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Brauron
2008-04-24, 09:17 PM
So, I want to build a blind swordsman, Zatoichi-style, and I'm wondering how the blindness should be handled, mechanically. A friend who is a character-optimizer said there's Blindness flaws that would help the character in roundabout ways, but didn't elaborate.

I have access to the PHB, PHB II, the entire Complete series, and most other books.

The DM has house-ruled that Listen and Spot are class skills for all classes.

I want to be an ordinary meleeist, not a gish.

Character level 4th.

Any suggestions?

Kizara
2008-04-24, 09:21 PM
Convince your DM to give you blind-fight for free, for starters. Having all your enemies be effective invisible is pretty lose as a melee.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-24, 09:22 PM
If you can use ToB, the diamond mind stance hear the air would likely be good. Besides that, I believe that there are feats in PHB2 and the Heroes of Battle that aid listen checks. The only other think I can think of would be the Synesthete power, but as you don't want to be a gish, that's out(though If your a high enough level, a permanent magic item of it could work).

cupkeyk
2008-04-24, 09:26 PM
This thread reappears every six months. Someone will try to convince you to NOT do it because gimping your self is stupid.

BTW Zatochi is not blind. He closes his eyes to train himself to see in darkness. Basically, get an underfolk human who closes his eyes and uses blindfight.

neochaos
2008-04-24, 09:28 PM
There was one race...Grimlock or something, that geve you blindsense 60ft or something.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-24, 09:30 PM
Blindfold of True Darkness, MIC. As you can't remove it, try to have your DM give it to you for free. It eliminates your vision and gives you blindsight.

Collin152
2008-04-24, 09:32 PM
Take snatch arrows.
"How did you do that?"
"I heard that coming a mile away."
"Very good, Blinkin, well done."
"Pardon? Who's talking?"

FlyMolo
2008-04-24, 09:39 PM
Take snatch arrows.
"How did you do that?"
"I heard that coming a mile away."
"Very good, Blinkin, well done."
"Pardon? Who's talking?"

"You're really blind?"
"Yes."
*waves hand in front of face*
"Don't do that wavy hand thing."

[/ripped wholesale from No Need For Bushido]
But seriously, that guy is awesome.

Brauron
2008-04-24, 09:39 PM
Blindfold of True Darkness, MIC. As you can't remove it, try to have your DM give it to you for free. It eliminates your vision and gives you blindsight.


Sorry if this sounds dumb, but what's MIC stand for?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-24, 09:41 PM
Magic Item Compendium. There's a stickied thread with all of the acronyms used on this board at the top of the page.

Maerok
2008-04-24, 09:52 PM
Flaw: Blind (cannot be healed by magic)

Then by UA, you can take a feat.

Xefas
2008-04-24, 10:18 PM
I'd probably just ask my DM to make it a flavor thing. I'm blind, but take no penalties in combat for being blind. Obviously you'd still get all the non-mechanical "penalties" for being blind, such as not being able to read/write/etc.

But, hey, if the DM thinks I should be gimped for wanting to play an interesting character, then I just wouldn't play an interesting character. Or, rather, I would find other ways to make my character interesting that he can't turn into a mechanical penalty to punish me with.

Maerok
2008-04-24, 10:38 PM
A lot of people want to play blind swordsmen or monks or what have you; which is rather impractical, but I won't stand in your way. You'd think they'd have made a PrC or something...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-24, 10:39 PM
There is, but it is 3.0 and monk-specific. Not really what the OP wanted.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-24, 10:43 PM
Grappling isn't hindered much by being blind, especially if you can get blind-fight for free by talking your DM into it. But then you aren't a swordsman. *shrugs*

Avor
2008-04-24, 11:12 PM
My god, just take blind fight with as your human bonus feat.

Then once you hit level 4, make your 18 wis 19, and get blind sight, like you can see 5 feet.

That will get you your effect. You will be blind, but get up close, you fight just fine.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-24, 11:14 PM
You need blind sight for that. Blind sense doesn't negate the miss chance from not being able to see your target.

Avor
2008-04-24, 11:20 PM
Great, now I can't find it. A feat that gives you a 5 radius of normal sight, even if you are blind/in the dark.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-24, 11:22 PM
I think it is in CW.

Ascension
2008-04-24, 11:25 PM
5 feet won't really help much. You'd have to have your teammates push you in the direction of enemies. Really, any special sight with a radius less than 30ft isn't all that helpful.

Avor
2008-04-24, 11:35 PM
I think it is in CW.

No, just found it, Sword and Fist page 5.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-24, 11:44 PM
I believe it's also in CW, as Sword and fist is 3.0. And really, its pretty much a waste of a feat unless you can get a longer range form, like Ascension said.

Avor
2008-04-24, 11:50 PM
And really, its pretty much a waste of a feat unless you can get a longer range form, like Ascension said.

Not really, use normal listen checks to get a idea who is where. Run up and do them in good.

Yes being blind is a disadvantage, but what do you expect! It's blindness!!! You can't just take some feats and expect to magicaly mean nothing.

5 foot radius is more than generous.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-24, 11:57 PM
Or, instead of wasting feats, you can spend 9,000 gp and negate all of the combat problems. I'd rather do that, personally.

Quietus
2008-04-25, 12:24 AM
Major problems of being blind, aside from the whole "How the hell do you travel?" :

Heal checks become a pain in the neck, stabilizing friends is near-impossible.
Potions are only useful if you know exactly what's in them.
-4 penalty on all strength and dex based skills
No spot checks (though it's fun for the DM to ask you for spot checks anyway).
Everything in the world is treated as Invisible to you (You're flat-footed, they get +2 to hit against you, and I THINK you draw an AoO every round... can't remember where I read that last). Blind-fight helps cover this.

However, having a good Listen check is fantastic for covering your bases - there's a feat I think in the PHB2, Hear the Unseen, that lets you pinpoint someone's location with a DC 25 Listen check, and gives a +5 bonus to listen checks to locate invisible opponents... or something to that effect. Skill Focus : Listen becomes far more important, and Blind-fight is near necessary in combat. If you decide to go for the full penalties of being blind, try to convince your DM to give you those three feats for free - or at the very least, Blind-Fight, and possibly Hear the Unseen. The full penalties for blindness are incredibly rough, it's certainly a flaw worth more than one feat.

Alternatively, when I was rolling a blind monk a year or so ago, Bears with Lasers suggested that instead of going through the full thing of being blind, simply roleplaying it (as in, no spot checks, etc), and "flavoring" my misses as being the result of my blindness. I don't like that option, myself, I like to have things represented mechanically, but it's certainly a do-able option, and wouldn't require taking such an enormous hit to your effectiveness.

Baidas Kebante
2008-04-25, 12:30 AM
Not really, use normal listen checks to get a idea who is where. Run up and do them in good.

Yes being blind is a disadvantage, but what do you expect! It's blindness!!! You can't just take some feats and expect to magicaly mean nothing.

5 foot radius is more than generous.

Five foot radius is one step. That means you can only react to someone standing right in front of you. That's not "generous" by any definition of the word. 30 foot radius means six steps. That means immediate area with room to dodge, side-step and the like.

By the way, he wants to recreate Zatoichi. The whole point behind the character is that while he is blind, he does not move nor fight in a way that is handicapped by it. That's the flavour. This is not normal blindness, but blindness with proper training for compensation.

The_Snark
2008-04-25, 12:35 AM
No, just found it, Sword and Fist page 5.

Also in Deities and Demigods, which means it got put into the SRD. Here you go (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRadius).

It's blindsight, which is nice; unfortunately, needing 19 Wisdom puts it out of the reach of most characters. Wisdom is not an important stat for your average swordsman.

cupkeyk
2008-04-25, 12:47 AM
Or Combat Awareness from PH2. Combined with scorpion's sense or a similar feat for tremorsense like abilities.

Nekoshodan
2008-04-25, 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baidas Kebante


Quote:
Originally Posted by Avor
Not really, use normal listen checks to get a idea who is where. Run up and do them in good.

Yes being blind is a disadvantage, but what do you expect! It's blindness!!! You can't just take some feats and expect to magicaly mean nothing.

5 foot radius is more than generous.



Five foot radius is one step. That means you can only react to someone standing right in front of you.


It must be really easy to sneak up on you, if you can't even react until you see someone.

Ascension
2008-04-25, 01:06 AM
Also in Deities and Demigods, which means it got put into the SRD. Here you go (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRadius).

It's blindsight, which is nice; unfortunately, needing 19 Wisdom puts it out of the reach of most characters. Wisdom is not an important stat for your average swordsman.

While I don't like this option much, I will say that Swordsage would not only fit the build thematically but would also have WIS synergy. You're still pretty useless, but at least you're useless... with style!

Attilargh
2008-04-25, 01:09 AM
Nekoshodan: Them's the rules. A character is flat-footed against attacks from enemies he can't see.


BTW Zatochi is not blind. He closes his eyes to train himself to see in darkness. Basically, get an underfolk human who closes his eyes and uses blindfight.
I'm not sure about the original series, but in the 2003 remake he's honestly blind.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-25, 01:14 AM
While I don't like this option much, I will say that Swordsage would not only fit the build thematically but would also have WIS synergy. You're still pretty useless, but at least you're useless... with style!

Actually, if your high enough level, I believe the 5th level stance hear the air lets you "see" invisible creatures, so your uselessness may be a bit overstated in that case.

The_Snark
2008-04-25, 01:16 AM
While I don't like this option much, I will say that Swordsage would not only fit the build thematically but would also have WIS synergy. You're still pretty useless, but at least you're useless... with style!

True, and that Diamond Mind stance that gives you 30' blindsense would be handy for letting you see more of the battlefield.

Blind people are hard to do in D&D. I tried playing a blind seer once, with the DM ruling that spells like True Seeing would give him essentially a sort of vision-sight. Seeing into the present, rather than the future, sort of thing. (Vaguely like Discworld looking back, not that I made that connection at the time.) It worked out okay, but eventually we just decided to give him a sort of permanent divine ad hoc "vision", enough so that he could target spells and the like. Obviously that doesn't quite work for a swordsman, but playing loosely with the mechanics to get the flavor you want might work better than trying to do this by the usual blindness rules.