Wanted the thoughts of the Playground on this...

[Stormthorn]

No death or explicit content takes place below, but the younger readers probably couldnt help me and dont need to be exposed to the Drama.


Ok, so lets say we have a girl named "Laura". And also a guy named "Mike". Laura and Mike have been together for awhile now. Laura is a nice girl but abit controling and emotional. Her and mike get into a big fight. After a few days things seem cool. Then after a week they get into another big fight. The aftermath of this second fight causes Mike to OD on painkillers and he is currently recovering in the hospital.

How might you go about helping these two people? Specificly the girl above Mike.

[BillsBioBlog]

No death or explicit content takes place below, but the younger readers probably couldnt help me and dont need to be exposed to the Drama.


Ok, so lets say we have a girl named "Laura". And also a guy named "Mike". Laura and Mike have been together for awhile now. Laura is a nice girl but abit controling and emotional. Her and mike get into a big fight. After a few days things seem cool. Then after a week they get into another big fight. The aftermath of this second fight causes Mike to OD on painkillers and he is currently recovering in the hospital.

How might you go about helping these two people? Specificly the girl above Mike.

Why would you want to help the girl above mike when Mike's the one that OD'd?

[Darius Midnite]

Well, the situation is tough on both parts. On Mike because he OD'ed and on Laura because she part way blames herself for the incident (Guessing here). It's important that Laura doesn't take responsibility for Mikes actions, of course it is unlucky, but she could never have know how he would react (Unless he mentioned before.) But all this is irrelevant if that is not how she feels. So, how does she feel?

[Stormthorn]

So, how does she feel?

Lets say the most information i can get on this was "like crap".

She wants to be with him enough to give up something...very special.

Oh, and when replying remember that Mike is outside your ability to exert influence on. Thats why the girl comes first.

[valadil]

It doesn't matter what the cause is. Mike ODed on painkillers. That is not a normal or appropriate reaction to much of anything. The fight may have triggered it, but he's definitely got other issues. In my non expert opinion, I say therapy.

Hopefully Laura can be supportive of that without demanding he go to therapy. If he goes just because she tells him to, he won't get anything out of it. For therapy to be useful, you have to make the decision to go on your own. If Laura can't be supportive of that, she has no right being in a relationship.

[Stormthorn]

It doesn't matter what the cause is. Mike ODed on painkillers. That is not a normal or appropriate reaction to much of anything. The fight may have triggered it, but he's definitely got other issues. In my non expert opinion, I say therapy.

Hopefully Laura can be supportive of that without demanding he go to therapy. If he goes just because she tells him to, he won't get anything out of it. For therapy to be useful, you have to make the decision to go on your own. If Laura can't be supportive of that, she has no right being in a relationship.

Laura took a lot of painkillers once too, to spite her parents. Ended up in the hospital for awhile. The intent was to cause worry, not to commit suicide, in her case at least.

Laura might not be a very big fan of therapy. Perhaps relating to what i said above.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Hmm. IMO, both of them could use some therapy. Or a friend who listens well. *hugs*

[thubby]

Hmm. IMO, both of them could use some therapy. Or a friend who listens well. *hugs*

this X10

what, you want more?

[Noir-Neko]

The following is probably best considered to be cold hearted and very unromantic, however baised in experience gathered over the years and is only my opinion.

Quite frankly, the guy who OD'd is scum and seems to me to be trying to get the girl's attention and make her pity him. If the two of them have these kinds of issues and if the guy in this situation is so selfish as to do somthing so foolish and self serving, I say leave him in the mud and do your best to comfort the girl and get her to move on. Again, I think the guy is Scum. To put it politely anyway.

[Cobra_Ikari]

The following is probably best considered to be cold hearted and very unromantic, however baised in experience gathered over the years and is only my opinion.

Quite frankly, the guy who OD'd is scum and seems to me to be trying to get the girl's attention and make her pity him. If the two of them have these kinds of issues and if the guy in this situation is so selfish as to do somthing so foolish and self serving, I say leave him in the mud and do your best to comfort the girl and get her to move on. Again, I think the guy is Scum. To put it politely anyway.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him scum...but they definitely shouldn't be together, IMO.

[Stormthorn]

hmm...the catboy tends to think the same way i do. But then again, i have very little faith in humanity.

[Cobra_Ikari]

hmm...the catboy tends to think the same way i do. But then again, i have very little faith in humanity.

There's a catboy? Where? *scritches ears* ^_^

...in all seriousness, though...the actions were drastic, selfish, and stupid, but I can't bring myself to condemn him. And she's done some similar things in the past, but I wouldn't condemn her, either...

...*hugs and sighs*...

[Brickwall]

The following is probably best considered to be cold hearted and very unromantic, however baised in experience gathered over the years and is only my opinion.

Quite frankly, the guy who OD'd is scum and seems to me to be trying to get the girl's attention and make her pity him. If the two of them have these kinds of issues and if the guy in this situation is so selfish as to do somthing so foolish and self serving, I say leave him in the mud and do your best to comfort the girl and get her to move on. Again, I think the guy is Scum. To put it politely anyway.

And the fact that the girl did that exact same thing to her parents doesn't make you think they're perfect for each other?

Sounds like neither of them are ready for a healthy relationship. All I can say is keep them away from relationships if you can, until they get better.

[Noir-Neko]

The core of the issue is to help the girl, so that was the direction of my conjecture. Thus I didn't feel it necessary to state my opinion of her. Besides, two toal wrecks are hardly a good pair, though they love to find eachother.

Yes, I do have very little faith in Humanity as a general whole, especially when I don't know the individuals personally. I can only speak from a third party perspective and I don't know all of the other possible mitigating circumstances. But none the less my opinion stands, they don't belong together and she is simply being a, "classic" teenage drama "my life sucks! He's the only one for me!" Romantic.

Din't get me wrong, I hope it is resolved easaly and with as little pain on anyone's side as possable. But when people get attached to eachother, even for foolish reasons, the separation is always going to be painful for someone; and in these situations, that someone often does something stupid, and sometimes tragic.

[Groundhog]

The guy sounds insecure...maybe that's why he has a slightly controlling girlfriend. She, knowing him pretty well I'd imagine, probably feels like she should have known that he wouldn't take the fight very well. Also, even if there's something bigger involved in this guy's ODing, the fight was the last thing that happened before it, so she feels like she set him off or something. If the guy's depressed (and it sounds like he is) then you need to explain to her that her actions have almost nothing to do with whether he's depressed or not, it's a problem with him, not his life. Yes, she probably cheered him up when they were together, but her being with him or not can't change the fact that he is depressed, and even if the two of them hadn't fought, he would have ODed anyway. The only thing she can do now is be supportive of him as he recovers, and to give him room to be himself. (I wouldn't mention this to her, but her being controlling probably kept him in that insecure state.)

[Ranna]

If the guy OD'd then maybe he is better off having a slightly controlling girlfriend

and she probably doesnt see herself as being as controlling as she is, maybe she's just being nurotic about stuff. Which then gives the boy little freedom to do things otherwise it'll upset her and he wants to keep her happy and so it looks like she is controlling his actions but really he is doing it to keep her happy through his own choice..

To comfort the girl her you would have to have more information on what the fight was about and of course take her side in the argument frankly the fact that the other guy tried to OD is a lil freaky and i'd suggest staying from him til he sorts himself out then go into relationship councilling if they still want to be together after HIS councilling?

[Cobra_Ikari]

I stand by that they should not continue this relationship. Doing so will only make things worse for both of them.

[Stormthorn]

Thank you all for your opinions.

Oh, and the catboy is Noir-Neko, although I cant be sure of the gender of the avatar, I will assume it is male.

[Player_Zero]

The following is probably best considered to be cold hearted and very unromantic, however baised in experience gathered over the years and is only my opinion.

Quite frankly, the guy who OD'd is scum and seems to me to be trying to get the girl's attention and make her pity him. If the two of them have these kinds of issues and if the guy in this situation is so selfish as to do somthing so foolish and self serving, I say leave him in the mud and do your best to comfort the girl and get her to move on. Again, I think the guy is Scum. To put it politely anyway.

Not to disagree, but I disagree completely and utterly. Do you think people who are mentally unhealthy are scum? ...Why not go and join a particular political group which deals with segregating everyone who believes to be inhuman while you're at it...

I don't know the circumstances or whether either of them is particularly to be blamed, see. So I'm gonna' go ahead and say that someone who cries out for attention in the form of an overdose is also crying out for help.

[The Valiant Turtle]

I want to emphatically agree with Player Zero above me.

There has been a lot of Fundamental Attribution Error (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) going on in here and it really needs to stop. If I posted a 50 word summary of any of you in a very bad time in your life I'm sure everyone would think you're scum/dependent/co-dependent/in a bad relationship/whatever. Attempting suicide may be dumb and foolish, it also happens to be a strong form of communication when other ways aren't working (although that may not be the issue here).

Stormthorn says that Laura is a bit controlling and emotional, but most of us are, so let's not exagerate that to mean shes a total control freak who is constantly flying off the handle. It's possible that she may need to attempt to tone those aspects down, but perhaps not. It seems likely that Mike's issue may have been what he perceived as the deterioration of the relationship, so he may be relatively happy with her the way she is. Only Mike can really answer that.

To answer the core question of "What can Laura do?": From Stormthorns follow up post it sounds like she really is quite committed to this relationship. I would say the main thing she needs to do is listen and reassure. She needs to go see Mike with the intention of doing nothing but listen to anything he feels he needs to say and not be defensive if some of it hurts. At the end she will probably need to reassure him that she is (or is not) still committed to the relationship. If there are other external stresses on Mike (which I suspect) she needs to decide to put off whatever fights they may need to have until he is better capable of dealing with it.

It sounds like they may really need to learn to fight clean and that fighting is normal and healthy in every relationship. Being able to fight clean is one of the most important skills in any relationship (and is a great predictor of a successful marriage). If they are willing to get some therapy strictly for the purposes of learning how to fight it would be great. If they can't get a genuine therapist then a mature and non-involved person (a pastor is often appropriate if they are religious) to referee the fight a little bit and keep things from getting out of hand. If neither of those are options, they might be able to manage it with self-help books and a little humility on both sides.

If you can give us any more information that would be helpful. Knowing approximate ages would help as would knowing if there are other issues that Mike is currently dealing with.

[Tom_Violence]

The following is probably best considered to be cold hearted and very unromantic, however baised in experience gathered over the years and is only my opinion.

Quite frankly, the guy who OD'd is scum and seems to me to be trying to get the girl's attention and make her pity him. If the two of them have these kinds of issues and if the guy in this situation is so selfish as to do somthing so foolish and self serving, I say leave him in the mud and do your best to comfort the girl and get her to move on. Again, I think the guy is Scum. To put it politely anyway.

I have no qualms whatsoever in saying that you are a horrible person, and this is perhaps one of the worst opinions I have ever read in my life.

Taking enough painkillers to put yourself in hospital is not a trivial thing, for god's sake. Surely anyone with half a lick of sense in their head can see that this guy is not all right in the head, and needs serious help, otherwise he may well end up doing something much worse to himself. What kind of disgusting person are you that you would gladly let someone else kill themselves because you are so arrogant to think that the only reason they would do such a thing is to get attention, as if they're a little child throwing a tantrum?! Do you really have such a indifferent view of an actual human life?

Good grief, I'm now angry, and fairly upset that people can actually have these views, and not bother to think them through. If the guy had died, your actual reaction would be "Good riddance" and not "That's terrible! Why did this happen?" ?!

:furious:

[Johnny Blade]

@ Stormthorn:
It would help if you could write some more things about Laura, because all that can be said now is pretty much a shot in the dark.

Anyway, seeing how she is willing to give up something very special to her to save this relationship, OD'ed some time ago and is described as controlling, I guess that she isn't too sure of herself.
And since what Mike just did speaks for itself, I guess they both have their problems.
If these assumptions are correct, they should break up. Really, I don't like writing this, but they both seem to need to grow as a person.
And this is hard to accomplish if there's always someone who drags you down, which is mostly the case when you're in a relationship with someone who has enough of his own **** to deal with.

[Stormthorn]

It would help if you could write some more things about Laura, because all that can be said now is pretty much a shot in the dark.

Im not very good about giving relavent information about people.

She claims that he's her "ex" now. Last tiem they broke up it was over somehting he did (same way it was this time) and he managed to salvage the relationship.

I dont know much about the guy, but she says he is like me in a lot of ways, so im going to assume he is highly manipulative. She wants to control things but i suspect he actualy does control it all. If he comes back to her that "ex" title might just vanish with a few choice words.

I like the poor girl. She has problems but some bad stuff has happened to her.

Oh, and BTW, i might by like her ex in a lot of ways, but i havnt attmepted suicide. I have a fatal dosage of painkillers measured out, just in case, but it would take a lot for me to down it.

[Cobra_Ikari]

...

...don't "just in case" prepare a suicide dose. Kthanks. >.<

...honestly, why is that even a response you would consider? Any of you three? What is it about your lives that makes death seem like such an inviting option, huh?

...sorry if I'm coming off a bit harsh, but...the idea of this just pisses me off.

[Vuzzmop]

So, you've given us bugger all information, but it sounds like he had a particularly needy persona, and if she can't be bothered with someone who sounds like an absolute douche, than good on her. Its not her fault he got angry/depressed/irrational enough to do something so incredibly stupid, and she shouldn't have to put up with it.

@Stormthorn: you actually keep a stash of medication "just in case" you really feel like dieing? :smallconfused: I don't think I need to tell you just how dumb that is. Anyone who disrespects themself enough to kill themselves young, doesn't deserve my respect either.

Trying not to be cruel, but I might as well speak the truth.

[Stormthorn]

...

...don't "just in case" prepare a suicide dose. Kthanks. >.<

...honestly, why is that even a response you would consider? Any of you three? What is it about your lives that makes death seem like such an inviting option, huh?

...sorry if I'm coming off a bit harsh, but...the idea of this just pisses me off.

My "exit strategy" isnt what we are talking about here. Besides, pills are a painful way to go unless you use sleeping pills. And my life doesnt suck, but sometimes people get tired of this whole "doing work so you can live longer to do work" thing.

My problems arnt my concern right now. Focusing on helping another persons relationship is, because sometimes im too nice for my own good.

[DeathQuaker]

Sorry to hear about your friends' and your concerns. It sounds like a lot of stress is going on in your and your friends' lives.



My problems arnt my concern right now.

Tough love mode, and an observation: If they aren't your concern, you wouldn't have brought it up. NOBODY says, "I have a suicide plan," if they aren't expecting to get attention from it. That's the way these things tend to work, even if you don't acknowledge it. Maybe it is none of our business--we are a text-based forum full of strangers after all--but if nothing else, maybe you're sending a message to yourself, if no one else, that you have your own problems that might need addressing.

And that leads us to...


Focusing on helping another persons relationship is, because sometimes im too nice for my own good.

I totally, totally understand wanting to help other folks in a bad situation, and I know how gut-wrenching it can be to watch two people be self-destructive over each other.

Here's the thing, though: relationships have everything to do with the two people involved, and nothing to do with a third party. Trying to intervene at best is going to result in nothing (because these two have their feelings about each other and they aren't going to change) or at worst, you're going to lose one or both of them as a friend because they see you as meddling in something that isn't your business.

SO, what do you do, as a friend?

Listen. Listen, repeat back their feelings they express to them, be understanding. IF they ask for advice, THEN you can offer what you think, based on what you know about them. But if they don't ask for it, they may not want to hear what you think of their relationship. This can get to be very touchy so you need to leave the door open for them to talk, but they have to seek out the answers themselves.

In short: make sure they know you're there for them as part of their external support network, but you're going to have to let them work out their issues in their own way.

MAJOR EXCEPTION: If you see obvious signs of further self-abuse, drug-taking, threats against their own lives or others, then the only intervention you can do is offer to take them to the hospital, or if it's really bad, call the police. If they've hit the stage of "harming themselves and/or others" they need professional help. There's absolutely nothing you can do for them except enable them to get the assistance they need.

You can't fix other people's problems, though you can encourage people to fix their own problems and offer a fresh perspective. Any other energy should be put towards addressing any of your own problems (see above) so you have the emotional and intellectual energy to handle the stress of dealing with two mentally unstable friends having problems with each other.

Those are my thoughts; apologies if too frank. Hard to know how to communicate these things over this kind of medium. But these are hard things... that've I've largely learned the hard way myself, but I've learned very, very much through experience. It's yours to take or leave.

[AKA_Bait]

Sounds like neither of them are ready for a healthy relationship. All I can say is keep them away from relationships if you can, until they get better.

Probably true.


and she probably doesnt see herself as being as controlling as she is, maybe she's just being nurotic about stuff.

Which is a river in egypt on the girls part, I'm guessing, but still, probably true.


I have a fatal dosage of painkillers measured out, just in case, but it would take a lot for me to down it.

Do me a great personal favor? Pour it out or flush it depending upon the medium of delivery. I'll reimburse you. Seriously. PM me. If a time where that must be, and I do understand some circumstances where that makes a modicum of sense, does occur, fine. However, having the means directly to hand is a bad idea. We are all emotional and if things are easy at a moment we can make irrevocable decisions.

Anyway, what I was going to say, is that your two friends might be helped by this place (http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/)if the give it a shot.

Edit: Also, listen to DeathQuaker.

[Stormthorn]

NOBODY says, "I have a suicide plan," if they aren't expecting to get attention from it.

I was using that as an example for how similar I am to the other dude without actualy doing anything that would put me in the hospital.

But you guys have a point. I made that stash when i was depressed some months ago. I will eliminate it.

Interesting side note:
I had the stuff mixed into a tea-like mixture made from poisonous leaves steeped in hot water. When i dumped it out crystals of poisonus salt where growing inside the container. I bet someone would pay me for that. Oh, and the stuff burned the scraped on my fingers when it splashed onto them. Musta been strong.

[Noir-Neko]

Is there anything else you can think of that we can do to help Stormthorn? Or are you confident in how things are going?


As for the few who think I'm the worst person in the world. Your more then welcome to PM me and discuss it. But I'll simply say I have difficulty caring about people who don't care about themselves, the world is not their tissue. The only thing Suicide does is hurt the ones who love them the most, and to me, that makes them scum, yes. - You may also want to read my second Post.

P.S. Don't bother if your not mature enough to have the conversation.

[DeathQuaker]

I was using that as an example for how similar I am to the other dude without actualy doing anything that would put me in the hospital.

But you guys have a point. I made that stash when i was depressed some months ago. I will eliminate it.


Thank you! Best thing I've heard this morning.

Hope the situation with your friends gets resolved as best it can.

[Johnny Blade]

Im not very good about giving relavent information about people.

She claims that he's her "ex" now. Last tiem they broke up it was over somehting he did (same way it was this time) and he managed to salvage the relationship.

I dont know much about the guy, but she says he is like me in a lot of ways, so im going to assume he is highly manipulative. She wants to control things but i suspect he actualy does control it all. If he comes back to her that "ex" title might just vanish with a few choice words.

I like the poor girl. She has problems but some bad stuff has happened to her.
First off, DeathQuaker makes a good point: You should always listen and try to find out what your friend wants first. (I guess you do it anyway, but it may have come across like I wouldn't.)
I would, however, disagree with one part of her post: You shouldn't only give your advice when you're asked to do so. By all means, give advice if you have it, just don't assume that you can really know what another person truly wants or needs.
It's always good to have another opinion so you can put your own into perspective if you ask me.

That being said, it of course is sometimes (often) better for a person to make such an important decision alone. That's your call as a friend.

I, however, would probably just give her my opinion - which still is that they need time for themselves and shouldn't be in that relationship right now, or maybe even any relationship at all, since it seems highly probable that they'll just drag each other down - since Mike doesn't seem to be the type to leave her alone for too long.
This, however, brings me to the important part: judging from your description of their relationship (him being the one in control and all), I think she should probably not see him for a while so she at least has the time to make her mind up.


Also, good to hear you got rid of the painkillers. Really, no matter what your opinion on suicide in general is, having an overdose at hand in every situation doesn't seem like a good idea.

[Stormthorn]

As for the few who think I'm the worst person in the world. Your more then welcome to PM me and discuss it. But I'll simply say I have difficulty caring about people who don't care about themselves, the world is not their tissue. The only thing Suicide does is hurt the ones who love them the most, and to me, that makes them scum, yes. - You may also want to read my second Post.

P.S. Don't bother if your not mature enough to have the conversation.

I respect your opinion and I agree with you to a large extent, but your words are bordering on trolling for a fight. (specificly your P.S. attachment)

I expect people to have different view and im not a mod, but i started this thread and i dont want people arguing over ethics, even in PMs.

[Vuzzmop]

I'm going to second Stormthorn's post. No matter how negative my views on the subject, it isn't what this thread was meant for. Let's try and stay civil shall we, it is after all the one thing seperating us from the animals i.e every other forum of the internet.

End Transmission

[Yoritomo Himeko]

No death or explicit content takes place below, but the younger readers probably couldnt help me and dont need to be exposed to the Drama.


Ok, so lets say we have a girl named "Laura". And also a guy named "Mike". Laura and Mike have been together for awhile now. Laura is a nice girl but abit controling and emotional. Her and mike get into a big fight. After a few days things seem cool. Then after a week they get into another big fight. The aftermath of this second fight causes Mike to OD on painkillers and he is currently recovering in the hospital.

How might you go about helping these two people? Specificly the girl above Mike.

Well, personally, I think they both need help.

Laura may be a "nice girl", but she'll continue to have problems if she doesn't learn to let go.

Mike should get some help for the painkillers. Even if he's only doing this for attention, (and not because of some addiction), this is still very serious.

They both have issues that need to be dealt with as soon as possible. If not, things are only going to get worse.

[Cuddly]

Why would you want to help the girl above mike when Mike's the one that OD'd?

Probably because he doesn't want to sleep with Mike.

[Koga]

I would just pretend like I care then laugh behind both their backs.


Nobody ever listens to good advise anyway. Screw'em, let them OD.