, 11:18 AM
So the game is suposed to be played with an all solar party? I got the impression that solars, dragonblooded, the guys of the moon were as the D&D races. Some minor abilities but then what matters is what you buildon top of them. Seems I was wrong.
Not quite that, but close. The different Exalts are more akin to different levels of different-powered classes, and as such the game is supposed to be played with a party that's all at the same exalt type, i.e. an all-Solar group, an all-DB group, etc. Now, a mixed party is perfectly doable, but usually requires jumping through a few more hoops to keep things in balance.

Usually, this means that the best way to do a mixed party is if the players using a "lesser" Exalt type have a different niche than the bigger boys. For instance, a Dragonblooded can't keep up with a Solar in combat, but if the DB is a Social-Fu master, he won't have to.



...mind you, this is in theory. It can work out differently in practice.



Edit: Missed this bit

So I can claim D&D is as balanced as Exalted with only solars if everybody plays the same class right?
More like if everybody plays the same level.

WalkingTarget
2008-04-24, 11:32 AM
So I can claim D&D is as balanced as Exalted with only solars if everybody plays the same class right?

I'm having trouble thinking of anything wrong with that statement even if it doesn't sound quite right to me.

It does sound like a rather boring D&D group to me, though.

Ooo, I thought of what parallels D&D races: the different Castes/Aspects/etc. of the Exalts.

Solars are all mega-awesome or whatever, but they get different small adjustments to their basic setup to tweak them in different directions (Dawn automatically get discounts on fighting-related stuff, Twilight on scholarly/craftsmanship activities, etc). Nothing prevents you from playing a Twilight-Caste archer or a Dawn-Caste Occultist, just as there's nothing preventing you from being a Dwarf Sorcerer or Elf Barbarian.

I would say that it's easier for Exalted characters to "multi-class" however. If your uber-stealthy, knife-wielding Night-Caste assassin wants to pick up some Sorcery it doesn't take any more XP to pick up that skill 200 XP into character progression than it would have at 50. A level 10 rogue who wants a level of wizard has to gain a lot more XP to be able to pull that off than one who decides to pick up that wizard level at level 5 (edit - i.e. in my personal playing experience, after a certain point, it took more sessions in D&D to gain new levels as progress occurred, but I got roughly the same XP in an average session of Exalted no matter how far along the character was and there's no subsequent increase in XP needed to buy new abilities or charms).

Oh, and going back to something said about items being less powerful, it's a matter of scope. There was (in 1st ed at least) a Hearthstone, the Gem of Incomparable Wellness, that caused you to regenerate one health level a round, even after death. You could be chopped into tiny bits, but if you still had possession of this you'd get better eventually. This was a Manse ***** Background I think (but I'd be surprised if any GM actually allowed a PC to have it, one of my GMs gave it to a very important NPC to our dismay). Swords that look like somebody named Zack or Cloud should be using them aren't uncommon and often have powers beyond just grievous bodily harm. Martial Arts is amazing in the game, but it isn't necessarily unarmed (many forms have favored weapons). Armor is bypassed easily by some types of attacks, but Exalted-level armor works wonders for fighting armies of mooks single-handed.

@v - ah, yes. Thanks for reminding me of that (it's been a while). Martial Arts is indeed the great leveler in the setting. It can do all sorts of weird stuff that's not necessarily tied to combat if you try hard enough.

GammaPaladin
2008-04-24, 12:46 PM
As Rutee says (and within my own experience), Celestials can play together, but Terrestrials get left behind quickly in a purely mechanical sense in a mixed group
In 1E at least, there was ONE way for a Dragon Blooded to stay competitive with Solars in physical combat, and that was if he was a very well built Immaculate Monk. A few duels over on the WW boards fairly well proved that at equivalent experience levels, an Immaculate could basically fight a Solar to a standstill... But keep in mind that this is a Terrestrial essentially using Celestial charms and powers, since the Immaculate martial arts style is a Celestial style.

I don't know if that still holds true for 2E, but in 1E it was basically a deadlock and a matter of seeing who could carefully run the other out of Essence first and win, with the outcome being fairly questionable, even with the Solar's advantage in Essence.

TehJhu
2008-04-24, 01:00 PM
Playing heroic mortals in Exalted is like playing Call of Cthulhu.

You feel awesome for winning, but there ain't gonna be a happy ending.

DeathQuaker
2008-04-24, 01:19 PM
*drops 2 pennies into the jar*

I playtested 1st edition and played in a very long campaign in the same setting (long enough I played 2 different characters, the first an Eclipse Caste and the second a Night Caste).

Overall, it's a fun game and if you want to play a demigod in an RPG, this is the way to do it. I really, really overall enjoy the world design, which is familiar and yet twisted around to have its own feeling. (Also, as a long time old WoD player, I liked the aspects of Wraith: the Oblivion they worked into their Shadowlands).

My main gripes were twofold (which go all the way back to playtesting):
1. There are too many frickin' dice to roll. The Storyteller system I like a lot, and I've been playing other Storyteller/Storytelling games for YEARS, but when you're rolling 10-20 dice on average it gets a little silly.

2. Monsters are suped up largely through adding Soak. And this would lead to more ridiculous die-rolls and never-ending combats, because you'd roll your 20 die pool attack and still only have 1 die left over to roll damage after calculating soak. So when you were powerful enough to kill a mere mortal by sneezing, a spirit which was a comparable challenge to you could still barely be scratched by you. (Note: corollary--unless you built a Dawn Caste specializing in dealing damage, in which case only the Dawn Caste would be accomplishing anything in combat, and everyone else would be admiring the Eclipse's pretty hair. On the other hand, I think I might have won a battle by forcing the enemy to admire my Eclipse's pretty hair, so there might be a tradeoff after all). Anyway, I think maybe 2nd edition fixed this a little, though.

I never picked up 2nd Edition though, for the following reasons:

1. Fluff-wise, not enough to attract me that I didn't have in the original book.

2. Many of complaints I and others had--again some of which went all the way back to playtesting--were never resolved with the new edition. Many charms which needed tweaks weren't fixed (many of which boiled down to "too many dice.")

3. At the same time, they fixed what wasn't broken by adding stuff like the somewhat convoluted looking initiative system.

4. Ego moment: My name isn't in the 2nd edition book. :smallbiggrin:

5. Non ego moment: My GM is blind, and the new books contain a watermark in the text that prevent him from scanning the books into a readable format for him. He actually wrote to them, offering to show them proof of purchase if he could get a text-version friendly to people who rely on screen-readers to read, and they flat-out refused, and rudely so. (Meanwhile, I'm sure book pirates long ago figured out how to get past the watermarks, so the only people punished by this "copyright protection" measure are the visually impaired.) Which kind of made me not want to buy the books either.

So I lost interest.... still a really neat world, though, and probably if someone offered to run a 1st ed or hybrid/houseruled game I'd dive right in.

Artanis
2008-04-24, 01:33 PM
One thing about the initiative system though, after playing 2e and looking through 1e, the thought of using 1e's initiative system is horrifying to me. I guess it all boils down to what you're used to :smalltongue:

DeathQuaker
2008-04-24, 02:13 PM
One thing about the initiative system though, after playing 2e and looking through 1e, the thought of using 1e's initiative system is horrifying to me. I guess it all boils down to what you're used to :smalltongue:

It's been awhile since I played it, but it's actually much like D&D's, IIRC (for all as different as the systems are). Roll a die, add a modifier (which was Dex+Wits+Weapon Speed, IIRC), highest number goes first. Pretty simple. Though I guess if it's not what you expect, it could be "horrifying."

Artanis
2008-04-24, 02:22 PM
Hrm, to be more specific:

It's not the way that initiative is determined that I don't like, it's the way you have to do your turn due to that initiative system. You can attack and stuff like expected, but you can't just defend, you have to guess who's going to attack, and if you guess wrong, you can screw yourself over for no gain. If you split your dice pool to dodge incoming attacks from guys who never attack you, that weakens your own attack for no gain to yourself. Likewise, if you don't split your dice pool in order to keep your attack strong, you're liable to get whacked by six square feet of metal.

It's the sort of system that I would have a really, really hard time getting my mind around the nuances of, and even if/when I did, I would still be terrible at it. 2e takes care of that problem while keeping your defensive capability nearly identical.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-24, 02:28 PM
The tick system looks convoluted, that much is true DeathQuaker. However, i have found that in use it is the simplest and most fluid initiative system i have tried in any game. Doesn't make it any less intimidating to look at, though.

And both Talya's gripes with the mechanics parts and DeathQuaker's GM's experience are sadly indicative of some of the problems with White Wolf. They can write amazing settings and often good systems, but their customer service sucks. Editing tends to be a mess in their books and politeness to customers is not exactly what the company is known for.

Their skill with settings more than makes up for it for me, but i can easily see why it will keep people away. Finding the exact place some rule is mentioned is often quite counterintuitive and the table of content in every single White Wolf book is a joke, while the indexes tend to be hard to use. It is just an annoyance you have to deal with if you like their games.

As for balance between splats then neither the fluff nor the mechanics are set up for it nor are they set up for the splats to even work that much together in an unequal fashion. Instead they are all set up to distrust or outright hate each other, except for the solars who are set up to not have any generic views but also to be oblivious enough about what is truly going on in the world to be excellent pawns for the others. However, immaculate martial artists and different kinds of celestial exalts can work together unless they keep stepping into the specialties of each other and if you have an interesting story for it. In many cases they can even supplement each other, though in the case of immaculates only if are either the primary warriors or have good social skills in addition to their fighting skills, but that requires a great deal of XP as immaculate martial arts is a great sink of those. Lunars are just better at being sneaky than anybody else, sidereals have access to better espionage than anybody else and nobody can slaughter mooks or deal with the undead and the underworld like an abyssal. And solars can do everything well, just not as well as a celestial exalt from a splat specialized in exactly that thing, they will never be as adaptable as a lunar of an equal amount of training.

No matter what the splats are made to be internally balanced, but not balanced between them. As such all solars start with the same amount of charms, attributes, abilities, backgrounds and bonus points. But they also start with much less than a sidereal starts with, because the fluff of sidereals means that they have to be thoroughly and comprehensively educated by supernaturally skilled teachers.

Rutee
2008-04-24, 03:09 PM
So I can claim D&D is as balanced as Exalted with only solars if everybody plays the same class right?

I already went over that. You can't claim Exalted is imba. due to the various Exalts being totally different any more then I can call DnD Imba. because level 20s are better then level 17s, who are better then level 15s, who curb stomp level 5s.

DnD is Imba. because things that are /supposed/ to be equal (AKA A level 10 wizard and a level 10 Fighter) Are /leagues/ apart in actual ability, not because level 20s are better then level 17s. With the exception of the Twilight Caste Ability being overpowered, Solars are pretty well balanced against each other; It's hard not to be, when any one ability a Twilight or Zenith gets, a Night or Dawn can get for the same amount of exp.

Further, you can't get one ability and call it game forever. In DnD, it's "Play spellcaster, win", because Magic gets to do everything at no real cost. Occult (Which is the ability tied to Sorcery), can kind of do everything.. but it comes with rather massive costs (I mean, the entry requisite to Sorcery requires a vast sacrifice, and that's just Terrestrial Level. If you want Celestial or Solar sorcery, the sacrifices just get bigger. An adequate Solar Circle Sorcery sacrifice is an entire kingdom of innocents, for instance..). Further, that versatility does indeed come at an effectiveness penalty (I could cast Peacock Shadow Eyes to deliver one suggestion to a character.. but it won't be as well done as a Presence Charm), and an efficiency penalty (PSE is 15 motes of essence. Presence is far cheaper). But on the other hand, that didn't require me to pick up Presence dots, and perhaps lead in Charms in the Presence tree. Martial Arts is similar, but as a sort of "Body Sorcery".

Oslecamo
2008-04-24, 06:46 PM
Well, if D&D magic demanded you to sacrifice entire kingdoms of inocents to cast each spell, I highly doubt 99% of the players would really bother doing so.

Do exalted sorcerors mind that they have to sacrifice entire kingdoms to fuel their spells? Because for what I saw in D&D if the cost for an ability isn't measured in gold or exp then the player will gladly pay it. Commit acts of unspeakable evil? Sure. Lick the feets of my god every morning? Right on it. Be a tree hugger? Anything for what I want.

And don't get me started in the diplomacy rules. Screw spells, you only need to know how to talck well and the world is yours, whitout right to save or spell resistance or any kind of defense whatsoever.

But wait, knowledge skills is even better. Because some drunck designer decided there is a god that if you make a knowledge religion DC30 to call him apears before you and grants you one wish for free.

D&D magic isn't imba. D&D skills are imba.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-24, 07:00 PM
The sacrifice is not to cast the spells, but to learn how to cast spells of that level at all. Also the sacrifices are a major part of the theme and flavor of sorcery in Exalted and if you just handwave them away you are doing something wrong. It is not just a throw-away comment, it is an integral part of how sorcery is presented and of what makes it different from ordinary charms. In fact the rules directly state that the sacrifice must affect you, so you cannot use any means to replace an arm sacrificed to learn sorcery. If you did you could no longer use sorcery until you removed the replacement.

Also i have never actually played with anybody, D&D or otherwise, who would do anything for power. And if i did then unless it was made plenty clear that the character was obsessed with power above all else, i am not sure i would keep playing with such a person. Nothing breaks the game more than when people stop looking at the obvious consequences of their actions and just works the numbers. At least it is that way for me.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-24, 07:14 PM
Also i have never actually played with anybody, D&D or otherwise, who would do anything for power. And if i did then unless it was made plenty clear that the character was obsessed with power above all else, i am not sure i would keep playing with such a person. Nothing breaks the game more than when people stop looking at the obvious consequences of their actions and just works the numbers. At least it is that way for me.

You don't have to be obsessed with power or to do out-of-character things to make a very powerful character.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-24, 07:38 PM
I know that, Reel. What i meant was how Oslecamo said that players would let their characters do everything willingly if it can increase power, simply does not apply. Among his examples were doing evil things, humiliating things and sheer gross stuff. I was saying that unless the character was meant to be willing to do everything for power or the situation is really desperate, then i consider it bad playing and often against character to do those for power. It is not that you have to be obsessed with power to become powerful, it is a question of whether people only care about numerical penalties or not i was talking about.

Aquillion
2008-04-24, 07:57 PM
Also, sacrificing an entire nation of innocents isn't something even a Solar Exalted can shrug off. You will get a lot of enemies from that, many of whom will be Exalted of various standing themselves. I could see it being a lot of fun, but only if the players want to play "mad king verses the entire world" or something similar, with themselves in the role of the mad king.

Rutee
2008-04-24, 08:30 PM
Do exalted sorcerors mind that they have to sacrifice entire kingdoms to fuel their spells? Because for what I saw in D&D if the cost for an ability isn't measured in gold or exp then the player will gladly pay it. Commit acts of unspeakable evil? Sure. Lick the feets of my god every morning? Right on it. Be a tree hugger? Anything for what I want.
Given the relative lack of Sorcerers among games I've seen, and the sheer power of Solar Circle Sorcery, I'm going to say that Exalted Sorcs probably do mind. Not when they reach Insane God King status, but before then, oh yes.


And don't get me started in the diplomacy rules. Screw spells, you only need to know how to talck well and the world is yours, whitout right to save or spell resistance or any kind of defense whatsoever.
Social Encounters are kind of like that, except there are lots of defenses.


But wait, knowledge skills is even better. Because some drunck designer decided there is a god that if you make a knowledge religion DC30 to call him apears before you and grants you one wish for free.

D&D magic isn't imba. D&D skills are imba.
DnD magic is imba, because you compare it to melee class features out of ToB and the melee should just feel embarrassed. I'll accept that DnD skills are just as much so, but the magic is still grossly powerful.

Indon
2008-04-24, 08:50 PM
the Terrestrials up to their Ability,

Ability+Specialty - before your Celestials start breaking 5 Essence, this puts the Terrestrials only 2 dice behind. Their Manse and Artifact advantages are also a big equalizer.

Of course, it's the lack of perfects which is their big weakness, and their ability to bolster others which is their biggest strength. A terrestrial in a celestial circle functions more as a facilitator.


2. Monsters are suped up largely through adding Soak. And this would lead to more ridiculous die-rolls and never-ending combats, because you'd roll your 20 die pool attack and still only have 1 die left over to roll damage after calculating soak. So when you were powerful enough to kill a mere mortal by sneezing, a spirit which was a comparable challenge to you could still barely be scratched by you. (Note: corollary--unless you built a Dawn Caste specializing in dealing damage, in which case only the Dawn Caste would be accomplishing anything in combat, and everyone else would be admiring the Eclipse's pretty hair. On the other hand, I think I might have won a battle by forcing the enemy to admire my Eclipse's pretty hair, so there might be a tradeoff after all). Anyway, I think maybe 2nd edition fixed this a little, though.

I houseruled the soak system, stealing something from World of Darkness.

Rolling soak, and removing minimum damage, makes multiple attacks at lower damage pools less effective, and increases the potential lethality of higher damage pools by increasing possible damage range. I find it's served my game well.

I also mildly houseruled initiative to only be rolled at the beginning of combat, for streamlining purposes.

lumberofdabeast
2008-04-27, 11:35 PM
Haven't statted this out yet - still reading the rules (and most of the fluff for that matter, so point out any contradictions) - but here's the concept I have so far...

Ryless was a thinker, not a fighter. Okay, she was a fighter too - all the Lunars are - but she loved lore. She eagerly gathered every last story she could find, memorizing them carefully before hunting for more. Around her thirty-fifth birthday, she... smelled something. A scent, carried to her by the fickle winds of the Wyld, that seemed deeply familiar in some way, and called to her. She spoke to an elder of it, and the elder gave his opinion. The Solars were returning; perhaps her mate re-Exalted, and if so, he or she couldn't possibly be deep into Creation. And the Wyld Hunt had been growing lax as of late... It took her all of an hour to say her farewells, gather her meager possessions and set out; she wanted to meet him or her, because she had... plans.

The Old Realm had become decadent and weak in its last days, but she felt she knew how to prevent this. The Solars then had sought to unite all of Creation, and provide for them. If she could convince the Solars - starting with her mate, of course - to allow nations to remain independent of each other and encourage controlled competition, with the Solars as neutral arbitrators and unifiers in times of need, then the people would remain strong.

So she went on her way, failing to meet any Sidereals along the way (to her disappointment; she is deeply certain that they are the ones that kept the Solars from re-Exalting, and she wants to find out how, to turn it on them - one thousand years for every hour the Solars spent away), and eventually happened upon her mate. Who had become the Abyssal known as the Wanderer in Shadowed Hearts. After fleeing for her life, she came to the conclusion that something must have happened to her Mate's essence. She took the name Ryless the Mourning (...okay, okay, I haven't figured out a suitable animal totem yet... but it'll go here when I do), and resolved to find a way to redeem her fallen mate.

And then go with him on a quest of righteous vengeance.

(As a side note, a goal of mine, if not Ryless' (how could she know?), is to figure out a way to get rid of the Great Curse. I think I may have figured out a possible solution, though it might be hard to convince a Storyteller that it's a good idea...)
She unleashes the power of some ancient artifact or another, after learning it could cleanse the Wanderer of his corruption. At this point, the Great Curse is ripped from every last Exalted, all at once. Including the Abyssals, who are all purged of their Abyssalness. The collected darkness heads down to the Underworld; guess what happens there. End Result: 300 Solars once again... but the Great Curse is now made manifest in that for every Celestial Exalt (Are Terrestrials affected by the Great Curse, or are they just jerks?), there's an Abyssal Exalt serving as their counterpoint, meaning that there's still plenty of conflict. More, in fact, since the number of the Abyssals just more than quadrupled, assuming that the Terrestrials don't get Abyssal versions too. And Ryless won't actually have to learn about the Great Curse at any point. (Side effects may include nausea, seeing bright flashes, and the near-simultaneous deaths of every single Exalted in creation.)

So, any advice on stating her out, or help with my idea on altering the fundamental nature of the Great Curse?

Oslecamo
2008-04-28, 07:36 AM
DnD magic is imba, because you compare it to melee class features out of ToB and the melee should just feel embarrassed. I'll accept that DnD skills are just as much so, but the magic is still grossly powerful.

I'm sorry, but the only thing that ToB does better than the other melees is being really flashy.

You can easily reach absurd amounts of damage combining the right feats, and there are plenty of defensive and utility feats and melee class features out there.

And even then, maneuvers still pale when compared to spells.

Warblade:I make a strike of perfect clarity!
Wizard:I change the fabric of the universe to my wishes!
Crusader:I make an uber charge!
Cleric:I gate forth the most brutal cretures in existance!
Swordage:I make a big explosion with my sword!
Druid:I transform myself into a 100 feet atomic demon!

Rutee
2008-04-28, 08:24 PM
I'm sorry, but the only thing that ToB does better than the other melees is being really flashy

no, the only thing ToB does better then other melee is everything, on the caveat that you're not going to do massive book diving.

lumberofdabeast
2008-04-28, 11:38 PM
Lack of input makes me a sad Lumby. ;_;

Also,
As a more practical example, if you want to know what a semi-newbie solar will do, let's imagine said solar wants to be teh m0zt kickass guitar player ever. He sets out to write his first song. The result is like a mix of Freebird and Stairway to heaven dialed up to 11, with riffs better than cult of Personality, Paranoid, and Iron man combined, more epicness than Shine on You crazy Diamond and Supper's ready, and better solos than Steve Ouimette's version of The Devil Went Down to Georgia, Back In Black, and Sweet Child o' Mine and Paradise city. All of that put together. And if you DESCRIBE it like that, it's going to be even better than that.

That's what a semi newbie solar can do.So, Green Grass and High Tides?

Talya
2008-04-28, 11:43 PM
The fluff for this book is wonderfully written.

The crunch is...awful. I cannot for the life of me keep my concentration enough while reading it to know what the hell they are talking about. I am completely lost at this game.

lumberofdabeast
2008-04-28, 11:48 PM
The fluff for this book is wonderfully written.

The crunch is...awful. I cannot for the life of me keep my concentration enough while reading it to know what the hell they are talking about. I am completely lost at this game.

I have that problem with all the crunch. My solution is to just learn by playing.

Tengu
2008-04-29, 09:37 AM
The crunch is...awful. I cannot for the life of me keep my concentration enough while reading it to know what the hell they are talking about. I am completely lost at this game.

Hmm, I don't know about second edition but in the first one crunch is written in an easy to understand way. I think you're just one of these people who take a lot of time to learn a new system.

By the way, can anyone give me some examples of broken character builds for first edition?

Talya
2008-04-29, 10:12 AM
Meanwhile, I'm sure book pirates long ago figured out how to get past the watermarks

Yes, yes they have.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-29, 11:05 AM
I actually think it is more correct to say that the crunch is good, but written in a horribly convoluted fashion and with bad editing, Talya. At least i have found the game to run very well when i play it, the writing of it is just less good.

Indon
2008-04-29, 12:05 PM
By the way, can anyone give me some examples of broken character builds for first edition?

The easiest way I can think of to really lay on the cheese for 1'st edition Exalted is to be an Eclipse Caste Solar - cherry pick the _really_ awesome charms and, well, you have really awesome charms.

Spirits, for example, get a healing charm that's more powerful than the high-end Solar Medicine charms (Solars just aren't all that good at healing, not without big energy expenditure). Spirits also get an awesome Extra Actions charm.

Even Dragon-Blooded charms have significant utility in the hands of an Eclipse, due to their high efficiency combined with the large Essence pool of a Solar.

Rutee
2008-04-29, 01:04 PM
Hmm, I don't know about second edition but in the first one crunch is written in an easy to understand way. I think you're just one of these people who take a lot of time to learn a new system.

By the way, can anyone give me some examples of broken character builds for first edition?

Second edition was slightly better explained then first, especially Combos, so I'll second this. And, for broken builds..

http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Scrollreader/7

The big problem here? Scroll isn't the type to write cheat sheets on his characters, so you'll need to dig this up :P

Check out VBoS, Death Parrying STroke, and Essence Gathering Temper, for starters, though.

To be fair, he's a total combat wombat; He could have been socialled into submission with relative ease. But he's pretty much impossible to hurt, thanks to Death Parrying Stroke and EGT.

Gungnir
2008-04-29, 03:59 PM
Hmm, I don't know about second edition but in the first one crunch is written in an easy to understand way. I think you're just one of these people who take a lot of time to learn a new system.

By the way, can anyone give me some examples of broken character builds for first edition?

There was a spell, Terrestrial Circle, that let you animate objects to do your bidding, like a certain mouse did with some brooms, except without the losing control part. Long story short, my character had 5 massive lengths of fighting chain, which basically either attacked with 13 dice, or defended him with 13 dice, forever. Combine that with a stunt, and you have yourself a giant fist made of chains, smashing down on some random mooks with 67 dice for the attack, and 80 some dice of damage. Note that the character himself was completely free to act on his own, and could even just leave the chains somewhere, defending a set area, for the slight cost of 5 committed motes of essence each. Then we agreed to retcon it so the spell never existed.

That spell was SO wrong.

PS: Tengu, I seem to have a knack for knowing where your icons come from. Ganymede Rock Lobster, right?

Tengu
2008-04-29, 06:39 PM
And it's just terrestial circle...

Yes, it's the delicious lobster indeed.

Ascension
2008-04-29, 08:25 PM
Wait, I've only skimmed the rulebook and heard hearsay about Exalted... I had no idea there were still squishy frail mortals somewhere underneath all the god-killing ubermensches. I feel sorry for them... playthings in the hands of fickle overpowered overlords, completely and totally helpless. And they say 40k is "GRIMANDARK" :smallsigh:

I think it's strange how Exalted can't really decide what it wants to be. On the one hand you have incredible over the top awesomeness, on the other hand what I've seen of the deeper flavor seems to display the corruption of pretty much all of the factions. It's happy-go-lucky and grim and depressing... Weird.

Out of curiosity, are any of the supremely powerful factions looking out for the interests of the poor mortals? Or are they too concerned with their own infighting to care how many weaklings die? Would saving humanity and telling all the immortal jackasses to get a life be an appropriate motivation?

Joe Peasant will win in the end! I swear it!

Terraoblivion
2008-04-29, 08:50 PM
The Silver Pact cares about mortals. Sorta. They do think they know best what is good for mortals and are more than willing to send their mortals to war with each other over it, in any case they think that whichever group survives was clearly superior and have grown stronger from it.

The sidereals also sorta want the best for mortals. They are just extremely pragmatic and more than willing to sacrifice millions if it can prevent even more deaths. Unfortunately they don't agree on what is the way that will save the most people and are willing to use mortals as pawns.

However, for both of these groups it is important to remember that when you have to safeguard the entire world against horrible beings from outside that want to destroy it you might have to do some unpleasant things at times. Overall i would say that most exalts are basically decent people who want the best for everyone and uses their powers to that end. The problem comes when they disagree on what is the best.

And dragonblooded and solars are way too varied to have a general consensus on how to treat mortals. Some lord their power over them, while others grow neurotic from trying to avoid dominating the mortals they meet.

And telling other powerful beings to stop dominating mortals and letting them live their own lives is definitely a valid motivation. My very first Exalted character had exactly that motivation actually.

Gungnir
2008-04-29, 10:32 PM
And it's just terrestial circle...

Heh, that reminded me of my favorite Solar Circle spell. It was a homebrew someone made up, and it threw a mountain at something. Literally, guy starts casting the spell, and 15 ticks later, there is a mountain flying quite accurately towards a target of his choice. The reason it's my favorite is how perfect defenses interacted with it; Perfect Dodges would only work if they took you out of the mountain's range, and Perfect Parries would leave a small, Solar-shaped hole where you were standing.

In one of the 2nd Ed books, there exists the phrase, "effectively infinite damage". Eat that, antimatter summoners.

Tengu
2008-04-30, 07:53 AM
Out of curiosity, are any of the supremely powerful factions looking out for the interests of the poor mortals? Or are they too concerned with their own infighting to care how many weaklings die? Would saving humanity and telling all the immortal jackasses to get a life be an appropriate motivation?

Joe Peasant will win in the end! I swear it!

It's a game about forging your own destiny - if all the factions around are too corrupted, change the world on your own! Granted, not at the start...
Most Solars would be described in DND as CG, which means they usually don't form large factions and operate in small groups instead, at least until they are powerful enough to single-handedly rule kingdoms and such.

Also, Lookshy looks like a very decent place - it's highly militaristic, but also treats both citizens and visitors with fairness. It's probably the most powerful city in the eastern lands. Plus, it has fantasy mecha, which is always in plus.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-30, 10:59 AM
Lookshy is one of the only two great powers in Creation not actively out to mess up the world, the other being the Realm. Mask of Winters, Ma-Ha-Suchi, The Lover Clad in a Raiment of Tears, The Silver Prince of Skullstone and the Lintha Family at the very least are not people you want to get too much power.

Lookshy annoys me somewhat as it seems like the person who wrote the bits about it was a complete fanboy about his own creation. It is just described as being too awesome and perfect to sit entirely well with me. It still is really awesome it is a Japanese, steampunk version of Sparta, but without the slavery and killing of children. It is quite nationalistic and more than willing to sacrifice foreigners to save Lookshyans, but in general believes that the best thing for Lookshy is to help all of the Scavenger Lands. The Scavenger Lands also holds one of the other fairly nice places in Creation, Great Forks. And when you get right down to it the Realm isn't that bad either. It compares favorably to Imperial Russia at least and in an iron age setting that is fairly positive.

Even so the setting is meant to be a horrible place to live. The idea is to show why it needs heroes to enter the scene and put thinks aright. Which is why solars are portrayed to be generally CG as Tengu says, though DnD alignments are not a good match. Several solars are rather unpleasant though, Arianna the iconic Twilight for example.

Tengu
2008-04-30, 03:30 PM
True, your type of Exalted does not automatically mark you as good or evil. Except the Abyssals, they are either moustache-twirling evil or good by their own moral code, but deluded and actually evil.

Cubey
2008-04-30, 03:38 PM
Lookshy is the Marty Stu of Exalted nations - it's the most "good", is a combination of Japan and Sparta for double the fanboy factor, has the most powerful and coolest warstriders (although I have to admit, they're damn cool), its Dragon Blooded population is roughly one percent, as opposed to one per every 100.000 people in the realm, and its mook soldiers use weapons that are the stuff of legends or tools for Exalted in other places. It's either very cool if you buy it, or very annoying if you don't. One thing for sure, if I ever put Lookshy into my game, I'm toning it down a bit.

And the Creation isn't a total crapsack world to live in - your life can be pretty good until something bad happens, as opposed to Warhammer 40K for example, where your life is pretty bad until something VERY bad happens. It's still far from perfect, and hence the need for heroes to change it. And because Solars are powerful, they CAN change it - even into a total hippy utopia if given enough time.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-30, 03:50 PM
Abyssals can be individually good, Tengu. Their very existence is evil, however, and the more moral among them constantly need to find ways to do good without the Neverborn getting angry and hurting the area around them. So abyssals who are actually decent people are quite cursed like that.

As for Lookshy there are some bad sides to the country. It is for example the one among the decent people who is most willing to use weapons of mass destruction and they litterally only care about Lookshy. The rest of the Scavenger Lands are only somebody they help because it serves the interests of Lookshy. And they did perform a magical massacre to get rid of a faction of their government they didn't like and continually sacrifices solar-aspected beings to avoid the city blowing up. So morally they are somewhat tarnished and not really any better than the Realm or Great Forks or the Haltan Republic or one of most other major nations. The badassness and fanboy factor of Lookshy is still very strong, though.

And Creation is pretty much a standard iron age world to live in for most people most of the time. So much backbreaking labor and the constant threat of a bad harvest forcing you to sell family members into slavery, but it is generally no worse than living in our world back then. Unless you live in a shadowland or some other major threat is screwing up your life.

lumberofdabeast
2008-04-30, 05:56 PM
Please, Tengu, allow me to point you in the general direction of... *deep breath*

The Most Secret And Sorrowful Of The Bearers Of The Endless Destiny Of All Creation Which Wander Amidst Forgotten Sights And Fallen Tears Along The Tread Of Ancient Ashen Footsteps Through The Shadow Of That Which Comes And Into That Riotous Cacophony Which Births All Fools And Steals All Beauty, Who Heralds Through Her Silence The Stillness And Chill Of Those Who Were Not Born And Who... Will Not Fade 'Till All Things Fall And... In That Most Grim Harvest Form The... Final Restful Tomb Of... All Awakened Life And... All The... Sleep... less... De-* (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html) *collapses*

Oh, and thanks for all the help, everyone.