PDA

View Full Version : Breaking Saving Throws



Ponce
2008-04-25, 08:22 AM
Hey all. Trying to make a character that acts as a caster's best friend. Meat shielding helps, but really, I want to be able to help the caster cast. How to do this? Well, I've been trying to accumulate material that allows you to damage enemy saving throws. Since the penalties are untyped and from different sources, they stack, correct? I have the following:

Hexblade: Dark Companion imposes a -2 penalty on all saves. Hexblade curse can apply -2 or more, but itself allows a save.
Paladin of Tyranny: Aura of Despair imposes a -2 penalty on adjacent enemies.
Blackguard: Same as the Paladin.
Frightful Presence: Will save or be shaken when the character charges/attacks. Only works on enemies with equal or fewer HD, however. Is there a more efficient way to apply the "shakened" condition to opponents?

One of the benefits of this kind of build is that the above abilities are all passive, or require only swift actions to initiate. This means you can still take power attack or what have you and go at it. Will this idea work? What kind of penalty would I need to shoot for at high-end play? Most importantly, what other material is there that I can use?

On a related note, are there similar abilities that harm opponents' spell resistance?

Darrin
2008-04-25, 08:56 AM
Frightful Presence: Will save or be shaken when the character charges/attacks. Only works on enemies with equal or fewer HD, however. Is there a more efficient way to apply the "shakened" condition to opponents?


Person_Man was working on a fear-based build in this "Fear the Bard" thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67232

The default method to render a target "shaken" is with an Intimidate check, but this requires a standard action. However, there's an armor enhancement in Drow of the Underdark called "Fearsome" (p. 97) that lets you make an Intimidate check as a move action.

Also in the same book, there's an Ambush feat called "Terrifying Strike" that renders a target shaken for one round, but it's darned near useless because it doesn't stack with any other shaken effects, including itself.

More promising is the Imperious Command feat (same book, p. 50) which causes the target of a successful demoralize foe check to cower for one round, and then they're shaken for another round. However, I'm not entirely sure how this stacks with other "shaken" effects.

Intimidating Strike (PHB2) might be useful. Requires a single attack as a standard action, and you can pump up your Intimidate check similar to Power Attack by sacrificing BAB on your attack roll. It doesn't stack with other shaken effects, but it could be the basis for stacking additional shaken effects.

Haunting Melody (Heroes of Horror) is probably the best way to apply shaken effects multiple times, since there is no HD cap and its effects stack with both itself and other shaken effects.

Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin) is another good way to completely bone a target's saves. Requires spending a bardic music attempt and the target gets a will save, but if they fail, they take a -10 on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks for 1 round.

Person_Man
2008-04-25, 10:13 AM
Demoralize Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911167)
Debuff Optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=15310338)

My Fear the Bard build never worked out the way I wanted. But consider War Chanter from Comp Warrior: Full BAB, levels stack for Bardic music, can Inspire Recklessness (Shocktrooper), Inspire Awe (fear effect), Inspire Legion (everyone uses the highest BAB of the group), and can use 2 Bard songs at once.

Combine with Doomspeak from Champions of Ruin. Use Bardic music to impose a -10 penalty on one enemy for one round.

Use Doomspeak and Inspire Recklessness together. Have your caster friend Dominate those you debuff. Use Inspire Recklessness/Legion and your new friends.

If your enemy is immune to mind affecting effects, just have him Summon, and you can buff a ton of Animated Objects or whatnot.

What ECL are you playing at?

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-25, 10:21 AM
Knights (PHB2) get a Swift Action challenge ability to shake enemies with a CR equal to ECL-2 or less. Not bad, and the Knight also gets some decent tanking abilities to help protect the caster.

Ponce
2008-04-25, 10:48 AM
Wow, Doomspeak sounds amazing. It'll be especially helpful in single encounters. I'll definitely try to work that in.

Person_Man, those links are extremely helpful! Thank you!

I'm trying to see if this will be halfway decent at any level. With those links, I ought to be able to achieve a decent debuff to saves even very early on. By end of game its looking like a consistent -15 or more, which is more than I could have hoped for. Generally though, I don't play past level 15.

Knight is great for this build. A few levels should fit in somewhere.

After seeing all this, I sincerely hope the DM isn't enforcing multiclass penalties. :smallbiggrin:

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-04-25, 11:13 AM
Since the penalties are untyped and from different sources, they stack, correct?
A source is the name of the effect or feature, regardless of the class it comes from. So the Aura of Despair penalties would not stack unless explicitly called out in the effect text. They are considered the same source: "Aura of Despair."

Person_Man
2008-04-25, 11:13 AM
Knight is an excellent class, if you want to go Knight 20. All of its Saves depend on your Knight level though. So I wouldn't suggest multi-classing into Knight.

Doomspeak + Inspire Awe is probably your best option. Bard 1/Hexblade 4/War Chanter 10/Whatever 5.

If you don't like Bard builds, take a good look at the Demoralize thread. With the right combo, you can Demoralize as a Swift or Free action, and effect everyone within 30 feet, and make them Cower on the first round they're Demoralized.

Unfortunately, this combo doesn't really kick in until ECL 10ish (because you need 5 levels of Scarlet Corsair for it to affect everyone within 30 feet). And it doesn't mesh well with Hexblade, since you need Intimidating Rage or Zhentarim Soldier or access to Hustle so that you can Demoralize as a Free or Swift action.

Ponce
2008-04-25, 11:21 AM
A source is the name of the effect or feature, regardless of the class it comes from. So the Aura of Despair penalties would not stack unless explicitly called out in the effect text. They are considered the same source: "Aura of Despair."

Aye, my post was a bit misleading. I mean to say that the hexblade ability and the aura would stack. I wouldn't take blackguard and paladin of tyranny together anyway. To me, they don't seem to be intended to be taken together. That's just my opinion though.

I'm AFB at the current moment, but I'll be able to post my intended build at the end of the day. It originally involved PaladinOfTyranny3/HexbladeX/???. I'll now try to fit Ravager in there as well as sufficient bard levels, and incorporate the Aura of Sadness vestige in the CO boards link. Thanks again for the help everyone!

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-04-25, 12:42 PM
Aye, my post was a bit misleading. I mean to say that the hexblade ability and the aura would stack.
I figured that was probably the idea, but one one of my hobbies is needlessly clarifying things that really aren't all that murky anyway. What can I say? I'm obsessed with clarity. :smalltongue:


I wouldn't take blackguard and paladin of tyranny together anyway. To me, they don't seem to be intended to be taken together. That's just my opinion though.
Given that they're both pretty well different interpretations of the same concept, not particularly. Levels in one class alone should be more than sufficient to get your Knight for the Forces of Evil.

But that doesn't mean it can't be done. Particularly when looking for certain mechanical quirks.

Ponce
2008-04-25, 05:18 PM
Given that they're both pretty well different interpretations of the same concept, not particularly. Levels in one class alone should be more than sufficient to get your Knight for the Forces of Evil.

But that doesn't mean it can't be done. Particularly when looking for certain mechanical quirks.

True enough. Blackguard has some sort of pact flavour associated with it. I guess I would be fine with players taking both as a DM, but as a player I wouldn't do it.

At any rate, this is the build I've pulled together so far. Hexblade is unfortunately largely class level dependent, so mixing it with Bard can be difficult.

Paladin of Tyranny 4 / Hexblade 7 / Bard 9

H: Bind Vestige
1: Bind Vestige, Improved
3: Power Attack
6: Frightful Presence
9: Doomspeak
12: Improved Critical (Scimitar/Falchion)
15: Battle Curse
18: Divine Might

B: Spell Penetration (Greater)

Also, there is a +3 weapon enchantment that imposes a -4 penalty to saves on a crit. The Hexblade Spell Horrid Sickness makes multiple targets Sickened, which is another stackable -2 to saves.

Bauglir
2008-04-25, 06:25 PM
If your game uses Psionics, the power Primal Fear is a swift-action "make your opponent shaken" power that doesn't allow a save. If you use the Races of Eberron version rather than the Complete Psionic version, which I do because I like to pretend the errata made by the Complete Psionic never happened.

The_Snark
2008-04-26, 01:17 AM
Not to mention that Races of Eberron is more recent than Complete Psionic, and so its version is in fact the correct one. I think; I've never been clear on the rules there.

I'll add to be very careful of the vestiges. Focalor (3rd-level vestige, can be bound with 3 levels of binder and Improved Binding or 5 levels of binder) has a 5-ft aura, and Chupoclops (6th-level, need 10 levels and the feat or 12 levels) has a 10-foot aura, but both of them affect all creatures except you, which means you had better not stand close to allies. You can turn them on and off, but either one's a standard action.

The Haunting Melody feat from Heroes of Horror is another bard effect that can render enemies shaken, although I don't know how well it would interact with Inspire Awe. Worth looking into, maybe.

Gralamin
2008-04-26, 01:21 AM
Not to mention that Races of Eberron is more recent than Complete Psionic, and so its version is in fact the correct one. I think; I've never been clear on the rules there.

I'll add to be very careful of the vestiges. Focalor (3rd-level vestige, can be bound with 3 levels of binder and Improved Binding or 5 levels of binder) has a 5-ft aura, and Chupoclops (6th-level, need 10 levels and the feat or 12 levels) has a 10-foot aura, but both of them affect all creatures except you, which means you had better not stand close to allies. You can turn them on and off, but either one's a standard action.

The Haunting Melody feat from Heroes of Horror is another bard effect that can render enemies shaken, although I don't know how well it would interact with Inspire Awe. Worth looking into, maybe.

Races of Eberron is older then Complete Psionic.

drengnikrafe
2008-04-26, 01:31 AM
We're looking for a way to undercut the enemy's ability to make saving throws effectively, right?
Why not get 3 wands of sleep, put them into one of those items that fires off 3 wands simultaniously, and have a very good chance of putting something to sleep. Now, you cast dream on it, and if I remember the context of that spell right, they automatically fail all their saving throws while under a dream.
I mean, it's not that bad an idea...

The_Snark
2008-04-26, 01:39 AM
Races of Eberron is older then Complete Psionic.

Is it really? Huh. I guess I'm used to thinking of Eberron as recent. Back to "ignore", then!

Ponce
2008-04-26, 02:21 AM
We're looking for a way to undercut the enemy's ability to make saving throws effectively, right?
Why not get 3 wands of sleep, put them into one of those items that fires off 3 wands simultaniously, and have a very good chance of putting something to sleep. Now, you cast dream on it, and if I remember the context of that spell right, they automatically fail all their saving throws while under a dream.
I mean, it's not that bad an idea...

The spell seems to say that the caster, not the target, is the one who automatically fails all saving throws.

The_Snark, your warning about the vestiges is well noted. Fortunately, the build I have in mind is restricted to Focalor, so it shouldn't be too difficult to keep allies at a safe distance.

Haunting Melody doesn't seem to have any sort of limitation, so it should stack with other sources of fear.

Dannoth
2008-04-26, 10:58 AM
Limiting character .....

Ponce
2008-04-26, 12:29 PM
Limiting character .....

Maybe. You could always drop the bard levels and rearrange the feats to be more combat worthy.