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View Full Version : Our group Munchkin's playing a Synad Artificer... what should I watch out for?



Runa
2008-04-22, 03:28 PM
DMing my first-ever campaign, in Eberron, and all so far seems to be going pretty well... but I did have a concern about one of our group members. Why? 'Cause he's proven to be a bit of a metagaming, rule-exploiting munchkin in just about every campaign we've ever done together. We still love 'im... sort of. At any rate, he's a friend out-of-D&D, so we tolerate it (mostly, kind of - well, "deal with it" is a better way of putting it, actually...).

In any case, he's playing a Synad Artificer (which is a psionic race, coincidentally). I've already seen him unexpectedly light his sword on fire... at level one. So yeah. It was OK at the time, but now I'm concerned I won't be able to anticipate all the things he might start doing.

They've gotten to level 2 now, and I could use a good idea of what to expect him to pull. If anyone here has any advice, I'd really, really appreciate it!

-Runa

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-22, 03:34 PM
Artificers eventually gain the abilty to apply metamagic to spell trigger items. It uses up extra charges, but it means he'll be doing far more damage than anyone else if he feels like it.

And of course, the ability to make an item of any spell whatsoever.

SilverClawShift
2008-04-22, 03:55 PM
I could use a good idea of what to expect him to pull.

He's an artificer. By the rules, he can pull anything and everything. He has access to every single spell in the game, by crafting items that use those spells (scrolls, wands, potions). He can toss out fireballs, heal the other players, go invisible and cast knock, and throw down enough walls of force to shape the battlefield into anything he wants.

As for you. You either need to be on your toes to keep him challenged (that does NOT mean destroy his items. That's not fun.), and therefor keep the rest of the group challenged. The better you know the rules, the better off you'll be. Know what kind of magic or creature counters other magic. Be ready to break out odd combos for attacks and hit him with creatures and events he might not have been able to predict.
You could also consider sitting down with him one on one, and telling him outright that you know an artificer has the potential to break your game wide open, which won't be fun for anyone but him. In the interest of group activity, see if he'll work with you on limiting the sheer number of spells he has access to (making him find spells in the world before he learns to use them (i.e. asking you if he can shop for them, find them as loot, or what have you). Or just asking him to try not to dominate the battlefield so the other players have fun too.

Really, it's a group activity. Just make sure he knows that and isn't trying to ruin your game, or steal fun from the other players.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 04:03 PM
Silver got it right. Letting a munchkin play an artificer is like handing a neanderthal a foolproof nuclear bomb bazooka. No one would like that, same with the artificer.

RukiTanuki
2008-04-22, 04:19 PM
Picture a PC switching every party member's weapon to Bane for exactly what they're killing at that moment. Picture the PC using spells the Wizard won't know for two more levels. Picture unused magic items getting broken down and reassembled into the most useful items the PC can find, without the PC losing a single point of XP.

Artificer is the hacker of D&D. :)

If you have an artificer in the party, particularly one well-run, then pretend you're a supervillain and the Justice League has Batman in tow. Assume the group will come charging in with the exact set of abilities that would be most likely to defeat you.

This can work in your favor. You can go "all shields to front" and focus high-end enemy defenses on exactly the walls you expect your player to exploit. Metaphorically, put the big red bullseye on the one spot on your armor that's most reinforced. If he throws out Bane, start disguising as different creature types. Opponents who have faced adventurers before are apt to know the most common tactics.

BRC
2008-04-22, 04:25 PM
My advice, get a large, heavy stick. Keep it in plain sight and within easy reach, don't mention it's there, but make sure that your muchkin notices it.

ImperiousLeader
2008-04-22, 04:32 PM
I'm curious why he's a Synad. Most likely, he's going to use the fact that his type is "Aberration" to his advantage. I'd expect some Alter Self shenanigans very shortly.

greenknight
2008-04-22, 07:48 PM
There's an unofficial artificer's handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=520855) that you should read through carefully. That deals with most of the stunts your munchkin Artificer can perform, including low cost crafting of magical items and how an Artificer can cause ridiculous levels of damage with wands. The advice is a little out of date since powergamed Artificers will now use a Belt of Battle (Magic Item Compendium) and a Rod of Many Wands (Complete Mage) to do even more damage while requiring fewer Feats. I strongly recommend that you restrict the Metamagic Spell abilities of the Artificer to just one metamagic effect per usage rather than allowing multiple metamagic effects, although even that won't stop the Artificer from dealing massive amounts of damage if that's what the player wants.

Your Artificer might also play around with enhancing skills. The obvious infusion to watch out for is Skill Enhancement, which becomes considerably more powerful once the Item Alteration infusion becomes available. And keep in mind that Item Alteration works with just about anything, so your Artificer might use an Armor Enhancement infusion to provide a Greater Shadow and Greater Silent Moves enhancement, and then Item Alteration to double or triple those bonuses in order to make the party scout practically undetectable. In short, past a certain point you can pretty much guarantee the party will have enormous boosts (in the range of +40 or higher) to any skill they need available to them.

Wolfwood2
2008-04-22, 09:49 PM
Don't let him tell you that those formulas at the back of the DMG are magic item creation rules. They are not. They are guidelines. Guidelines. If you think something is underpriced for what it does, up the price.

Also, just because a spell exists in a splatbook does not mean it exists in your campaign. If he wants to pull a spell from outside the player's handbook (or the Eberron campaign setting), he should approve it with you first. Preferably before the game.

Keep that in mind and you'll be fine.

Kol Korran
2008-04-23, 03:45 PM
hhhmmmm, the artificer is indeed one of the most broken classes out there, as it is, and if the DM doesn't care much about time (will get to that soon enough). the most importent thing is to talk to the player, as silver mentioned. but here are some other pieces of advice, which may or may not fit your game and style:

1- the artificer can create items for which his caster level is 2 levels higher. this means fireballs, fly, haste at level 3, polymorph and stone skin at level 5. raise dead, teleport and so on at level 7... he basicaly gains tools far ahead of his/her level of power, which seriously unbalances encounters. i personally houserule tthat this feature doesn't apply in my campaigns, but alternetavely, you can rule that it cost the artificer double (or another multiplier) of either time, XP, gold, or wahtever, to make these items. the cost should be significant if you allow it.

2- the main problem with characers focused on item crafting (as is the artificer, but also various batman wizards, with a scroll or other gizmo for any instance), is that soon enough, they carrry such a load of "tricks" up their sleeves/ bag of holding/ HHH, they make any obstacles, problems, or surprises fairly, well, ineffective... this however, stems from the low cost, and low control, DMs assign to the crafting process... here are a few suggestions:

Time: many DM's don't realy keep track on time. especially between adventures... but if you keep a campaign that has pace, where adverseries, events and other stuff keep taking place, and when necessity may call the party to action sooner than later, then time matters. and more importently- how you spend it matters! if the party is in a city under siege, not knowing when the next attack is going to come, than the artificer will be very carefull at which things he'll craft. what will they realy need? keep the time pressure, in and out of campaigns constant, even with jsut reminders of other world events. usually when i run things, the party can ave some "serious down time" only after achieving a major achievment, and they usually have other things to deal with as well at this time... the idea is not to incapacitate the item creation process, but make it interesting, make it a choice between future adventuring resources... make time itself the resource (my party once risked life and limb to achieve some goal sooner, so they will have more time to prepare for a further challange ahead! the time itself was a hgue reward! it was also quite fun and satisfying...
Place: i don't have the DM with me, but if i'm not mistaken you need a good working place, a labaratory of a sort to work. the artificer shouldn't be able to make items on the fly in mid adventure, and neither is it likely that s/he'll have easy acces to a labaratory in his/ her travels. unless some special occasion happens (such as the city under siege above, or holing up in a wrecked wizards lab in a ruined city), the artificer shouldn't have access to all of that. in most cases, crafting items could only happen between adventures (though that might not be possible as well, due to constraints). one more thing about this: when my adventurers build a shop/ tavern/ lab/ whatever, i devise a small chart detailing possible occurances to their place, both good and bad (unexpected shipment, better reputation, robbery, and more), that may happen when they aren't there. some measures they take may lessen the chances of certain events, increase others, or change the outcomesomewhat (mundaen security may lessen chances of breaking, magical ones may decide what might be robbed, and so on). do that with the artificer's lab, just to keep it in his/her mind. the dafault by the way is "nothing happens", and i usually let the players roll the dice when they have the opportunity to check on what happens.
XP: this is another way to control production cost, but might get your players all riled up. i have never used the following alteration, but it might suit serious munchkins- increase the XP cost, to either a tenth, a fifth or a quarter of the base value (doubling or quadrupoling the cost). this should lower "mass production" and make each produced item count, not just be a spare... this works well with batmans, but i'd suggest that you let the artificer use the DM rules when using his/her own artificer reserve. this gives it a few "free items", and the rest are costly


3- a different method to control the overfluence of magical items, is again a house rule which you may or may not find appropriate. i used it once, and though some palyers grumbled (especially the wizard, we didn't have an artificer), they actually said it added to the experience (even the wizard). check with your players first though...

basically, each character must "attune" items to itself. and there is a limit to the number of magic items. (1 or 2 items per level, perhaps a bonus for crafting feats, perhaps a bonus fequel to UMD/5...) this includes even scrolls, potions, and so on! soon, the wizards carry only the most cruical scrolls, the fighter only the most importent armament, and afew choice potion. as levels go up wands, and finally staffs realy are usefull (instead of just being multiples of scrolls), and so on. the general affect is- take only what is importent, and plan carefully!

a caster may take many scrolls in his HHH/ Bag of holding, but most of these may be not attuned. if he has reason to believe there might be a threat, he might take a day or two (i usually ruled 1 day per 2 CL of the object) to attune it to itself. but it may also need to "un attune" other objects. this keeps the game interesting, about choices, and not just stackign up equipment, especially "if ever, ever we might need it" scrolls and such.

4- one last thing: over soem of the other threads and posts concernign artificer, soem refer to the "dedicated wright in a portable hole trick" this means you take a dedicated wright (one of the construct the artificer can create, see the end of the ECS), invest in him the Xp, put the lab material and creation materials (essentially the gold) into a portable hole, put it inside it, and let it work while you adventure...

my thoughts about this were always- "what the ****?" a lab demands a nice place to build, it needs to be comfy and organized, not just piled up inside a 6ft base, 10 ft tall cylindar tube of extradimensional place! sure, thw wright needs not to breat, and he has darkvision, but he also needs reasonable working place, access to it's crafting materials (you try differentiating between two vials of liquid when there is no color, you can't smell, and you can't read the writing), and so on! it's not an easy bake oven! in short- i don't allow it, i think most DMs who'd think about it for more than a few seconds won't allow it.

putting the wright back in your lab in whatever base of operations you may have is fine, and it makes sense. that's what it's there for... (i rule the wright won't freak out due to distance from it's creator, as long as it's actions are confined to the work place) however, as i detailed in the "place" section- the place might be burglarized, and you realy don't want to suddenly suffer 2d10 damage when allready wounded, would you? it sure is a benefit, but it's also a risk (a very low probability for that, but still a probability).

that's all i got. hope it will help. but as i said i nthe beginning- talk to your player first, it usually helps.
Kol

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-23, 04:30 PM
I'd beg to differ from the altogether negative picture of artificers. I'm playing one in these forums atm, and it is so fun, but not unbalanced at all. While they are theoretically the most powerful class, they can get along quite well in a cleric/utility slot.

Stuff to watch out for:


Components - while personal weapon augmentation isn't much, the components for the other stuff (like giving your party bane weapons) are expensive and particular. Keep this in mind, and don't let him off the hook on this.
Craft reserve - this empties at each level. He can't save it up for big items. Also, awarding everyone the same amount of XP means he can't cruise along getting more a level behind.
Metamagic stacking - the designers intended metamagic spell completion and trigger to only allow one metamagic to be added on (metamagic item was seen as OK, given application time). Be careful with admixture+twin, etc., if you don't trust him.

Cuddly
2008-04-24, 12:35 AM
I'd beg to differ from the altogether negative picture of artificers. I'm playing one in these forums atm, and it is so fun, but not unbalanced at all. While they are theoretically the most powerful class, they can get along quite well in a cleric/utility slot.

They're very easy to break, and given that this is a known munchkin, the artificer is going to be totally imba.

Vael Nir
2008-04-24, 06:22 AM
I second the time thing... my DM goes the other way. We've saved the world, saved the kingdom from civil war two days later... and my Wizard hasn't been able to copy spells into his spellbook yet, due to lack of time. I'm also beginning to wonder if taking craft wondrous item was a mistake. :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-24, 07:33 AM
Ask him to let you retrain. Seriously, that's just cruel.

Grynning
2008-04-24, 07:56 AM
Second the "Time" and "Place" sections of Kol Korran's post. I just recently got done playing an artificer, and we had one in our party in another game, and I really don't consider them game-breaking at all. Yes, they do have access to a LOT of spells. But, first of all, you can't just use any spell you want, you have to make a bunch of UMD checks then craft an item or at least make a scroll or potion, which takes at least one whole day. If you actually keep a sensible flow of time in adventure, the Artificer will maybe only have time to make one or two things in a given arc, and most of the things they can make at lower levels aren't going to be particularly powerful. Sure, making their own items means they will pull out a "batman" gadget to save the day sometimes, but that's what they're SUPPOSED TO DO. It's part of the fun of playing the class.

Infusions aren't that bad either, mainly because you don't get that many a day, and most of them are not "Combat Magic." Yes, you can put the Bane quality of the monster you're fighting on someone's weapon. But if you read the infusion, the one's that add abilities to weapons only affect one weapon at a time, only last a few hours, and can't be cast in combat (I think they take at least one minute to cast, IIRC, away from book). So unless you know exactly what you'll be fighting at any given time, the weapon enhancements generally get used on something more generic.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're afraid of something breaking your game, READ IT. Read it over and over until you understand it completely, and then make sure the player follows the exact rules of the class. Most of the time when I hear a DM who's upset about a player breaking the game, it's because they aren't familiar with the player's race/class/item/spell and are letting the player say "oh it does this, I swear," and after a few posts on a thread it's clear that all they needed to do was read the race/class/item/spell to realize that it doesn't work the way the player would like it to. Remember it's part of the DM's job to be a bit of a rules lawyer, to prevent situations like that.

So, read the Artificer, read Use Magic Device, then read them again, very carefully. Let the guy play, but if he does anything that dings the "wait a minute, that's not how I read it..." bell in your head, double check it to prevent any abuse.

sikyon
2008-04-24, 08:02 AM
my thoughts about this were always- "what the ****?" a lab demands a nice place to build, it needs to be comfy and organized, not just piled up inside a 6ft base, 10 ft tall cylindar tube of extradimensional place! sure, thw wright needs not to breat, and he has darkvision, but he also needs reasonable working place, access to it's crafting materials (you try differentiating between two vials of liquid when there is no color, you can't smell, and you can't read the writing), and so on! it's not an easy bake oven! in short- i don't allow it, i think most DMs who'd think about it for more than a few seconds won't allow it.

putting the wright back in your lab in whatever base of operations you may have is fine, and it makes sense. that's what it's there for... (i rule the wright won't freak out due to distance from it's creator, as long as it's actions are confined to the work place) however, as i detailed in the "place" section- the place might be burglarized, and you realy don't want to suddenly suffer 2d10 damage when allready wounded, would you? it sure is a benefit, but it's also a risk (a very low probability for that, but still a probability).

that's all i got. hope it will help. but as i said i nthe beginning- talk to your player first, it usually helps.
Kol

Most rationales you can come up with for why a portable hole homunculus strategy doesn't work can probably be overcome with ingeniuity. It's 10ft deep by 12 feet diameter. For example, needs a source of light (which you do as they have low-light vision, not darkvision)? A simple auto-reset trap of light or a permenancy light will do it. The size of the hole isn't an issue, either. The homunculus is only 1-2ft in size. I'm around 5'6". The portable hole would be like a 30ft tall 36ft wide round room to me. That's easily enough space.

You're going to have to outright houserule this if you want to ban it.