PDA

View Full Version : How do you choose?



Admiral Squish
2008-04-25, 03:47 PM
Okay, I admit it, I've never played a wizard. I'm still largely a newb at this, and I was waiting to learn more before I started a caster. I've played a warlock before, though that's not the same experience. Now, the big thing that always confused me is that you have four spells of each level, each day, at the higher levels. You pick them at the start of the day, when you still have no idea what you're going to do that day. How do you pick what spells to prepare from your infinite library of potential?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-25, 03:50 PM
Very few people actually have no idea what they're going to be doing during the day.

So, uh, I guess your premise is wrong, and it is indeed possible to plan ahead. In fact, the ability to plan ahead with the help of divinations is part of the whole "wizards are incredibly powerful and adaptable" thing.

Townopolis
2008-04-25, 03:57 PM
Divinations. Ask questions, get answers, plan accordingly.

:mitd: You are about to enter the tower of the lich Karkovol tomorrow!
:vaarsuvius: Ok... dispel magic... disrupt undead... maybe a locate object for those pesky phylacteries...

The Rose Dragon
2008-04-25, 03:58 PM
OK, here's the deal.

Get one good Will Save controlling spell.
Get one good Fort Save controlling spell.
Get one good Reflex Save controlling spell.
Get one good no Save controlling spell for emergencies.
Get one Orb spell for damage dealing.
Get flight, invisibility and wind wall.
???
Profit.

Celerity, Foresight and Shapechange are also recommended.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-25, 03:59 PM
Very few people actually have no idea what they're going to be doing during the day.

So, uh, I guess your premise is wrong, and it is indeed possible to plan ahead. In fact, the ability to plan ahead with the help of divinations is part of the whole "wizards are incredibly powerful and adaptable" thing.

Looking through the entire divination school, I don't see anything that allows you see the future short of foresight. Lots of things to see the present, which isn't often very useful in six hours. And you can't scry every inch of the road ahead, you don't have that many spell slots. Granted, you can check out he BBEG's layer ahead of time, but that's no good if he's sending agents out to catch you on the road.

Fixer
2008-04-25, 03:59 PM
One thing you can take advantage of is being able to prepare spell slots without actually memorizing a spell within them. (Pg 178, bottom left paragraph under Spell Selection and Preparation)

In this fashion, you can leave one or more spell slots 'open' and memorize an important spell when you need it. This leaves you to memorize combat spells in the other slots.

Telonius
2008-04-25, 04:01 PM
Well, there are usually some hints of the sort of thing you'll be encountering that day. If you're poking around the south pole, unless you have a really weird DM you're not going to meet any fire elementals.

There are usually a few spells that you can prepare that are multi-purpose - good in many different situations. If you really have no idea what you'll be facing, prepare these. Things like Magic Missile and Mage Armor work practically all the time against practically any foe. Feather Fall is another good one to have prepared - you never know when you're going to get thrown out a window. Fly and Invisibility when you're high enough level to get them, for similar reasons.

General rules: spells with no saving throws are awesome. Save-or-suck (like Sleep) are great. Spells that deal damage to the foe directly usually aren't that great. While blowing stuff up with fireballs can be satisfying, that's not where the Wizard's real strength lies. Wizard is a tactician. He manipulates the battlefield to his advantage. Spells that hinder movement, cause status ailments, dispel others' magic, and prevent others from attacking you are the sorts of spells the savvy wizard prepares often.

skywalker
2008-04-25, 04:03 PM
Scrolls, wands, rods, staves, potions, and other (semi)disposable items are also very helpful. Particularly scrolls, cuz you can pretend you scribed them yourself, and thus don't have to pay as much.

ManBearPig
2008-04-25, 04:05 PM
Take a peek at the DM's notes while he's not looking.

Seriously though, as it has been stated before, there are a few spells that work well in almost any situation. I rarely play mages (just not my cup of tea) but when I do, I usually pick a few spells to use consistently then a few other spells that I think might come in handy in that day. Usually I guess wrong... but that's what I do.

Chronos
2008-04-25, 04:07 PM
Looking through the entire divination school, I don't see anything that allows you see the future short of foresight. Lots of things to see the present, which isn't often very useful in six hours. And you can't scry every inch of the road ahead, you don't have that many spell slots.Well, at high levels, you're not going to even have a road ahead: You'll just teleport wherever you're going. And the most dangerous things you'll encounter will probably be the things in the dungeon/tower/fortress/whatever you're going to, so you can just scry on the dungeon/tower/fortress/whatever and see what sort of challenges are there. Anything you meet outside of the dungeon will be either random encounters that you should be able to deal with using your general-purpose spells, or advance scouting parties or the like from the dungeon, which are probably mostly the same sort of thing that's in the dungeon.

Miles Invictus
2008-04-25, 04:08 PM
Pick spells that can be used in a variety of situations. Grease, Spider Climb, Fly, etc.

The Rose Dragon
2008-04-25, 04:11 PM
Scrolls and wands are also very helpful. Particularly scrolls, cuz you can pretend you scribed them yourself, and thus don't have to pay as much.

Edited slightly.

Scrolls and wands are an indispensable part of a wizard's arsenal. And you get Scribe Scroll for free. Wands are better, as they can be used more than once, but they require a feat to craft yourself.

Staves aren't that useful since they come prepackaged so you might be paying extra for a spell you'll never use, and rods don't usually emulate spells. Potions are good, but unless you're a Master Alchemist or some other obscure prestige class, the spell levels are too low to be useful in the long run (except for fly and invisibility, and possibly alter shape if you're an outsider).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 05:20 PM
Also important: You have way more then 4 spells per level every day.

You better have at least +1 from Int on all your levels. Specialization is pretty common. You should really be getting 2-4 slots extra from Int.

So you are actually looking at about 8-9 low level slots, and 5-7 of your higher level slots.

Gorbash
2008-04-25, 06:32 PM
Well, actually it's not WAY more than 4 spell slots per level of the spell, since you can never have 4 spell slots of your highest spell level. Example, my 9th lvl wizard (with 24 int) has:

0 - 4
1st - 6
2nd - 6
3rd - 5
4th - 3
5th - 2

Which is 4.4 per spell level... Not much different than what he said...

My opinion is, even if you don't know what you're facing (even though you should), prepare some defensive buffs, some party buffs, one or two getaway spells, no save spells, etc etc...

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 06:55 PM
Well, actually it's not WAY more than 4 spell slots per level of the spell, since you can never have 4 spell slots of your highest spell level. Example, my 9th lvl wizard (with 24 int) has:

0 - 4
1st - 6
2nd - 6
3rd - 5
4th - 3
5th - 2

Which is 4.4 per spell level... Not much different than what he said...

And my level 9 Specialist Wizard with 26 Int has: 5/7/7/6/5/3 or 5.5 a level.

And at level 10 with 28 Int: 5/8/7/6/6/5 or 6.16 repeating.

Gorbash
2008-04-25, 07:12 PM
Well, yeah, but on average it's less than that. Both mine and your characters are overpowered, but that's another story :smalltongue: Did you craft that HoI +6?

But... Just how can you have 28 int by lvl 10? Even with the assumption that you have base 18, which means by 8th lvl it's gonna be 20, and +6 Headband of Intellect it's 26...? Some non-core race with +2 on int?

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-25, 07:45 PM
Core grey elf, perhaps? Besides that, I'm not sure.

Nohwl
2008-04-25, 08:04 PM
you should have an idea of what you will be required to do that day. for example, if you are in a dungeon, you would want spells that can help you kill things. pick your favorite ones that will help you achieve this goal. you want to have different sets of spells for different areas.

Farmer42
2008-04-25, 08:15 PM
18 int + 2 Grey Elf + 6 HoI + 1 lvl 4 ability boost + 1 lvl 8 Ability boost = 28 Int, and that's without aging the character.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-25, 08:43 PM
Well, yeah, but on average it's less than that. Both mine and your characters are overpowered, but that's another story :smalltongue: Did you craft that HoI +6?

But... Just how can you have 28 int by lvl 10? Even with the assumption that you have base 18, which means by 8th lvl it's gonna be 20, and +6 Headband of Intellect it's 26...? Some non-core race with +2 on int?

No, neither or our characters are overpowered. They are both very very far from overpowered.

No I didn't craft the Headband of Intellect, because a +4 is less then half the wealth of a 9th level character. And a +6 is under half the WBL of a 10th level character.

An 18 (possible racial +2) 4th and 8th into Int, and the appropriate Headband is a basic Duh! every time. That's the assumed level, not overpowered in the least. You should have 5-7 of your lower level slots as soon as they reach the maximum four per level. You should never have less then 2 of your highest,but usually around 3-5. This is th most basic and simple of builds.

FlyMolo
2008-04-26, 12:11 AM
Well, there are usually some hints of the sort of thing you'll be encountering that day. If you're poking around the south pole, unless you have a really weird DM you're not going to meet any fire elementals.


I am a bad DM. I looked at that sentence and immediately came up with a plot idea. A tribe of fire elementals could rule the South Pole. Think about it. They'd be permanent heat sources, valuable beyond measure. Also, you could melt ice with them. Handy for sculpting.

As far as high primary spellcasting stats, I can get 24 at first level without magic items or much difficulty. I think there's one int +4 race with +0 LA, but I might be hallucinating. I'm sure there's a +2, anyway. With +2, it's only 22.

So 18, +2 racial, Spellcasting Prodigy lets you treat it as +2, 22 at first level. 4th and 8th level and a HoI+6 makes 30 int at level 10. Hey presto.

JaxGaret
2008-04-26, 12:19 AM
I am a bad DM. I looked at that sentence and immediately came up with a plot idea. A tribe of fire elementals could rule the South Pole. Think about it. They'd be permanent heat sources, valuable beyond measure. Also, you could melt ice with them. Handy for sculpting.

Fire Elementals at the South Pole? Possible.

Fire Elementals at the South Pole that get the drop on you? Very, very improbable.

Hint: if you see lots of melting ice and pools of water at the South Pole, something very hot is afoot...

Gorbash
2008-04-26, 03:36 AM
No, neither or our characters are overpowered. They are both very very far from overpowered.

Well, they're not overpowered in a sense they're not Incantatrix/MotAO/IotSV/Random-overpowered-class/ but we all know that wizards by themselves are overpowered, so that's what I meant when I said we're overpowered. :smallbiggrin: I'm actually making an effort not to be overpowered, it's too easy.

Rutee
2008-04-26, 03:42 AM
Just to try to forestall the argument, CoV doesn't acknowledge wizards as being overpowered. He's well aware that they're the most powerful base class, no question, but playing and optimizing a wizard is, in his view, exactly as powerful as a PC should be (Similarly, optimizing a Druid or Cleric is what you're /supposed/ to do.) At least, that's the read I've gotten off him.

Gorbash
2008-04-26, 04:16 AM
Well... Non optimized wizard is more powerful than optimized fighter, not to mention an optimized wizard. That's all I'm saying, and that's what everyone and their mother knows by now, what argument are you talking about?

Talic
2008-04-26, 05:52 AM
For spells per day, let's go with the most flexible of specialists. The Focused Specialist (Transmutation). Ban Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy. And yes, Transmutation really IS that flexible.

Assume Starting int 18, +2 from levels, +4 from item, total: 24 int.

Base slots for a level 9 wizard:
4/4/4/3/2/1
Add in Specialist:
4+1/4+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1
Add in Focused Spec:
3+3/3+3/3+3/2+3/1+3/0+3
Add in Int Bonus:
3+3/5+3/5+3/4+3/2+3/1+3

Now, the final list looks like this:
Level 0: 6 spells
Level 1: 8 spells
Level 2: 8 spells
Level 3: 7 spells
Level 4: 5 spells
Level 5: 4 spells

Spells Memorized (all pulled from SRD):

Level 5: Baleful Polymorph, Telekinesis, Overland Flight, Cloudkill
Level 4: Polymorph x2, Stone Shape, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog
Level 3: Blink, Fly, Haste, Slow, Dispel Magic x2, Displacement
Level 2: Fox's Cunning x2, Alter Self, Blur, Knock, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Glitterdust
Level 1: Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Mage Armor x2, Alarm, Shield x2
Level 0: Flavor to taste.

Now, what's that mean? From levels 1-6, an average of 6.4 spells. Without focused specialist, you'll get an average of 5.4 spells per level. In that case, you want to get back either necromancy or enchantment (I prefer necromancy).

You'll also find, as core spells go, that's a very flexible list. Good for boosting allies. Good for taking out troublesome opponents. Lacks a reflex save, but the Tentacles more than make up for that.

Chronos
2008-04-26, 10:57 AM
Hint: if you see lots of melting ice and pools of water at the South Pole, something very hot is afoot...Or something very hot is a whole lotta feet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/remorhaz.htm).

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-26, 11:32 AM
Well... Non optimized wizard is more powerful than optimized fighter, not to mention an optimized wizard. That's all I'm saying, and that's what everyone and their mother knows by now, what argument are you talking about?

The argument that she is attempting to forestall is that of relative power levels.

A Wizard 20 is pretty much my basis for comparison and balance. This means, Druid 20, Cleric X/PrCs Y, and highly optimized other classes are the classes I expect, and a simple Wizard is by no means overpowered. Incatatrix? Maybe. Planar Shepard? Probably. Wizard? No.