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neochaos
2008-04-24, 08:20 PM
Well, I heard many people saying that Incantatrix is very powerful class. Improved metamagic seems cool, but I don't understand why it is considered that powerful. What are some powerful abilities of Incantatrix and how a caster can use them? Examples are greatly appreciated.

Human Paragon 3
2008-04-24, 08:24 PM
Free metamagic, I believe. 'Nuff said.

nargbop
2008-04-24, 08:26 PM
You get three free metamagic feats over ten levels, and at eighth level, your metamagic is considered one level cheaper. Cheap metamagic is good.

Karsh
2008-04-24, 08:29 PM
That's not even the half of it. Cooperative Metamagic is also incredibly good. The ability to modify spells with high-adjustment metamagic for free is the real draw. The most disgusting thing about Incantatrixes is that they are essentially economies of scale. If you get two or three of them together, they become capable of making spells do things they were never intended to do.

Turcano
2008-04-24, 08:37 PM
You get three free metamagic feats over ten levels, and at eighth level, your metamagic is considered one level cheaper. Cheap metamagic is good.

To elaborate, it's like getting Arcane Thesis for every spell you have. On these boards, the gold standard attack spell is the empowered split ray enervation, which is essentially energy drain-and-a-half; now you can put it in a 7th-level spell slot. Or you could put Maximize Spell on it for energy drain x 2.5.

Instant Metamagic allows you to add metamagic (like Persistent Spell) to high-level spells, which you otherwise can't do without insanely expensive metamagic rods.

EvilElitest
2008-04-24, 08:38 PM
Goes along with my theory that WotC doesn't actually play their own game right, because this was just one of the worst examples
from
EE

Idea Man
2008-04-24, 08:44 PM
Just curious... doesn't anyone think to cast globe if invulnerability when up against an incantrix? Most of the kill-sets I see are fourth or lower base spells.

Corolinth
2008-04-24, 08:54 PM
If you get two or three of them together, they become capable of making spells do things they were never intended to do.The population density of level 7+ arcane spellcasters (let alone those with two levels of incantatrix) is sufficiently low, regardless of your setting, to prevent this from ever becoming a problem. Sure, in a given geographic region you might dig up two or three incantatrices. Now how are you going to get them to work together? I'd bet my money on one of them getting killed due to a personality conflict.

In the rare occasion that you can get a group together that's willing to co-operate with one another, is that really so broken and overpowering? Consider that a group of wizards working together is a standard fantasy requirement for anything awesome.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-24, 08:54 PM
The reason Incantatrix is powerful depends on who is using him:

1) Newbiest newb to D&D ever:

Hey, it's just like a Wizard except I get my feats faster, cheaper metamagic, and some other abilities that I'll use every once in a while.

2) Metamagic crazy death:

How does a Split, Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Quickened Enervation sound? What if I told you that was a fourth level slot?

3) Realizing the full effect of his spellcraft checks:

Okay, level 9, sweet. Okay guys. I'm going to persist Greater Blink on the rogue so he gets Sneak Attack all day, then Chain the Cleric's Deathward so we are all invulnerable to death effects. Now I'm going Persist Haste on everyone. What's next guys?

4) A monstrosity of Epic proportions:

My list of Persisted spells includes Superior Invisibility, Shapechange, some other stuff. I also do everything the other three do. And I spend half my time playing around with our opponents by stealing their Summon Elemental Monolith Spells and Spheres of Destruction out from under their noses. Mostly because they aren't worth actually wasting spell slots.


In the rare occasion that you can get a group together that's willing to co-operate with one another, is that really so broken and overpowering? Consider that a group of wizards working together is a standard fantasy requirement for anything awesome.

1) He's talking about PCs doing it.

2) Is it that broken? Well since 2 plus a DMM Cleric is enough to persist every single Cleric and Wizard buff across the whole party all day. Yeah.


Just curious... doesn't anyone think to cast globe if invulnerability when up against an incantrix? Most of the kill-sets I see are fourth or lower base spells.

The thing is, the insta death against 90% of enemies spells are usually exactly 4th level. But they still have everything every other Wizard has of higher level.

Of course the funniest part is that an Incantatrix can spend 2 standard actions to steal the Globe from you and dismiss it. So you net gained 1 standard action, which only matters if the Incantatrix is alone.

neochaos
2008-04-24, 09:02 PM
[QUOTE=Chosen_of_Vecna;4241195]The reason Incantatrix is powerful depends on who is using him:
2) Metamagic crazy death:

How does a Split, Twinned, Empowered, Maximized, Quickened Enervation sound? What if I told you that was a fourth level slot?

How do you do that? what is the final slot of that Enervation?

Saph
2008-04-24, 09:04 PM
While the above reasons have something to do with it, the reason you hear about it so much on this board is because TLN spotlighted it in his wizard guide over a year ago. Since then it's passed into mythical status.

- Saph

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-24, 09:07 PM
While the above reasons have something to do with it, the reason you hear about it so much on this board is because TLN spotlighted it in his wizard guide over a year ago. Since then it's passed into mythical status.

- Saph

Yes, it's far more likely that everyone on this forum is incapable of thinking for themselves and a gigantic toady to a year old guide then that they can actually see the many various benefits of the Incantatrix PrC.

JaxGaret
2008-04-24, 09:13 PM
Just curious... doesn't anyone think to cast globe if invulnerability when up against an incantrix? Most of the kill-sets I see are fourth or lower base spells.

Okay, you cast GoI. Unless you're masking your casting somehow, the Incantatrix knows you have the Globe on. The Incantatrix hits you with a 5th level spell all metamagiced up. You lose.

GoI is generally a bad idea to use a spell slot on, because its spell level is too high and its duration too short for what it does.

It would be much better off as a Psionic power, where you could pump whatever amount of PP into it you wanted to negate X level spells. As a quick example, you pump X^2 PP into it to negate all Xth or lower level spells cast on you for 1 round/level. That would be much better, but spells in 3e don't work that way, unless you made it a series of spells of different levels, but that would be a different animal.

NecroRebel
2008-04-24, 09:20 PM
How do you do that? what is the final slot of that Enervation?

With Arcane Thesis (Enervation), you can get a Twinned Split Ray Empowered Maximized Quickened Enervation in a 7th level slot, barring metamagic rods. All of those but Maximize and Quicken are +2 or less adjusters, which Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis make go away. Rod-Quicken one and you can burn 2 5-level slots in a round to give an enemy 32+8D4/2 negative levels in one round, with touch attacks. For extra fun, I hear there's some +1 metamagic feat somewhere called Black Lore of the Moire that makes a spell give a negative level, which would increase that trick (for no higher cost, mind you) to 40+8D4/2.

Hmm... Looking that up, I guess you need Black Lore of the Moil to make a Necromancy spell (Enervation) deal damage for +1 metamagic, then Fell Drain to make it add the negative level for +2 metamagic, which Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis, again, make not count. Hax, basically.

Rutee
2008-04-24, 09:30 PM
Yes, it's far more likely that everyone on this forum is incapable of thinking for themselves and a gigantic toady to a year old guide then that they can actually see the many various benefits of the Incantatrix PrC.

Yes, as a matter of fact it /is/ more likely that people simply repeat things word of mouth then actually look things up themselves, or truly grasp the gravity of what they discuss. Are you new to human psychology? :smallwink:

I do believe the Incantatrix is stupid powerful, but your rebuttal was pretty.. strange.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-24, 09:50 PM
3) Realizing the full effect of his spellcraft checks:

Okay, level 9, sweet. Okay guys. I'm going to persist Greater Blink on the rogue so he gets Sneak Attack all day, then Chain the Cleric's Deathward so we are all invulnerable to death effects. Now I'm going Persist Haste on everyone. What's next guys?

Morbo?
"METAMAGIC DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
Thank you, Morbo.
Greater Blink is Personal, and can't be persisted on the rogue. Death Ward is touch-range, and can't be chained (you could Reach it first, though, I guess).
Haste is not fixed-rannge or personal and therefore can't be persisted.

Not so say that Metamagic Effect isn't disgusting. Those are just bad examples.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-24, 09:51 PM
While the above reasons have something to do with it, the reason you hear about it so much on this board is because TLN spotlighted it in his wizard guide over a year ago. Since then it's passed into mythical status.

- Saph

Actually it had more to do with me just posting an Incantatrix build that Karsh and I came up with in all the wizard challenge threads. Before that it was mentioned but no one on these boards had shown why it was so powerful.

To the OP:

Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substituted, Piercing Cold, Fell Draining, Invisible, Twinned, Energy Admixed, Cooperative, Quickened, Orb of Fire - 2x (180 + 15d6 Cold Damage + 1 Negative Level, no save, Fort Save or Dazed for 1 round).

Thats quickened, No Save, No SR. Out of a 4th level slot. You can heighten it to 5th level if you want to bypass Globe Of Invulnerability. But with Snatch Spell you can end the Globe of Invulnerability as a standard action with 2 opposed caster level checks and then hit them with the Orb.

Or you just hit them with a Greater Dispel Magic (which you should be doing in most fights anyways) if you see that they have the Globe up.

-----
Now the real fun of Incantatrix comes with Persistent spell and Metamagic Effect. You can get things like 24 hour Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons), 24 hour Superior Invisibility (only things with True Seeing can find you), 24 hour Greater Blink, etc.

With 30 int you get 13 uses per day. That is 13 buffs that last all day. And you get 13 more that you can do with Cooperative Meta (the cleric casts a buff and you Coop persist it).

dman11235
2008-04-24, 09:55 PM
Actually, I believe that the Incantatrix only lowers the total level of the spell, where Arcane Thesis calls out that it works on every MM feat. Also, for both of them, minimum +1 level.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-24, 10:01 PM
Morbo?
"METAMAGIC DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
Thank you, Morbo.
Greater Blink is Personal, and can't be persisted on the rogue.
You can get around that.


Death Ward is touch-range, and can't be chained (you could Reach it first, though, I guess).
Yes. 1 Level of Hirophant for Divine Reach. Or a Rod of Reach Spell.


Haste is not fixed-rannge or personal and therefore can't be persisted.
An Incantatrix can still apply it to themselves or anyone else. They just can't use Cooperative Meta on it.

But you can still use Metamagic Effect to make it persistent. Technically you can persist any spell with a duration with Metamagic Effect.


Not so say that Metamagic Effect isn't disgusting. Those are just bad examples.
Yeah, Ironguard and Superior Invisibility are the real fun.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-24, 10:04 PM
An Incantatrix can still apply it to themselves or anyone else. They just can't use Cooperative Meta on it.

But you can still use Metamagic Effect to make it persistent. Technically you can persist any spell with a duration with Metamagic Effect.


I must have missed the part in Metamagic Effect where it explicitly lets you ignore the requirements of metamagic feats you're applying with it.
Because if that part doesn't exist, then you still have to meet Persistent Spell's requirements, just as if you were applying it in any other way.

monty
2008-04-24, 10:05 PM
Actually, I believe that the Incantatrix only lowers the total level of the spell, where Arcane Thesis calls out that it works on every MM feat. Also, for both of them, minimum +1 level.

I looked it up, and it says that it applies to the feat, not the spell, so it applies to each one. That still doesn't change the "minimum +1" problem, though. Maybe it's not quite as powerful as people think.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-24, 10:06 PM
Actually, I believe that the Incantatrix only lowers the total level of the spell, where Arcane Thesis calls out that it works on every MM feat. Also, for both of them, minimum +1 level.

Your wrong on both points.

"whenever she uses a metamagic feat, the required increase in spell level is reduced by 1 (minimum +1 spell level"

It works on each feat individually.

Arcane Thesis has no minimum, it just can't reduce the final spell level below its original level (no casting a 9th level spell in an 8th level slot by having Arcane Thesis and Invisible Spell on it).

dman11235
2008-04-24, 10:10 PM
That's what I meant by the +1 level thing, actually. And I'll re-read the segment, it's been a while, though I could have sworn it was just the spell it affected...And you're right. It's even worse than I thought. Oh well, more pain for my enemies!

EDIT: Oh, I just read through the Errata for Arcane Thesis, and it omitted the part about it not being able to be lowered below the original level. So yeah, I thought it was a minimum +1 adjustment as well. Even more pain.

monty
2008-04-24, 10:11 PM
Arcane Thesis only applies to one spell, though. Go up against something that's immune to that spell and it's useless.

neochaos
2008-04-24, 10:12 PM
Now the real fun of Incantatrix comes with Persistent spell and Metamagic Effect. You can get things like 24 hour Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons), 24 hour Superior Invisibility (only things with True Seeing can find you), 24 hour Greater Blink, etc.

With 30 int you get 13 uses per day. That is 13 buffs that last all day. And you get 13 more that you can do with Cooperative Meta (the cleric casts a buff and you Coop persist it)

what you mean by "13 uses per day"? is there some ways to use metamagic with int modifier, like Cleric using his Cha mod for turn undead for divine metamagic?

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-24, 10:13 PM
I looked it up, and it says that it applies to the feat, not the spell, so it applies to each one. That still doesn't change the "minimum +1" problem, though. Maybe it's not quite as powerful as people think.

Arcane Thesis + Improved Meta. Any +2 of less meta is free. Add in easy meta and you can make a +3 meta free. Now add in +0 meta like Invisible Spell and Energy Substitution. Those add a -1 which you can use to cancel out other increases.

An Arcane Thesis, Improved Meta, Invisible, Maximized, Orb of Fire is a 4th level spell.

So is an Arcane Thesis, Improved Meta, Easy Meta: Quicken, Invisible, Quickened Orb of Fire.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-24, 10:14 PM
what you mean by "13 uses per day"? is there some ways to use metamagic with int modifier, like Cleric using his Cha mod for turn undead for divine metamagic?
Metamagic Effect is usable 3+Int Mod times per day.

dman11235
2008-04-24, 10:16 PM
But Improved MM does have the +1 limit, so it would have to be at +1 level if you used it.

monty
2008-04-24, 10:17 PM
But Improved MM does have the +1 limit, so it would have to be at +1 level if you used it.

That's only if it's already +1 or higher. It then says that it can't become negative if it's +0.

Jasdoif
2008-04-24, 10:17 PM
But Improved MM does have the +1 limit, so it would have to be at +1 level if you used it.I believe that's where Arcane Thesis comes in, it reduces the +1 to 0.

Rutee
2008-04-24, 10:17 PM
No, it wouldn't. Apply Improved Metamagic first. Everything reduced is to +1 or whatever it should be. Then apply Arcane Thesis. Everything reduced to +1 is now reduced to +0.

neochaos
2008-04-24, 10:18 PM
So, is it like applying Persistent metamagic on the buffs I already buffed on myself? Like persistent metamagic on shield spell I already cast?

dman11235
2008-04-24, 10:19 PM
I'm missing where it says that.

Anyways, allow me to retain some sanity (I kind of already thought of that form of abuse).

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-24, 10:19 PM
So, is it like applying Persistent metamagic on the buffs I already buffed on myself? Like persistent metamagic on shield spell I already cast?

Yes. pony's for pedestrians

Idea Man
2008-04-24, 10:20 PM
Okay, you cast GoI. Unless you're masking your casting somehow, the Incantatrix knows you have the Globe on. The Incantatrix hits you with a 5th level spell all metamagiced up. You lose.

GoI is generally a bad idea to use a spell slot on, because its spell level is too high and its duration too short for what it does.

It would be much better off as a Psionic power, where you could pump whatever amount of PP into it you wanted to negate X level spells. As a quick example, you pump X^2 PP into it to negate all Xth or lower level spells cast on you for 1 round/level. That would be much better, but spells in 3e don't work that way, unless you made it a series of spells of different levels, but that would be a different animal.

I'm just saying that a feat the incantrix is unlikely to use is highten spell, so he'll end up needing to use energy drain to level-death me. most of the battle combos I see are 4th or lower, so GoI seems like a valid option. He sees fit to ace me with a 5th level spell, my fault for not being Pun Pun, I suppose. :smalltongue:

Customizeable effects would be ideal, and lead to fewer truly different spells, but that was not the plan in this edition. Psionics is pretty good, that way, and could be adapted, as you said.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-24, 10:22 PM
I'm just saying that a feat the incantrix is unlikely to use is highten spell, so he'll end up needing to use energy drain to level-death me. most of the battle combos I see are 4th or lower, so GoI seems like a valid option. He sees fit to ace me with a 5th level spell, my fault for not being Pun Pun, I suppose. :smalltongue:

GoI does nothing. Snatch Spell can get rid of it as a standard action, Greater Dispel Magic can end it, and Heighten can make a spell 5th level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-24, 10:25 PM
I'm just saying that a feat the incantrix is unlikely to use is highten spell, so he'll end up needing to use energy drain to level-death me. most of the battle combos I see are 4th or lower, so GoI seems like a valid option. He sees fit to ace me with a 5th level spell, my fault for not being Pun Pun, I suppose. :smalltongue: The problem is, So far all spells that have been mentioned are 4th level or 9th level. He has no reason not to prepare a 5th level insta-gib spell too. And a few 6th level ones. And 8th. He's a full wizard, only his 4th level spells are all he needs to use to kill anything without a Globe of Invulnerability, and his 9th make him immortal, so every other slot can go into preparing for the one-in-10,000,000 chance he has of facing something that ~400 points of damage or 60 negative levels won't kill.

Sebastrd
2008-04-25, 06:43 AM
No, it wouldn't. Apply Improved Metamagic first. Everything reduced is to +1 or whatever it should be. Then apply Arcane Thesis. Everything reduced to +1 is now reduced to +0.

That's assuming your DM allows it. Personally, I would rule that at minimum the Arcane Thesis was applied first; more likely, I would rule that the two didn't stack at all.

Can't all that Persisted B.S. just be dispelled anyway? What do you do then?

Attilargh
2008-04-25, 07:24 AM
Loot the opponent's corpse and recast it, I'd presume.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-04-25, 07:32 AM
That's assuming your DM allows it. Personally, I would rule that at minimum the Arcane Thesis was applied first; more likely, I would rule that the two didn't stack at all.

Can't all that Persisted B.S. just be dispelled anyway? What do you do then?

You take precautions--from Duelward as one of your persistent spells to a Ring of Counterspells or two to boosting your caster level.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 07:54 AM
That's assuming your DM allows it. Personally, I would rule that at minimum the Arcane Thesis was applied first; more likely, I would rule that the two didn't stack at all.

Whoo-ho, you can make up rules that negate one of the attack methods of an Incantatrix. Of course he's still a full Wizard. So you still lose.


Can't all that Persisted B.S. just be dispelled anyway? What do you do then?

1) No it can't. Does anyone actually read the dispel rules? Firstly you have about a 40-50% chance if you have equal CL of dispelling something. (You never will.) Secondly, it takes a standard action (IE the only one you are going to have if you spend your actions attempting to dispel the incantatrix.) Thirdly you have to be able to target him.

2) Since Greater Invisibility is one of the first spells to start being Persisted, you can never actual see the guy to dispel anything in the first place.

valadil
2008-04-25, 08:55 AM
It should be noted that there are two versions of the Incantatrix floating around out there. If you google Incantatrix you can see one of them on WotC's site. That version is from 3.0. It is a very solid PrC, but isn't broken.

The really broken one is in Players Guide to Faerun. It lets you make spellcraft checks to do broken things like add metamagic to a spell already in effect, take over a spell another caster is concentrating on, and take control of a persistent effect created by another caster. In addition, it gets improved metamagic, metamagic on wands at the expense of charges, and 4 bonus metamagic feats.

FWIW, persistent spell applies to a fixed or personal target spell. Chain adds in secondary targets to a spell that has a range greater than touch. So you couldn't chain a Shield (which kills my plan for an abjurant champ incantatrix who gives the whole party+9 Shield every morning). I don't think you could persist a chained spell since the chained spell already has more targets. You could however chain a persistent spell. I'm not totally sure what the result of that would be if the spell was already in effect. Do you get more targets at that point? It really just comes down to DM fiat here.

lord_khaine
2008-04-25, 09:12 AM
1) No it can't. Does anyone actually read the dispel rules? Firstly you have about a 40-50% chance if you have equal CL of dispelling something. (You never will.) Secondly, it takes a standard action (IE the only one you are going to have if you spend your actions attempting to dispel the incantatrix.) Thirdly you have to be able to target him.

2) Since Greater Invisibility is one of the first spells to start being Persisted, you can never actual see the guy to dispel anything in the first place.


first point doesnt make sense, why shouldnt you have equal caster level?
and as for standart actions, well that is what quicken spell is for, its not reserved for the Incantrix.

2) if you dont have see invisibility running at this level, then you deserve whatever fate comes and hit you with.

Epinephrine
2008-04-25, 09:43 AM
So my question - does anyone actually allow them played this way? I'm still learning the system, but it strikes me that a DM should simply squelch things that are ludicrously unbalanced, or rule that the +1 minimum metamagic cost is applied last, after all other effects.

Talya
2008-04-25, 09:49 AM
Huh...now let me see if I understand this: if an incantatrix with arcane thesis took heighten spell...could they cast their thesis spell at a spell level 2 higher than normal...while using up it's unmetamagicked spell slot?

valadil
2008-04-25, 09:55 AM
So my question - does anyone actually allow them played this way? I'm still learning the system, but it strikes me that a DM should simply squelch things that are ludicrously unbalanced, or rule that the +1 minimum metamagic cost is applied last, after all other effects.

I only know one DM that would allow the 3.5 Incantatrix as written. I don't know what would happen if anyone tried Arcane Thesis. Nobody in my groups has attempted it because it's too cheesy. I'd consider letting it treat a metamagic as +0. I certainly wouldn't let it get metamagic down to negatives. Because no order is specified, I probably would be a jerk about stacking it with other metamagic. For instance an incantatrix with improved metamagic can reduce the cost by one to a min of one. An empowered spell with arcane thesis and imp metamagic is either level 0 or level 1 depending on whether the thesis or imp metamagic applies last. I'm inclined to go with level 1. By now we're getting off topic.

Frosty
2008-04-25, 11:03 AM
Huh...now let me see if I understand this: if an incantatrix with arcane thesis took heighten spell...could they cast their thesis spell at a spell level 2 higher than normal...while using up it's unmetamagicked spell slot?

Arcane Thesis specifically does not work with Heighten spell iirc. It's in the feat description.

Emperor Tippy
2008-04-25, 11:30 AM
All of the meta reducers work like Chosen and I have been talking about.

He is just making stupid mistakes. It's Superior Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility. Only True Seeing can find you. And depending on the DM Mind Blank blocks even that (I personally think its clear but some disagree).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 11:37 AM
first point doesnt make sense, why shouldnt you have equal caster level?

1) Are we talking about PCs in a duel or an actual campaign? Monsters don't have equal CL, and your enemies are probably going to be lower level then you unless they are alone, in which case they will be killed by the 4+ PCs in one round.

2) Because if you are Persisting a bunch of buffs you:
a) Have a Ring of Enduring Arcana
b) UMD a Bead of Karma
c) Use whatever CL modifiers you have in the party for the buff session.

Which means that at level say, 9, you are casting those spells at a CL of 17. So not likely to be dispelled.


and as for standart actions, well that is what quicken spell is for, its not reserved for the Incantrix.

Right, except that with Arcane Thesis and Improved Meta, Incantatrix can actually use it without a +4 level adjustment.

So either you quicken that 3rd level Dispel at level 13 (already 3 down on the Incantatrix before you take into account his other boosts) or you wait until, oh right Epic, to quicken that greater dispel. Yeah, don't look so good to me.

Yes there are ways to get around that, but if you have a Rod of Quicken, you can bet that the Incantatrix has a Ring of Spellbattle/Counterspells or Duelward up.


2) if you dont have see invisibility running at this level, then you deserve whatever fate comes and hit you with.

What level are we? Are we in a campaign? Most monsters don't even have access to see invis. Most casters don't permanency it. If you are forcing a standard action just to find you, then you kill them the next round, that's pretty good. Persisted Greater Invisibility is up at level 7 (maybe 9, I think you don't get meta effect until level 4 Incantatrix). At higher levels they of course switch to Superior Invisibility, where it doesn't even matter if they have See Invisibility.


So my question - does anyone actually allow them played this way? I'm still learning the system, but it strikes me that a DM should simply squelch things that are ludicrously unbalanced, or rule that the +1 minimum metamagic cost is applied last, after all other effects.

I would certainly allow them to be played that way. I expect it. I generally would prefer if they didn't create Arcane Thesised spells of Death, just because even though I could thwart them, I don't want everything to result in either, insta death, or have to be able to thwart the spells.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 11:45 AM
All of the meta reducers work like Chosen and I have been talking about.

He is just making stupid mistakes. It's Superior Invisibility, not Greater Invisibility. Only True Seeing can find you. And depending on the DM Mind Blank blocks even that (I personally think its clear but some disagree).

Actually, I was just referring to it be broken before level 17. Persisted Greater Invis is pretty freaking sweet at level 9. Of course it just get's better later.

And I was not describing the specific ways to use Ocular/Reach/ect to get around requirements and Persist Deathward/Greater Blink on the Rogue/Haste because they are too specific for what is essentially a question of what you can do.

Not everything fits into one build. But most of it does. Add another Incantatrix and you can have everything here (including Orbs spells that do 360 + 30d6 damage + a negative level, 3/4s of which ignores immunities. And X number of negative levels with enervation.)

dman11235
2008-04-25, 11:51 AM
There is also the option of the Gentleman's Rule. And players not abusing the class and feat. I'm going to start playing a sorcerer//incarnate gestalt soon, going into Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis on Hammer of Righteousness. It's not going to be too powerful because I won't abuse the stuff. As in, I'm only going to have 5 MM feats at the most, and none of them will be persist unless I want to further lower the possible damage of my signature spell.

Fawsto
2008-04-25, 12:53 PM
Plain and simple,

Metamagic is one of the many ways to brake the game. A class that specializes on aquiring metamagic feats and making them easier to use has the potential to utterly break the game.

Rutee
2008-04-25, 01:36 PM
That's assuming your DM allows it. Personally, I would rule that at minimum the Arcane Thesis was applied first; more likely, I would rule that the two didn't stack at all.

Can't all that Persisted B.S. just be dispelled anyway? What do you do then?

As there's no indication that there's an order of operations, ruling Arcane Thesis applied second is no less RAW then applying it first.

I don't think a sane DM would allow you to take either if we're going to go that way, really.

Frosty
2008-04-25, 01:56 PM
Yes, dispelling is not a bad thing to do, unless the PC has raises his caster level to insane amounts. As a DM, I would disallow karma beads. Ring of enduring arcana will take up a precious ring slot, so that's fine. All in all, limit the abusive ways of raising caster level and their buffs can be dispelled.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 02:19 PM
Yes, dispelling is not a bad thing to do, unless the PC has raises his caster level to insane amounts. As a DM, I would disallow karma beads. Ring of enduring arcana will take up a precious ring slot, so that's fine. All in all, limit the abusive ways of raising caster level and their buffs can be dispelled.

1) Money is usually a lot bigger limiter on your Rings then slots. Unless you can actually find anyone in the universe willing to play D&D above level 10 without having to DM yourself, in which case I envy you.

2) You do realize that the Ring only has to be worn when buffing, and that you can then take it off and put on your Freedom of Movement/Arcane Might/Ect?

TehJhu
2008-04-25, 02:23 PM
Yes, it's far more likely that everyone on this forum is incapable of thinking for themselves and a gigantic toady to a year old guide then that they can actually see the many various benefits of the Incantatrix PrC.

....yeah, pretty much.

Frosty
2008-04-25, 02:30 PM
1) Money is usually a lot bigger limiter on your Rings then slots. Unless you can actually find anyone in the universe willing to play D&D above level 10 without having to DM yourself, in which case I envy you.

2) You do realize that the Ring only has to be worn when buffing, and that you can then take it off and put on your Freedom of Movement/Arcane Might/Ect?

I would houserule you need to keep wearing the ring to retain the benefits. Besides, just Persist the darned FoM :smallbiggrin:

I am currently in a few games (one of them RL game) where we are above level 10. My RL game started us all off at level 5. I am DMing a game that is above to hit level 11 as well.

Jasdoif
2008-04-25, 02:32 PM
As there's no indication that there's an order of operations, ruling Arcane Thesis applied second is no less RAW then applying it first.While not strictly RAW, the general guideline (at least according to the FAQ) is that if no order of operations for effects is given, apply them in the order most beneficial to the controller of the effects. Since both feats belong to the caster, that would be the caster.