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Ellisthion
2008-04-22, 09:47 AM
I just bought the PHBII and (as DM) am planning on including it in my game. However, from reading through it it's pretty clear that, as with any book, there's a few things that are a little bit broken and should be left out of my game.

So. What would be a complete list of everything from the PHBII which is broken, or otherwise overpowered, and should not be included in a game that, other than the PHBII, is only Core books?

SamTheCleric
2008-04-22, 09:54 AM
Well, what do you consider overpowering? We can't exactly tell you what is broken unless we gauge your cheese-o-meter.

AmberVael
2008-04-22, 09:54 AM
The Arcane Thesis feat.
The Celerity spells.

Those are the two things that instantly come to mind.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-22, 10:03 AM
The Arcane Thesis feat.
The Celerity spells.

Those are the two things that instantly come to mind.

Those are actually the only two that spring right to mind for me. I found PHBII to be pretty well balanced on the whole.

valadil
2008-04-22, 10:12 AM
The base classes Duskblade and Beguiler are powerful but not broken. At first glance I thought they were too powerful, but the more I see them in use the more I like them. They let a player be reasonably powerful without having to optimize. You can optimize, but neither class will be better than a wizard or druid (you could argue that a shadowcrafter beguiler is broken, but so is a shadowcrafter wizard or sorc). Ever see a newb try to play an arcane rogue? I saw a sorc/rogue. At level 9 he had level 2 spells and 2d6 sneak attack. It was downright pathetic.

Other than that, watch out for Melf's Unicorn Arrow. It does way more damage than it looks like and it's untyped damage. It's my current spell of choice for the sorcerer with a single damage spell.

Eldariel
2008-04-22, 10:57 AM
Beguiler is the strongest class in the book and it doesn't hold a candle to any top classes in core (Wiz Dru Cle) due to the limited spell selection. All the feats are great additions save for Arcane Thesis, which is indeed broken, especially if you allow it to reduce adjustments to 0, but even without it. And yea, the spells save for Celerities are interesting; Celerities can do stupid stuff, especially if not reworded to 'skip your next turn' instead of being Dazed - being Dazed is avoidable, just skipping a turn isn't.

The book is less of the 'broken' and more of the 'barrels o' fun'. Also, the balance is decent and there're usable ACFs for almost all classes. Also makes adding depth to your characters easy and the retraining rules are very useful to avoid getting stuck with a character you don't really want to play. And the affiliation-rules give whole new ways to play the game; not just adventuring, but being a part of something greater and raising in ranks and so on. Oh yeah, and thanks to Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy, Weapon Focus-chain may actually be worth picking up for some characters. Archers really love the Ranged Weapon Mastery as they otherwise have issues increasing their damage. A bunch of interesting handy feats and good tacticals along with new groups rounds it all out - very usable material, not too low-powered, but definitely not broken in terms of core.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 11:07 AM
One other thing is pretty broken. One of the ACFs for Wizards gives him way too much of a defensive boost. If you trade away your familiar, you can Abrupt Jaunt your Int Bonus times per day. And all you have to do is specialize in Conjuration. Oh noez!!! Da PAIN!!!

Squash Monster
2008-04-22, 12:03 PM
Broken:
Celerity

Vastly overpowered:
Arcane Thesis
Abrupt Jaunt

Way less powerful than paranoid DMs think it is:
Duskblade

Way more powerful than Duskblade:
Beguiler

Potentially worth banning:
Celerity
Abrupt Jaunt

Barrels of fun:
The whole book

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 12:12 PM
One other thing is pretty broken. One of the ACFs for Wizards gives him way too much of a defensive boost. If you trade away your familiar, you can Abrupt Jaunt your Int Bonus times per day. And all you have to do is specialize in Conjuration. Oh noez!!! Da PAIN!!!

That depends on your level. If the campaign is past level 11 Abrupt Jaunt is so-so to poor. If it's from 7-10, it's better then a familiar, barely. And if it's 1-6 it's a significant improvement.

If you plan on running the whole gambit, I wouldn't recommend it.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-22, 12:15 PM
If you plan on running the whole gambit gamut, I wouldn't recommend it.

Fixed that for you... :smallbiggrin:

And yes, abrupt jaunt loses it's usefulness the higher level you get.. well, not loses... but it lessens.

Tyrael
2008-04-22, 12:45 PM
Robilar's Gambit. My DM absolutely refuses to ever allow it in his game.

DiscipleofBob
2008-04-22, 12:49 PM
So wait...

You're saying that a class that routinely adds things like Shocking Grasp, Blade of Blood, and True Strike to their melee attacks and can one-shot even appropriate "boss-monsters" is inferior to a class that gets shut down by anything will a decent will save (or has the phrase "immune to mind-affecting spells" in their stat block.)

Now, I'm not as much of an optimizer as most of the people on these forums, so there might be some key elements I'm missing. In that case, I won't claim that the above comments about the Duskblade and Beguiler are wrong, but here's my opinion.

A Duskblade can be VERY overpowered if you don't watch how the character is built and tailor encounters appropriately. What's the main weakness of a caster? Their squishiness. What's the main weakness of a fighter? No casting ability. Duskblade is both a caster and a fighter without either of these weaknesses. That being said, it's not necessarily overpowered as long as you keep the character playing it in mind when running encounters. Otherwise, he'll just mop the floor with anything you throw at it.

A Beguiler is a very fun class, as long as you, the DM, don't mind your NPC's being the target of multiple powerful illusion and enchantment spells. It can also make social encounters interesting, "I think we deserve double our pay." "Your highness can trust me with access to the treasury and the princess' bedchambers." "These aren't the druids you're looking for." "End of the day, and so many unused spells, seems such a waste (proceeds to spam-cast Charm Person, etc. on attractive barmaids, etc. A true Beguiler never sleeps alone. :smalltongue: )" But this is nothing you couldn't find from a caster specializing in enchantment spells. Beguilers just do it better. And they can also fill the rogue's function, only without the Sneak Attack. If the Beguiler starts dominating encounters the only real thing you have to do to make things challenging is start throwing constructs/undead/plants at the party. I once played a Beguiler in a game, but since I joined late, by that point all we were fighting were boss monsters who could make the will save, plants, constructs, and undead. I ended up having to retool to a sorcerer/rogue/arcane trickster just so I could deal damage. Still worth it for taking out a group of kobolds with Ghost Sound.

So, in conclusion...
Duskblade you just have to keep an eye on so he doesn't start dominating the combat and making everyone else feel useless.
Beguiler as long as you don't mind an enchantment/illusion-based caster, there's no reason to consider banning it.

Skyserpent
2008-04-22, 12:54 PM
So wait...

You're saying that a class that routinely adds things like Shocking Grasp, Blade of Blood, and True Strike to their melee attacks and can one-shot even appropriate "boss-monsters" is inferior to a class that gets shut down by anything will a decent will save (or has the phrase "immune to mind-affecting spells" in their stat block.)

Now, I'm not as much of an optimizer as most of the people on these forums, so there might be some key elements I'm missing. In that case, I won't claim that the above comments about the Duskblade and Beguiler are wrong, but here's my opinion.

A Duskblade can be VERY overpowered if you don't watch how the character is built and tailor encounters appropriately. What's the main weakness of a caster? Their squishiness. What's the main weakness of a fighter? No casting ability. Duskblade is both a caster and a fighter without either of these weaknesses. That being said, it's not necessarily overpowered as long as you keep the character playing it in mind when running encounters. Otherwise, he'll just mop the floor with anything you throw at it.

A Beguiler is a very fun class, as long as you, the DM, don't mind your NPC's being the target of multiple powerful illusion and enchantment spells. It can also make social encounters interesting, "I think we deserve double our pay." "Your highness can trust me with access to the treasury and the princess' bedchambers." "These aren't the druids you're looking for." "End of the day, and so many unused spells, seems such a waste (proceeds to spam-cast Charm Person, etc. on attractive barmaids, etc. A true Beguiler never sleeps alone. :smalltongue: )" But this is nothing you couldn't find from a caster specializing in enchantment spells. Beguilers just do it better. And they can also fill the rogue's function, only without the Sneak Attack. If the Beguiler starts dominating encounters the only real thing you have to do to make things challenging is start throwing constructs/undead/plants at the party. I once played a Beguiler in a game, but since I joined late, by that point all we were fighting were boss monsters who could make the will save, plants, constructs, and undead. I ended up having to retool to a sorcerer/rogue/arcane trickster just so I could deal damage. Still worth it for taking out a group of kobolds with Ghost Sound.

So, in conclusion...
Duskblade you just have to keep an eye on so he doesn't start dominating the combat and making everyone else feel useless.
Beguiler as long as you don't mind an enchantment/illusion-based caster, there's no reason to consider banning it.

Agreed with the whole Beguilers are kinda useless against anything with Will up the wazoo, but The Duskblade isn't really any more combat dominating than anything else that I've seen. I mean, yes he has really good damage abilities, he's approaching Book of Nine Swords abilities in power, but a really decked out barbarian will both out-damage and out-last the Duskblade in a brawl. Well, maybe not out-damage, but come damn close with Power Attack and all that. Duskblades are good, no doubt about that, but I wouldn't call them OP... though they do lean in that direction...

did any of that make sense?

Frosty
2008-04-22, 01:00 PM
Duskblades are very good at what they do: Deal burst damage.
They also take very little optimization out of the box to be good at it. The only thing is, damage in general just isn't that good of an option at high levels compared to what some spellcasters can do, so that's why Duskblades aren't overpowered in the higher levels. In lower levels, they dominate just like any other melee class.

Of course, if you want damage, there are also calsses that just do it better. A shock-trooper Barbarian will eclipse that Duskblade's damage output starting at level 6.

The Beguiler does start to lose some luster in the higher levels, but that's ok because standard casters are too powerful anyways. Even if the enemies are immune to mind-affecting,y ou can still screw with them with Illusions, or buff your party with Haste. You can also Slow enemies, since Slow is not mind-affecting as far as I remember. You also have a powerful battlefiled control spell in Solid Fog. Divide and Conquer with that spell so your allies can focus on a few baddies at a time.

Eldariel
2008-04-22, 01:01 PM
Agreed with the whole Beguilers are kinda useless against anything with Will up the wazoo, but The Duskblade isn't really any more combat dominating than anything else that I've seen. I mean, yes he has really good damage abilities, he's approaching Book of Nine Swords abilities in power, but a really decked out barbarian will both out-damage and out-last the Duskblade in a brawl. Well, maybe not out-damage, but come damn close with Power Attack and all that. Duskblades are good, no doubt about that, but I wouldn't call them OP... though they do lean in that direction...

did any of that make sense?

If you're implying that Duskblades are in any shape or form 10 miles from imbalanced, no. That simply does not compute.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 01:05 PM
If you're implying that Duskblades are in any shape or form 10 miles from imbalanced, no. That simply does not compute.

If you were to rate the Duskblade on a power level of 1 to 10, where would you place him? 1 is Commoner (without Handle Animal maxed), and 10 is Batman Wizard. (Incantatrix and Planar Shepherds break the scale with 15)

DiscipleofBob
2008-04-22, 01:05 PM
Agreed with the whole Beguilers are kinda useless against anything with Will up the wazoo, but The Duskblade isn't really any more combat dominating than anything else that I've seen. I mean, yes he has really good damage abilities, he's approaching Book of Nine Swords abilities in power, but a really decked out barbarian will both out-damage and out-last the Duskblade in a brawl. Well, maybe not out-damage, but come damn close with Power Attack and all that. Duskblades are good, no doubt about that, but I wouldn't call them OP... though they do lean in that direction...

did any of that make sense?

Made sense to me. I guess it's that from what I've seen a Duskblade takes a lot less effort to break and, in a party of mostly non-optimizing players, can seem pretty broken quickly (then again, the main campaign I played with one the DM allowed the Duskblade to have a customized legacy armor from the getgo, so that might skew my perception somewhat. That particular DM now believes without a doubt that the Duskblade is completely broken. Yea, it's mostly the DM's fault there, but I can't say his claim is completely unfounded.)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 01:10 PM
Nah. Duskblades are out-of-the-box powerful, but they're not so easy to break.

No, wait. Lemme rephrase that: Duskblades are EASY to break in a burst of damage, but breaking them and having ANY measure of power remainig for the next encounter is a whole 'nuther can o' worms.

Yeah, you can nova with them, just as a psywar or psion can do it. But just like them, don't expect to be able to do that for four encounters a day.

Eldariel
2008-04-22, 01:25 PM
If you were to rate the Duskblade on a power level of 1 to 10, where would you place him? 1 is Commoner (without Handle Animal maxed), and 10 is Batman Wizard. (Incantatrix and Planar Shepherds break the scale with 15)

Around 5-6 for the whole journey from level 1 to 20. There'd still be a number of stuff below it; it feels about on the level of Fighter and Barbarian. Fighter may be a bit higher due to the staggering amount of versatility and finished feat chains (do note how a well-built Fighter can even give ToB-chars hard time).

Duskblade's main problem is the weakness of his arcane side; while he has insane spells per day on the levels he knows, he doesn't get higher levels at normal pace and never gets past level 5, leaving his buffs severely lacking and overall causing him to lose out in efficiency. Duskblade actually starts out strong, he just gets weaker very fast as the spell levels sail by - the Bard-syndrome without Sublime Chord to cure it. On level 1, I'd say Duskblade is a 9 or a 10 and for the first 3-4 levels that remains true (heck, even on levels 3 and 4, not having access to spells such as Glitterdust, Web and company, nor to more than 3 feats is a bummer). Then the long feat chainsand higher level spells, powers and maneuvers start to kick in for the other classes (Shock Trooper is level 6, which is when chargers start to really deal damage, lockdown has gotten all the basics including Thicket of Blades if going mostly Crusader, Dungeon Crashers reach their full potency on level 6, Wizards, Clerics et al. are casting level 3 spells and Druids are Wildshaping) and they fly right past him.


Basically, early on a Duskblade is the only really possible Gish since it gets its abilities from the get-go, but once you start to be able to combine Wizard and Fighter, it quickly gets left behind; most Arcane Gishes have 17 BAB and ~18th level Wizard casting to Duskblade's 20 BAB and 9th level Wizard casting (albeit in larger numbers; Wizard has about as many slots, but most of them are in the higher levels).

Squash Monster
2008-04-22, 01:25 PM
If you were to rate the Duskblade on a power level of 1 to 10, where would you place him? 1 is Commoner (without Handle Animal maxed), and 10 is Batman Wizard. (Incantatrix and Planar Shepherds break the scale with 15)Why is Batman Wizard so often cited as the best thing ever on this forum? It's just a way of playing a Wizard competently without being the death of nations. God-style (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548) Wizards are much more powerful than Batman-style. And what's more, Wizard is still the fifth best, behind Cleric, Druid, Archivist, and Artificer. And finally, sure, Incantatrix is one of the best three arcane caster prestige classes -- along with Shadowcraft Mage and, to a lesser extent, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil -- but the class has nothing on Planar Shepherd or any of the best three divine caster prestige classes (the others being Dweomerkeeper and Shadowcraft Mage).

/rant.


Back on topic: all the arguments that say why Duskblade is so powerful go something like this: "We all know how powerful full casters are, and this is one that gets full BAB and armor use!"

The reason why this is wrong is that it assumes all full casters are super-powerful. Lots of them, such as Warmage and especially Healer, are pretty sad. It's not full-casting that makes a class powerful: it's the choice of spells. Duskblades just don't get the spells that make other casters terrifying: Black Tentacles and Righteous Might and the like.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 01:34 PM
Around 5-6 for the whole journey from level 1 to 20. There'd still be a number of stuff below it; it feels about on the level of Fighter and Barbarian. Fighter may be a bit higher due to the staggering amount of versatility and finished feat chains (do note how a well-built Fighter can even give ToB-chars hard time).

Does that mean Adept > Duskblade, since Adept > Fighter?

Reel On, Love
2008-04-22, 01:34 PM
Why is Batman Wizard so often cited as the best thing ever on this forum? It's just a way of playing a Wizard competently without being the death of nations. God-style (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956548) Wizards are much more powerful than Batman-style.
They're, uh, the same basic idea, except that Treantmonk has too much of a fetish for summoning and for Focused Specialization (which is A Trap).


And what's more, Wizard is still the fifth best, behind Cleric, Druid, Archivist, and Artificer. And finally, sure, Incantatrix is one of the best three arcane caster prestige classes -- along with Shadowcraft Mage and, to a lesser extent, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil -- but the class has nothing on Planar Shepherd or any of the best three divine caster prestige classes (the others being Dweomerkeeper and Shadowcraft Mage).

/rant.
Artificer I'll grant you. Wizard is only behind Archivist if you allow "Well, a Warlock 12 made me a divine scroll of this arcane spell" shenanigans. Frankly, you'd be lucky to even get Divine Bard spells, in most games. Wizards are fully as powerful as, or more powerful than, clerics and druids, with the balance fluctuating based on the level.
Dweomerkeeper has (Su) Wish/miracle cheese, except if you're getting free wishes, you might as well be doing it via Planar Binding. Planar Shepherd doesn't count.

Person_Man
2008-04-22, 01:42 PM
PHBII is the model for balance as far as I'm concerned. It's useful and flavorful, but with the exception of Arcane Thesis and Celerity, nothing is really broken.

Duskblade: Excellent at hitting things and dealing plenty of damage. Not good at anything else.

Beguiler: Excellent at sneaking, scouting, and Mind Affecting effects. Almost no direct damage, limited battlefield control.

Knight: Excellent tank and battlefield controller. Nothing close to a ToB maneuver though, no magic, and a somewhat limiting code of conduct.

Dragon Shaman: OK, this one is garbage.

Adaptable Flanker is helpful for Rogues who don't want to invest in Greater Invisibility or a Ring of Blinking.

Brutal Strike and Combat Panache are helpful for Hexblades.

Combat Acrobat is useful if your DM is fond of using terrain.

Defensive Sweep works well with Thicket of Blades (ToB).

Leap of Heavens is useful with Battle Jump (Unapproachable East).

Smiting Spell is useful for Gish and Duskblade builds.

Steadfast Determination is useful for anyone with high Con and low Wis.

Wanderer's Diplomacy is good for Diplomancers.

Rob's Gambit is great for any melee build, but requires enemies to make melee attacks (many don't), gives you an AC penalty, and requires high Dex and Combat Reflexes to use properly.

One of my favorite overlooked combo's is Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability. +4 Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist (but not initiate) bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempts.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 01:49 PM
I myself would rate the classes as such:

Beguiler 7.5
Dragon Shaman 4
Duskblade 6
Knight 6.5

Knight would be a 7 if it got a few maneuvers and some more bonus feats.

Eldariel
2008-04-22, 01:54 PM
Does that mean Adept > Duskblade, since Adept > Fighter?

I'm not sure if Adept > Fighter really. A properly built Fighter can be a valuable asset to a party and certainly fill the Tank and the Glass Cannon-slots at the same time. The problem with Fighters is the fact that with just Core, they used to suck since there weren't enough feats to use all the bonuses they accrue. With all the splat books, that's no longer an issue, and since Fighter's power is directly proportional to the amount of powerful feats available in the pool, with sufficient splatbookery, the Fighter reaches playable levels.

In fact, as long as Polymorph is banned, I'm fairly sure Adepts don't hold a candle to Fighters and are indeed outmatched. The spell list has a few SoDs, but beyond that, it's mostly healing, and those few SoDs alone aren't enough to push the Adept through - there's none of the evasive power of a Wizard, nor the 'save-and-still-suck's and 'just-plain-dies' a Wizard wins things with. Basically, Fighters are belittled, but when properly built, they're actually pretty high up the tier scale and definitely a good addition to any party if you can find someone who doesn't get bored by the monotonous course of action Fighters generally follow. That said, a Dungeon Crushing AoO Charging Tripper with a few tactical feats is plenty interesting to play few levels into the game, so yea, much of the Fighter-hate comes from the time when it was indeed a commoner with HP.


As far as Duskblade vs. Adept goes, Adept is mostly a healer so Duskblade should win in a combat; Adept can try SoDs, but again, an Adept's attack is very one-dimensional and doesn't have too strong defenses, so Duskblade has little trouble hacking into the flesh and burning it up. That said, Duskblades have a crappy spell selection, which further hampers their growth and power. Early on their lack of versatility is forgivable, but as they progress in levels, they'd probably want to be able to do something other than hit things with a sword and a spell each turn.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-04-22, 01:55 PM
One of my favorite overlooked combo's is Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability. +4 Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist (but not initiate) bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempts.

Whenever you mention this combat you should always mention it only works in combat for in this case 12 rounds(usually enough to finish a combat) and that it requires 13 WIS or people will start shouting it's overpowered.

BTW you just picked Combat Stability to double the other two bonuses, it isn't really that great on it's own right?

The_Snark
2008-04-22, 02:22 PM
Combat Stability is pretty decent, although its primary purpose is getting you to that 3-feat point where all the bonuses double. Being able to resist grapple attempts is valuable, and resisting trip and disarm attempts can help a lot against specialized human opponents. I've also always liked Combat Awareness, but the high level requisite and the extra feat it requires are annoying.

I'd agree with what has been said here. The Beguiler is a nice class, although the fact that it generally relies on save-or-lose effects makes it annoying for DMs. It's not nearly as useless against enemies immune to mind-affecting stuff as you'd think; their spell list includes enough helpful spells—Haste, Improved Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Displacement—that they can contribute to a combat against zombies or golems simply by buffing allies. Or they can use Slow, Solid Fog, and dispels, either one. If they don't have allies to buff, they have a choice of going and getting themselves allies, or sneaking past the problem. They're quite potent when cleverly played.

Abrupt Jaunt is probably too powerful, although a high-level wizard who's doing things like giving his familiar spells and UMD ranks is probably getting more cheese out of that. It's certainly much more powerful than any of the other options, which range from decent to weak.

Arcane Thesis is a little too good. If you allow that absurd trick where you apply things like Energy Substitution to get -1 spell level and then balance it out with other metamagic feats, it's broken.

Celerity is broken if you're using it in conjunction with Foresight, anything that lets you recover after the daze, or Twin Spell. Without those, it's only potentially broken, and I'd allow Lesser Celerity to be used.

I liked the book. They've managed to put polymorph effects back into the game in a format that isn't broken and doesn't require tons of flipping through the monster manual, most of the feats are interesting, and I like a lot of the substitution features.

weenie
2008-04-22, 02:44 PM
What a lot of people usually forget is that Duskblades can use metamagic feats too. They suffer while doing so until level 12, but afterwards they can pick Rapid Metamagic(Complete Mage) and casting time is no longer a problem. Pick the following: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Easy Metamagic(Empower Spell), Easy Metamagic(Maximize Spell), Arcane Thesis(Vampiric Touch). Suddenly you can deal an average of 54 damage to all those you hit in that round(assumed lvl13 and not counting weapon damage), and "heal" yourself simultaneously for the same ammount. Sure, Duskblades suffer from a terrible lack of spell selection, but they are far far better than a Fighter.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 03:12 PM
What a lot of people usually forget is that Duskblades can use metamagic feats too. They suffer while doing so until level 12, but afterwards they can pick Rapid Metamagic(Complete Mage) and casting time is no longer a problem. Pick the following: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Easy Metamagic(Empower Spell), Easy Metamagic(Maximize Spell), Arcane Thesis(Vampiric Touch). Suddenly you can deal an average of 54 damage to all those you hit in that round(assumed lvl13 and not counting weapon damage), and "heal" yourself simultaneously for the same ammount. Sure, Duskblades suffer from a terrible lack of spell selection, but they are far far better than a Fighter.

Right. So basically using the cheesiest feats (and one from Dragon Magazine, which many DMs will not allow), you can have one decent trick. No thanks. I'd rather take a Lockdown/Charger Fighter.

Kizara
2008-04-22, 03:26 PM
If one did feel that the Duskblade was a tad too powerful and wanted to reduce that somewhat without destroying key elements of the class, how would one do it?

Same with beguiler.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 03:29 PM
With beguiler, you plain can't unless you make it a rogue.

With Duskblade, just make them get everything except spells two levels higher.

Weenie: Yeah. You spent FIVE feats for subpar damage. Go you. Heck, I can do it better with a duskblade with no metamagics and less feats!

I wouldn't attempt to argue like that, because your opti-fu seems kinda weak.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-04-22, 03:31 PM
What a lot of people usually forget is that Duskblades can use metamagic feats too. They suffer while doing so until level 12, but afterwards they can pick Rapid Metamagic(Complete Mage) and casting time is no longer a problem. Pick the following: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Easy Metamagic(Empower Spell), Easy Metamagic(Maximize Spell), Arcane Thesis(Vampiric Touch). Suddenly you can deal an average of 54 damage to all those you hit in that round(assumed lvl13 and not counting weapon damage), and "heal" yourself simultaneously for the same ammount. Sure, Duskblades suffer from a terrible lack of spell selection, but they are far far better than a Fighter.

So you spend 6 feats(out of 7 or 8) to get a single extra trick that could be considered broken? and to get there you have to be sub-optimal until then? no thank you, I'd rather have the combat focus feats, power attack and the like.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-22, 03:32 PM
If one did feel that the Duskblade was a tad too powerful and wanted to reduce that somewhat without destroying key elements of the class, how would one do it?

Same with beguiler.

Well, One would need to tell other ones what problem that one had with that class so these people would be able to decipher what issue comes up with that thing.
Dig it?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 03:35 PM
1) I'm going to have to agree with Reel On, Love for a couple of points:

a) Wizards are better then Archivists in most games, Clerics and Druids other then Planar Shepard. And what he said. Planar Shepard just doesn't count.

b) God is pretty much the same as Batman, except that Treantmonk likes save-or-X less, and like Conjuration way too much. (Also the it's a trap thing, but that's okay, because you are still 2/3rds of a Wizard after falling for that trap. And 2/3rds is good enough most of the time.)

c) Duskblades are okay, not amazing.

2) Personman, I like the Combat Form feats too. I once made a Zen Archery based Fighter with the set, pretty nice. Best Will saves ever seen on a Fighter, and pretty good for combat too.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 03:35 PM
A weakened Beguiler is a Rogue. I can't in good conscience nerf duskblades.

thorgrim29
2008-04-22, 03:42 PM
Personnaly, for duskblades, I'm partial to the old: Quick Cast True Strike, then two handed power attack using arcane channeling (blade of blood or shocking grasp, maybe a ray spell at high levels), You deal a pretty awesome ammount of damage and pretty much auto hit.

weenie
2008-04-22, 03:49 PM
Right. So basically using the cheesiest feats (and one from Dragon Magazine, which many DMs will not allow), you can have one decent trick. No thanks. I'd rather take a Lockdown/Charger Fighter.

You can switch Easy Metamagic with Practical Metamagic(if you take a draconic race), and most DMs allow Arcane Thesis. And there are many other things a well built Duskblade can do, not to mention some DMs will let you pick spells from the sorcerer/wizard list.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 03:54 PM
You can switch Easy Metamagic with Practical Metamagic(if you take a draconic race), and most DMs allow Arcane Thesis. And there are many other things a well built Duskblade can do, not to mention some DMs will let you pick spells from the sorcerer/wizard list.

So in other words, if you just take away their incredibly crappy spell list, the one thing that everyone keeps saying about them sucks so much, and replace it with the best spell list in the game they are pretty good?

Who'd have thunk it?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 03:59 PM
Not to mention weenie's trick is SUBOPTIMAL. I can do better with a shocking grasp than that, at no feat cost. Heck, if I'm looking for the cheeseoff, taking metamagics would be a BAD idea. A duskblade is MUCH better served by a fighter feat.

Person_Man
2008-04-22, 04:07 PM
Whenever you mention this combat you should always mention it only works in combat for in this case 12 rounds(usually enough to finish a combat) and that it requires 13 WIS or people will start shouting it's overpowered.

Agreed. But even if it was a 24/7 thing, and not limited by the Combat Focus rules, it wouldn't be overpowered. Healing is cheap.


BTW you just picked Combat Stability to double the other two bonuses, it isn't really that great on it's own right?

I'm of the opinion that a +8 bonus to resist most special attacks is a pretty worthwhile asset. A number of common animals and monsters get free Trip/Grapple/Swallow/etc attacks whenever they attack you. And even if they don't get it automatically, particularly big enemies have a tendency to use special attacks anyway because of the bonuses they get from their size. And one of my DMs is also fond of using Trip or Dungeoncrasher builds against us whenever one of the PCs decides to play one.

So maybe its just me being paranoid.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 04:13 PM
So in other words, if you just take away their incredibly crappy spell list, the one thing that everyone keeps saying about them sucks so much, and replace it with the best spell list in the game they are pretty good?

Who'd have thunk it?

Dusblades would indeed be decent if they had the Wizard spell-list. But alas, as they are, I'm not motivated to play them.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 04:16 PM
But they ARE decent. They're very much an excellently balanced class. Where else can you BOTH cast and lay the smackdown on an enemy, outside of the arcane swordsage variant, AKA "The ultimate cheese"?

weenie
2008-04-22, 04:19 PM
Not to mention weenie's trick is SUBOPTIMAL. I can do better with a shocking grasp than that, at no feat cost. Heck, if I'm looking for the cheeseoff, taking metamagics would be a BAD idea. A duskblade is MUCH better served by a fighter feat.

Ok then, would you be so kind to provide some sort of build to back this up? Not that I don't believe there is one, but after all the acusations about my trick beeing suboptimal(it wasn't really meant to be the best one possible, I just wanted to show that Duskblades can be good at stuff) I would really like to see what I'm up against.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 04:23 PM
But they ARE decent. They're very much an excellently balanced class. Where else can you BOTH cast and lay the smackdown on an enemy, outside of the arcane swordsage variant, AKA "The ultimate cheese"?

You're right. They are already decent. But for me, they'd be more *fun* if they had the wizard spell list. I like versatility usually. A properly-build Gish can get me that.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 04:23 PM
Shock trooper, PA, leap attack, two handed wielded weapon, and I'm doing more damage per swing, more effectively, all day long, need I keep talkin'?

Starbuck_II
2008-04-22, 04:24 PM
But they ARE decent. They're very much an excellently balanced class.

True, only onebeating them in balance is Psywarr and even they could use maybe 5 pp/level at later levels more (slightly need some more pp).



Where else can you BOTH cast and lay the smackdown on an enemy, outside of the arcane swordsage variant, AKA "The ultimate cheese"?

Do you mean in a single class or a build?
I can make a casting/warrior gish.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 04:25 PM
You're right. They are already decent. But for me, they'd be more *fun* if they had the wizard spell list. I like versatility usually. A properly-build Gish can get me that.

Give 'em the Warmage's spell list and you should be done. More, and they'll bork your game like a mini wizard with additives.

Trust me, there's a reason everybody loves 10 class gishes, and it's because they bork the game with super attacks AND super spells. Think of it. D'you want something like powerful like an artificer, but out-of-the-box and spelled out?

Edit: I'm talking about a single class. ANYONE with many books can make a super 10 class gish. There's no fun in that.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 04:28 PM
But they ARE decent. They're very much an excellently balanced class. Where else can you BOTH cast and lay the smackdown on an enemy, outside of the arcane swordsage variant, AKA "The ultimate cheese"?

How about a Wizard 2/Any Martial Class 1/Elf or Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Something else 7 (Eldritch Knight/that Phantom Blade class thing, or that other one that uses his sword as a focus/channels spells and doesn't lose a CL until level 5.)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 04:31 PM
As I said, ANYBODY can make a broken 10 class gish. But show me a SINGLE or double class gish that's useful.

Yeah, the only options are The ultimate Cheese, and duskblades, psionics notwithstanding.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 04:32 PM
You can't be seriously comparing a good Gish build to the artificer. Nowhere near the same power levels.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 04:36 PM
With delayed spells and appropiate items, they can be MORE broken (Read, rod of twin spell for celerity and item of anti daze, cast greater celerity, sneak a swift spell there somewhere if SOMETHING is still standing).

'Course, that's an utterly unecessary amount of work. You already obsolete a fighterlike and can more or less toe to toe it with a caster. Why bother with that?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-22, 04:37 PM
Wiz 4/Warblade 2/JPM 7

I guarantee even a half-way competently built one of those should be a far better Gish than a Duskblade.

warmachine
2008-04-22, 04:38 PM
Melee Weapon Mastery. Though at 8th level, Fighters need every trick they can get to keep up with spellcasters with 4th level spells, it is overpowered compared to core Fighter feats. My GM has banned it.

Arcane Thesis, especially with a metamagic sorcerer. Sculpted, Empowered Fireball effectively doing 15d6 for an 8th level Sorcerer? Lovely.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 04:40 PM
1) Gishes aren't as strong as straight Wizards.

2) I actually submitted that post long before you said most of that, but you see, the server, she lags sometimes.


Melee Weapon Mastery. Though at 8th level, Fighters need every trick they can get to keep up with spellcasters with 4th level spells, it is overpowered compared to core Fighter feats. My GM has banned it.

Everything even remotely decent is overpowered next to Core Fighter feats. Adepts beat Core Fighters because Core Fighter feats suck so bad. Every book from Complete Warrior to ToB has started with the assumption that Core Fighters get run over by CR appropriate challenges.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 04:49 PM
With delayed spells and appropiate items, they can be MORE broken (Read, rod of twin spell for celerity and item of anti daze, cast greater celerity, sneak a swift spell there somewhere if SOMETHING is still standing).

'Course, that's an utterly unecessary amount of work. You already obsolete a fighterlike and can more or less toe to toe it with a caster. Why bother with that?

If your DM allows an item of anti-daze, he is a spine-less pushover and you should probably take over the DM job or walk away. Seriously. Your entire argument is that with the most broken spell (which would make any class broken) and a broken and unheard-of custom item, Gishes are broken? Well no DUH.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 04:53 PM
Well, if we're going to pit the gish against an artificer, might as well go broke, right?

And actually...an item of anti daze is a pretty good and not breakable idea, it's celerity that makes the world go kaboom.

So yeah, my entire argument centers on an absolutely broken combo with a broken spell. Against the thing that makes AO seem like it's lite version. Your point?

Warmachine: We're talking about dodge and weapon focus? Well, if you put it *that* way, Dilligent is a good choice. You should show your DM the true b0rkenz0rz, maybe he'll be more understanding with fighters.

As for Arcane Thesis, that's a small fraction of it's power. As you said, it's totally broken, but in a far greater measure than you think.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 05:06 PM
You can't really use custom items that are GM-dependent to make your arguments. Without an item of anti-daze, your combo doesn't work like that anymore. Celerity's Daze condition is there to balance out the benefits of the spell.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 05:10 PM
In any case, there IS an item that granted daze immunity, or a handful of spells. So that point is invalidated.

(Boy, how I wish I had an OBJECTION! pic to link to at the top of this post...)

Frosty
2008-04-22, 05:13 PM
Show me the item, and give a reference please. And yes, there is a spell to do that. Will you have a Paladin there to cast it on you every time? I guess you can get it as a scroll and UMD it on yourself, but that's unreliable and expensive. Plus, you'll have to hold a scroll in your hand.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 05:15 PM
Iron body, or whatever was the name. You can cast it, so do so, or craft a few scrolls. There. Ubercheese, come 'ere!

Frosty
2008-04-22, 05:22 PM
you also have the equivalent of Full-Plate penalties while under the effects of Iron Body, including the 40% or so Arcane Spell Failure. That spell is made of fail.

EDIT: Worse than fullplate apparently.

Quorothorn
2008-04-22, 05:28 PM
Iron body, or whatever was the name. You can cast it, so do so, or craft a few scrolls. There. Ubercheese, come 'ere!

What, this one (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsHtoL.html#iron-body)?

Edit: BTW, the penalties are actually WORSE than those with Full Plate.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 05:39 PM
Maybe. There's a spell similar to Iron body (Pretty sure it had Steel or Iron in the name) that confers constructlike immunities.

Quorothorn
2008-04-22, 05:39 PM
you also have the equivalent of Full-Plate penalties while under the effects of Iron Body, including the 40% or so Arcane Spell Failure. That spell is made of fail.

EDIT: Worse than fullplate apparently.

I was going to have an NPC sorc have that as one of his spells known...but after looking more closely at it, I decided that he'd pick Ghost Form instead.

If it was a Touch spell it'd be an awesome buff, but as a Personal spell...yeech.

Quorothorn
2008-04-22, 05:43 PM
Maybe. There's a spell similar to Iron body (Pretty sure it had Steel or Iron in the name) that confers constructlike immunities.

Well, doesn't look like it's on the SRD spell list.

Edit: Aargh, sorry about the double-post.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 05:46 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not there. The spell compendium is a safe bet, though.

Frosty
2008-04-22, 05:50 PM
I was going to have an NPC sorc have that as one of his spells known...but after looking more closely at it, I decided that he'd pick Ghost Form instead.

If it was a Touch spell it'd be an awesome buff, but as a Personal spell...yeech.

Umm...cast it on your familiar and it beat on things?

Quorothorn
2008-04-22, 05:50 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not there. The spell compendium is a safe bet, though.

Looking through it now...man, there are way too many spells here...ooh, Mass Awaken...

BRB.

Edit: Well, Favor of the Martyr does it: immunity to daze--and a whole lot of other effects. It's Pal4, though.

Edit#2:
Umm...cast it on your familiar and it beat on things?

THAT would be awesome: now the housecat can menace commoners of ALL levels! Though that particular sorc doesn't have a familiar, and given that most familiars are Dex-based (owl, etc), it wouldn't be particularly effective against things with CRs in the teens.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 05:55 PM
Frosty mentioned it, but I'm thinking of sorc/wiz spells.

You're right, there's a spell overdose there.

Quorothorn
2008-04-22, 06:05 PM
Frosty mentioned it, but I'm thinking of sorc/wiz spells.

You're right, there's a spell overdose there.

Well, there's Stone Body (Sor/Wiz6), which is basically Iron Body-lite. Body of War (Sor/Wiz7) turns you into a Warforged (disabling your spellcasting)...I dunno, it looks like any spell getting you that sort of resistance is going to impact your spellcasting.

Continuing down the list of Sor/Wiz Transmutations...

Edit: Elemental Body provides immunity to “poison, sleep, paralysis, and stunning”...don't see "daze" in there, though.

Edit#2: Fiendform (Sor/Wiz5). Any fiendish creature that Summon Monster I-IV can bring up gives immunity to daze? If not, I got nothing (that doesn't screw around with spellcasting that is).

Chronos
2008-04-22, 06:26 PM
Back to beguilers, their spellcasting is just fine. Yeah, having the whole list spontaneously is nice, but that's balanced out by the fact that most of the spells on their list are mechanically very similar (lots of will SOS, largely). What makes beguilers overbalanced (in my opinion, at least) is the fact that they can replace the rogue and still have their decent spellcasting abilities.

Someone already said that one nerf for the Beguiler is to replace them with rogues, and that's true. Another nerf would be to take away Trapfinding, and reduce them to 4 skill points per level. That way, they can still supplement their spells with skills, and can pinch-hit for a rogue if needed, but they don't completely replace the rogue.

Draz74
2008-04-22, 06:33 PM
Someone already said that one nerf for the Beguiler is to replace them with rogues, and that's true. Another nerf would be to take away Trapfinding, and reduce them to 4 skill points per level. That way, they can still supplement their spells with skills, and can pinch-hit for a rogue if needed, but they don't completely replace the rogue.

Seconded. Maybe even take a couple skills off of their list, although be careful which ones.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-22, 06:35 PM
Well, there's Stone Body (Sor/Wiz6), which is basically Iron Body-lite. Body of War (Sor/Wiz7) turns you into a Warforged (disabling your spellcasting)...I dunno, it looks like any spell getting you that sort of resistance is going to impact your spellcasting.



Stone body and Ironguard are nice. Ironguard blocks metal magic weapons.

Ellisthion
2008-04-22, 06:39 PM
What about the Divine feats? Some of them seem like they might be a bit too much, especially when stacked with a Cleric's already significant power.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-22, 07:07 PM
I'd like to jump in to defend the Mystic Swordsage for a moment. It's not broken unto itself, it's only broken when your selection of spells is. "Expeditious Retreat, Swift" as a Boost and "Shocking Grasp" as a Strike does not a broken character make. However, "Fly, Swift" as a Boost and "Shivering Touch, Lesser" as a Strike is not exactly fair play by any reasonable stretch of the term. Both sets are available at level 1 yet both are NOT broken. Like a gun, when used correctly, the class is not bad.

Eldariel
2008-04-22, 11:16 PM
What the hell... Artificer has just as good an access to Celerity-line spells as a Gish. And also full casting in all full casting classes. And the ability to go friggin' Machine Gun with any Wands. And the ability to apply free metamagic to spell triggers and completion items. No, don't compare Artificer to a Gish of any level; Artificer fights in the league of full casters.

Mystic Swordsage takes some work, but once you lay down the rules, it'll be enjoyable and functional class. And most definitely not broken. Also note that Wizards themselves stated that Gishes didn't have sufficient support in the core, which is why they've been printing a number of prestige classes so that a Gish doesn't have to lose caster progression by taking non-caster levels to be decent in combat. They're also fixing the problem in 4.0, but as it stands, Prestige Classes are the official fix to Gishes sucking, so the 10-class Gishes are designed by WoTC. Therefore you may as well treat them as core classes, since they would be ones if game rules allowed for random different BAB advancements and caster levels in the same class.

serow
2008-04-22, 11:38 PM
Though considered the weakest offering in PHB2, I like the Dragon Shaman, it suits my tastes somehow.

riddles
2008-04-23, 03:56 AM
What about the Divine feats? Some of them seem like they might be a bit too much, especially when stacked with a Cleric's already significant power.

divine feats are fuelled by turning. most of the divine feats give average bonuses that can be easily replicated by spells. the best one in phb2 is divine ward (thought this can only be with one person. works well in conjunction with a fighter). divine armour looks great at first but only lasts for one round.

the ones in CW are significantly better - but only for charisma heavy builds i.e. Paladins. for a paladin, divine might, divine shield and divine vigour are outstanding. for a martial cleric, who has proably dumped CHA for strength, only divine vigour is that good.

complete divine provides the most powerful divine feat - divine metamagic. it takes a lot of invest to make divine metamagic effective (it is best with persist and quicken), but is incredibly powerful. sacred healing from this book is also an outstanding feat.

it seems like divine feats were designed for paladins and clerics who couldn't effectivedly turn (there is a lot of argument that lots of optimisation fu is required to make a good turning build). it's only really divine metamagic that people have a problem with. if you're not using DMM, sacred healing is great for a cleric. other than that, most of them are "meh" unless you're a paladin.

weenie
2008-04-23, 04:25 AM
Shock trooper, PA, leap attack, two handed wielded weapon, and I'm doing more damage per swing, more effectively, all day long, need I keep talkin'?

Actually you do 6XBaB extra damage, and only when you charge. Without pounce that's not really effective.. Sure, yo get ONE awsome hit, but if it somehow doesn't drop your enemy you're in a bad position. Not to mention you are completeley vulnerable the next turn, and your DM will probably start throwing in some monsters with Elusive Target sooner or later..

Nebo_
2008-04-23, 04:46 AM
Actually you do 6XBaB extra damage, and only when you charge. Without pounce that's not really effective.. Sure, yo get ONE awsome hit, but if it somehow doesn't drop your enemy you're in a bad position. Not to mention you are completeley vulnerable the next turn, and your DM will probably start throwing in some monsters with Elusive Target sooner or later..

It's actually 4xBAB extra damage, you're doing the leap attack maths wrong. Sub in Quick Cast True Strike instead of Shocktrooper and you're no worse off when it comes to AC. And you've only spent two feats. For two more, you can have combat brute, too. Which works on a full attack, so if it doesn't go down in the first round, it sure as hell isn't surviving a second.

Kizara
2008-04-23, 04:49 AM
Back to beguilers, their spellcasting is just fine. Yeah, having the whole list spontaneously is nice, but that's balanced out by the fact that most of the spells on their list are mechanically very similar (lots of will SOS, largely). What makes beguilers overbalanced (in my opinion, at least) is the fact that they can replace the rogue and still have their decent spellcasting abilities.

Someone already said that one nerf for the Beguiler is to replace them with rogues, and that's true. Another nerf would be to take away Trapfinding, and reduce them to 4 skill points per level. That way, they can still supplement their spells with skills, and can pinch-hit for a rogue if needed, but they don't completely replace the rogue.

Thank you most kindly.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-23, 06:15 AM
It's actually 4xBAB extra damage, you're doing the leap attack maths wrong. Sub in Quick Cast True Strike instead of Shocktrooper and you're no worse off when it comes to AC. And you've only spent two feats. For two more, you can have combat brute, too. Which works on a full attack, so if it doesn't go down in the first round, it sure as hell isn't surviving a second.

Wait, even at 100%? That means X +X=2X

So if without Leap it is 3 x: than with Leap you deal 6 x: AS 3 +3=6.

its_all_ogre
2008-04-23, 07:55 AM
2 handed weapon -1 to hit +2 damage
leap attack +100%
+4 damage.

where is the +6 coming from? :smallconfused:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-23, 08:46 AM
Off topic:


And finally, sure, Incantatrix is one of the best three arcane caster prestige classes -- along with Shadowcraft Mage and, to a lesser extent, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil -- but the class has nothing on Planar Shepherd or any of the best three divine caster prestige classes (the others being Dweomerkeeper and Shadowcraft Mage).


Lolwut? Why does everyone fetishise Planar Shepherd so? Sure, it's bad, but there's so much worse out there.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-23, 08:59 AM
Off topic:



Lolwut? Why does everyone fetishise Planar Shepherd so? Sure, it's bad, but there's so much worse out there.I Wildshape. Into an Effreti. And Wish 3 times. Then I Wildshape into another one. Or I manifest a Planar Bubble that gives me 10x the number of actions. Oh, and I'm a level-20 druid, so while I do all of this, you are being eaten by a bear. Have fun.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-23, 09:17 AM
I Wildshape. Into an Effreti. And Wish 3 times. Then I Wildshape into another one. Or I manifest a Planar Bubble that gives me 10x the number of actions. Oh, and I'm a level-20 druid, so while I do all of this, you are being eaten by a bear. Have fun.

I'm a wizard. I have planar bubbles just as good as yours, as well as the precipitate complete breach ability to bring in versatile effects. Remember, by the way, that you can't have the 10x action bubble and be the efreeti; furthermore, said wizard will be able to gain a greater benefit from the bubble; since it's centred on the caster, an opponent will accelerate to 10x speed when in it, as you'll need to be to be if you want to fight.

Tren
2008-04-23, 10:52 AM
Wait, even at 100%? That means X +X=2X

So if without Leap it is 3 x: than with Leap you deal 6 x: AS 3 +3=6.

As per the errata, leap attack deals x4 your PA bonus, not x2 * x3

Frosty
2008-04-23, 11:04 AM
And how exactly do wizards get the bubble ability? The spell in the SpC with the same name doesn't do anything liek that.

Ossian
2008-04-23, 11:22 AM
I've been playing the old "Moonstone" these days (blasted! so difficult...), and it made me want to run a whole campaign based on the Knight base class. I found it funny and full of flavor, easy to play and made to build a lasting character.

Also, the Duskblade is neat. One of my best players has one (level 7) and he's just having tons of fun with it, while never getting to fear the groundhog-day syndrome. That might mean I'm a good GM at tailoring encounters, but I rather believe it's his PC being well done and well played.

O.

The_Snark
2008-04-23, 11:40 AM
I'm a wizard. I have planar bubbles just as good as yours, as well as the precipitate complete breach ability to bring in versatile effects. Remember, by the way, that you can't have the 10x action bubble and be the efreeti; furthermore, said wizard will be able to gain a greater benefit from the bubble; since it's centred on the caster, an opponent will accelerate to 10x speed when in it, as you'll need to be to be if you want to fight.

Except that the Planar Bubble spell duplicates the traits of your home plane. Not a plane of your choice. So no x10 free actions, and a wizard can't turn into an efreet—or rather, you can with Shapechange, but that spell won't give you spell-like abilities. You'll have to rely on summoning spells for your free wishes, at which point they are unlikely to be free.

Precipitate Breach is good, except... it has a 10-minute casting time, its area is random, you need to cast it twice in order to get any effect at all, and its effects are totally random. You have no control over which traits you're getting. It has no combat application thanks to that casting time, and given its random effects, it's not likely to be very good for setting up a battlefield beforehand.

And really, you don't invoke the bubble when enemies are inside it. You invoke it while enemies are outside the radius, and then make sure to stay a little out of reach—not a problem with druid battlefield control spells. Or with a readied action. That's like saying solid fog is a terrible spell because it hinders you if you put yourself in the area. Of course it's bad if you use it wrong, but all buff spells are terrible if you target opponents with them.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-23, 12:07 PM
Except that the Planar Bubble spell duplicates the traits of your home plane. Not a plane of your choice. So no x10 free actions, and a wizard can't turn into an efreet—or rather, you can with Shapechange, but that spell won't give you spell-like abilities. You'll have to rely on summoning spells for your free wishes, at which point they are unlikely to be free.

Except that a Wizard can use various methods to make himself a resident of the Plane he wants.


Precipitate Breach is good, except... it has a 10-minute casting time, its area is random, you need to cast it twice in order to get any effect at all, and its effects are totally random. You have no control over which traits you're getting. It has no combat application thanks to that casting time, and given its random effects, it's not likely to be very good for setting up a battlefield beforehand.

I'm betting there's a fun way to use Alacritous Cognition with that, I'll have to look up the spell.


And really, you don't invoke the bubble when enemies are inside it. You invoke it while enemies are outside the radius, and then make sure to stay a little out of reach—not a problem with druid battlefield control spells. Or with a readied action. That's like saying solid fog is a terrible spell because it hinders you if you put yourself in the area. Of course it's bad if you use it wrong, but all buff spells are terrible if you target opponents with them.

You also don't do anything when you are in the bubble. Because you have to concentrate on it as a standard action. So unless you take Extraordinary Concentration, it's only good as a Party buff or running away. (Or maybe if you could mirror the Astral and quicken all your spells.)

The bubble is good. Outsider SLAs are good. But a Wizard has access to any SLA you ever use from any Plane, and he can bubble any plane too. It's harder and more costly, but it's worth it if you need to beat a Planar Shepard, and it's not even needed against anyone else because he's pretty much an invulnerable death machine anyway.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-23, 12:45 PM
As per the errata, leap attack deals x4 your PA bonus, not x2 * x3

You really shoulda read the quote I was talking to: It was mentioning Combat Brute/other combos
At that point it is 100% of x3 (depending what you are using with PA such as Supeme PA or Combat Brute or other things).

The_Snark
2008-04-23, 02:45 PM
Except that a Wizard can use various methods to make himself a resident of the Plane he wants.

Really? Which ones? (I ask because I'm curious, not because I'm doubting; I don't play wizards very often, so I'm not familiar with a lot of their more obscure tricks.)


I'm betting there's a fun way to use Alacritous Cognition with that, I'll have to look up the spell.

Planar Handbook, but I don't really see that Alacritous Cogitation would help. (Is Cognition a different feat, or was that a typo?) Even if your DM lets you cast a 10-minute spell as a full-round action, you'd still need to cast the spell twice in order to get anything stronger than a mild alignment trait, it still produces totally random effects, and it also has an onset delay of 1d4 rounds.


You also don't do anything when you are in the bubble. Because you have to concentrate on it as a standard action. So unless you take Extraordinary Concentration, it's only good as a Party buff or running away. (Or maybe if you could mirror the Astral and quicken all your spells.)

It lasts 1d10 rounds after you stop concentrating, though... which gives you at least 10, up to a hundred effective rounds after you've stopped concentrating. It's like a twinned maximized Time Stop that affects your whole party... except that you can shoot spells out of it... and that's if you roll the worst possible result.

And while it's true that most spell-like abilities you could get are things a wizard could cast anyway, being able to wild shape into a new selection gives a druid several new arrays of options, available at a moment's notice. And let's not forget that this is on top of a druid's normal spellcasting and combat abilities... and it's all written into a single class, rather than being spread out across multiple splatbooks.

But anyway, we're a little off topic.