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Quorothorn
2008-04-22, 08:38 PM
Whilst I suppose the easiest answer might be “If your team doesn’t win you get no XP”, I’ve been wondering about the case when one side loses but certain individuals in the group survive and do some serious damage.

The specific incident that is making me wonder about this is actually a NPC v. NPC group-battle: the NPCs in question are important ones that are going to advance in level. So I was wondering if there was a codified way to deal with certain somewhat odd conditions that appeared in this particular incident.

Here’s the situation: two factions in an orc tribe squared off for dominance of the band. The first was an Adept who had led the warband for an extended length of time, using his magic (cure/disruption/damage spells and Animate Dead, not to mention his fairly solid grasp on tactical positioning) to make the group far more effective in their raids. However, these ARE Orcs, and the Adept (Kara-Khitai, if anyone’s interested in names) is a rather small orc, in the Old age category, with highly unimpressive Physicals but unusually solid Mentals, so, naturally, some figured he’s not fit to lead because of that negative Strength modifier. The second faction was a contingent of 16 1st-level Barbarians (called “Berserkers”, unsurprisingly), led by another Barbarian (Naiman) of 9th-level.

So, the two groups square off after some amount of in-fighting (not yet actual throw-down combat, however). It’s the seventeen Berserkers against Khitai and his commanded undead (24 human skeletons and an ogre zombie). Khitai gets the jump on his opponents, frying three Berserkers (and badly singing Naiman) with a Lightning Bolt: a seven-round showdown results. Khitai and the ogre fight Naiman as the skeletons and Berserkers clash, then, with Naiman dead (Khitai finished him with a spear-thrust, to add insult to injury), Khitai turned his attention to the Berserkers (who were slowly--and not without losses--but steadily winning against the skeletons despite the two-to-one numbers—CR 1/3 skeletons against PC-class orcs, after all). He fried all the ones who were still standing with a couple Burning Hands…except one, who made two Reflex saves and was still standing with 1 HP: said Berserker (Tayiachar) wisely surrendered, and Khitai healed him, and another Berserker (Kushluk, who had been downed by the skeletons but who Khitai considered worth saving—and yes, I did rip off the Mongols for these names). Khitai then used Animate Dead (his last daily non-cantrip) to turn the 14 fallen Berserkers into skeletons and Naiman into a zombie (as a continuing message that HE, Kara-Khitai, was in charge…and also because his entire force of undead had been wiped out in the fight, except for two skeletons who had gotten lucky and were still hanging around w/1HP—when in Rage, the Berserker’s dealt 1d12+9 damage, so even with their Damage Reduction any struck skeleton was dust unless that d12 came up 1; one got exactly that lucky, and the other made his Reflex save when caught in the cone of Khitai’s final Burning Hands).

That’s leaving out all the intra-battle shouting going on, of course (Khitai tried to warn Naiman and the others to back down, with obviously mixed results: Tayiachar “saw the light”, but another Berserker, even in the last round when it was obvious his faction had lost completely, refused to lay down his axe).

Anyway, my question obviously is about those three surviving orcs. What kind of CR would this be for Khitai? He has a NPC class, so I’m not sure if that’s supposed to have any effect on the table (he’s 9th-level, FYI). I put the Berserkers (all 16 plus Naiman) as CR11 all told, so I’m presuming it’s 5,400 lovely XPs for Khitai. But what about Kushluk and Tayiachar? Especially Tayiachar, who not only surrendered to Khitai before the battle actually ended but also kicked total ass during the fight itself (he destroyed four skeletons and helped down the ogre zombie before surrendering in Round 6; Kushluk also took down a skeleton, but was critted, then hit twice more, and went down in Round 2). Would he get XP for those accomplishments?

Again, I can always advance these lot “by feel”, but if anyone can provide or point me towards a reliable way of figuring out this sort of thing in future, that’d likely be useful. Perhaps the CR of the opponents the character-on-the-losing side defeated in the course of battle would be a start?

Oh, and if anyone’s wondering what the other 400 orcs in the band were doing: they were all standing around and watching the battle for rulership over them, obviously.

Chronos
2008-04-22, 08:54 PM
If Naiman had surrendered (or fled) and survived, he would get no XP (no matter how many kills he got), since his objective was to take control of the tribe, and he failed in his objective. The other orcs had different objectives, though, and should be awarded XP if they achieved those objectives. Probably, Tayiachar's objective was something like "prove himself valiant and worthy to the chief of the tribe", and in that, he succeeded, to the extent of his kills. So give him XP for the kills he got, but not for the other made by others on his side (since those don't prove his worth), nor for the surviving members of Khitai's faction (since they weren't defeated).

Meanwhile, Khitai gets XP for all of the orcs who were killed or surrendered, since surrender counts as defeat, and he clearly achieved his goal of cementing his control over the tribe.

Quorothorn
2008-04-22, 09:07 PM
If Naiman had surrendered (or fled) and survived, he would get no XP (no matter how many kills he got), since his objective was to take control of the tribe, and he failed in his objective. The other orcs had different objectives, though, and should be awarded XP if they achieved those objectives. Probably, Tayiachar's objective was something like "prove himself valiant and worthy to the chief of the tribe", and in that, he succeeded, to the extent of his kills. So give him XP for the kills he got, but not for the other made by others on his side (since those don't prove his worth), nor for the surviving members of Khitai's faction (since they weren't defeated).

Meanwhile, Khitai gets XP for all of the orcs who were killed or surrendered, since surrender counts as defeat, and he clearly achieved his goal of cementing his control over the tribe.

Thanks, Chronos: thinking in terms of objectives works nicely.

SilverClawShift
2008-04-22, 09:34 PM
Another thing to keep in mind: It's called Experience Points, not Victory Points. Surviving a losing battle still teaches you something about the struggle, and will put you that much closer to winning the next fight (being a higher level).

You certainly shouldn't get full XP for losing a battle, but I don't think XP should be handed out based soley and specifically on killing things anyway.

Rutee
2008-04-22, 09:45 PM
You know, I'm not sure. In DnD, I don't think I would give full exp (Definitely partial though), because Exp is tied to success. I would if I didn't think my players would mind, but that's not a guarantee, so I'd just give partial.. probably.

In another game, probably full.

CthulhuM
2008-04-22, 10:36 PM
XP is really more of a general guideline than a firm ruleset for PCs (how could it not be, when CR itself is so imprecise). For NPCs, I'd say that the benefit to be gained from worrying about how much XP they should get from a combat is unlikely to be worth the trouble of working it all out, especially in a complicated situation like the one you described.

So I'd say just fiat it - the orcs are whatever level you need them to be if it comes to fighting the PCs, within the (very rough) constraints of reason.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-23, 02:14 AM
Yeah, partial for surviving. It's one of my pet peeves that the XP system is exactly the wrong way around. It makes sense from a reward for your PCs sense but the idea that you learn more by winning and not losing is dumb.:smallyuk: If everything you do goes well, you win and aren't forced to adapt or intergrate new tactics or whatever what, at the end of it, have you learned? Whereas if you get your ass handed to you and you have to completely rethink how to fight, who to fight and when to run like a little scaredy chicken then surely you've grown more?

Put it this way, the surviving berserkers have learned a game system truism, "mess ye not with casters cause they will spank you" at the same time the winning side has learned, well nothing much really, they're liable to try the same tactics again next time for the not unreasonable perspective of "why mess with success".

Saph
2008-04-23, 03:34 AM
I always give XP for any battle, no matter whether the PCs won, lost, or drew. It's just cruel to have the PCs get their butts handed to them, and then get no XP as well. Insult to injury.

I generally go with half XP for lost battles - if the PCs are losing, the enemy is usually way above their CR, so even half XP amounts to a decent consolation prize.

- Saph