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StoryKeeper
2008-04-23, 07:38 PM
So, how would you stat out Sweeney Todd? If none of your group has seen the play or movie, or if you're just really good at keeping them from guessing it outright, Mr. Todd could make a nice gruesome NPC.

I'm thinking a few levels of expert with ranks in profession (barber), at least a level in bard, and then take the prestige class Avenging Executioner (complete scoundrel) and maybe Dirge Singer (libris mortis.) He'd probably have a maxed out dexterity score as well. Maybe take the leadership feat and have a cohort (Misses Lovette.)

Any thoughts?

Ascension
2008-04-23, 07:46 PM
That would be a fairly weak build, but would suit him pretty well. He should be significantly higher level than the party to make up for having NPC levels. Note that you'll have to work to optimize that jumble of classes in order to make him a worthy challenge. Use dagger statistics for the razor (except keep it slashing, no piercing damage) and give him snowflake wardance and TWF since he'll be a bard wielding light slashing weapons. Keep CHA high. Insanity or no, he certainly has a presence.

Although the Avenging Executioner flavor fits, I might just take him straight bard with the above feats et al. Profession is on their class skill list, IIRC.

SilverClawShift
2008-04-23, 07:57 PM
Sweeney Todd wouldn't need much to be realistically statted out. He didn't do all THAT much.

A single rogue level would probably be enough. 1d6 Sneak attack with a straight razor (1d3 slashing?) and say +1 strength damage, on a commoner with a handfull of hitpoints? Make him a level 3 rogue for 2d6 sneak attack to be sure.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-23, 07:59 PM
Considering his victims seemed to be in a barber chair and didn't suspect a thing, he probably got coup de grace on them, too. So Rogue 1 should work fine.

Ascension
2008-04-23, 08:00 PM
Well, I was assuming he wanted Todd to be up to encountering the PCs. Sure, he can slaughter commoners with impunity no matter what class he's got, but if he wants to stand up to more well equipped foes...

StoryKeeper
2008-04-23, 08:13 PM
He would probably be best suited for a low to medium level encounter in which he focused mainly on coup de gracing/ sneak attacking his customers. I mean, you want him to last through the first couple of attacks, but he did get sneak attacked and killed by a kid. It would be nice to have him kill off a few NPCs the PCs were more or less attached to, and then let them kill him only to have him return as some sort of undead (ghost maybe? Many possibilities there.) As an undead, he would be strong enough to challenge the PCs at slightly higher levels, and would be able to have some monstrous friends working with him.

skywalker
2008-04-23, 08:19 PM
Although the Avenging Executioner flavor fits, I might just take him straight bard with the above feats et al. Profession is on their class skill list, IIRC.

Profession is on everyone's class skill list. It's just that everyone also has "adventurer" as their profession.

Ascension
2008-04-23, 08:22 PM
Profession is on everyone's class skill list. It's just that everyone also has "adventurer" as their profession.

Not barbarians or fighters.

Arakune
2008-04-23, 08:25 PM
Not barbarians or fighters.

Close, they got Profession: Dead Meat and Profession: Redskirt as bonus class skills after level 15th. For barbarians is optional.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-23, 08:57 PM
Considering his victims seemed to be in a barber chair and didn't suspect a thing, he probably got coup de grace on them, too. So Rogue 1 should work fine.

A coup de grace requires you to pretty much put your blade on a vital spot and thrust downward. Remember, it's a full-round action, so we're talking a good six seconds of lining up the killing blow. Todd's attacks would be in a suprise round, so he's fighting a flat-footed opponent, which means full sneak attack damage and no Dex to AC.

Ascension
2008-04-23, 09:03 PM
If he can spend the prep time shaving them, it might be an assassin's death attack.

Dode
2008-04-23, 09:11 PM
Commoner w/ Skill Focus (Profession: Barber) and maybe Improved Initiative and Death Blow so he can coup-de-gras as a standard action

EvilElitest
2008-04-23, 09:12 PM
Commoner w/ Skill Focus (Profession: Barber)

Expert would be better but yeah
from
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Pyroconstruct
2008-04-23, 10:24 PM
Exemplar! He shaves that well! Remember the scene in the street where he out-performs that other Barber, that really seems like a use of the Exemplar to use Profession: Barber for Diplomancy.

Grey Watcher
2008-04-23, 10:44 PM
Well, remember, he DID escape from Botany Bay and make it all the way from Australia to England. It was apparently quite the adventure, since, at least in the stage show, Anthony mentions having found him "pitching and tossing" on a raft. That's gotta be worth at least a few levels.

I'm gonna agree that the most accurate build would be Expert/Exemplar. Max out Profession: Barber, Bluff, maybe Disguise (the only person to actually recognize him is Mrs. Lovett, and even she isn't sure until she sees his reaction to her story about Lucy). Todd's whole menace is that you don't see him coming. In a straight fight, he's nothing special. An encounter or adventure based around Todd should be less of a kick-in-the-door affair and more of a mystery. Remember, Lovett and Todd are cautious enough to pick "strangers and such like what won't be missed," the PCs might not be coming into it investigating a "rash of disappearences", but a single one, discovering the rest as part of the adventure.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-23, 11:13 PM
and then let them kill him only to have him return as some sort of undead (ghost maybe? Many possibilities there.)Mohrg (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm). Definately a Mohrg (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm).

Reaper_Monkey
2008-04-24, 07:44 AM
Mohrg (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm). Definately a Mohrg (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm).

That nails it perfectly! You can even have it that the in-game story picks up from where the play leaves off... hes already a Mohrg and has started up killing people again, although now maybe a few years later. Someone was talking about disguise, which could help him go mostly unnoticed if hes a nice looking zombie... but even if hes not it could be put into a very jack-the-ripper esque villian, poping up in a victorian london styled city at the dead of night, leaving slashed necks which are identified as being from razors..

From then on the mystery is how and why, and how to find him (and survive his ambush attacks) and stop him, as the murders keep increasing?

togapika
2008-04-24, 08:20 AM
In dragon 231 there's the Barber prestige class from Al' Quadim

Roderick_BR
2008-04-24, 09:12 AM
I didn't see it yet. Does he even fight or something? By what I heard, it is more a musical/suspense/horror/thriller movie/act than an adventure one.
The challenge would be to find him, not fight him. Maybe just enough levels in expert and rogue so he doesn't drop in the first hit.

Sleet
2008-04-24, 09:23 AM
He's straight rogue. Lots of Profession (barber), lots of Bluff. Edit: I'm unfamiliar with the Exemplar class, but it seems appropriate based on what folks here say.


A coup de grace requires you to pretty much put your blade on a vital spot...

Have you seen a barber shave someone with a straight razor? Because that's exactly what he does.

The Extinguisher
2008-04-24, 09:33 AM
I mean, you want him to last through the first couple of attacks, but he did get sneak attacked and killed by a kid.

He actually let Toby kill him.
/nitpick.

Just wanted to point that out.

TempusCCK
2008-04-24, 12:49 PM
I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo? Kind of like "High School Musical" is really "Grease 2006"? Why not just stat out an evil version of the Count of Monte Cristo and have an elaborate set up for your PC's to either expose or fall victim too. Even more fun, have the entire thing orchastrated by the count, with your PC's as the henchmen, planning and plotting along with the Count, and executing along with him as well. I think that'd be cool as hell.

TehJhu
2008-04-24, 12:55 PM
Look up the Avenging Executioner from Comp. Scoundrel.

There you go.

Hzurr
2008-04-24, 01:06 PM
I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo? Kind of like "High School Musical" is really "Grease 2006"? Why not just stat out an evil version of the Count of Monte Cristo and have an elaborate set up for your PC's to either expose or fall victim too. Even more fun, have the entire thing orchastrated by the count, with your PC's as the henchmen, planning and plotting along with the Count, and executing along with him as well. I think that'd be cool as hell.

I could see where you could make that argument, but it's a biiiiig stretch. I'll put the rest in spoilers, in case anyone hasn't seen the musical (and if you get a chance, watch the stage version over the movie version. It's significantly better, and funnier, and scarier).
The parts that are similar to Count of Monte Cristo, is that another guy (although not his friend like in CoMC) lusts after Sweeney Todd's (it wasn't his name at the time) wife, so gets him falsely arrested and sent to Australia. Todd escapes, and makes it back to London to exact his revenge. This is where the similarities stop between the two.(And this part is all summed up in the first 5 minutes of Sweeney Todd). Todd is completely evil, and out for revenge, and never reaches for forgiveness or anything like that as was in CoMC. Also, THERE IS CANNIBALISM! And repeated, unrepentant murder. Good times...

StoryKeeper
2008-04-24, 04:04 PM
I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo? Kind of like "High School Musical" is really "Grease 2006"? Why not just stat out an evil version of the Count of Monte Cristo and have an elaborate set up for your PC's to either expose or fall victim too. Even more fun, have the entire thing orchastrated by the count, with your PC's as the henchmen, planning and plotting along with the Count, and executing along with him as well. I think that'd be cool as hell.

What Hzurr said, although I really liked your idea. Perhaps you could split the difference. Perhaps they help Sweeney get his revenge without knowing the full extent of his depravity. Or maybe they honestly think they're just sending people in to get a shave.

As for whether or not to have him be mohrg at the beginning or not... that's a hard one. On one hand, it fits him so perfectly that it's hard not to make him one right off the bat. On the other hand, if the PCs know him in life, it kind of gives you the feeling that you witnessed his creation or even took part in it somehow... decisions decisions...

Sleet
2008-04-24, 06:19 PM
I actually just heard about that movie today, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it just a lamer version of the Count of Monte Cristo?

Only in the sense that both are revenge stories.

Aquillion
2008-04-24, 06:23 PM
As for whether or not to have him be mohrg at the beginning or not... that's a hard one. On one hand, it fits him so perfectly that it's hard not to make him one right off the bat. On the other hand, if the PCs know him in life, it kind of gives you the feeling that you witnessed his creation or even took part in it somehow... decisions decisions...Definitely have him alive first. Returning villians can be fun, and while you can go easily from live barber to Mohrg, you can't really go in the other direction too believably (it doesn't seem likely anyone with the resources would go to the trouble of having him resurrected.)

nargbop
2008-04-25, 12:55 PM
The Sweeney character is not a high-level one, but to make someone similar who's interesting to play against... I would make a campaign that starts at level one, urban, make enough interesting side-quests and misdirections so that the PCs meet Todd by level 4. I would make the PCs feel maybe just a little supportive for Sweeney until they met the evil little something-or-other.
Sweeney Todd - 2 Rogue / 3 Bard / 1 Avenging Executioner
4 ranks in profession (barber) , maxxed bluff, maxxed hide and move silent, maxxed perform (sing), some DisDev to show his mechanical abilities
STR 10 DEX 18 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 14

Take the feat that allows you to combine Rogue and Bard for sneak attack and bardic music. Forget what it's called, it and similar feats are in Complete Scoundrel.

Sleet
2008-04-25, 10:45 PM
How are people figuring bard levels? It's a musical, everyone sings. That doesn't make everyone a bard, it just means they're living in a musical.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 10:50 PM
Exactly, thus everyone was investing skill points into perform (sing). Had they put the points into sense motive, maybe they wouldn't have been butchered. :smallbiggrin:

Also, it is implied that Sweeney hears music in his head, and thus might gain some musical ability after years of singing back to himself.

Talic
2008-04-26, 12:29 AM
I'm gonna agree that the most accurate build would be Expert/Exemplar. Max out Profession: Barber, Bluff, maybe Disguise (the only person to actually recognize him is Mrs. Lovett, and even she isn't sure until she sees his reaction to her story about Lucy).

Pirelli also recognized him, after the barber challenge.

But agreed, the only people who knew him were people who knew him well. The very judge that sent him away didn't notice him... Of course, that may be because he was thrown out as a minor obstacle, barely noticed.

FlyMolo
2008-04-26, 12:39 AM
Sweeny Todd, Sweeney Todd.

Cleric of Erythnul. Possibly Favored Soul? Ranks in Prof(barber), duh. And there's a gnome war razor statted around here somewhere. I saw it just now.

So EWP(that)

monty
2008-04-26, 12:40 AM
I'm currently in the middle of watching the movie for the first time; maybe I'll have something to say about it after this.

Pronounceable
2008-04-26, 12:58 PM
How long do you take when shaving with a razor? It takes the barbers around here a few minutes. I just checked, it takes Mr Todd about 3 seconds in the barber challenge.

He has a ridiculously high skill. I'd say epic, but not certain how exactly prof(barber) works. There's gotta be something that grants him more ranks than level+3, and skill focus doesn't cut it.

hamishspence
2008-04-26, 01:53 PM
The Demon Barber: hmm, can imagine him coming back as a Real Demon barber. sound fun?

StoryKeeper
2008-04-26, 02:01 PM
Perhaps, though I also like the idea of perhaps having the equivelant of Misses Lovette being the demon. She did, after all, sort of guide him a bit along the path of badness.

I think the mohrg thing would fit him personally better, but to have him aided by some demons would be very appropriate as well.

Pandaren
2008-04-26, 03:23 PM
Back to the bard thing, I hear he didn't even sing that well, the kid was the strongest voice in the whole movie, I'd stick with rouge, even though a commoner could probably coup de grace other commoners.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-26, 04:19 PM
In the movie maybe, but I was thinking in terms of Sweeney from all performances in general. In the musicals, there was a line from the opening song that goes something like "Sweeney heard music that nobody heard." This implies that the reason the whole thing is a musical, is that it is from Sweeney's point of view, and that he sees everything as a musical. He might start singing with the musical that is his life, thus developing levels of bard.

Of course, it all comes down to how you want to do it. You can have the Sweeney that speaks in songs, singing to music only he hears, or you can have the simple barber with the murderous streak and take away the singing all together.

I think I like the idea of giving him a few levels of commoner, a single level or perhaps two of bard, and a single level of rogue for sneak attack to ensure that he can kill off his commoner customers.
Rogue really does fit beyond sneak attack, as he somehow managed to escape prison which would require some rather rogueish skills.

Aquillion
2008-04-26, 04:38 PM
How long do you take when shaving with a razor? It takes the barbers around here a few minutes. I just checked, it takes Mr Todd about 3 seconds in the barber challenge.Time Stop.

He UMDed a scroll of Time Stop or something. Or maybe he's a Swiftblade and used their class ability to turn Haste into Time Stop. Then, he also used Celerity or a Belt of Battle on each of the turns gained from Time Stop.

Collyer-san
2008-04-26, 06:04 PM
Pirelli also recognized him, after the barber challenge.

But agreed, the only people who knew him were people who knew him well. The very judge that sent him away didn't notice him... Of course, that may be because he was thrown out as a minor obstacle, barely noticed.

Pirelli Himself only recognised Todd due to the Unique Razors that todd used.

The Razors themselves would probebly be at least +2, Possibly Vorpal...

Grey Watcher
2008-04-26, 06:27 PM
In the movie maybe, but I was thinking in terms of Sweeney from all performances in general. In the musicals, there was a line from the opening song that goes something like "Sweeney heard music that nobody heard." This implies that the reason the whole thing is a musical, is that it is from Sweeney's point of view, and that he sees everything as a musical. He might start singing with the musical that is his life, thus developing levels of bard.

I actually interpreted that a little less... literally. More like some twisted version of "he marches to the beat of his own drummer," as opposed to "Sweeney's delusional, and hears half of what people are saying as music."