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View Full Version : Is Archmage worth it for Beguilers?



Frosty
2008-04-22, 05:44 PM
Spell Focus is typically a decent feat choice for Beguilers, who relies in Save-or-Sucks a lot, so really the only crappy feat a Beguiler has to take to enter Archmage is SF (Spellcraft). Do you guys think it's worth it for a Beguiler to dip a few levels into Archmage? Boosting CL is always good. Getting Time Stop as a SLA is nice if not using spellpoint system. If you use Advanced Learning to learn Otto's Irresistable Dance, you can Arcane Reach and no-save-and-die from range.

I'm not sure what else to do with Archmage however. Is it worth it to take Archmage, or should I just go Beguiler 19/Mindbender 1? I feel like that the Beguiler is one of those classes that does very well without multiclassing.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-22, 05:47 PM
Yeah, Beguiler is good alone, but Archmage empowers ANY class that gets 9th level spells, if only for SLA.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-22, 05:53 PM
Edit: Really nice with the Arcane Disciple feat Luck for taking No Experience point Miracle 2/Day for spell duplication as a SLA regardless of how the feat is handled in a campaign.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-22, 05:54 PM
Can a beguiler meet the multiple school casting requirements? I don't have PHBII handy so I can't check it out now but do they get five different spells at a high enough level?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-22, 05:56 PM
If you are going to take Archmage you better take Mindbender too.

If you aren't going to take Archmage that Mindbender level had better have been level 6.

Archmage is a viable choice. So is Beguiler. Take your pick really.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-22, 05:59 PM
Can a beguiler meet the multiple school casting requirements? I don't have PHBII handy so I can't check it out now but do they get five different spells at a high enough level?

Yes they qualify with their 5th level spell list.

Dr Bwaa
2008-04-22, 06:03 PM
Can a beguiler meet the multiple school casting requirements? I don't have PHBII handy so I can't check it out now but do they get five different spells at a high enough level?

As CASTLEMIKE just said, yes. Their 5th-level spell list includes
Abj: (break enchantment)
Ench: (various)
Illus: (various)
Evoc: (Sending)
Trans: (Swift Etherealness)

Frosty
2008-04-22, 06:07 PM
If you are going to take Archmage you better take Mindbender too.

If you aren't going to take Archmage that Mindbender level had better have been level 6.

Archmage is a viable choice. So is Beguiler. Take your pick really.

Yeah. I took mindbender level 6 to delay advanced learning. My DM is letting me learn any wizard spell actually ala Eccletic Learning of Warmage. I'm thinking of learning Celerity so I can do the whole Celerity -> Timestop combo.

And yeah, Beguilers have spells from enough schools. They even have a 5th level Evocation spell. Sending is the spell I believe. So, Sending (Evocation), Greater Dispel Magic (abjuration), Swift Etherealness (I think is transmutation?), and then take your pick for Illusion and Enchantment.

JaxGaret
2008-04-22, 11:34 PM
Completely off-topic, but I believe that Warmages qualify for Archmage with their base spell list as well.

If Dread Necros also qualify from their base spell list (they probably do), it was probably an intentional design decision on the part of WotC, since in both the Beguiler and Warmage's case, a couple of the schools are represented by only a single or handful of spells.

Frosty
2008-04-23, 01:53 AM
Really nice with the Arcane Dispcipline feat Luck for taking No Experience point Miracle 2/Day for spell duplication as a SLA regardless of how the feat is handled in a campaign.

Grammar please? I think you are saying that taking the Arcane Disciple feat and choosing the Luck domain is good because you get Miracle as a 9th level spell?

I am not sure if it's worth it, because you need 19 wisdom to be to get the benefit of Miracle iirc due to how Arcane Disciple works.

Draz74
2008-04-23, 02:12 AM
I am not sure if it's worth it, because you need 19 wisdom to be to get the benefit of Miracle iirc due to how Arcane Disciple works.

Not too difficult, at high levels, just by buying some WIS-boost equipment.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-23, 02:26 AM
I am not sure if it's worth it, because you need 19 wisdom to be to get the benefit of Miracle iirc due to how Arcane Disciple works.

Base 8 only requires a book and amulet. At Base 13, you only need the amulet. Suffice to say, it's exceptionally easy.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-23, 02:28 AM
If Dread Necros also qualify from their base spell list (they probably do), it was probably an intentional design decision on the part of WotC, since in both the Beguiler and Warmage's case, a couple of the schools are represented by only a single or handful of spells.

Dread Necro's qualify off of just their first and second level spells. As far as schools, go, they aren't as themed as the other two because the undead/necromancy stuff is spread around.

They have Conjuration for summoning undead, abjurations that protect against undead or that necro's need to not get killed in the street, the various Necro stuff, and a bunch of evocation/enchantment stuff based on creating darkness/fear ect.


Base 8 only requires a book and amulet. At Base 13, you only need the amulet. Suffice to say, it's exceptionally easy.

Right and you are an idiot to waste your money on a book for that, and in PB it's not worth a 13. Rolling it's only worth a 13 if you have at least 3 higher rolls, probably four.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-23, 02:53 AM
I am not sure if it's worth it, because you need 19 wisdom to be to get the benefit of Miracle iirc due to how Arcane Disciple works.

Depends on the game but Two No Experience Miracles a day for spell duplication or a Miracle as a SLA is awfully strong in most games particularly for a Beguiler spell caster.

Like most options in game it depends on other factors. Doable in 25 point or greater game for generating a 13 Wisdom so your PC can purchase a +6 Periapt of Wisdom for 36,000 gp market which you can resell for 50% after you no longer require it in game if the PC does not receive the bonus domain spell and must continue to cast the spell based on wisdom if can be nice for that 3rd daily Miracle which could be a "Greater Miracle" in a real pinch.

Frosty
2008-04-23, 10:54 AM
It also depends on how Miracle is handled by the DM. Some DMs may think that having Miracle as a SLA is abusive or something.