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AKA_Bait
2008-04-24, 01:23 PM
So, my gaming group this weekend will be fighting the following:

Szass Tam
Umberlee
A bunch of minions

The party, on average, is ECL 21 or so. All spell casters have access to 9th level spells. We are:

Elven Scout
Human Iniatiate of the 7 Fold Veil
Human Exhalted Warmage
Human Bard/Cleric/Paladin of Freedom (me)
Dwarven Fighter/ShadowdancerlikePRC
Elven Seeker of the Song
Drow Monk

So, any ideas on how we can make this fly?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-24, 01:34 PM
The normal favoured method of killing deities is to drop a precipitate complete breach from the Outlands on them, thus denying them any magical or divine abilities, and then engaging in fisticuffs with them. Problem is, the Outlands doesn't exist in the FR. Any way you could bust your way through to the Great Wheel first?

Another method would be the quintessence stasis method (my personal favourite). With no psionic types in your party, you'd be hard pressed to find enough of the stuff, but if you can find a large vat of quintessence, take the first opportunity you can to dump it over Umberlees' head, freezing her in time.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-24, 01:40 PM
The normal favoured method of killing deities is to drop a precipitate complete breach from the Outlands on them, thus denying them any magical or divine abilities, and then engaging in fisticuffs with them. Problem is, the Outlands doesn't exist in the FR. Any way you could bust your way through to the Great Wheel first?

Another method would be the quintessence stasis method (my personal favourite). With no psionic types in your party, you'd be hard pressed to find enough of the stuff, but if you can find a large vat of quintessence, take the first opportunity you can to dump it over Umberlees' head, freezing her in time.

Yeah. Sadly, neither of those are going to be options. We are squarely in FR and have no quintessence. We also have very little time to prepare.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-24, 01:48 PM
Ah, OK then. I'd recommend striking hard and fast, then possibly using some gated-in nastiness. I'm sure that you could justify bringing a Chichimec or two, since they could be the spawn of her air aspect. If you can seperate Tam from Umberlee, then that might help; I might be more worried about him, to be honest, given that he's a high level wizard.

Another thing - just try to deal MASSIVE DAMAGE vs. a deity; their saves, defences, and immunities are too good.

Frosty
2008-04-24, 01:49 PM
You have a Drow MONK in the same party as an Iot7V? Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of optimization. Do Monk and Drow SR even stack?

AKA_Bait
2008-04-24, 01:54 PM
You have a Drow MONK in the same party as an Iot7V? Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of optimization. Do Monk and Drow SR even stack?

I don't know. I think they do, or it as houseruled that they do.

We do have a very wide gap in optimization in the party. I'm probably someplace in the middle in terms of power since I intentionally nerfed my caster progression.

Tam is a big concern as well.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-24, 02:12 PM
Anyone have a good diplomacy score?

AKA_Bait
2008-04-24, 02:20 PM
Anyone have a good diplomacy score?

I do, as well as an insane bluff, but the DM isn't going to let us talk our way out of this fight. It's one of the 'epic campagin nearng the end' battles. We are going to have to ice them or die trying.

Chronos
2008-04-24, 02:35 PM
Do you have epic spells? You probably don't have time to come up with something customized for this battle, but what epic spells do you have available already?

And can you get any gods on your side? I don't know if either of those two has any particular enemies among the gods, but even if you can't get anyone else to stick their neck out for you, they might let you borrow some artifacts or something.

The_Werebear
2008-04-24, 02:39 PM
In this case, it might be best to Glibness it up and pray that you roll well. If you can bluff/diplomacy them into turning on each other, it gets infinitely easier.

Otherwise, I recommend focused fire on the deities if you can. Gate in some minions to deal with theirs, and pray that yours survive longer. Slap AMF's on them as often as possible. It won't take more than an action for them to get rid of it in all likelyhood, but a standard action they take quashing that spell is a standard action they don't spend quashing you. And there are more of you than them, so you can afford to try and lock them up and pick at them if you have a way to do it reliably.

Frosty
2008-04-24, 02:43 PM
Would dusts of coughing and sneezing work on deities?

Aquillion
2008-04-24, 02:49 PM
Would dusts of coughing and sneezing work on deities?Nope. Divine Rank 1+ grants immunity to stunning.

Kioran
2008-04-24, 03:03 PM
Okay. So you will have problems with the deity, but you have one shot that has a somewhat decent chance to take out Szass Tam: A locked and loaded Warmage. God knows they“re less than optimal, but the combination of True Strike and Sudden Maximized, Sudden empowered (enhanced? can he/she do that?) Käsekugel (Orb of X) will ignore concealment, almost surely hit and deal about 153.25 or 116.75 (Force) damage, + another 102.25 or 67.5 if enhanced.

If this one hits, chances are the Wizard goes down, unless he“s heavily optimized. Yay for blasting! It“s a one-of, but maight get something of your backs.

Starsinger
2008-04-24, 03:07 PM
Hrm... additional text to meet required length


Now watch closely, everyone. I'm going to show you how to kill a god. A god of life and death. The trick is not to fear him.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-24, 03:08 PM
Do you have epic spells? You probably don't have time to come up with something customized for this battle, but what epic spells do you have available already?

Nope, no epic spells. We are ECL 21 or 22 because of various bumps to caster level and things we have been given along the way. Most of our characters are around 19 or 20.


And can you get any gods on your side? I don't know if either of those two has any particular enemies among the gods, but even if you can't get anyone else to stick their neck out for you, they might let you borrow some artifacts or something.

Probably not. The campagin is set up in a 'the gods are not supposed to intervene' way. Umberlee is cheating by appearing on the material plane. The good gods won't break the rules.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-24, 03:13 PM
I'd say that if Szass Tam is played remotely like he ought to be, he'd wipe the floor with you by himself. A 29th-level wizard/red wizard/archmage? Hello, crazy circle magic with the entire school of Necromancy among the Red Wizards. But it's really down to who's more clever - you lot, or him. Since your DM is only one person (and you are the heroes), I figure that's weighed in your favor.

As for Umberlee... well, is this the actual Divine Rank 12 Umberlee from Faiths and Pantheons, her avatar from Faiths and Pantheons, or something else?

Generally, I'd say she will squash you in either form (hello, Annihilating Strike in real form, and saves over +45 and divine blast for 15d12 in avatar form), unless you have something specifically designed to level the field against Umberlee or deities in general. Traditionally in Faerūn, you beat deities by using divine powers of some sort (like Cyric using a sword that was actually Mask, and against deities that had been turned mortal at that). Never fight deities unless you have something to "counter" them. (Sick Kezef on her, maybe? Abominations would work, too.)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-24, 03:17 PM
You have a Drow MONK in the same party as an Iot7V? Talk about opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of optimization. Do Monk and Drow SR even stack?

They do stack, but they stack by Wonky SR stacking rules:

What actually happens is, that depending on how much SR your second source gives you, you get a very tiny number added on to your current SR. In this case +2.

So a Drow Monk gets SR equal to Monk levels +12, or just enough to overcome the crap drow LA and catch back up to the (crap) SR he would have had if he had been a human Monk.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-24, 04:12 PM
There is that Minor Artifact the Jathiman Dagger which ignores any divine bonus to armor class buried off Saerloon. Created by cultists to kill Gods. For a period of time in the possession of Bane before he bacame a God. Currently embedded in the last remants of Borem's Quagheart his still beating heart. Removing it could return him to Faerun.

martyboy74
2008-04-24, 04:36 PM
The prferred method of deicide on these boards is to teleport a holy sword in to tiamat's the gods' hearts.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-24, 04:44 PM
The prferred method of deicide on these boards is to teleport a holy sword in to tiamat's the gods' hearts.

A uranium sword!

JaxGaret
2008-04-24, 04:46 PM
Okay. So you will have problems with the deity, but you have one shot that has a somewhat decent chance to take out Szass Tam: A locked and loaded Warmage. God knows they“re less than optimal, but the combination of True Strike and Sudden Maximized, Sudden empowered (enhanced? can he/she do that?) Käsekugel (Orb of X) will ignore concealment, almost surely hit and deal about 153.25 or 116.75 (Force) damage, + another 102.25 or 67.5 if enhanced.

If this one hits, chances are the Wizard goes down, unless he“s heavily optimized. Yay for blasting! It“s a one-of, but maight get something of your backs.

I'm playing the Warmage, and I've PrCed out since 6th level - Warmage6/ExaltedArcanist5/Fatespinner4/HolyScourge5. Here is my feat selection: Purify Spell, Consecrate Spell, Rapid Metamagic, Quicken Spell, Channel Charge, Versatile Spellcaster, Practiced Spellcaster, Luck of Heroes, Spell Focus (Good), and Skill Focus: Knowledge (arcana). I'm heading into Loremaster next.

I was obviously not trying to optimize it much, as the other PCs in the campaign - other than the Iot7V/Incantatrix - are not very optimized (the Wu Jen should be less powerful than she is, but the DM rules that Wu Jens can cast off of the Wizard + Wu Jen lists, for whatever reason).

StoryKeeper
2008-04-24, 04:47 PM
I don't know much about the realms or how you're handling deities, but if the deities gain power through worship, maybe you could cause a massive shift in opinion to weaken them. Honestly, killing a god and changing the minds of the entire world are probably about the same in difficulty. If you can't make people stop worshiping them, maybe the power from their worship converges in a certain place or something. Find that and either destroy it or channel it into yourselves or something.

If deities don't get their strength from worship...

*Make it really epic somehow. Go for the gonads of one of them and hope that his blood produces a bunch of angry spawn that hate him for whatever reason.
*Complain to a lawful deity about them not playing by the rules. If you can't kill a god, another god probably can.
*Do demonlords and archdevils have the same restriction on interacting with the world? If not, maybe you can convince them. You have a drow, is Lolth considered a deity or high-ranking demon here?
*Convince the deities that you yourselves are deities.
*Convince a bunch of mortals that you're deities until they worship you and make you authentically deific.

SadisticFishing
2008-04-24, 05:12 PM
They do stack, but they stack by Wonky SR stacking rules:

What actually happens is, that depending on how much SR your second source gives you, you get a very tiny number added on to your current SR. In this case +2.

So a Drow Monk gets SR equal to Monk levels +12, or just enough to overcome the crap drow LA and catch back up to the (crap) SR he would have had if he had been a human Monk.

Huh? Where'd you find that?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-24, 05:20 PM
I don't know much about the realms or how you're handling deities, but if the deities gain power through worship, maybe you could cause a massive shift in opinion to weaken them. Honestly, killing a god and changing the minds of the entire world are probably about the same in difficulty. If you can't make people stop worshiping them, maybe the power from their worship converges in a certain place or something. Find that and either destroy it or channel it into yourselves or something.

The Cyricist / Banite pogroms where one and the other are alternately given the opportunity to convert or die don't seem to affect the relative power of the deities; only by actually killing Bane (during the Time of Troubles, when the poor sod was mortal) did Cyric take his place. (And Cyric returned by being reborn through another deity, rather than just by gaining back worship. In fact, he gained back worship afterwards.)

I presume this is an avatar deal (in which case you just need to pummel that 51 AC until Umberlee hit points give out - no big deal, really), since actually killing a deity tends to result in assuming that deity's portfolio. (Although that may have been a Time of Troubles thing; didn't Ao get involved and assign portfolios to "winners" and other likely candidates?)

That, and good luck weakening the worship of the deity every sailor in the world propitiates before going out to sea in order to avoid storms. (That, and it would take years and years. In that time, they'd be better off just getting Epic Spellcasting.)

I'd seriously say Szass Tam is the bigger threat, since he's the better spellcaster. Umberlee's just a big bashing monster with a limited selection of (at-will?) SLAs.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-24, 05:21 PM
Huh? Where'd you find that?

DMG or MM, something for DMs making templated monstrosities. But it doesn't say it doesn't apply to PCs.

Collin152
2008-04-24, 05:22 PM
A uranium sword!

An anti-osmium bolus.
Then you run like hell.

TehJhu
2008-04-24, 06:51 PM
Gate to another Prime Material Plane. Preferably Oerth, so you can then gate from there to Earth and rule the world.

Idea Man
2008-04-24, 10:11 PM
What have you done to anger your DM?! :smalltongue:

Minions are easy. If they're tougher than you, give up and run, otherwise, go to town!

Hmm, Szass Tam. Give him a reason to run, and quickly! Blanket party with death ward for insurance.

Umberlee. Happy version makes her the brute force of this fight, and she can dish it out in whichever aspect she takes. Horror version says your DM is taking full advantage of her multitude of spells, as well as spell-like abilities. That makes two casters, one roughly ten levels higher than your party, the other a fully functional 30th lvl gish with healing abilities on the side. Plus minions (presumably mix of undead and aquatic). Either version has an absurd number of hit points and a dangerously high SR.

At your level, without serious epic power to back yourselves up, either Szass Tam or Umberlee should waste your whole group, much less together, with help. Best hope is to buff to the hilt, strike with all your might, and if you have to die, look good doing it!

As Shaddam said to King Kashew in Record of Lodoss War "At least it's a worthy opponent, my lord.".

nagora
2008-04-25, 04:14 AM
If it's a god, you can't kill it. If you can kill it, it wasn't a god.

On its home plane (at least), a deity can simply will your magic to not work and your equipment to be made of chocolate. Or teleport you away.

Gods are like that. No wonder so many people want to kill them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-25, 04:27 AM
They've already said it is on the Material Plane. Plus, if it has stats, we can kill it. It may take leveling up to 21 and getting Tippyesque spellcasting, but we can kill it.

The Faceless
2008-04-25, 06:56 AM
They've already said it is on the Material Plane. Plus, if it has stats, we can kill it. It may take leveling up to 21 and getting Tippyesque spellcasting, but we can kill it.

Woah woah woah, let's not go overboard here. Tippyesque spellcasting is way too much power for killing gods.

On the topic at hand, go for the nuts. Gods hate that. And see if you can find some legendary god killing magic items. There's usually a few lying around someplace.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-25, 08:30 AM
I presume this is an avatar deal (in which case you just need to pummel that 51 AC until Umberlee hit points give out - no big deal, really), since actually killing a deity tends to result in assuming that deity's portfolio.

Yeah it is. I was under the impression that it was the real Umberlee, since the DM had said so at the end of the last session but seems to have changed her mind. That might have happened when I warned her that I was probably going to try to gate Ao, if only to bring his attention to the fact that one of the gods was breaking his rules.

As for just pummeling her... I'm not sure even the dwarf and the scout (our major damage dealers / high BaB people) will be able to hit that much.


What have you done to anger your DM?! :smalltongue:

It seems mucking up her various carefully laid plans and occasionally one-shotting a monster she expects to be a challenge has given her a higher expectation of the parties capabilties than we may actually have. Also, she does have the tendency to Deus Ex Machina things so there might be some such thing planned to pull our collective rears out of the fire (but I don't get that impression this time).


Minions are easy. If they're tougher than you, give up and run, otherwise, go to town!

Minions are only a concern because they can be a distraction.


Hmm, Szass Tam. Give him a reason to run, and quickly! Blanket party with death ward for insurance.

I was considering throwing on an AMF and running in with the Dwarf to beat him to 'death' but if I do that then I pretty much take both of us out of the fight with Umberlee. Which is a concern considering none of our spells are going to do jack and the Dwarf is the major damage dealer.


At your level, without serious epic power to back yourselves up, either Szass Tam or Umberlee should waste your whole group, much less together, with help. Best hope is to buff to the hilt, strike with all your might, and if you have to die, look good doing it!

Chances are Umberlee will not be going to the hilt with her SLA's and the like (the DM just isn't really one for that kind of planning). There are a lot of innocents around, so pulling a 'get them out' with the IotSV is a strong consideration and it's not like this character hasn't done it before. He died previously distracting Lolth as others escaped.


On the topic at hand, go for the nuts. Gods hate that. And see if you can find some legendary god killing magic items. There's usually a few lying around someplace.

None that we are aware of and there isn't going to be time to sidequest for any godslaying things. They are right where we are, having followed us from Shar's home plane.

Krrth
2008-04-25, 09:06 AM
I feel I need to point out something. An AMF has NO effect on umberlee. SHe can sit there, laugh at you, then kill you. from the d20srd
Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
Having siad that, your GM must want your entire party to get wiped. An epic level caster and a deity, vs a lvl 21 party? that is just begging for a TPK.

GoC
2008-04-25, 09:12 AM
I feel I need to point out something. An AMF has NO effect on umberlee. SHe can sit there, laugh at you, then kill you. from the d20srd
Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
Having siad that, your GM must want your entire party to get wiped. An epic level caster and a deity, vs a lvl 21 party? that is just begging for a TPK.

Unless 2 are from the CO boards and the third is a Tippy Wizard.
Chuck E. Cheese could kill both of them as a fraction of an action.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-25, 09:18 AM
I feel I need to point out something. An AMF has NO effect on umberlee.

Oh, I know. That was only for the 'beat down Tam' part of the plan. Umberlee would still kick the hell out of us, but we might be able to inconvinence the lich for 1d10 days before we go.


Having siad that, your GM must want your entire party to get wiped. An epic level caster and a deity, vs a lvl 21 party? that is just begging for a TPK.

As I said, she probably expects us to pull something out of our butts and will do some sort of Deus Ex thing if we can't pull it off. That's her way. It's also possible we will all die. ::shrug::

Krrth
2008-04-25, 09:25 AM
Oh, I know. That was only for the 'beat down Tam' part of the plan. Umberlee would still kick the hell out of us, but we might be able to inconvinence the lich for 1d10 days before we go.



As I said, she probably expects us to pull something out of our butts and will do some sort of Deus Ex thing if we can't pull it off. That's her way. It's also possible we will all die. ::shrug::

In that case, it all depends on how Tam is played. AN epic level caseter who DOESN'T have a way around an AMF doesn't deserve to cast spells.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-25, 09:54 AM
Gating in Ao is a freaking amazing idea. Actually, in that vein, I'd recommend (seriously) trying to gate some deity, ANY deity, reasonably opposed to Umberlee (is she one of Talos' bunch? Deities of Fury or whatever?), although that may be hard, since she seems to be one of the "acceptable" evil deities. ("Hey, the sea just is that way. Don't mess with the Bitch Queen.") Like I said, you counter divinity with divinity.

And if you can't hit AC 51 regularly at full buffs... uh, okay, I guess you just aren't scary optimized, never mind. Yeah, go back to involving another deity in the fight somehow. If it weren't for the exalted party members, I'd recommend going for an evil deity who'd be opposed to her. (Faerūnian evil is notoriously non-monolithic.) Or at least get some deity-level artifact.

Also note that antimagic fields are freaking tiny. 10 ft. radius? Szass Tam can get out of that with a move action and flatten the part of your group not within 10 ft. of the target with a standard action spell. (Oh, and a quickened spell.)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-25, 10:09 AM
Do you have enough time to find the body and mind of Pandorym, and unite them? That would certainly help you in this fight.

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-25, 10:35 AM
Use Commune or something similar to tattle on them to one of the other Gods (Ao for preference, but if there isn't time, go for a kick-ass Justice god). Even if they can't come and help directly, I think even the most law-abiding god would be willing to lend an artifact or some epic magic items to help restore the Order of the Universe.

A Holy Devastator, Finaldeath and a few suits of Antimagic Armour would help out a lot...

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-25, 12:40 PM
I'd suggest Helm for help, but I figure he's still a bit gun-shy after the Time of Troubles. "No way. You know what happened last time time I killed some divinities! My church is still trying to live it down. My Chosen has to spend four hours an evening scrubbing floors at other deities' temples!"

Torm, maybe? He's a total badass, like everyone knows. (Except collateral damage in the neighborhood of, oh, a neighborhood.)

AKA_Bait
2008-04-25, 12:49 PM
Given the suggestions, I feel like I need to add some more context. This is taking place during the 'second time of troubles' which is basically an epic homebrew campagin using Faerun as a backdrop and source of NPC's.

The deal is, all the gods pretty much picked one side or another and are forbidden from coming to the material plane to get personally involved. It's supposed to be played out with their 'disciples' i.e. new chosen. I gather from my DM that this does not apply to their Avatars.

As such, getting any divine help, short of another Avatar, is unlikley. What's worse, is that the DM has already set it up so that the good gods are all off having a pow-wow in some outer plane and cannot be contacted.


In that case, it all depends on how Tam is played. AN epic level caseter who DOESN'T have a way around an AMF doesn't deserve to cast spells.

True. There is precident to expect that they won't be optimally played. We already took out one epic level spell caster (or one of his clones) with an amf, grapple, and pummeling. Thinking about it, that might be why the DM thinks we can handle an avatar of an intermediate deity...


Gating in Ao is a freaking amazing idea. Actually, in that vein, I'd recommend (seriously) trying to gate some deity, ANY deity, reasonably opposed to Umberlee (is she one of Talos' bunch? Deities of Fury or whatever?), although that may be hard, since she seems to be one of the "acceptable" evil deities. ("Hey, the sea just is that way. Don't mess with the Bitch Queen.") Like I said, you counter divinity with divinity.

Sadly, it's probably not possible. It seems that sending an avatar is within the rules of Ao, so he wouldn't care and I'd waste a casting of Gate. I might be able to get away with using gate to get an Avatar of another god or godess (probably Sune since one of our party members, the IotSV, is tight with her and she opposes Umberlee). Probably not though. I'm not sure how that would work with gate. Does an avatar of a deity count as a 'kind of creature' or a unique individual? If the latter, how do I summon them? Are they all just named Sune? That's dangerous since I don't want to summon the actual godess (because that would break the pact on our side.)


And if you can't hit AC 51 regularly at full buffs... uh, okay, I guess you just aren't scary optimized, never mind.

We might be able to. I don't really know the exact numbers for the rest of the party. The problem is that we won't have time to buff a bunch before battle.


If it weren't for the exalted party members, I'd recommend going for an evil deity who'd be opposed to her. (Faerūnian evil is notoriously non-monolithic.) Or at least get some deity-level artifact.

No time for the artifact and no one in the party is going to be willing to even talk with evil deities. Only one member of the party is 'officially' exalted but everyone is pretty solidly good. Heck, my character was thought to be shady in the alignment just because he beat a cleric of Bane with a desk... over and over...


Also note that antimagic fields are freaking tiny. 10 ft. radius? Szass Tam can get out of that with a move action and flatten the part of your group not within 10 ft. of the target with a standard action spell. (Oh, and a quickened spell.)

Well, that's why it's AMF + grapple.


Do you have enough time to find the body and mind of Pandorym, and unite them? That would certainly help you in this fight.

Probably not. I don't know who that is, for one, and there is no prep time. Would a wish or miracle be able to do that?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-25, 01:08 PM
An Avatar is exactly the sort of divine help you need.

If Umberlee is breaking the rules by appearing as an Avatar, you need to get the other gods to enforce these rules.

If Umberlee isn't breaking the rules, then you need to get another god to do the same and be on your side.

It's too bad that your party is (I presume) Good on the Exalted end of the scale, or you could make use of the non-Good deities. (Actually, even so, why not make use of Good-leaning Neutral deities like Helm and Silvanus? Unless they're also away.)

The mechanics of calling an Avatar would, obviously, be that you try to gate the deity, and the deity sends the Avatar out (from the SRD on gate: "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord"), because there's no way a deity is going to step into Faerūn bodily and risk actual damage and death. Depending on the source, the Time of Troubles may be the only time deities appeared in any form other than as Avatars, but those Avatars certainly have appeared a lot (like back when the orcs came into Toril, and their deities trounced the Mulhorandi deities; although since some of the Mulhorandi deities were apparently permanently damaged or destroyed, I'm inclined to think that was the real deal, not Avatars).

So you're not actually "summoning Sune." You're opening a gate to Sune, probably more or less informing her of the situation, and hoping that she will decide that sending an Avatar through is a good idea.

Looks like this is the most workable tactic for you. Now the question is, can Sune's Avatar beat Umberlee's Avatar, or at least even out the fight enough that you can beat the Bitch Queen together? (That's the most bad-ass deity title ever. "I am the Bitch Queen, you fools!")

Roderick_BR
2008-04-25, 01:46 PM
Agreed. How can these deities break the rules, and the others will just cross their arms? I'd suggest trying to contact them and ask for ANY kind of help. Even some buffing or magical weapon granted by an avatar that doesn't get directly into battle can help your side.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-25, 02:09 PM
Agreed. How can these deities break the rules, and the others will just cross their arms? I'd suggest trying to contact them and ask for ANY kind of help. Even some buffing or magical weapon granted by an avatar that doesn't get directly into battle can help your side.

See, the problem is that we can't contact them as I understand it. They are off planning in some unreachable place.

Wizard_Tom
2008-04-25, 02:18 PM
I don't know all the dieties in the setting, but it seems to me you would want to contact a Chaotic Good diety. If interferring is against the rules, then a Lawful diety will attempt to fix the infraction without breaking the rules. A Chaotic one would be more likely to say screw the rules and send in an avatar or some such. Particularly if said diety doesn't like your enemies.

tyckspoon
2008-04-25, 02:39 PM
See, the problem is that we can't contact them as I understand it. They are off planning in some unreachable place.

Really? Do spells like Commune and Contact Other Plane still work? If they do, you know you can still contact the gods and a Gate should be able to get the attention of one (or its secretary.)

SurlySeraph
2008-04-25, 02:47 PM
On the topic at hand, go for the nuts. Gods hate that.

Unfortunately, Umberlee is female, so that's not viable. :smalltongue:

I agree with those who urge trying to call in avatars of gods. I'd try Sune, Elistraee (if the drow is a Drizzt-type), and Kelemvor or Jergal (Lawful Neutral death gods; they might help take out Szass Tam, since Kelemvor hates undead and Jergal obeys Kelemvor).

Summoning devils (preferably Pit Fiends) might work, since Umberlee is Chaotic. Use your ranks in Diplomacy to create the most airtight contract you can (hopefully you have ranks in Sense Motive, too). It's not exactly Exalted, but it's better than dying.

I'd advise trying to get Tam out of the fight as quickly as possible. Antimagic field + grapple is good, but remember that liches have paralyzing touch. If you can get a Pit Fiend on your side, it might be useful to have it grapple him; the antimagic field will turn its special abilities off, but it has the Constrict ability that makes it do a good deal of extra damage in a grapple.

senrath
2008-04-25, 02:48 PM
Out of curiosity, how effective would gating in an infinite amount of solars be in this situation?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-25, 03:00 PM
See, the problem is that we can't contact them as I understand it. They are off planning in some unreachable place.

Somewhere else than Cynosure? How unreachable? (Actually, Cynosure might be unreachable itself - it's a dead magic plane, so the other end of a gate presumably wouldn't work.) If you tried to gate one of them, would the gate open? Because if it would, that'd be wicked - you'd end up contacting all of them at once. You'd expect at least a few to take action.

I agree about CG deities - they're more likely to break rules to do good. Sune, Selūne (a specific enemy of Umberlee), Tymora,

Or, really, try a Neutral deity, preferrably with good leanings. Shaundakul, Tempus, Silvanus, Chauntea (another enemy of Umberlee)... Sharess is only a Demigod, unfortunately. If any of your spellcasters are elves, try the Seldarine, although they're notorious for literally taking centuries or millenia to make a decision to act.

So it's Sune, Selūne, and or Chauntea.

Roderick_BR
2008-04-25, 03:24 PM
See, the problem is that we can't contact them as I understand it. They are off planning in some unreachable place.
Sounds a lot like DM fiat.... I know, I did it when I was too lazy to read the magic rules for 3.0, and didn't want to add ay npc wizard in the story :smalltongue:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-25, 03:51 PM
Actually, if they are in Cynosure, they pretty much are unreachable by any magic (except by portals from their own divine domains, which are pretty likely not easily reached themselves).

JaxGaret
2008-04-25, 10:56 PM
We go to battle tomorrow afternoon. It's a good day for some evil avatar-slaying... Thomas can't wait.

Hopefully I'll get a turn in early so I can Time Stop and drop a holy hell of a lot of buffs and area effects.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 11:10 PM
I HAVE A BACKUP PLAN!

Let them kill you.

Then go contact those gods who should have been saving your sixes in teh first place, taddle on Umberlee, and ask really nicely for a new body to replace the ones that are no doubt less than paste at this point.

JaxGaret
2008-04-26, 12:06 AM
Thanks Storykeeper. :smalltongue:

I'm thinking about hitting the Emergency Overload switch at some point in this battle: Quickened True Casting + Exalted Fury. All Evil enemies within 40 feet of me take 240 damage, no save, if I'm at full HP.

Though that's really best used as an opening stroke rather than a later gambit, since it is then more likely to do significant amounts of damage, and also my partymates can res me. If I don't take any damage after I drop out of Time Stop and I'm in good position to maximize its usefulness, that might be a good idea for round 2.

EDIT: AFAICT, the Avatar has 960 HP? Sheesh. My Exalted Fury would be a mere 1/4 of that.

Aquillion
2008-04-26, 01:35 AM
If it's a god, you can't kill it. If you can kill it, it wasn't a god.

On its home plane (at least), a deity can simply will your magic to not work and your equipment to be made of chocolate. Or teleport you away.No they can't. They can't teleport you away or do anything special to your equipment at all (beyond their spell-like abilities and so forth.) And they can only impede or boost entire schools of magic, not just one individual person's... and adjusting that takes a year and a day's worth of effort, not exactly something you can do on a whim. Don't worry, all they have to do is convince the players to leave them alone for the over five million rounds it takes to do what you described and everything's peachy.

Seriously, though -- yes, you can kill gods in D&D. This is part of the setting. It's the reason they have rules for deities in the first place; if you weren't supposed to kill deities, they would have DR of Infinite / -, among other things. Deities have been killed in the backgrounds of most settings, and there are non-divine characters that are explictly described as being both more powerful than and capable of killing most deities out there (Sigil's Lady of Pain comes to mind.) Typically you would use an epic-level party, but it is certainly intended to be doable, and is often the goal of epic-level campaigns.

Every time a discussion of deities comes up someone says "No, deities are unkillable, they can will you dead without giving you a save and then grab and eat your soul and then blast anyone who is left with invisible flaming monkies they shoot out of their divine ass." It doesn't work like that, no more than (say) a wizard can just wave their hands and say "I magic it away" or a fighter can respond to an encounter starting by saying "I have a sword, right? Well, I kill them with it. What's next?"

There are specific rules given for fighting deities. These provide definite limits to what they can and cannot do, with the intent of giving players an opportunity to confront, fight, and, yes, kill them.

...not that that appears likely to happen this time, sadly.

Starsinger
2008-04-26, 01:49 AM
It doesn't work like that, no more than (say) a wizard can just wave their hands and say "I magic it away"

I can no more "magic it away" than you could "science it away".

Collin152
2008-04-26, 01:50 AM
I can no more "magic it away" than you could "science it away".

But... I science things away daily!


Go away, you pesky little buggers! I science you out!

JaxGaret
2008-04-26, 01:51 AM
There are specific rules given for fighting deities. These provide definite limits to what they can and cannot do, with the intent of giving players an opportunity to confront, fight, and, yes, kill them.

...not that that appears likely to happen this time, sadly.

I'm inclined to agree with you. But, you never know.

Our Drow Fighter/Monk actually rivals the Dwarf for melee damage dealing ability, due to a trio of factors: they took a houseruled PrC called Kensai Knight which is like a powered-up Kensai; the player is using questionable maths when calculating damage output; and the DM (as well as everyone else) is just happy she's contributing, so we don't say anything about it. Plus she has an artifact sword from the DM.

Any tips for good combos off the Warmage or Sanctified lists for me to give a go? I'm usually best off (sadly) making sure the entire party is Hasted and Mass Chill Shielded (since no one else ever buffs), and I am adequately protected, then hitting enemies with the damage/control spells.

tyckspoon
2008-04-26, 02:07 AM
Every time a discussion of deities comes up someone says "No, deities are unkillable, they can will you dead without giving you a save and then grab and eat your soul and then blast anyone who is left with invisible flaming monkies they shoot out of their divine ass." It doesn't work like that,


Unless the Deity happens to have Hand of Death/Life and Death/Mass Life and Death, which exist for the purpose of doing exactly that. Moral of the story being don't screw with Death gods.

Waspinator
2008-04-26, 03:30 AM
Step 1: Find a plane full of anti-matter. Divination is probably a better way to do this than actually going there.

Step 2: Open gate facing the target that leads to the discovered plane.

Step 3: Run like hell.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-26, 07:11 AM
Shove the gods in a big bag of holding and proceed to beat it with a stick! :smallbiggrin:

What? No? Oh alright then.

Aquillion
2008-04-26, 04:46 PM
Technically, that wouldn't do any damage anyway, since things in a bag of holding are stored on another plane.

[/pedant]

SurlySeraph
2008-04-26, 05:33 PM
Actually, that's not a bad idea.


If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.

If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Granted, there aren't technically any rules for stuffing enemies into a bag of holding. But if you can do it and then sunder the bag, you probably win, depending on how your DM defines "lost forever." If it means "annihilated," you're good. If it means "lost in the Astral Plane," you'd better cast Dimensional Anchor on the target before putting him in the bag.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-27, 12:16 AM
Timestop+Portable Hole attached to a frame moved over the enemies+Bag of Holding. Bye-bye. :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-27, 03:59 AM
So AKA_Bait, when is this going down, anyway? You'd better tell us what happens!

JaxGaret
2008-04-27, 12:50 PM
It went down yesterday. Ended up that Szass Tam was an illusion, and we slaughtered the Avatar due to a total of 4 crit rolls by the party plus my aforementioned use of Exalted Fury.

AKA_Bait
2008-04-28, 11:03 AM
It went down yesterday. Ended up that Szass Tam was an illusion, and we slaughtered the Avatar due to a total of 4 crit rolls by the party plus my aforementioned use of Exalted Fury.

Pretty much what JaxGaret said. Also, as expected, the DM did not make full use of the Avatar's abilties (only one quickened spell (inflict serious), no 9th level spells used, didn't use any physical attacks (i.e. no annhilating strike) and pretty much just stood there and got pounded using the Divine Blast every round.) Even so, 2 party members (Jaxgaret's character and the Scout) died and most of the rest were at less than 15 hp at one time or another during the battle.

JaxGaret
2008-04-28, 10:10 PM
Also, as expected, the DM did not make full use of the Avatar's abilties (only one quickened spell (inflict serious), no 9th level spells used

Although our Wizard did put up an Elminster's Effulgent Epuration, which would have negated much of what spells the Avatar could have thrown at us.


, didn't use any physical attacks (i.e. no annhilating strike) and pretty much just stood there and got pounded using the Divine Blast every round.)

Yep, that's pretty much what the Avatar did. I did freeze the ocean under her (it was Umberlee's Avatar, not sure if we mentioned that), I'm not sure if that had any effect though.


Even so, 2 party members (Jaxgaret's character and the Scout) died and most of the rest were at less than 15 hp at one time or another during the battle.

Yeah, it was still a tough fight, even with the plethora of crits.