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Swooper
2008-04-23, 07:04 AM
Didn't see a thread on it yet so: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080423a

And for those poor sods sitting at work behind firewalls:
Your paragon path is college after high school, the second job you take after you leave the first one, the worthy cause you volunteer your time to help with while you are working full time. If you’re coming to Dungeons & Dragons from the 3rd edition/v3.5 edition, paragon paths are somewhat similar to prestige classes. In 4th edition terms, paragon paths let you further tweak and refine your character within the more general concep-tual space of class, even as you continue to gain features from your class.

To think of them another way, paragon paths are like snack-size packets of character concept—just enough, but not so much you’ve ruined your dinner with either bloat or an unhappy mixture of class concepts for your taste. Dip into one flavor by selecting your path for 11th to 20th, and then select another course again from 21st to 30th with an epic destiny. (Alternatively if you wish, you can also select powers from a second class in place of a paragon path. That’s described in the information on multiclassing, and something we’ll cover in a future preview article.)

The Player’s Handbook supplies many paragon paths (you’ll find one for each class, previewed below), plus upcoming products and Dragon Magazine features will include even more paths as time goes on. That gives you lots of snack-size packets to choose from in order to craft the perfect character and differentiate your par-ticular class build from the many others in the Dungeons & Dragons game.

Here are the fundamentals: You select a paragon path at 11th level. You gain access to two or more paragon path features at 11th level, including a paragon path feature that let’s you broaden the use of an action point with an additional benefit. You also gain another paragon path feature at 16th level. In addition, selecting a paragon path gives you access to one encounter power at 11th, one utility power at 12th, and a daily power at 20th. All of which looks like this:

* 11th: Paragon path feature
* 11th: Paragon path action point feature
* 11th: Paragon path encounter power
* 12th: Paragon path utility power
* 16th: Paragon path feature
* 20th: Paragon path daily power

--Julia Martin




You have survived and thrived through ten levels of adventure.

You’ve explored dank dungeons, defeated vile monsters, and learned priceless secrets. You’ve started making a name for yourself.

Now you’re ready to take the next step: you’re ready to choose a paragon path.

As your class describes your basic role in the party, your paragon path represents a particular area of expertise within that role. It’s a form of specialization beyond even what a build choice represents. You might be a battle cleric and specialize in melee powers, but starting at 11th level you can be a warpriest and specialize in battle prayers.

As shown on the Character Advancement table on page 29 of the Player's Handbook, your paragon path gives you new capabilities from 11th level through 20th level. But adopting a paragon path doesn’t mean you stop advancing in your class. All the powers and features you gain from your paragon path come in addition to your class powers and features, not instead of them. You don’t stop being a cleric when you become a radiant servant. Instead, you gain new capabilities that extend, enhance, and complement the abilities of your class.

Paragon paths also broaden the use of action points in different ways. Each paragon path features a different, extra capability that characters can unlock by spending action points. So, once you pick your paragon path, you can still spend an action point to take an extra action. But you’ll also have a new capability for action points that is unique to your path. Some of these capabilities come in addition to the extra action you get for spending an action point, some are used instead of getting an extra action.

When you reach 11th level, choose a paragon path. All paths have prerequisites, conditions you have to fulfill before you can adopt that path.
Paragon Tier Feats

Any feat in the following section is available to a character of 11th level or higher who meets the prerequisites. A sampling of paragon tier feats:
{table]Name | Prerequisites | Benefit
Armor Specialization (Chainmail) | Dex 15, training with chainmail | +1 to AC with chainmail, reduce check penalty by 1
Danger Sense | — | Roll twice for initiative, use the higher result
Deadly Axe | Str 17, Con 13 | Treat all axes as high crit weapons
Devastating Critical | — | Deal additional 1d10 damage on a critical hit
Empowered Dragon Breath | Dragonborn, dragon breath racial power | Dragon breath uses d10s
Lasting Frost | — | Target hit with cold power gains vulnerable cold 5
Scimitar Dance | Str 15, Dex 17 | Deal Dex modifier damage on miss
Second Implement | Wizard, Arcane Implement Mastery class feature | Gain mastery with second arcane implement
Seize the Moment | Dex 17 | Gain combat advantage over foe with lower initiative
Sly Hunter | Wis 15 | +3 damage with bow against isolated target
Spear Push | Str 15, Dex 13 | Add 1 square to distance pushed with spear or polearm
Steady Shooter | Con 15 | +3 damage with crossbow if you don’t move
Twofold Curse | Warlock, Warlock’s Curse class feature | Curse the two nearest enemies
Underfoot | Halfling, trained in Acrobatics | Move through spaces of Large or larger creatures[/table]
Cleric: Warpriest

“Let loose the gift of battle!”

Prerequisite: Cleric class

Your god demands battle to accomplish the tenets of your faith, and you are the chosen priest at the forefront of the war. When you call upon your divine powers, your weapons glow with holy light.

Warpriest Path Features

Extra Damage Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also add one-half your level to the damage dealt by any of your standard action attacks this turn.

Warpriest’s Strategy (11th level): Once per encounter, if you or an adjacent ally rolls a 1 when making a melee attack or a close attack, you can call for a reroll.

Warpriest’s Training (11th level): You receive a +1 bonus to AC when wearing heavy armor.

Warpriest’s Challenge (16th level): When you hit an enemy with an at-will melee attack, you can choose to mark that enemy for the rest of the encounter. The next time that enemy shifts or attacks a creature other than you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. If you mark a new enemy with this feature, any previous marks you have made with this feature end.

Fighter: Kensei

“My weapon and I are as one.”

Prerequisite: Fighter class

You study an ancient form of martial training that makes you one with your chosen weapon, creating a combination of destruction that few foes can long stand against.

Kensei Path Features

Kensei Control Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to reroll one attack roll, damage roll, skill check, or ability check, instead of taking an extra action.

Kensei Focus (11th level): You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with a melee weapon of your choice.

Kensei Mastery (16th level): You gain a +4 bonus to damage rolls with the same weapon you selected for Kensei Focus. If you ever use a different type of weapon, you lose this benefit, and the benefit for Kensei Focus, until you take a short rest, during which time you reattune yourself to your chosen weapon with a short meditation.

Paladin: Justiciar

“I fight for justice, my faith and my strong arm defending those in need.”

Prerequisite: Paladin class

You become the embodiment of justice, a champion of righteousness and fairness—at least as viewed from the perspective of your particular faith. You are granted the ability to shelter and protect your allies and others in need, while also receiving powers that help you do the right thing according to the faith you have embraced.

Justiciar Path Features

Just Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, each enemy adjacent to you is weakened until the end of its next turn.

Just Spirit (11th level): Each ally adjacent to you can reroll one saving throw at the end of his or her turn.

Just Shelter (16th level): Allies adjacent to you are immune to fear and charm effects and receive a +1 bonus to saving throws.

Ranger: Stormwarden

“I have accepted the burden of the stormwardens of the Feywild, and this region is under my protection.”

Prerequisite: Ranger class, two-blade fighting style

Your role as a warden and defender of the wild takes on new heights as you learn the ancient ways of the stormwardens of the Feywild. These techniques turn your whirling blades into a storm of destruction that rains down punishing blows on your enemies. With each slash of your weapon, the wind howls in anticipation of the coming storm.

Stormwarden Path Features

Blade Storm (11th level): As long as you are armed with a melee weapon and are capable of making an opportunity attack, one adjacent enemy (your choice) takes damage equal to your Dexterity modifier at the end of your turn.

Stormstep Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you can teleport 3 squares either before or after you use the extra action.

Twin-Blade Storm (16th level): As long as you are armed with a melee weapon and are capable of making an opportunity attack, two adjacent enemies (your choice) take lightning damage equal to your Dexterity modifier at the end of your turn.

Stormwarden Exploits

Clearing the Ground Stormwarden Attack 11
You sweep your blades in mighty arcs around you, cutting foes that get too close and thrusting them back.

EncounterMartial,Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square.

Throw Caution to the Wind Stormwarden Utility 12
Aw, what the hell. You only live once.

EncounterMartial, Stance
Minor Action Personal

Effect: You take a –2 penalty to all defenses and gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls.

Cold Steel Hurricane Stormwarden Attack 20
You rush into the midst of your enemies and, like a freezing wind, flay them alive.

DailyMartial, Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Special: Before you attack, shift a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon and off-hand weapon), two attacks per target

Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack.

Effect: You regain your second wind if you have already used it during this encounter.

Rogue: Shadow Assassin

“When you need something dead, you’ll be hard pressed to find someone better at the job than me.”

Prerequisite: Rogue class

You become a killing machine, striking from the shadows with deadly and bloody efficiency, and turning attacks against you into pain and suffering for your enemies. You believe in doing unto others before they can do unto you, and you know how to deliver punishment as only a striker can.

Shadow Assassin Path Features

Shadow Assassin’s Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.

Shadow Assassin’s Riposte (11th level): Any adjacent enemy that misses you with a melee attack takes damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.

Bloody Evisceration (16th level): Gain an extra 1d6 Sneak Attack damage when attacking a bloodied enemy.

Warlock: Doomsayer

“I speak for the cold darkness beyond the stars. I see the myriad ways that doom comes upon you.”

Prerequisite: Warlock class, star pact

You wrap yourself in the fear of the darkness beyond the stars and use it as a shield against your enemies. In addition, you examine the strands of fate to issue proclamations of doom to all who stand against you.

Doomsayer Path Features

Doomsayer’s Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also deal the extra damage of your Warlock’s Curse to all of your enemies currently affected by it.

Doomsayer’s Proclamation (11th level): Enemies within 10 squares of you must roll two dice when rolling saving throws against fear effects. They must use the lower of the two rolls.

Doomsayer’s Oath (16th level): When you are bloodied, you gain a +2 power bonus to attack rolls when you use a power that has the fear keyword.

Warlord: Sword Marshal

“This weapon is my symbol of office, and it shines over the field of battle as I wield it against our enemies.”

Prerequisite: Warlord class, proficiency with heavy blade

You have extensively studied the use of light blades and heavy blades, and your weapon of choice has become a symbol of your power and leadership. You never enter a battle without your blade in hand, and your allies know to look for the gleaming weapon when they need help or inspiration.

Sword Marshal Path Features

Disciplined Blade (11th level): When you miss with a melee attack when using a heavy blade, you gain a +2 bonus to your next attack roll against the same enemy.

Sword Marshal’s Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to regain one warlord encounter power you have already used, instead of taking an extra action.

Skewer the Weak (16th level): When you score a critical hit using a heavy blade, you and all your allies gain combat advantage against the enemy you struck until the end of your next turn.

Wizard: Battle Mage

“You think I’m just a simple scholar, my head buried amid my scrolls and books? Think again!”

Prerequisite: Wizard class

You didn’t leave behind the thrill of battle when you took up the mantle of wizard, so why should you stand back and let the fighters have all the fun? You have developed skills and techniques that have turned you into a true battle mage, ready to deal damage up close and personal or from afar, depending on the situation and how the mood strikes you. You have even learned of a technique for using arcane energy to temporarily stave off death—and you can’t wait to try it out in battle!

Battle Mage Path Features

Arcane Riposte (11th level): Imbued with magical might, your hands bristle with arcane energy in the heat of battle. When a creature provokes an opportunity attack from you, make an opportunity attack with one of your hands (Dexterity vs. AC). Choose cold, fire, force, or lightning. You deal 1d8 + Intelligence modifier damage of that type with this attack.

Battle Mage Action (11th level): When you spend an action point to take an extra action, you also gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls until the start of your next turn.

Battle Edge (16th level): When you first become bloodied in an encounter, you can use any at-will power you know as an immediate reaction.


Edit: OK, bits of it came out bad when I copied. Can someone who knows how turn the feat part into a table? I'll edit this post and put it in.
Edit 2: Thank you, Sam.

wodan46
2008-04-23, 07:22 AM
I must admit that I'm disappointed that the paragon paths shown so far have strict class pre-reqs, with not even the option of having each path having 2 classes that can take it. Then again, maybe its just the ones they're showing us for now, but I think thats me being foolishly optimistic. Given that some of them have even more strict pre-reqs (Warlock with Star Pact, Ranger with 2 weapon fighting), my assumption is that each class will have at least 2 or 3 paragon paths.

That said, they're pretty awesome. I also like that you can apparently exchange the paragon path for a multiclass, which probably means that you can grab a few useful features and good level powers from 1 class without having to actually take whole levels in it (2 features, 1 encounter, 1 utility, 1 daily).

Also, the feats are pretty cool themselves.

Between ability score bonuses, powers, sustained powers, marks, class features, paragon class features, feats, and magic items, Munchkins are going to do impressive damage.

Myshlaevsky
2008-04-23, 07:37 AM
They look interesting. It might be a simplification, but I still like it - it adds to the 'cool' factor of a character. I'd say that some seem more powerful than others, but I can't really make that kind of judgement till we've seen 4e.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-23, 07:39 AM
Here ya go.

Any feat in the following section is available to a character of 11th level or higher who meets the prerequisites. A sampling of paragon tier feats:
{table]Name | Prerequisites | Benefit
Armor Specialization (Chainmail) | Dex 15, training with chainmail | +1 to AC with chainmail, reduce check penalty by 1
Danger Sense | — | Roll twice for initiative, use the higher result
Deadly Axe | Str 17, Con 13 | Treat all axes as high crit weapons
Devastating Critical | — | Deal additional 1d10 damage on a critical hit
Empowered Dragon Breath | Dragonborn, dragon breath racial power | Dragon breath uses d10s
Lasting Frost | — | Target hit with cold power gains vulnerable cold 5
Scimitar Dance | Str 15, Dex 17 | Deal Dex modifier damage on miss
Second Implement | Wizard, Arcane Implement Mastery class feature | Gain mastery with second arcane implement
Seize the Moment | Dex 17 | Gain combat advantage over foe with lower initiative
Sly Hunter | Wis 15 | +3 damage with bow against isolated target
Spear Push | Str 15, Dex 13 | Add 1 square to distance pushed with spear or polearm
Steady Shooter | Con 15 | +3 damage with crossbow if you don’t move
Twofold Curse | Warlock, Warlock’s Curse class feature | Curse the two nearest enemies
Underfoot | Halfling, trained in Acrobatics | Move through spaces of Large or larger creatures[/table]

Roderick_BR
2008-04-23, 07:50 AM
So, the paragon path is pretty much what I thought it would be: A sort of "automatic prestige class". Or the "advanced classes" from d20 Moderm.
Comparing with games, there's the advanced classes from Ragnarok, and the first Final Fantasy for 8-bit Nes (with their fighter->knight, thief->ninja, black mage->black wizard, etc)
I didn't see the class tables to see if they actually go only up to 10, but that's the impression I have.
The paths presented in the review apparently are:
Cleric -> Warpriest : You become more battle-oriented.
Fighter -> Kensei : A sort of Weapon Master (3.0)/Kensai.
Rogue -> Shadow Assassin : You finally become an Assassin just by leveling up.
Wizard -> Battle Mage : Like, the cleric, you become more battle-oriented.
Yeah, like advanced classes/automatic prestige classes

@wodan46: These are only the "basic" paragons. The gish ones will probably be in the book, with more requisites than just having levels in a class.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-23, 08:05 AM
Sounds promising, I like the feel of all the previewed paragons... just makes me wonder if each paragon will lead into 2 or 3 Epics... or if Epic will be based off of the base class + feats/powers.

Duke of URL
2008-04-23, 08:05 AM
Analysis

Paragon paths seem to be weak versions of Prestige Classes from 3rd edition, but far more strongly tied to a single qualifying class. Neither is necessarily a bad thing -- the proper purpose of a PrC (alliteration unintentional) in 3rd edition was supposed to be to provide a way to specialize a character as some sort of trade-off. However, there were simply too many PrCs that were just "broken" in terms of gaining too much benefit for too little trade-off. (And yes, I'm looking at you, Incantatrix.)

So, in 3rd edition terms, you can't take a prestige class until level 11, upon which time you are forced to take one (or multiclass), but that's OK, because your original class features will be advanced at a 1/1 basis anyway. Reading between the lines, it seems that you will be unable to multiclass before level 11, but that's not very clear and could be incorrect.

From a homebrewing/3rd party standpoint, this makes adding new paragon paths pretty simple -- they have a fairly basic formula behind them, and all you have to do is decide how to specialize a particular base class, and just make sure those granted features are reasonably balanced, which is always the tricky part, but in this case, given the lower power of the paragon path compared to the PrC, probably easier to manage.

It'll be interesting to see how (or if) paragon path selection impacts epic destinies, although I imagine most folks probably won't be playing epic games anyway, much like in 3rd edition, since the power levels are just outrageous (this is a fact in 3rd edition, and reviews/leaks for 4th edition seem to indicate it will be true there as well).

As for feats, they seem fairly weak compared to the feats that would be available at those levels in 3rd edition, but again, this isn't a bad thing per se -- many 3rd edition feats are overpowered, and it seems that the design philosophy in 4th edition is to make feats less powerful, but rather more specialized.

Edit: Addendum -- regarding homebrew or 3rd-party development... it seems like it would be almost essential to define at least two paragon paths for any new base class you plan to introduce. Otherwise your players will be stuck for options at level 11.

Hunter Noventa
2008-04-23, 08:50 AM
Since the yelling of the word "DOOOOOOOOOOOM!" is something of a meme among the people I play D+D with, the Doomsayer path for the Warlock made me cackle with glee.

That said, I think I like the system so far. Rather than having tons of awesome to nigh-useless prestige classes, there will simply be more paths added to help refine what you want to play.

Might also make homebrewing interesting, since you can just come up with a theme for a path based on a lower path and populate it appropriately, not having to worry about things like saving throw progressions and the like, since that's all off the base path.

At least that's how it seems to me.

Starsinger
2008-04-23, 10:34 AM
Wow, I really like where this could be heading. Paragon paths sound awfully nice.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-23, 10:45 AM
They look quite good to me, although it would be good to see some multi-class ones (for example, Justiciar would work for Clerics as well as Paladins, while a Paladin Kensei would work pretty well).

Artanis
2008-04-23, 11:32 AM
It looks really cool, with a lot of potential (that, admittedly, may not come to pass, but I'm willing to wait and see how things work out BEFORE I start screaming that the sky is falling :smalltongue: ).

At any rate, PrCs always bugged me because there were so d***ed many of them that some were bound to be broken just by sheer force of numbers, and many of them, as many people have said, had literally no reason NOT to use them. Their name implied they were special, advanced, prestigious, but they were so much par for the course that the base classes wound up being the exotic ones. Paragon paths, if nothing else, fixes that aspect. There's also more fundamental balance in that you can't go dipping into sixteen PrCs to get some absurd combination of abilities that wind up giving you an ubercharacter (although this may not actually work out in practice, at least the theory is more sound).



Reading between the lines, it seems that you will be unable to multiclass before level 11, but that's not very clear and could be incorrect.
According to ENWorld, and I quote, "Any combo, any level, always works" (emphasis mine).

ENWorld also specifically mentions an early-level, multiclass Gish.

So I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that multiclassing will be restricted to later levels.



Edit: Either way, they say they're going to talk about multiclassing in a future article, so many questions will be cleared up then.

SofS
2008-04-23, 11:46 AM
Being a Doomsayer seems pretty self-defeating. After a while, nobody's really going to have to ask what your opinion is.

Muyten
2008-04-23, 11:49 AM
Being a Doomsayer seems pretty self-defeating. After a while, nobody's really going to have to ask what your opinion is.

Well you can still voice your opinion on internet fora can't you? :smallsmile:

Rutee
2008-04-23, 11:56 AM
Wait.. are they just giving us 1 preview per class here, or are they only giving us one Paragon Path in the PHB? 'cause if the latter, that kinda sucks =/

I like the setup better then PrCs, but a failure to deliver options would be pretty lame. I also like the way Kensei can change selected weapons with some rest and a chance to reattune their weapon.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 11:56 AM
Being a Doomsayer seems pretty self-defeating. After a while, nobody's really going to have to ask what your opinion is.
This is the internet! We don't take kindly to your "logic" and "reason" 'round these here parts, y'hear? :smallbiggrin:


Edit:
They specifically mention "Radiant Servant" and "Warpriest" as two possible Cleric paragon paths, so I assume that there will be multiple choices in the PHB for each class.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-23, 11:59 AM
Personally, I hope that there is something better then what they've shown.

I hate things that just give you a minor little plus +X bonus, or a reroll, ect.

I want something that actually matters, and yes a +X bonus could be good, but at some point it either doesn't help you at all, or is required to be good at your job. So either you don't have a choice about your Paragon path, or it doesn't actually do anything for you. It's weapon focus all over again.

Duke of URL
2008-04-23, 11:59 AM
According to ENWorld, and I quote, "Any combo, any level, always works" (emphasis mine).

ENWorld also specifically mentions an early-level, multiclass Gish.

So I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that multiclassing will be restricted to later levels.



Edit: Either way, they say they're going to talk about multiclassing in a future article, so many questions will be cleared up then.

Yeah, probably. From this article, though, it implies that it's a decision made at paragon levels -- probably just sloppy writing.


Wait.. are they just giving us 1 preview per class here, or are they only giving us one Paragon Path in the PHB? 'cause if the latter, that kinda sucks =/

I like the setup better then PrCs, but a failure to deliver options would be pretty lame. I also like the way Kensei can change selected weapons with some rest and a chance to reattune their weapon.

I have to assume that this is just a sampling, and that there'd be 2+ paragon paths for each base class.

Vortling
2008-04-23, 12:00 PM
Seems to be a lot of use for action points. This generally annoys me as I dislike how the action points are working out in 4e. As far as the paths themselves go I'm not seeing anything to get excited about.

I wonder if your paragon powers have to be selected from the paragon list or if you can use those slots for extra class powers. Hopefully you're not locked into specific powers based off the paragon path you take but it wouldn't really surprise me if you were.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 12:03 PM
What do you dislike about 4e action points? They look pretty good to me, a chance to do something extra every second fight (on average).

They also specifically state that Paragon Paths are on top of your base class. So a Warpriest keeps getting the usual Cleric stuff, but gets Warpriest stuff to go along with it.

Ascension
2008-04-23, 12:12 PM
They don't seem quite balanced to me. The Justicar, in particular, seems a bit underpowered. The Stormwarden there is doing auto damage to nearby foes, the Shadow Assassin can also do some auto damage, the Kensai and Warpriest get noticeable damage bonuses, but the Justicar is totally defensive. Just Spirit is nice, but it just doesn't come off quite as spiffy as the other paths.

I also find it strange that there's apparently nothing special from any of the paragon paths on levels 13-15 and 17-19. Dead levels guaranteed. Bummer.

SofS
2008-04-23, 12:18 PM
Like most of the other previews, this has left me wondering how I'm going to go about playing a generalist should I wind up in a game. They've been pretty clear in saying that feats will be mostly for passive/supportive things (HP boosts, initiative stuff, tweaking class powers), while active abilities will be mostly the province of class powers. Now they let us know that things tend even more towards specialization after 10th level, as most of these paths seem to be all about powering up a specific subset of class abilities. Multiclassing should hopefully do the trick, and I am gratified that there will apparently be a preview for that up soon.


(Cue a dude called ISaithDoom posting about what he sees in the future of this. You have four letters to guess what he sees. Don't make him angry or you'll start taking damage every couple of seconds somehow.)

ShadowSiege
2008-04-23, 12:21 PM
It is interesting to see that Paragon Paths give benefits while still accruing features from the base class. Just as feat chains helped distinguish one fighter from another, it looks like paragon paths will do the same. I'm not concerned with the lack of gish or multiclass paragon paths, as they seem to take up less than a page each, allowing for a very large number to be published in the PHB. The features range from the boring numeric bonuses to cool extra features. The lack of exploits/prayers/spells except the Stormwarden exploits is a disappointment, though the powers of that paragon path look to be effective as well as game stoppers (up to 18 attacks!).

Rutee
2008-04-23, 12:27 PM
I thought the Stormwarden was just the only one getting their Powers listed, not the only one who /had/ new powers.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 12:35 PM
They don't seem quite balanced to me. The Justicar, in particular, seems a bit underpowered. The Stormwarden there is doing auto damage to nearby foes, the Shadow Assassin can also do some auto damage, the Kensai and Warpriest get noticeable damage bonuses, but the Justicar is totally defensive. Just Spirit is nice, but it just doesn't come off quite as spiffy as the other paths.

I also find it strange that there's apparently nothing special from any of the paragon paths on levels 13-15 and 17-19. Dead levels guaranteed. Bummer.
A) There is NO WAY to tell how balanced something is without seeing everything. One page (TOPS) of a preview of a few bits of info is pretty d*** far from everything.

B) Dead levels my a**, you're still getting all your base class stuff. I repeat, you're still getting all your base class stuff. Once again, you're still getting all your base class stuff. Paragon paths are just extra goodies on top of still getting all your base class stuff.

Zeful
2008-04-23, 12:37 PM
Wait.. are they just giving us 1 preview per class here, or are they only giving us one Paragon Path in the PHB? 'cause if the latter, that kinda sucks =/

Origonally there were 12 paragon paths in the PHb, but it has been stated that there will be roughly twice as many.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-23, 12:37 PM
Personally, I hope that there is something better then what they've shown.

I hate things that just give you a minor little plus +X bonus, or a reroll, ect.

I want something that actually matters, and yes a +X bonus could be good, but at some point it either doesn't help you at all, or is required to be good at your job. So either you don't have a choice about your Paragon path, or it doesn't actually do anything for you. It's weapon focus all over again.

Bear in mind, we're not seeing everything. We're only shown the basic bonus, the advanced bonus, and the Action Point use in most of them. The Stormwarden might be the only one that shows us everything.

And as an additional note that nobody else has pointed out yet, we finally get to see a martial utility exploit. Apparently, utility powers for martial classes will be stances.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-23, 12:37 PM
Don't forget, they didn't show the level 20 "uber power" at all, or even hint at it... just said that's when you get your big daily power.

I meant didn't see the level 20 daily power for anyone but stormwarden :smalleek:

tresson
2008-04-23, 01:05 PM
It's been confirmed by WotC_Miko at Enworld that these aren't the only Paragon Paths.


1) There are over 30 paragon paths in the PH.

2) My paladin took a multiclass cleric feat so she could qualify for a cleric paragon path.

Vortling
2008-04-23, 01:09 PM
What do you dislike about 4e action points? They look pretty good to me, a chance to do something extra every second fight (on average).

Couple of things.

Generally I prefer my action dice to be more of the 'add to your roll' variety than this 'add an action' variety. The PDQ system is a good idea of what I mean.

They feel arbitrary and restricted to me. You only get them after a certain number of fights, can only use a certain number of them per fight, and they go away when you rest. As a player I prefer not to have special abilities tied to how many fights my character has been in today. For lack of a better term, it's more gamist than I like.

Lastly I don't think it's going to work well with my gaming style. I play many games over IRC and at most we get through one fight per session. Tracking how many fights we've had "today" when we may not have had a fight for two weeks or more is a hassle.

ShadowSiege
2008-04-23, 01:20 PM
I thought the Stormwarden was just the only one getting their Powers listed, not the only one who /had/ new powers.

You are correct, I worded that poorly. I was expressing my disappointment at the lack of powers previewed. All of the paragon paths have three new powers (encounter, daily, utility).

Wolfwood2
2008-04-23, 01:41 PM
They don't seem quite balanced to me. The Justicar, in particular, seems a bit underpowered. The Stormwarden there is doing auto damage to nearby foes, the Shadow Assassin can also do some auto damage, the Kensai and Warpriest get noticeable damage bonuses, but the Justicar is totally defensive. Just Spirit is nice, but it just doesn't come off quite as spiffy as the other paths.

Just goes to show have views can differ. I immediately pegged the Justicar as the most powerful of the example paths. Yes it's all defense, but what a defense! Recalling that you always count as your own ally, Justicars are:

1. Virtually guaranteed to pass any saving throw.

2. Completely immune to two descriptors- and absolute immunites are going to be a lot rarer in 4E. Even undead aren't immune to fear!

3. Able to automatically weaken enemies around them, no attack, just by spending an action point.

If you want to play a tough-as-nails-paladin who can take anything and come back for more.... If you want to play O-Chul, Justicar is what you want.

Lord Tataraus
2008-04-23, 01:50 PM
My overall reaction: meh

I don't really care for these, they don't impress me much and there are too many reroll, small static bonuses, and action point affinity for my taste. And on top of that the Pathfinder RPG Alpha 2 was released recently and it is a lot more exciting and interesting than this stuff for me. Sure I haven't seen everything, but right now its just not meeting the standard of Pathfinder for me.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 01:52 PM
I don't get how DnD players can mind small, static bonuses. That's what Dungeons and Dragons is pretty much built on.

Morty
2008-04-23, 02:05 PM
I don't get how DnD players can mind small, static bonuses. That's what Dungeons and Dragons is pretty much built on.

That doesn't mean they're a good thing. I don't know about others, but I was hoping 4ed goes away with small, static bonuses in favor of more interesting ones.
From this preview, it looks like the selling point of paragon paths will be powers they grant, not features.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-23, 02:12 PM
I don't get how DnD players can mind small, static bonuses. That's what Dungeons and Dragons is pretty much built on.

The point is you get small static bonuses every time you level. That's fine. But I don't want them saying, "Yeah, you get five powers from your awesome Paragon path: They are +1 to X, +2 to Y, and +4 to Z when you use an action point to gain an extra action. Aren't those awesome?"

No, they aren't. If I get a power from my Paragon path, it better be, "Yeah, you totally do a -2 Dex penalty on your attacks because you are an awesome assassin."

Duke of URL
2008-04-23, 02:12 PM
That doesn't mean they're a good thing. I don't know about others, but I was hoping 4ed goes away with small, static bonuses in favor of more interesting ones.

Be prepared to be disappointed, then. 4e is all about simplicity (to the point where some folks might refer to it as "D&D For Dummies") -- small, static bonuses are simple. Interesting, situational bonuses are not simple. Guess which one they're going to lean toward?

Ascension
2008-04-23, 02:12 PM
A) There is NO WAY to tell how balanced something is without seeing everything. One page (TOPS) of a preview of a few bits of info is pretty d*** far from everything.

B) Dead levels my a**, you're still getting all your base class stuff. I repeat, you're still getting all your base class stuff. Once again, you're still getting all your base class stuff. Paragon paths are just extra goodies on top of still getting all your base class stuff.

Sheesh, sorry, that was just an initial reaction. I never claimed that "OMG PARAGON PATHS AR TEH BROKEN!" I do find it odd that some of the martial classes are getting what appear to be auto-damage abilities (no rolls are mentioned with the Stormwarden and Shadow Assassin abilities) while others don't have anything of the kind, and it doesn't seem quite fair right at the moment, but I'm sure it won't be as bad as it seems.

And sure, you're still getting the base class stuff, but it still feels like a raw deal to enter a path knowing that six out of ten levels don't give you anything special other than your basic stuff. Curse me if you will, but that's just my initial reaction.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 02:18 PM
That doesn't mean they're a good thing. I don't know about others, but I was hoping 4ed goes away with small, static bonuses in favor of more interesting ones.
From this preview, it looks like the selling point of paragon paths will be powers they grant, not features.

See, that's not the vibe I get. If they weren't avid 3.X players, that'd make far more sense. Basically, if our positions were reversed, and I loved 3rd edition and they hated it, it'd make far more sense for them to be opposed to small static bonuses then they are.



The point is you get small static bonuses every time you level. That's fine. But I don't want them saying, "Yeah, you get five powers from your awesome Paragon path: They are +1 to X, +2 to Y, and +4 to Z when you use an action point to gain an extra action. Aren't those awesome?"

Those aren't the powers you get though. Those are the modifiers you get. The /powers/ you get are only listed under Stormwarden, in this preview, and they're pretty spiffy. Auto-Damage to enemies at the end of every round, and the ability to recover your Healing Surge for the battle. Neither of these are small, static bonuses, and one of them is in fact fairly awesome.

Morty
2008-04-23, 02:25 PM
See, that's not the vibe I get. If they weren't avid 3.X players, that'd make far more sense. Basically, if our positions were reversed, and I loved 3rd edition and they hated it, it'd make far more sense for them to be opposed to small static bonuses then they are.


Well, maybe small, static bonuses for a short amount of time is something that bugs even the most avid 3ed no matter which edition. I know it bugs me, but in 4ed it's not much better. The only improvement is that they usually apply until next round, so they're easier to keep track of.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 02:36 PM
Sheesh, sorry, that was just an initial reaction. I never claimed that "OMG PARAGON PATHS AR TEH BROKEN!" I do find it odd that some of the martial classes are getting what appear to be auto-damage abilities (no rolls are mentioned with the Stormwarden and Shadow Assassin abilities) while others don't have anything of the kind, and it doesn't seem quite fair right at the moment, but I'm sure it won't be as bad as it seems.

And sure, you're still getting the base class stuff, but it still feels like a raw deal to enter a path knowing that six out of ten levels don't give you anything special other than your basic stuff. Curse me if you will, but that's just my initial reaction.
I'm sorry, it's just that there's so many people around who declare full knowledge of all 4e's mechanics based on a few sentences that it's getting hard to recognize those who are more reasonable in their reaction :smallfrown:

Oslecamo
2008-04-23, 04:24 PM
I don't get how DnD players can mind small, static bonuses. That's what Dungeons and Dragons is pretty much built on.

At level 10 D&D players don't want small static bonus. They want big situational bonus. At level 10 +1 to this or that is a joke. Players want +5 to this when X happens, double Z when Y occurs, immunity to W as long as V is going, ect, ect.

However, it seems they're playing it safe in 4e and keeping away from multiplying effects or big splashy effects.

Paragon paths seem decent. Unfortenetaly the fact that they are to be used at the same time as normal classes means they won't do much when compared to base classes. What atracted me at 3.X prc was cool unique powerfull powers like hide in plain sight, frenzy, ability to cast in armor, free metamagic, double certain bonus, etc, etc.

Artanis
2008-04-23, 04:27 PM
At level 10 D&D players don't want small static bonus. They want big situational bonus. At level 10 +1 to this or that is a joke. Players want +5 to this when X happens, double Z when Y occurs, immunity to W as long as V is going, ect, ect.
+1 at level 10 is a joke in 3e. Seriously, go look at the Rogue preview, its Sneak Attack goes from 2d6 at level 1 to 5d6 by level 30. That should tell you that the power increases won't be anywhere NEAR the 3e level in many areas.

wodan46
2008-04-23, 05:01 PM
In the following Levels, you gain no Powers, Feats(only 1-14 known), or Paragon Class features: 18, 21, 24, 28, 30

Given that the feat progression is uneven, going 1, 4, 8, 11, 14, and there are probably Class Features and Epic Features at the higher levels, I suspect that there are actually NO DEAD LEVELS period.

As for the issue of 6 out of the 3 paragon path abilities being passive features, this is true of class features in general, which tend to be predominantly feature oriented.

Let me put it this way, would you rather have a lot of powers only available to certain paragon paths, or prefer for them to be in the class proper?

So far, it appears that each class has around 80 powers spread over 7 encounter, 7 daily, and 5 utility tiers (or about 4 possibilities per slot, with no slots being identical unless you want to take below normal powers), and that's still not including At Will abilities.

Lastly, as said before, there are 30 paragon paths. Rangers have at least 2 (one for two weapon fighting, one for ranged), Warlords have at least 2 (heavy blade and something else), Warlocks might have as many as 4 (each of the pacts), and all the rest have at least 2 to give variety most likely. That still leaves at least 12 paths not associated with classes, 5 if every class has 3 paths.

Oh, and you can take a multiclass feat that gives you the option of going down the relevant paragon path, rather than a true multiclass, but we don't know much about this right now.

As said before, +1 bonuses mean a lot more than they used to. There are no more 1d6 a level spells for wizards anymore. A level 26 controller enemy is able to deal 2d8+10 damage on a good day. The +1 per 2 levels bonus will simply cancel out with same leveled enemies on a good day. You will beg for every +1 you can get, and you will like it when you get them.

As for the weaker classes, the only one that really struck me as weak, the Warlord, probably has better unrevealed abilities than the others.

The Justiciar is ridiculously good, easily the best. Free AOE weaken when you use an action point, giving ALL adjacent allies a saving throws REROLL once EVERY TURN, and granting IMMUNITY to yourself and your ALLIES on top of that. The Justiciar makes your party incredibly hard to mess with.

The Kensei happens to be showing both of his passive features and his action point feature, he isn't showing any of his active powers. Which will probably hurt. A lot.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-23, 05:41 PM
I'm sorry, it's just that there's so many people around who declare full knowledge of all 4e's mechanics based on a few sentences that it's getting hard to recognize those who are more reasonable in their reaction :smallfrown:

In my experience abosultely no one claims that, you just jump on every single comment, just like you did his. You then end up apologizing once a thread to someone who explains their statement.

I guess you assume that every other person you attack totally meant that they know all the mechanics.

JaxGaret
2008-04-23, 05:55 PM
The Justiciar is ridiculously good, easily the best. Free AOE weaken when you use an action point, giving ALL adjacent allies a saving throws REROLL once EVERY TURN, and granting IMMUNITY to yourself and your ALLIES on top of that. The Justiciar makes your party incredibly hard to mess with.

It is possible that classes like the Justiciar will be like the Batman Wizards of 4e - by far the most powerful classes when used competently, but much less useful if you use them just for "blasting".

Rutee
2008-04-23, 06:14 PM
It's highly improbable that a Justiciar will be anywhere resembling a Batman. It's granting strong defenses, but it doesn't have any strong attacks (Listed here). Mercifully, Charm and Fear immunity is not immunity to everything, but it's still reliant on someone else dealing your damage for you.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-23, 06:23 PM
It's highly improbable that a Justiciar will be anywhere resembling a Batman. It's granting strong defenses, but it doesn't have any strong attacks (Listed here). Mercifully, Charm and Fear immunity is not immunity to everything, but it's still reliant on someone else dealing your damage for you.

I'm sure a Paladin will be able to deal damage on his own. The Justiciar's strong defenses synergize well with the Divine Challenge, too.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-23, 06:26 PM
Yet, remember lussmanj's experience with playing. It's going to be much less about the monsters you fight, and much more about the TACTICS you use. What use is the justiciar worth if I'm giving a magical self refilling arrow vulcan for my goblins to rip you to shreds? If what reviews we've seen and lussmanj's experience are to be trusted, something on that order of creativity is going to be pretty much required for optimized PC's.

Oslecamo
2008-04-23, 06:58 PM
+1 at level 10 is a joke in 3e. Seriously, go look at the Rogue preview, its Sneak Attack goes from 2d6 at level 1 to 5d6 by level 30. That should tell you that the power increases won't be anywhere NEAR the 3e level in many areas.

That's precisely why my next sentence was that wizards was playing it safe in 4e.

In 3e not only sneack attack rises up to 10d6 by level 20, it applies to each individual attack.

This means that it's pretty easy to rise the rogue's damage potential. An extra weapon here, an haste there, monk dip, and voila, total of 60d6 in a full attack by level 20.


In 4e, the sneack attack extra damage applies once per round. End of story. No geting extra attacks. Well, we have the assassin paragon path wich grants an extra 1d6. When the enemy is bloodied. Doesn't really leaves much space for whacky builds, since the only way to get an enemy bloodied is taking half of his HP so far.

It's not just the lack of big bonuses. We also haven't seen powers whose power is easily increasable in 4e so far, like doubling this or ignoring that.

Ascension
2008-04-23, 07:21 PM
It's strange, but it seems like in many ways (like the aforementioned rogue thing) 4E will actually manage to be less epic in 30 levels than 3E was in 20. True, we haven't really seen anything for 20-30 yet, but unless there's truly a major jump in power between level 20 and level 21 4E seems to be powering down a little.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-23, 07:23 PM
We won't get wizards creating universes at level 21, that's for sure.

JaxGaret
2008-04-23, 07:41 PM
It's strange, but it seems like in many ways (like the aforementioned rogue thing) 4E will actually manage to be less epic in 30 levels than 3E was in 20. True, we haven't really seen anything for 20-30 yet, but unless there's truly a major jump in power between level 20 and level 21 4E seems to be powering down a little.

It's possible that the designers of 4e took the "levels 4-12 seem to be the sweet spot of 3e" idea to heart and expanded it to become the scope of most of the levels in 4e.

I.e. 1st level 4e characters are closer to 4th level 3e characters, and 20+ level 4e characters are closer to 12th level 3e characters. EDIT: Which is fine by me, btw. Don't want some pro-4e people jumping down my throat from some perceived slight against their perfect edition.

The Epic progressions might be significantly stronger than the Paragon progressions, though. We'll find out soon enough.

Rutee
2008-04-23, 07:44 PM
It's strange, but it seems like in many ways (like the aforementioned rogue thing) 4E will actually manage to be less epic in 30 levels than 3E was in 20. True, we haven't really seen anything for 20-30 yet, but unless there's truly a major jump in power between level 20 and level 21 4E seems to be powering down a little.

What makes the Rogue less epic? That they're not throwing a fistful of d6s? If their damage is still relatively similar (Because we know that damage output and max HP is dropping..) Granted, a Rogue will deal less damage. But Epic isn't solely in the numbers, or by definition the most epic game ever would be like, Valkyrie Profile or something, where you deal millions of damage in a combo.

wodan46
2008-04-23, 07:46 PM
In order to convert a 4th edition level to a 3rd edition level of the same power, take the square root of the 4th edition level, then multiply by 3.

As such, low level characters are less likely to die horribly at low levels, and can fight through 5 encounters a day. High level characters are powerful, but not capable of gamebreaking.

I think I like that. Throughout the whole game, you fight monsters with interesting abilities with power on par with you, but you are able to beat them, recover a bit, and then beat them 4 more times in the day. Its not because you are vastly more powerful than them, but because you have more abilities than they do, and a few times a day you can drop one that does double or triple the effect, but you have to know when to use it and how to use it effectively.

JaxGaret
2008-04-23, 07:49 PM
In order to convert a 4th edition level to a 3rd edition level of the same power, take the square root of the 4th edition level, then multiply by 3.

Is that off the top of your head, or is there a source for it?

It seems pretty close to what I was just suggesting. Going by my suggestion, it would be closer to "take the square root, multiply by 4, subtract 4". I'll have to check the math on that when 4e actually comes out.


I think I like that. Throughout the whole game, you fight monsters with interesting abilities with power on par with you, but you are able to beat them, recover a bit, and then beat them 4 more times in the day. Its not because you are vastly more powerful than them, but because you have more abilities than they do, and a few times a day you can drop one that does double or triple the effect, but you have to know when to use it and how to use it effectively.

You don't use NPCs with class levels?

EvilElitest
2008-04-23, 07:55 PM
I'm sorry, it's just that there's so many people around who declare full knowledge of all 4e's mechanics based on a few sentences that it's getting hard to recognize those who are more reasonable in their reaction :smallfrown:

There are also over zealous 4E defenders who will do what ever it takes to prove any nay sayers wrong

on the topic, while i'm slightly inclined to agree with ChosenofVecna's idea of what was cool about PrC, other than that i'm generally neutral with paragon paths, but i rather like the humor in that description
from
EE

wodan46
2008-04-23, 08:14 PM
Square root * 4 - 4 yields (level 1) 4edition = (level 0) 3.5edition, while at the high end of the spectrum, it yields (level 30) 4edition = (level 18) 3.5 edition.

Square root * 3 yields (level 1) 4edition = (level 3) 3.5 edition, and (level 30) 4edition = (level 16) 3.5 edition.

Yours yields mildly higher results at the high end, but substantially lower results at the low end.

I argue that a level 1 character in 4th edition, who already has hit points in the twenties and a variety of basic powers, is equivalent to a level 3 character in 3.5. At level 9, the 4th edition character is equal to that of a level 9 3.5 edition character, and this happens to be right around the sweet spot for adventuring. 4th edition characters than slouch off at higher levels, until a level 30 4th is equal to a level 16 3.5.

In short, when comparing 4th edition to 3.5, characters start out stronger, end weaker, and spend more time around the sweet spot.

Which is good.

JaxGaret
2008-04-23, 08:17 PM
In short, when comparing 4th edition to 3.5, characters start out stronger, end weaker, and spend more time around the sweet spot.

Which is good.

Agreed, it is good from a gaming perspective.

It is yet to be seen if it will tend to make the game exhibit less verisimilitude.

skywalker
2008-04-23, 08:21 PM
I like it. That is, surprisingly, all I have to say.

Wow. :smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-04-23, 08:25 PM
I just hope the "Weaker" is something more like "Smaller numbers" and not "Less ability", for the non-full casters. That is, a Rogue, flavorwise, hides just as well at level 20 in 4 as they do in 3.5, there's just fewer plusses.

wodan46
2008-04-23, 08:50 PM
Skills are the noncombat part of the game, which was for the most part balanced other than that there were way too many skills that were way too specific, which was corrected. Its not very easy to see how much skills have been changed.

However, to whatever extent the level 20 rogue has less ability to hide, so do the does the perceptive abilities of monsters looking for it.

A party of level 25 4th edition characters may be equivalent to a party of level 15 3.5 edition characters, but a level 25 encounter in 4th edition would be in equivalent in danger to a level 15 in 3.5 edition as well.

wodan46
2008-04-23, 08:54 PM
Skills are the noncombat part of the game, which was for the most part balanced other than that there were way too many skills that were way too specific, which was corrected. Its not very easy to see how much skills have been changed.

However, to whatever extent the level 20 rogue has less ability to hide, so do the does the perceptive abilities of monsters looking for it.

A party of level 25 4th edition characters may be equivalent to a party of level 15 3.5 edition characters, but a level 25 encounter in 4th edition would be in equivalent in danger to a level 15 in 3.5 edition as well.

Also, Jaxgaret, you used the wrong word. Verisimilitude means truth. You are looking for a similarly spelled word that means something like variety/texture/distinction.

In that regards, while the difference in character strength from level to level is diminished, the variety of character abilities and development will be much higher, and the same is true of the monster variety and tactics.

JaxGaret
2008-04-23, 09:24 PM
Also, Jaxgaret, you used the wrong word. Verisimilitude means truth. You are looking for a similarly spelled word that means something like variety/texture/distinction.

No, I meant verisimilitude, in this sense:


The quality of appearing to be true or real.

wodan46
2008-04-23, 09:28 PM
Agreed, it is good from a gaming perspective.

It is yet to be seen if it will tend to make the game exhibit less real.

What would that mean?

Mewtarthio
2008-04-24, 12:17 AM
No, I meant verisimilitude, in this sense:

I'm not sure if verisimilitude is the issue here. You did use the word correctly, it's just that we don't have dragons, gods, or epic heroes in the real world, so we don't have any way to tell if they're portrayed appropriately. If an army of commoners can mob a god to death, then it's just because the fantasy setting has weak physical gods.

Now, if an army of rogues gets hit by a nuclear warhead and one-in-twenty survive unharmed due to Evasion, then we have verisimilitude issues. Something powerful enough to wipe out an entire city should not be dodgeable, regardless of luck or skill, yet the rules say that rogues have a 5% chance of dodging the explosion. The simulation has broken down, and our suspension of disbelief is seriously threatened. That's a loss of verisimilitude.

Crow
2008-04-24, 12:52 AM
Uck...As a DM, I hate abilities that do auto-damage each round, especially when more that one player is using them.

It's just a book-keeping nightmare.

Rockphed
2008-04-24, 12:53 AM
Uck...As a DM, I hate abilities that do auto-damage each round, especially when more that one player is using them.

It's just a book-keeping nightmare.

Then make the players keep the books(I.E. if they forget about their ability, it doesn't happen).

Oslecamo
2008-04-24, 07:40 AM
Now, if an army of rogues gets hit by a nuclear warhead and one-in-twenty survive unharmed due to Evasion, then we have verisimilitude issues. Something powerful enough to wipe out an entire city should not be dodgeable, regardless of luck or skill, yet the rules say that rogues have a 5% chance of dodging the explosion. The simulation has broken down, and our suspension of disbelief is seriously threatened. That's a loss of verisimilitude.

Wow, I must have missed that rule. Where is it? Complete weapons of mass destruction?

Because I'm free to make a nuclear explosion who deals half radioactive damage and that half doesn't allow a reflex save for half damage.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-24, 11:16 AM
Wow, I must have missed that rule. Where is it? Complete weapons of mass destruction?

That was just hypothetical. You could do the same argument for, say, the explosion that fills the entire 10x10 foot room.

Artanis
2008-04-24, 11:19 AM
Wow, I must have missed that rule. Where is it? Complete weapons of mass destruction?

Because I'm free to make a nuclear explosion who deals half radioactive damage and that half doesn't allow a reflex save for half damage.
Locate City Bomb :smallbiggrin:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-24, 11:49 AM
Locate City Bomb :smallbiggrin:

Which isn't actually a bomb at all. Just a magical effect that causes anyone who fails two saves to be thrown around. Does 0 AoE damage.

JBento
2008-04-24, 12:27 PM
It's actually a bomb. With Explosive spell, it even deals more damage the closer you are to ground zero.

JaxGaret
2008-04-24, 03:04 PM
Locate City Bomb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72212)


That was just hypothetical. You could do the same argument for, say, the explosion that fills the entire 10x10 foot room.

The decription of Fireball doesn't say that it would completely fill an entire 10'x10' room if it went off in it.

I would say that a nuke going off near you would deal a good amount of automatic damage, cause to to make multiple Fort saves (radiation poisoning + to avoid simply getting torn apart by the shockwave), plus a Reflex save for part of the damage - the actual physical explosion damage.

horseboy
2008-04-25, 12:46 AM
Meh, unimpressed. Especially with Kensai. I mean, making it through 11 levels to get Weapon Focus? Meh. The action point thing is so situational in it being better than just spending the point for a second attack I can't think of a use for it. (Given that fumbles are bad, and 4th has removed bad things, I've not seen anything about them in anything)
Though I do like getting to switch weapon focus to the +3 bec-de-corbin you just found.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 12:54 AM
It's actually a bomb. With Explosive spell, it even deals more damage the closer you are to ground zero.

It's not a Bomb, it doesn't do any damage to objects, and if you set it off in the middle of new york half the people would be fine and the other half would bang in to a wall and keep walking.

It's not a bomb.

tyckspoon
2008-04-25, 12:59 AM
Meh, unimpressed. Especially with Kensai. I mean, making it through 11 levels to get Weapon Focus? Meh. The action point thing is so situational in it being better than just spending the point for a second attack I can't think of a use for it. (Given that fumbles are bad, and 4th has removed bad things, I've not seen anything about them in anything)
Though I do like getting to switch weapon focus to the +3 bec-de-corbin you just found.

The apparent aim of getting smaller bonuses system-wide (level based bonus at level 11 is only going to be +5, for example) means that +1 may well be meaningful. Not as impressive as some of the other Paragon features previewed, but still useful. Re-rolling an attack roll is potentially quite good- consider the possibility of just having missed with a (non-Reliable) Encounter or Daily power. That could be the difference between actually Defending somebody and watching your squishes eat a few d8. And it's not just for attack rolls; I imagine it will get used for skill and ability checks at least as often as for attacks.

skywalker
2008-04-25, 01:04 AM
Then make the players keep the books(I.E. if they forget about their ability, it doesn't happen).

This is how it has always worked in all of my gaming groups. It is up to the cleric to keep track of area-buffs they've cast(is this the correct past tense?) etc. Which usually means one of these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) happens about twice to three times a session. It is kinda funny, tho.

Since I haven't made a snarky comment about 4e today, here's one:

You know you can use Wizard's handy new DM tools to keep track of stuff like that, right? :smallconfused:

horseboy
2008-04-25, 01:19 AM
The apparent aim of getting smaller bonuses system-wide (level based bonus at level 11 is only going to be +5, for example) means that +1 may well be meaningful. Not as impressive as some of the other Paragon features previewed, but still useful.Given the number of +1's WotC has been throwing around I really don't see yet another as meaningful.

Re-rolling an attack roll is potentially quite good- consider the possibility of just having missed with a (non-Reliable) Encounter or Daily power. That could be the difference between actually Defending somebody and watching your squishes eat a few d8. And it's not just for attack rolls; I imagine it will get used for skill and ability checks at least as often as for attacks.Most of the fighter's displayed powers are reliable. If, say, a warlord got a hold of such an ability, yeah it could be powerful.

Rutee
2008-04-25, 01:29 AM
Given the number of +1's WotC has been throwing around I really don't see yet another as meaningful.
Most of the fighter's displayed powers are reliable. If, say, a warlord got a hold of such an ability, yeah it could be powerful.

Only the Daily was Reliable..

And we won't know how good a +1 is going to be yet, honestly. Yet. But that's a good point.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-25, 01:54 AM
You know you can use Wizard's handy new DM tools to keep track of stuff like that, right? :smallconfused:

Of course! It all makes sense now!

Kurald Galain
2008-04-25, 03:47 AM
And we won't know how good a +1 is going to be yet, honestly. Yet. But that's a good point.

Yes, we do. Since checks are made on 1d20, a +1 is going to be a 5% difference. Which means that in the vast majority of the cases, they won't have a noticeable effect.

Rutee
2008-04-25, 04:14 AM
Yes, we do. Since checks are made on 1d20, a +1 is going to be a 5% difference. Which means that in the vast majority of the cases, they won't have a noticeable effect.

No, we don't. A +1 isn't a 5% bonus to your roll. It's a 5% bonus to an otherwise unmodified roll. It becomes a smaller overall bonus as the number of +s piles up.

However, I find it rather odd that you would say that a +1 is unimportant even if it was 'just' a 5% increase. 5% is only an insignificant increase if all other possible increases are much better.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-25, 04:36 AM
No, we don't. A +1 isn't a 5% bonus to your roll. It's a 5% bonus to an otherwise unmodified roll. It becomes a smaller overall bonus as the number of +s piles up.
I must be in a morbo mood today, but statistics do not work that way. At least, not on a flat d20 roll. On, say, a 3d6 roll, a +1 bonus can have a varying percentile effect depending on what your target number is, but on 1d20 not so.



However, I find it rather odd that you would say that a +1 is unimportant even if it was 'just' a 5% increase. 5% is only an insignificant increase if all other possible increases are much better.
No, it is insignificant because it is much, much less than the variance on the die roll. 95% of the time, it will not make a difference.

Rutee
2008-04-25, 04:59 AM
I must be in a morbo mood today, but statistics do not work that way. At least, not on a flat d20 roll. On, say, a 3d6 roll, a +1 bonus can have a varying percentile effect depending on what your target number is, but on 1d20 not so.
You would be morboing wrong.

+1 has a smaller role in a 1d20 + 10 roll then it does in a 1d20 roll. Either way, it's technically a +5% adjustment, but adding 5% to 100% is a 5% increase; Adding 5% to, say, 165% (1d20 +13) is only a 3% net increase (Because .05 is only 3% of 1.65)



No, it is insignificant because it is much, much less than the variance on the die roll. 95% of the time, it will not make a difference.

Okay; By this logic, all non-multiplied bonuses in DnD are irrelevant. Every last one. You roll almost every to hit check and save on a straight d20, f'rex, against a DC of 10. The whole point of a +1 is to stack it with other +1s (The same holds true for any other +X, where X is a straight integer. Things start getting confuzzling when you add +X and +Y%, though I don't think that's an issue in DnD). The question, therefore, is less the total effect of 1 +1, but how many of those +1s you want (or need). One +1 may seem insignificant, but a flippant attitude towards them where you dump each and every +1 you get could leave you rather screwed. Certainly, it's less impressive then other individual abilities, but it's not necessarily insignificant either, unless most 4e bonuses do each legitimately come in much larger bonuses then +1. That is, if you're normally stacking +2X, +2X, +2X from each source, +X actually does start to look crappy.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-25, 05:14 AM
+1 has a smaller role in a 1d20 + 10 roll then it does in a 1d20 roll.
Incorrect. In both cases, you succeed in your roll 5% more of the time. Applying percentages to the percentages is a confusing measure (that's a common trick in advertising, actually). The only time when the +1 has a smaller role is when you already have a 0% or 100% chance to succeed regardless of the modifier.


Okay; By this logic, all non-multiplied bonuses in DnD are irrelevant.
Incorrect. Around +3 to +5, the bonuses become noticeably relevant, depending on how often the stat is used; at that point, they reasonably often make a difference, which a +1 does not.

Incidentally, this is why skill training gives a +5 in 4E, why the save bonus feats were increased between 3.0 and 3.5, and why weapon focus in 3E is considered a poor choice for a feat. And yes, you can stack a number of irrelevant bonuses into a relevant one. Relevance is not binary, it is a sliding scale.

Artanis
2008-04-25, 11:29 AM
Say you add another +1 to a roll. For this example, I'll use an attack modifier.

If that +1 takes you from 1 successes per 20 rolls to 2 successes, you go from 5% to 10%, yes. If that +1 takes you from 10 successes per 20 rolls to 11, you go from 50% to 55%.

However, say each attack does 10 damage and the target has 100 hp. Going from 1 to 2 increases your damage output per 20 attacks from 10 to 20, so you double your damage output, and thereby reduce the average number of attacks to kill the enemy from 200 to 100. Going from 10 to 11 increases your damage output per 20 attacks from 100 to 110, which is only a 10% increase, thereby reducing the number of attacks to kill the enemy from 20 to ~18. So the relative effect that another +1 has on the end result - in this case being how fast the enemy dies - decreases the higher you start.


There's also the problem of overkill. If your attack modifier is already so f***ing huge that you hit on anything except a natural one anyways, then tacking on another +1 won't do squat. If your attack modifier is NOT that high, then tacking on another +1 will have an effect.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-25, 11:42 AM
That being said, in situations where you do autohit on a natural one, your enemy will likely be weak enough that you only bother with at-will powers. When the plusses actually make a different, you'll be relying on limited resources (ie encounter and daily powers), so you'll want to be as certain as possible that you don't waste your action.

fendrin
2008-04-25, 02:40 PM
Incorrect. In both cases, you succeed in your roll 5% more of the time. Applying percentages to the percentages is a confusing measure (that's a common trick in advertising, actually). The only time when the +1 has a smaller role is when you already have a 0% or 100% chance to succeed regardless of the modifier.

The giant says: Math is Fun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)

Where you see a difference really is over time. That is, assume it takes 2 hits for you to kill a monster (ignoring, for the sake of argument, the effects of variable damage).

Lets say you have a 1d20 attack and the monster's AC is a measly 10.
{table=head]Attack | chance of hitting monster | chance of having killed monster on or before this round
1 | 50% | 0% (because it takes 2 hits)
2 | 50% | 25%
3 | 50% | 50%
4 | 50% | 69%
5 | 50% | 81%[/table]

Now compare that with if you have a 1d20+1 attack:
{table=head]Attack | chance of hitting monster | chance of having killed monster on or before this round
1 | 55% | 0% (because it takes 2 hits)
2 | 55% | 30%
3 | 55% | 57%
4 | 55% | 76%
5 | 55% | 87%[/table]

as you can see, though the difference of each hit remains at 5%, over time it varies.

To make it more extreme, lets look at the difference of needing at least 20 hits (lots of mooks, perhaps) with 30 chances. Without the +1 you have about a 5% chance. With the bonus you have a 13.5% chance. Big difference, neh?

calculations provided by this (http://faculty.vassar.edu/lowry/binomialX.html) site

Crow
2008-04-25, 06:06 PM
I'm not trying to get involved, but I just want to say that was a cool little calculation =)

fendrin
2008-04-26, 07:08 AM
I'm not trying to get involved, but I just want to say that was a cool little calculation =)

Why thankee! the website I linked to did the heavy lifting.

Speaking of heavy lifting, I admire your workouts. Crossfit is at the intersection of awesome and scary; such that I would do it if I had somebody who knew the techniques well enough to make sure I wouldn't, you know, horribly maim myself.
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