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Tombstone
2008-04-22, 01:33 PM
If my familiar is changed permanently to a Humanoid, is he no longer my
familiar??

PS: I did try the search feature, but had no luck.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-04-22, 01:44 PM
Well I think that even though it appears human(oid), it still has animalistic intelligence and thus should remain your familiar. What are using to make your familiar humanoid? I don't think baleful polymorph works that way

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-22, 01:51 PM
It doesn't; it turns the victim into a 1 HD animal, and the victim must make a Will save every 24 hours to avoid mentally becoming the animal.

Tombstone
2008-04-22, 02:02 PM
"What are using to make your familiar humanoid?" Balefulpolymorph.
I know the jist of "Alterself" in regards to a Familiar and it's type per say.
I also know that inregards to sharing spells and using the more powerful version "Polymorph", that the Familiar is now not limited to its size and type
in that regard, but when it moves beyond 5th of its master will revert back to it's true form, in my case my familiar is a Raven. Baleful Polymorph has permanent effects on the subject, which then made me ask, what happens now and has anyone else gone through a similar situation that they could share their view points on this.

Thansk in advanced.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-04-22, 02:03 PM
It doesn't; it turns the victim into a 1 HD animal, and the victim must make a Will save every 24 hours to avoid mentally becoming the animal.

I know, I was being subtle.

Edit:

"What are using to make your familiar humanoid?" Balefulpolymorph.
I know the jist of "Alterself" in regards to a Familiar and it's type per say.
I also know that inregards to sharing spells and using the more powerful version "Polymorph", that the Familiar is now not limited to its size and type
in that regard, but when it moves beyond 5th of its master will revert back to it's true form, in my case my familiar is a Raven. Baleful Polymorph has permanent effects on the subject, which then made me ask, what happens now and has anyone else gone through a similar situation that they could share their view points on this.

Thansk in advanced.

I think I see your mistake here, read this: spell discription (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)
and notice how it has nothing to do with this:spell discription (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)
Baleful Polymorph has nothing to do with polymorph, so polymorph can't be made permanent like that, problem solved I think.

Tombstone
2008-04-22, 02:14 PM
"Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac
It doesn't; it turns the victim into a 1 HD animal, and the victim must make a Will save every 24 hours to avoid mentally becoming the animal"

I see. And what of the 8th lvl version "Polymorph any object?"

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-22, 02:18 PM
Are you sure that you need to make a save every 24 hours? I thought you only needed to make one save.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-22, 02:51 PM
"Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac
It doesn't; it turns the victim into a 1 HD animal, and the victim must make a Will save every 24 hours to avoid mentally becoming the animal"

I see. And what of the 8th lvl version "Polymorph any object?"

Polymorph any object works except it changes mental scores. Which more or less might make the animal smarter or dumber dependin on its Int from Familiar benefits.

Burley
2008-04-22, 03:16 PM
Why would you want to do that anyways? By the time you're high enough level to turn your familiar into a humanoid, your familiar is so bloody cool that it'd be a waste.
Using Baleful Polymorph turns it into a 1 HD animal. So, using it on your familiar couldn't turn it into a humanoid, because humanoid does not equal animal. And, using that spell to change it into a different animal would, well, I guess it would revert your familiar back to 1 HD. And, since your familiar's HD are equal to your character level...you go back to 1st level. That was fun, eh? (That wouldn't happen. Don't argue with it. I know it's not possible.)

After looking over Polymorph Any Object, Yes, you could do that. It wouldn't be a good idea, though.
I could argue that you're a weasel familiar to a human would be: Same Kingdom (animal), same class (mammal) and same/lower intelligence (13int is higher than a common human)= +9, which would constitute as permanent.
I would rule that the intelligence would drop to 10 (or lower), and, since it is now a humanoid and no longer a magical beast, you have been stripped of your familiar, and you would suffer the possible 200xp penalty, lose all bonuses granted by the familiar, and turned your familiar into a less intelligent, clumsy and, probably, ugly human. That last bit would count as intentionally ruining the life of a companion, and would cause your alignment to change to Chaotic Evil. Also, your familiar took levels in paladin, while you were sleeping, and he Smote you.

Tombstone
2008-04-22, 04:03 PM
"I would rule that the intelligence would drop to 10 (or lower), and, since it is now a humanoid and no longer a magical beast, you have been stripped of your familiar, and you would suffer the possible 200xp penalty, lose all bonuses granted by the familiar, and turned your familiar into a less intelligent, clumsy and, probably, ugly human."

Your statement/answer is incorrect. A Familiar changing it's form from Magical beast to another type does not bar it from being a familiar.

"For example, a cat familiar is a magical beast; when it shares an alter self spell, it assumes the form of an animal, such as a dog, a bird or a bat, not the form of a magical beast."

InkEyes
2008-04-22, 04:51 PM
"I would rule that the intelligence would drop to 10 (or lower), and, since it is now a humanoid and no longer a magical beast, you have been stripped of your familiar, and you would suffer the possible 200xp penalty, lose all bonuses granted by the familiar, and turned your familiar into a less intelligent, clumsy and, probably, ugly human."

Your statement/answer is incorrect. A Familiar changing it's form from Magical beast to another type does not bar it from being a familiar.

"For example, a cat familiar is a magical beast; when it shares an alter self spell, it assumes the form of an animal, such as a dog, a bird or a bat, not the form of a magical beast."

The optimization maniacs at Wizards (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=4821520&postcount=55) say that rule is nonsense. The sage advice isn't RAW anyway, that's why it's only called advice, not errata. Familiars are magical beasts and should only be able to transform into magical beasts (perhaps with the augmented animal subtype). If they lose magical beast type, I'd say any benefits they get from it (like being a familiar) would be lost.

Tombstone
2008-04-22, 07:10 PM
"The optimization maniacs at Wizards say that rule is nonsense. The sage advice isn't RAW anyway, that's why it's only called advice, not errata. Familiars are magical beasts and should only be able to transform into magical beasts (perhaps with the augmented animal subtype)."

Thank you for your response. The reason im extremely hung up on this topic is because I'd read this statement regarding the Rules of "Polymorph" at the Wizards website:
"Polymorphing is just one of a set of related magical effects in the D&D game in which the subject creature assumes a new physical form while retaining its essential identity and abilities."
This to me meant regardless of it's new form as long as my Familiar was still near under/polymorph it still functioned as above.

"If they lose magical beast type, I'd say any benefits they get from it (like being a familiar) would be lost."

Then its safe to say then by your ruling that if my Familiar wanted to imitate me then without losing it's Familiar status I can simply have it Change into an "Aranea." I guess this will have to suffice.

InkEyes
2008-04-22, 11:27 PM
"The optimization maniacs at Wizards say that rule is nonsense. The sage advice isn't RAW anyway, that's why it's only called advice, not errata. Familiars are magical beasts and should only be able to transform into magical beasts (perhaps with the augmented animal subtype)."

Thank you for your response. The reason im extremely hung up on this topic is because I'd read this statement regarding the Rules of "Polymorph" at the Wizards website:
"Polymorphing is just one of a set of related magical effects in the D&D game in which the subject creature assumes a new physical form while retaining its essential identity and abilities."
This to me meant regardless of it's new form as long as my Familiar was still near under/polymorph it still functioned as above.

"If they lose magical beast type, I'd say any benefits they get from it (like being a familiar) would be lost."

Then its safe to say then by your ruling that if my Familiar wanted to imitate me then without losing it's Familiar status I can simply have it Change into an "Aranea." I guess this will have to suffice.

Remember that most familiars are tiny or diminutive. They can only change into creatures one size category larger than their normal one. Your familiar would need to be at least small sized to alter self into an aranea (medium size). The same thread on wizards (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246) recommends Cockatrice, Darkmantle, Shocker Lizard, and Stirge as alternate forms for your familiar.

Aquillion
2008-04-22, 11:39 PM
I would rule that the intelligence would drop to 10 (or lower), and, since it is now a humanoid and no longer a magical beast, you have been stripped of your familiar, and you would suffer the possible 200xp penalty, lose all bonuses granted by the familiar, and turned your familiar into a less intelligent, clumsy and, probably, ugly human.While you're free to invent whatever rules you want to smack down a player you feel is getting out of line, I should point out that that definitely isn't in the RAW:

If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount...
I think it is quite a stretch to call this being 'dismissed', and it certainly isn't death. You might argue that it loses its familiar bonuses (although even that is quite a stretch), but there's certainly nothing in the rules that would even slightly hint at penalizing a caster who polymorphs their familiar. In fact, a logical extension of the RAW arguments I'm seeing here (it loses its familar-ness and all associated rules, without having died or being dismissed) would let a familiar polymorph their familiar, then kill it without penalty.

A more logical solution, though, comes from this: The wording that "a familiar is a magical beast" doesn't contain anything limiting the forms a familar can be changed into. If you insist on arguing that that state can't be changed by polymorph etc, the only logical conclusion is that a polymorphed familiar counts as both a magical beast and whatever type you polymorph it into, retaining the benefits of both. Though most of its mechanical abilities are derived from the new class (since the polymorph line explictly changes them), its familiar abilities don't get lost.

Tombstone
2008-04-23, 06:48 AM
Remember that most familiars are tiny or diminutive. They can only change into creatures one size category larger than their normal one. Your familiar would need to be at least small sized to alter self into an aranea (medium size). The same thread on wizards (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=176246) recommends Cockatrice, Darkmantle, Shocker Lizard, and Stirge as alternate forms for your familiar.
I thought that was the limitation of "Alter self" and not the spell Polymorph.
Under the Poly rules at Wizards it states the following:
* The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal.
The kind of creature you choose for the assumed form determines the size.

Tombstone
2008-04-23, 07:06 AM
A more logical solution, though, comes from this: The wording that "a familiar is a magical beast" doesn't contain anything limiting the forms a familar can be changed into. If you insist on arguing that that state can't be changed by polymorph etc, the only logical conclusion is that a polymorphed familiar counts as both a magical beast and whatever type you polymorph it into, retaining the benefits of both. Though most of its mechanical abilities are derived from the new class (since the polymorph line explictly changes them), its familiar abilities don't get lost.

Agreed and exactly my point. The wording is what gets me. My feeling is that regardless of it now being a magical beast from a normal unaltered animal, I felt it was the magical link & bond created after it was summoned that suddenly made it apart of you.
In the end what I was trying to do this weekend was pull a small prank on some old adventuring friends, coming together for the first time in 5 years (in game). I was going to wait for them in my keep only I was going to be Polymorhed into what looked like my Raven and my Raven would be sitting there looking like me. Of course they wouldve caught on after talking to my Raven for a short period, but none the less i thought it wouldve been amusing.

InkEyes
2008-04-23, 08:32 AM
Sorry, I thought since you were going with another magical beast, you were using alter self. It's also important to note that you don't gain any supernatural abilities of the new form (unless you use shapechange) this would include the ability to shapeshift like an aranea. Polymorph would be fully capable of transforming your familiar into a human, and since it doesn't change your base type, your familiar would still be a magical beast.

Skaven
2008-04-23, 11:25 AM
Are you sure that you need to make a save every 24 hours? I thought you only needed to make one save.

It is only one save. The spell description reads 'after spending 24 consecutive hours in the form'.

It says nothing about 'every 24 consecutive hours' and makes no mention of repeating the save.

Tombstone
2008-04-23, 10:35 PM
Sorry, I thought since you were going with another magical beast, you were using alter self. It's also important to note that you don't gain any supernatural abilities of the new form (unless you use shapechange) this would include the ability to shapeshift like an aranea. Polymorph would be fully capable of transforming your familiar into a human, and since it doesn't change your base type, your familiar would still be a magical beast.
Thank you InkEyes. I'd forgotten about the supernatural not being included. But i am pleased to know that others feel that i can pull this prank off. My only fear is that they not come into the room with something my familiar would find distracting, i.e., vermin or bugs my familiar would find want to immediatly eat even though he looks like my human form. LOL! I doubt this would happen.
Thanks for the input.

~Tombstone