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Schala
2008-04-25, 05:12 AM
Okay, so who else here likes the Bard class? Personally, bards are my favorite class but I always get ridiculed (playfully of course) whenever I decide to play one. I know it isn't a popular class but I am sure I'm not the only one who likes and favors them?

nerulean
2008-04-25, 05:18 AM
Bard's relatively popular on the boards. True, it may not be the most optimized class in existence, but it has a lot of different ways to play it and is rather entertaining. I love playing high charisma 'face' characters, and my favourite character ever was a bard.

Skjaldbakka
2008-04-25, 05:34 AM
I think bard is what the primary spellcasters should look like. A few class features like bardic music and bardic lore, and a 0-6th spellcasting progression pre-epic, with 7-9th level spells being epic level (but still included in the core book).

Ascension
2008-04-25, 05:44 AM
Bards, unlike monks, can indeed be quite effective. You just need to optimize the heck out of them in order to make them effective. Due to this, and the suspension of disbelief required to accept musical talent turning you into a magic-user, they are often maligned.

I'm quite fond of bards myself, particularly since you can use Perform: Oratory in order to deliver inspiring monologues to your comrades instead of singing to them, but my current DM would probably laugh me out of the room if I tried to play one, and even my last DM took any opportunity to gently mock them.

potatocubed
2008-04-25, 05:44 AM
I love bards. I don't think they make very much sense, especially when you start exploring the further reaches of what constitutes a musical instrument, but they're so much fun. :smallsmile:

Especially with Leadership.

Tempest Fennac
2008-04-25, 05:53 AM
Skjaldbakka, what sort of class features would you use for other spellcasters? (I still tend to see individual spells as being a problem rather then the full casters themselves if I'm honest). I'm planning on playing aBard in a PbP campaign because I thought they looked like a fun class (the group should be quite big, so the Bard's inability to fill any roll on its own shouldn't be a problem).

Starbuck_II
2008-04-25, 06:32 AM
Okay, so who else here likes the Bard class? Personally, bards are my favorite class but I always get ridiculed (playfully of course) whenever I decide to play one. I know it isn't a popular class but I am sure I'm not the only one who likes and favors them?

I love them. But I suggest Prestige classing them around level 7 or 8. I like sublime Chord (from Complete Arcane): a Bard with 9th level spells.
Add in Arcane Strike in Complete warrior for attack boost to make a decent warrior.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-25, 06:55 AM
Bards are cool! I love the variance in their abilities and the huge range of things they can do! :elan:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 06:59 AM
And of course, anybody who mocks bard NEVER saw one with Snowflake Warance on. Seriously, those gut hit ANYTHING, without wasting a use of bardic music.

Also, obligatory link. (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=51)

Keld Denar
2008-04-25, 07:09 AM
The core bard is kind of meh, because I believe that the designers didn't quite understand the scaleing of bard songs (notably Inspire Courage and Suggestion). Inspire Courage scales too slow to be of too much use, and its value as a moral bonus is much less than if its type had been some other less commonly used type. Suggestion on the other hand, scales TOO fast, in my opinion. The DCs on it by level 10 or so can be staggering, to the point where its almost impossible to save.

Outside core, the devs realized the deficiencies of bardic music, particularly Inspire Courage. They created such features as Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart (feat), Words of Creation (feat), Inpirational Boost (spell), and Badge of Valor (item). All of these items increase the value of Inspire Courage to make it a very viable, valuable, and versitile party resource. A bard can swap back and forth between Dragonfire or standard Insp Courage depending on what the party makeup is. 2hand weapon fighter types benefit more from the +hit/dmg due to Power Attack, whereas 2weapon types like rogues, monks, and their kin benefit from Dragonfire due to high number of attacks. The base numerical boost of each feature is improved by the other feats/spells/items to a range that isn't overpowered, but is definitely a strong and viable choice for party buffing, rather than that little +1 everyone always forgets to add because its so minor.

Bards are strong. They are viable in melee, as a primary control caster, as an archer, or as a buffer, or at just about any other role you chose with the right combination of feats/PrCs/ACFs and vision. While its unfortunate to have to span so many different books to create a bard that fills your vision, at least its an option is available.

Good luck and happy barding!

potatocubed
2008-04-25, 07:21 AM
I think the reason core bards feel underpowered is because their whole role is to avoid combat, not win it. They have social skills to help prevent fights breaking out. They have stealth skills to avoid combat. They have illusion magic to escape or avoid combat. Even their whip weapon proficiency is more useful to trip or disarm someone than actually hurt them.

As I see it, a bard's role is to prevent fights, or once they're in a fight to get away clean, make several heavily armed friends (those social skills again) and come back, buffing his new pals from a safe distance. It's just this role doesn't work very well in a lot of games, especially high-combat dungeon-crawling games.

riddles
2008-04-25, 08:34 AM
as any kind of melee character, i love having a well played bard in my party. i think i might try one once i've finished my stint at DMing.

inspire courage ftw

Inhuman Bot
2008-04-25, 08:56 AM
Especially as cohorts, I love bards. My Rouge currently has a Kobold bard cohort that rides around the battle on a dog. I like the healing in combat, the diplomacy out of combat, and the bard song anywhere.

Shishnarfne
2008-04-25, 09:09 AM
Even in Core-Only, the Bard list has a large number of Save or Lose spells to choose from (mostly Enchantments), so even then the Bard can be a force to be feared against an unprepared foe...

However, a second option against foes immune/resistant to Mind-Affecting spells is a very good idea.

I'll also second the comment that Inspire Confidence scales too slowly to be great, and that DC's on Fascinate/Suggestion scale too quickly. I have yet to see a DM allow them to be used in a combat situation for that reason (my interpretation of RAW holds that the guy next to you who just drew a greatsword constitutes an obvious threat, so you shouldn't be able to use Fascinate then, but I've heard people argue that). (Let's try not to derail this thread with that discussion).

Really, if you choose spells (and Magic items and feats) wisely, a bard can be a respectable full caster, even using just Core, but while they won't be equal to a wizard/sorceror trying to do the same job, they will be able to do more things besides casting spells (even without going the Diplomancer road).

Yes, mock the Bard, laugh at him even, but do it because he just dropped a Hideous Laughter on you and you have no choice.

Talya
2008-04-25, 09:54 AM
I'll also second the comment that Inspire Confidence scales too slowly to be great


If you're optimizing at all, Inspire Courage goes up very quickly. It's trivial to hit +3 very early, and +7 by 20. If you have a melee-heavy party, and dual-weilders or power-attackers at all in your party, they'll love you.

For a 2h power attacker, +7 to hit and damage translates to +21 damage per hit.

Totally Guy
2008-04-25, 10:02 AM
When I was a bard, (lasted 2 sessions...) I managed to break out into song three times in the second session.

First I wrote a poem about my backstory to remind the party who I was.

Then I reminded the party of our noble objectives through song.

Thirdly, I figured that the "dark lord" must have an army. Therefore I'll write them a boastful drinking song and I'll sing it as if I'm afraid. But when I came to the session I bardic knowledged "Does the dark lord have an army?" "Yes", "Do they sing drinking songs in the pubs?" "No, they are clockwork"... Which ruined that one. I had to change the all the lyrics to be much less human and more mechanical.

Mando Knight
2008-04-25, 10:16 AM
Is a Bard 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian/Fighter 5 any good for a melee build? I would think so, since the Dragon Disciple gets massive armor and strength bonuses...

Why do gnomes have Bard as their favored class? They have a racial Charisma penalty...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 10:18 AM
No, that's DWARVES. Gnome have a STR penalty.

And nah, that build sucks, because Dragon disciple sucks. Much better to take the Dragonfire Inspiration combo and be SCARIER than most dragons, instead of BECOMING one.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-25, 10:27 AM
Is a Bard 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Barbarian/Fighter 5 any good for a melee build? I would think so, since the Dragon Disciple gets massive armor and strength bonuses...

Why do gnomes have Bard as their favored class? They have a racial Charisma penalty...

You'd be better off as a Green Star Adept (never finish that class though, losing con sucks).

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-25, 10:30 AM
Sublime Chord.

Metamagic Song.

Persist Spell.

Mass Hold Monster.

On the non-optimised side (that may not be very optimised, but it's amusing...), Bards Are Fun.

In fact, I should probably find a Gestalt game and play a Bard//Favoured Soul of Olidammara (Olidammara is fun too, you see...).

Ossian
2008-04-25, 10:32 AM
And of course, anybody who mocks bard NEVER saw one with Snowflake Warance on. Seriously, those gut hit ANYTHING, without wasting a use of bardic music.

Also, obligatory link. (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=51)

NINJA! :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 10:33 AM
You'd be better off as a Green Star Adept (never finish that class though, losing con sucks).

NO! Look at their progression!

Level 1: Minor Suck.
Level 2: Lesser Suck.
Level 3: Suck.
Level 4: Greater Suck.
Level 5: Improved Suck.
Level 6: Empowered Suck.
Level 7: Maximized Suck.
Level 8: Superior Suck.
Level 9: Perfect Suck.
Level 10: Endless Suck.

Seriously. Unless you're playing a whore, Sucking so much hurts, badly.

Shishnarfne
2008-04-25, 10:38 AM
If you're optimizing at all, Inspire Courage goes up very quickly. It's trivial to hit +3 very early, and +7 by 20. If you have a melee-heavy party, and dual-weilders or power-attackers at all in your party, they'll love you.

For a 2h power attacker, +7 to hit and damage translates to +21 damage per hit.

Stacking PrC's? Unfortunately, I don't own enough books to optimize outside of core... Though the Inspire Courage is a nice little bonus (Inspire Heroics are a bit more oomph), and yes, the dual-wielders and Two-handed Power Attackers will appreciate it...
An odd point about the rules versus flavor of that: Usually, the mechanics work best when you sing for one round, then start casting spells/providing flanking bonuses for the rogue, etc. With the benefits lasting 5 rounds after you stop singing, I usually never see the point in singing longer than one round (unless I'm low enough level that I have to really ration abilities).

Though I will concede this to those who insult Bards... playing a level one Bard is tough. Two cantrips per day, one use of Bardic Music, and a +0 BAB... I remember using aid another a lot, and trying to occaisionally drop a daze. At least I got to wear armor when I gave the rogue a flanking bonus.

Mando Knight
2008-04-25, 10:42 AM
No, that's DWARVES. Gnome have a STR penalty.

Ah... you're right. The deep gnomes seem to have a hefty CHA penalty and the Bard favored class, though... and LA... though I am looking through the NWN2 manual, so it's not necessarily the most reliable source of information...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 10:44 AM
Svirfneblin? Oh, gods no. They have Rogue as their Favored Class. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#svirfneblin)

Starbuck_II
2008-04-25, 10:50 AM
NO! Look at their progression!

Level 1: Minor Suck.
Level 2: Lesser Suck.
Level 3: Suck.
Level 4: Greater Suck.
Level 5: Improved Suck.
Level 6: Empowered Suck.
Level 7: Maximized Suck.
Level 8: Superior Suck.
Level 9: Perfect Suck.
Level 10: Endless Suck.

Seriously. Unless you're playing a whore, Sucking so much hurts, badly.

Come on, the 1st level doesn't suck: you DR 1/Adam, +1 caster, +1 NA/Str, -1 Dex.
All balance Prc lose at least 1 Spellcasting level.
2nd Level: Okay, that sucks. A natural attack? (What really?) You get +2 saves versus random Fort things. Dr does improve. +1 spellcasting
3rd Level: DR improves, gain Fortification (coud buy it though)
4th level: Dark/Low light vision (meh), DR improves, +1 Str/NA. +1 spellcaster.
5th Level : DR improves, Again more bonuses to Fort saves things,
6th level: DR improves, Fortification 50% (come on, admit that is nice), +1 spellcaster.
After level 6, the class is filled with suck I'll admit.

Really, level 2 to 4, if the best to stop. 6th is iffy, but nice.

And whores are people too!

Telonius
2008-04-25, 10:52 AM
The Bard is a full caster, and gets UMD and Diplomacy (two of the most powerful skills in the game) as class skills. Also, a boatload of skill points to spend on things. Not worthless in the slightest.

EDIT: Also, qualifies for Incantatrix fairly easily. Yay cooperative metamagic!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 10:53 AM
Think of it: It requires caster levels, but is a meleer. It is supposed to melee, but it loses CON and has the average BAB. It has a crappy skill list. It can't heal. It can't do ANY role well. Hence, why it's nicknamed The Suckomancer.

And nay, Whores are not people. They're changeling and Doppelgangers.

Except Sacred Prostitutes. Those are the gods of casters.

Frosty
2008-04-25, 10:55 AM
They created such features as Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart (feat), Words of Creation (feat), Inpirational Boost (spell), and Badge of Valor (item).

Badge of Valor is from MiC most likely. Can you list the sources for the other stuff? I've never created a bard before and I'd really like to at least know the basics behind a one that's effective in melee and also boosting other peoples' melee.

Starbuck_II
2008-04-25, 10:56 AM
Think of it: It requires caster levels, but is a meleer. It is supposed to melee, but it loses CON and has the average BAB. It has a crappy skill list. It can't heal. It can't do ANY role well. Hence, why it's nicknamed The Suckomancer.

And nay, Whores are not people. They're changeling and Doppelgangers.

Except Sacred Prostitutes. Those are the gods of casters.

Would full bab, letting you keep Con (even as a Construct), and improved HD help the Green Star Adept?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 11:02 AM
Yes, but you would still be subpar. First off, you sacrifice BAB for useless spell levels. Second, you gain no bonus feats or special combat focused abilities to make up for the preqs.

And Third, you're still a Suckomancer addicted to Space Crack. No way to salvage that.

Ascension
2008-04-25, 11:29 AM
Could we actually get back to talking about bards here?

I'm a fan of the melee bard, myself. I'd really like to play a Bard/War Chanter (with snowflake wardance, of course, and might as well go with TWF if you're wardancing, since it's limited to light weapons (IIRC)). War Chanter isn't the best PrC out there, but it is fun. Let out a Singing Shout at the start of battle, then combine songs to Inspire Legion and Inspire Recklessness simultaneously... Oh look, everyone in the party has +4 strength, full BAB, and the ability to convert AC to attack bonus. Oh, and I'm doing the wardance. Nobody in the party is going to miss anything. 'specially not me.

Keld Denar
2008-04-25, 12:47 PM
Badge of Valor is from MiC most likely. Can you list the sources for the other stuff? I've never created a bard before and I'd really like to at least know the basics behind a one that's effective in melee and also boosting other peoples' melee.

Song of the Heart is in the Ebberon Campaign Sourcebook. Its available as both a feat and as an alt class feature (giving up inspire competance.....WAY worth it!).

Dragonfire Inspiration converts your +x/+x inspire courage into a straight +xd6 fire damage. Its in Dragon Magic. Alternatively, if you have draconic heratige of some sort (dragonwraught kobald, dragonblooded) then you gain the energy type of your ancestor (steel and mist? dragons are best for sonic type energy damage).

Words of Creation is a feat from BoED which requires you to be an exalted character. If you take xd4 subdual damage (where x is the required ranks in Perform required to use the ability (IE 3 for Inspire Courage). It doubles all of the bonuses from the various bard songs. Most people debate what gets included in this doubling, but I personally think it only applies to base bard song. I honestly don't think this feat is worth the hassle of exalted status (why be a bard if you can't play pranks?). From a purely optimizer PoV, this feat is a must have.

Badge of Valor is indeed in MIC, in the back with the set items. The set is intended for a Bard/Marshall blend, but Badge is great for a pure bard as well. You activate the Badge as an immediate action to increase the effects of your Inspire Courage ability by 1.

Inspirational Boost is a swift action Bard1 spell in Spell Compendium (a reprint from Comp Adv??). Casting it before beginning a Inspire Courage increases the song by 1. The trick with that is to cast Insp Boost, then Inspire Courage, then at the end of your turn, trip the Badge (uses next turns swift action). This nets you a nice +2 to your song enough times per day that it isn't an issue usually.

Another item I didn't mention is the Vest of Legends. Its in DMGII and gives a +5 to your effective bard level to determine your music abilities. This nets you the max rank of Inspire at level 15 instead of 20, although I don't know how it would scale into epics (at level 20, you'd Inspire as a level 25 bard??). It also has some other small benefits such as bonuses to perform checks, which is great with Melodic Casting, the feat that lets you cast while singing and swap perform with concentration checks.

Frosty
2008-04-25, 12:58 PM
Thanks, but what does Song of the Heart actually do? And how do I turn the bard into a scary melee mofo? Should I go Tiger-Claw to get lots of attacks? how does bard synergize with crusader?

BardicDuelist
2008-04-25, 02:41 PM
Bard's are great. My second favorite class (Factotum is now my favorite).

Bard/Lyric Thaumaturge/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso is very powerful, but not broken.

Chronos
2008-04-25, 03:19 PM
Though I will concede this to those who insult Bards... playing a level one Bard is tough. Two cantrips per day, one use of Bardic Music, and a +0 BAB... I remember using aid another a lot, and trying to occaisionally drop a daze. At least I got to wear armor when I gave the rogue a flanking bonus.Sure, bards suck at first level. But that's just because everything but druids and warlocks suck at first level. They get better.

Frosty-- Song of the Heart (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Song_Of_The_Heart,)

Frosty
2008-04-25, 04:02 PM
Damned work censor. I can't read that site either Chronos. Thanks for linking though.

Draz74
2008-04-25, 04:33 PM
Damned work censor. I can't read that site either Chronos. Thanks for linking though.

Adds 1 to bardic music effects (whether they are bonuses to d20 rolls, bonus hit dice of temp HP, or save DCs).

The Sandman
2008-04-25, 04:49 PM
Chaos Music is also an amazing feat to take, especially if you're multiclassing. It adds four to your bard level for all bardic music related purposes, including (presumably) what types of music you have access to. The only downside is that it also gives you a chaotic aura.

Oh, and a fun combo: Slippers of Battledancing + Ring of Entropic Deflection + Snowflake Wardance. As long as you can keep moving, the Slippers of Battledancing replace your Strength mod with your Charisma mod for attack and damage rolls, which stacks with the Snowflake Wardance. The ring, meanwhile, gives a 20% miss chance to all ranged attacks made against you, which is upped to 50% by synergy with the Slippers. The best part? Unless I read the relevant descriptions horribly wrong, that includes ranged touch attacks. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2008-04-25, 05:30 PM
Thanks, but what does Song of the Heart actually do? And how do I turn the bard into a scary melee mofo? Should I go Tiger-Claw to get lots of attacks? how does bard synergize with crusader?

Um...Bard4/Warblade16 or Bard4/Crusader16 are both very potent melee builds. They end up getting the best of both worlds with Song of the White Raven. The warblade does more damage with Xing Mongoose and Time Stands Still while TWF with short swords or kukiris, while the crusader is the ultimate friend of the party, inspiring all kinds of courage while utilizing Devoted Spirit shanananananananagans. Someone over on CharOp did a very extensive review on the main builds and differences, but I can't for the life of me find it. I think it was by JanusJones, but my brain is fuzzy from working with AutoCAD all day.

EDIT:
FOUND IT!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=795369&highlight=bardic

Frosty
2008-04-25, 06:15 PM
But isn't Inspire Courage based off of your bard levels? If you only have 8 bard levels, how do you get a high enough Inspire to go with your Dragonfire Inspiration?

Hmm, I gotta look at that link later but if I do it in a gestalt game, I'd go Crusader for the Charisma synergy with both bard and warlock. Plus, Mettle is nice, and you can even Smite once a day :p

Townopolis
2008-04-25, 07:06 PM
But isn't Inspire Courage based off of your bard levels? If you only have 8 bard levels, how do you get a high enough Inspire to go with your Dragonfire Inspiration?

Hmm, I gotta look at that link later but if I do it in a gestalt game, I'd go Crusader for the Charisma synergy with both bard and warlock. Plus, Mettle is nice, and you can even Smite once a day :p

Your Warblade and Crusader levels stack with your Bard levels for determining the effect of your Inspire Courage ability.

^ from the Song of the White Raven feat.

Frosty
2008-04-25, 08:29 PM
So you can activate Inspire Courage as a swift action. You don't have to concentrate on it do you? How long does the Inspire last? It says as long as your allies cna hear you. Does that mean you can speak as a free action each turn to sing or whatever to keep the effect going?

Starbuck_II
2008-04-25, 08:42 PM
So you can activate Inspire Courage as a swift action. You don't have to concentrate on it do you? How long does the Inspire last? It says as long as your allies cna hear you. Does that mean you can speak as a free action each turn to sing or whatever to keep the effect going?

Standard action to maintain: Dur as long as use and 5 rounds after.

Townopolis
2008-04-25, 08:51 PM
Nope, maintaining inspire courage is not an action at all, you just "continue singing" and your allies have to be within earshot to benefit. SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#bardicMusic)

You can't cast spells while singing though, unless you take melodic casting.

FinalJustice
2008-04-25, 08:56 PM
For all bard-melee lovers, check the Gloves of Heartfelt Blows on Dragon Compendium. Cha on damage, it's fire, easily resistible, but it's still not negligible, and just for 14k gp if I'm not wrong.

Hal
2008-04-25, 09:43 PM
I cannot remember what it is now, but there is either a feat or a spell that doubles the duration of Inspire Courage. So, it lasts for a full minute after you cease to perform. If only I had my books in front of me . . .

Keld Denar
2008-04-26, 07:11 AM
I cannot remember what it is now, but there is either a feat or a spell that doubles the duration of Inspire Courage. So, it lasts for a full minute after you cease to perform. If only I had my books in front of me . . .

That would be Lingering Song....however there is a +2 eqiv weapon enhancement in MIC called Harmonizing that gives you roughly the same effect, plus some other nice things. That and the enhacement that gives you +1/2 bard level to damage (for striaght bards) and Sudden Stunning from DMGII (for people with maxed +cha) are very nice enhancements for a melee bard or one seeking to maximize use of Whirling Blade. Sudden Stunning is so amazing.

Devin
2008-04-26, 07:41 AM
Can someone link to that awesome picture of a Ravenloft Bard with blood on her bowstring? That seems like it would fit here. :smallbiggrin:

Partysan
2008-04-26, 01:15 PM
I remember that picture... I think I even stole it^^ sadly I don't remember the link... maybe someone else can help you.

However some time ago on this board somebody posted a build for a 3 or 4 bard team... at least one multiclassed with a ToB class, I think one Sublime Chord... they had insane bonuses and I think used leadership for an insanely buffed up army... can anyone remember that build and post it again or link it? It seemed quite awesome to me :smallbiggrin:

nerulean
2008-04-26, 04:26 PM
Hehehe, multiple buffing characters for the win. The only reason not to have parties of four bards is all the freakin' paperwork they produce.

Arbitrarity
2008-04-26, 05:27 PM
I need a replacement gish class for this build, but I was thinking of trying something like bard4/swordsage1/crusader1/JPM1/(3.0)Virtuoso 1/JPM2/SubCh 1/Full BAB PRC 2/JPM 7.

Should I go spellsword, then something else? I'm not sure about abjurant champion being the best option here, as bards don't get shield, or mage armor-like spells.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-26, 06:18 PM
Sublime Chord.

Metamagic Song.

Persist Spell.

Mass Hold Monster.

On the non-optimised side (that may not be very optimised, but it's amusing...), Bards Are Fun.

In fact, I should probably find a Gestalt game and play a Bard//Favoured Soul of Olidammara (Olidammara is fun too, you see...).

Nah, if you want to go crazy with a Bard....

UA variant Savage Bard (for the good Fort Save)-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge (Bard, Ur-Priest)-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge+5 (Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord)/Other full casting Arcane PrC-4 (Sublime Chord).

Casts as:
Bard-8
Ur-Priest 10 (caster level depends on interpretation, but will be either 12, 13, or 19 before Practiced Spellcaster (recommended))
Sublime Chord 10 (depending on interpretation, caster level of either 15 or 18 before Practiced Spellcaster (recommended))

Downsides: You're Chaotic Evil, illiterate, all the gods hate you (including the evil ones), you're drowning in gouda, and you've got two primary casting stats (Wisdom and Charisma) to worry about.

BRC
2008-04-26, 07:04 PM
The problem with bards is that, while every other core class is based around combat, the best thing for a bard to do in combat 90% of the time is just keep singing, so if you play a bard in a combat-heavy campaign first get that head injury treated, then bring a book.


In non hack and slash games, bards can be very useful, but most games are based around hack and slash

nerulean
2008-04-26, 08:07 PM
A bard can function perfectly fine in a combat heavy campaign, but does require a certain ability to let others take the limelight that is rightfully yours. Of course, if you optimise sufficiently then you'll be powerful, but if your party have optimised to the same extent then they're probably more powerful, and all of your buffs are making them even more so.

BRC
2008-04-26, 08:29 PM
A bard can function perfectly fine in a combat heavy campaign, but does require a certain ability to let others take the limelight that is rightfully yours. Of course, if you optimise sufficiently then you'll be powerful, but if your party have optimised to the same extent then they're probably more powerful, and all of your buffs are making them even more so.
I'm not saying bards arn't useful in a Combat-Heavy campaign, quite the opposite in fact. At level 1 a bard esentially gives all their allies +1 weapons. However, bards are boring to play in a combat-heavy campaign.

sonofzeal
2008-04-26, 08:50 PM
I'm not saying bards arn't useful in a Combat-Heavy campaign, quite the opposite in fact. At level 1 a bard esentially gives all their allies +1 weapons. However, bards are boring to play in a combat-heavy campaign.
Agreed. Lingering Song and Disciple of Metal (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=852283) make them much more fun to play though, the first because you can afford to stop singing and try to stab people, and the second so that you look totally badass doing it. :smallcool:

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-27, 02:22 AM
I haven't played as a Bard, but I did add a level to my Dervish build that I've been working on so I could get Snowflake Wardance.

I wanted to get as much dancing as I could, but I also really wanted to be able to say Snowflake Dervish Dance. :smallwink:

The Sandman
2008-04-27, 02:32 AM
That would be Lingering Song....however there is a +2 eqiv weapon enhancement in MIC called Harmonizing that gives you roughly the same effect, plus some other nice things.

Actually, as far as RAW goes, I think those would stack. Lingering song won't kick in until the music ends, which won't be until the duration of the Harmonizing effect runs out.

Saihyol
2008-04-27, 06:56 AM
I like Bards for their flexibility. This has always been the core of the class for me as they are able to do a little of everything.

They have:
Good skill options and skill points (particularly around sneak and diplomatic options), some arcane magic, some divine magic, moderate BAB progression, moderate HP, team buffs/supernatural ability, can wear armour, random knowledge.

The impact of this is that they are not as good at any of these things as a class designed to do just a few of these things and that seems the right thing to me, they are a sub for most classes;

Need a little more healing? Bard.
Need a little more magic? Bard.
Need a little more melee? Bard.
Need a little more sneaking? Bard.
Need a bonus for any skill? Bard.
Need to convince that NPC of anything? Bard.

Essentially I take a Bard when there are 5 players or more. Core skill sets: Combat, Arcane, Divine, Sneak. If we have these four the Bard rounds out the party with the option of adding to any of them.

Games where it is pure H&S do leave the Bard looking underpowered, I usually end up with the Bard using ranged attacks behind the main melee types and acting as a shield for the pure casters should anything get through. In any game where skills and knowledge, interactions and diplomacy come into play: Bard FTW.

The only thing that bugs me about them (and I know this is a major part) is the singing. The mechanical bonuses I like but the idea that we charge a group of monsters with my character singing away has always made me cringe.

Don't get me wrong on this either, the idea of a minstrel type persona who travels, plays music at taverns and picks up random knowledge is cool (If you've read Robin Hobb's Assassin series - and if you haven't I strongly recommend it - Starling and her description of minstrels is exactly how I imagine bards). What I find less convincing is the concept of singing/playing a lute into combat.

My favourite bard I've played though was a musician:

War-drummer - this was a variant the DM and I came up with together for a campaign where the party were the remains of a barbaric tribe - basically we striped the non-combat music (suggestion/fascinate/inspire competence) and boosted the combat impact. If I remember rightly I got to improve Barbarian rage (duration and provided a 'free' use) create a fear effect and improved damage from inspire courage more quickly.

nerulean
2008-04-27, 07:04 AM
Agreed. Lingering Song and Disciple of Metal (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=852283) make them much more fun to play though, the first because you can afford to stop singing and try to stab people, and the second so that you look totally badass doing it. :smallcool:

Yanno, Inspire Courage requires a free action to maintain. You can keep singing and try to stab people in the same round.

Still, I get the fundamental point. I wouldn't play a bard in a combat heavy campaign, but I know people who have and have enjoyed it, especially when the party on the whole hasn't been godawfully powerful.

Townopolis
2008-04-27, 01:28 PM
1 Medium Armor Proficiency
1 Battle Caster
3 Martial Weapon Proficiency: Falchion
6 Melodic Casting
9 Power Attack
12 Leap Attack
15 Sound of Silence
18 Enchanting Melody

+X Keen Falchion (Slow Burst, Stunning Surge, Heavenly Burst, & Blue Ice recommended additions)

Simple and reasonably effective melee bard build. Self-buff with Mirror Image, Haste, and Greater Invisibility. Expeditious Retreat may also prove useful if the battlefield is spread out, but 1st level slots are better used on Inspirational Boost.

Be sure to pick up the normal array of Inspire Courage items. Now you have a self-buffed AB higher than the unbuffed AB of most fighters. You won't be able to PA for 20, but that's an acceptable loss. You can also silence casters and supply combat utility spells in the heat of battle. If you don't have any faith in the value of a suit of mithral full plate, replace the level 1 feats with whatever you want.

There are plenty of ways to make a bard fun and engaging in a combat-heavy game. If you do so, you will sacrifice improving your non-combat abilities, but who cares if you're in a hack-n-slash?

quiet1mi
2008-04-27, 01:58 PM
is there a way to make Bard's a combat competitive class by using only the players hand book?

Townopolis
2008-04-27, 02:19 PM
It's hard, since every single bard feat is non-core. My best idea is to take advantage of the automatic whip proficiency, get a decent STR score and make a combination buffer/controller. Expertise, Disarm, & Trip. You may also wish to take either Augment Summoning or Spell Focus: Enchantment.

Or, just focus on archery feats and hang behind the party taking pot-shots at the baddies.

sonofzeal
2008-04-27, 02:23 PM
Yanno, Inspire Courage requires a free action to maintain. You can keep singing and try to stab people in the same round.
That only works if you sing or play the kazoo, and most DMs I've played with expect you to play one of the traditional bard instruments (I've had at least one refuse to allow bardic music to use Perform: Singing). Kinda hard to stab people and play the lute at the same time.


is there a way to make Bard's a combat competitive class by using only the players hand book?
Short answer: not really

Long answer: look at the class compared to Fighters. You've got worse hp, worse BAB, worse armor, worse weapon options, no bonus feats, and there's only a handful of class abilities and spells in core that are useful in combat, and any offensive spells are nerfed by lower DCs 'cause you don't go up spell levels as quickly as all the other casters. The only way I can think of for a core bard to contribute to combat better than a Fighter is by buffing the people who can actually fight. Glibness + Improved Feint + Rogue levels would have potential, but even then they specifically nerfed Glibness to prevent that. Now, someone's likely going to come along and point out a couple ways, but if combat is your concern I'd still go with the Fighter and to a tripper or power attacker build.

That said, the single most gamebreakingly powerful character I've ever played was a Bard/Marshal/Divine.Mind. That's using Eberron, BoED, Miniatures, Stormwrack, and Complete Psi, so.... little bit outside core there.

holywhippet
2008-04-27, 05:40 PM
is there a way to make Bard's a combat competitive class by using only the players hand book?

I'm currently playing with a halfling bard (with a first level of rogue) in a 3.0 core rules campaign. My character has a dex of 16 and has a pair of masterwork javelins, he took the point blank shot feat. Consider what that means for attack bonus for thrown attacks at level 2 against a nearby opponent:

small size = +1
dex bonus = +3
point blank shot = +1
racial bonus = +1
masterwork weapon bonus = +1
inspire courage = +1

That's a +8 bonus. Even after both javelins are thrown he can keep on tossing darts at +7 as long as his song lasts.

The larger the party, the more useful a bard is as their song powers affect every ally within range. They can use spells to buff up their allies. Give them a wand of cure XXX wounds and they they can act as a backup healer.

Depending on the campaign style, on their best traits is bardic knowledge. It's more or less a free chance to know things which you don't have the knowledge skill for, or a second chance if you do.

nerulean
2008-04-28, 05:40 AM
That only works if you sing or play the kazoo, and most DMs I've played with expect you to play one of the traditional bard instruments (I've had at least one refuse to allow bardic music to use Perform: Singing). Kinda hard to stab people and play the lute at the same time.

Wow, really? That's pretty harsh, not to mention contradictory to the intended abilities of the class. Even at the early stages of 3.0 design, I think Wizards realised that saying 'I keep singing' every round would be as boring as all get-out. It doesn't match the written rules, either.


While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.

Heck, you can do it by whistling. The only reason not to is so you can get the bonuses to bardsong from the CAd instruments.

On the other hand, it could be fun to play a bard with some sort of spiked adamantium maracas... :smallbiggrin:

Pirate_King
2008-04-28, 10:00 AM
My friend's first bard was named Ethril the Whistler. Upside, you have no need of the spell summon instrument. His bards have always been my favorite part of the game. His current bard is a half-orc "Bardbarian" multi-class. His instrument is the drum, which is also his weapon. He basically bangs on his shield with his club while chanting. My current bard's instrument is a harmonica, loosely based on Stile of Piers Anthony's blue adept trilogy. The harmonica is also a dagger, the blade shoots out like a weird sort of switchblade. For flavor, I decided that it was a D harmica that changes to a C harmonica when the blade is out.