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Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-22, 10:13 AM
I was thinking about creating a Frenzied Berserker who uses whirling frenzy (UA, see here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedClasses.html), for instance) instead of rage.

Now, I imagine most rage feats would work with whirling frenzy without any real changes, and that whirling frenzy generally works for anything with the prerequisite of the rage ability, but would frenzy work concurrently with it?


A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

That's a tricky clause. Does it cover frenzy, or is it just supposed to stop you combining whirling frenzy with rage from some other source?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 10:42 AM
It's just a stopgap against taking one level of Barbarian and one level of Whirling Frenzy Barbarian + Extra Rage feat.

Note that at least Extra Rage, and hopefully Extend Range specifically state they work on Frenzy like abilities, so they would work on both your Frenzies.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-22, 12:35 PM
Yeah, it seems reasonable to assume that whirling frenzy works just like rage would, and just wouldn't work together with rage (or an alternative rage-type ability) from any source.

So how good is this sort of combination? Frenzy says the extra attack isn't cumulative with "haste or other effects" - does that include whirling frenzy? (Which is basically like flurry of blows. Is FoB cumulative with haste?)

Is the loss of a Con bonus a huge negative? Con modifier scales nicely with levels, but +2 AC is always a 10% increase in avoiding getting hit. It just seems like Frenzied Berserker is intended to take damage (combining with Shock Trooper etc.) and ignore it, rather than avoid it.

Chronos
2008-04-22, 02:17 PM
Is the loss of a Con bonus a huge negative?Temporary Con increases aren't actually all that useful, since you lose the HP again when your Con goes back down to normal. If an attack would have killed you without the bonus, then it'll still kill you when the bonus goes away. All it does is buy the cleric a few extra rounds to heal you, and the cleric might not want to get into touch range of a Frenzied Berserker until after the Frenzy wears off anyway.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-22, 02:26 PM
Good point. With deathless frenzy especially, the temporary hit points become entirely irrelevant.

Although I'm wondering... deathless frenzy doesn't say anything about preventing you from becoming staggered and unconscious when the nonlethal damage you're taking each round exceeds or equals your current hit points. Will a Frenzied Berserker really just keel over once their current hit points equal the nonlethal damage they've taken? Seems like it'd entirely negate the point of deathless frenzy - but on the other hand, it'd stop you from fighting until you're dead waiting to fall over.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 03:10 PM
Good point. With deathless frenzy especially, the temporary hit points become entirely irrelevant.

Although I'm wondering... deathless frenzy doesn't say anything about preventing you from becoming staggered and unconscious when the nonlethal damage you're taking each round exceeds or equals your current hit points. Will a Frenzied Berserker really just keel over once their current hit points equal the nonlethal damage they've taken? Seems like it'd entirely negate the point of deathless frenzy - but on the other hand, it'd stop you from fighting until you're dead waiting to fall over.

I think they get Diehard or a Diehard like ability at an earlier level.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-22, 04:17 PM
Yeah, they get Diehard as a bonus feat, but that doesn't help with nonlethal damage in any way, does it? It just means that when the frenzy ends, you're not bleeding out if you're between -1 and -9 hp.

I imagine the intention is that nonlethal damage won't knock out a frenzied Frenzied Berserker, though. The class just isn't that well written, I guess.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 04:23 PM
Yeah, they get Diehard as a bonus feat, but that doesn't help with nonlethal damage in any way, does it? It just means that when the frenzy ends, you're not bleeding out if you're between -1 and -9 hp.

I imagine the intention is that nonlethal damage won't knock out a frenzied Frenzied Berserker, though. The class just isn't that well written, I guess.

Diehard specifically allows you to continue taking actions as normal at 0 to -9