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salmonking2
2008-04-25, 05:53 PM
Okay im in highschool and i got this nutty notion that i could maybe teach a gang of nerdy girls i know how to play D&D. I dont have a group cause i moved to San Antonio about a year ago but i think i could teach them how to play. Any tips or sugestions for teaching girls?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 05:55 PM
Teach as you'd teach boys, but don't give 'em playful punches. That is all.

I'd recommend starting with either ToB chars, favored souls, binders, or factotum. Those won't break the game, but they're strong out of the box.

JoshuaZ
2008-04-25, 05:55 PM
Okay im in highschool and i got this nutty notion that i could maybe teach a gang of nerdy girls i know how to play D&D. I dont have a group cause i moved to San Antonio about a year ago but i think i could teach them how to play. Any tips or sugestions for teaching girls?

Yeah. Girls are people too. Teach them just the same way you'd teach anyone else.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-25, 05:56 PM
Just do it exactly the same way you would teach people who possess Y chromosomes. Girls are fundamentally more or less the same as boys and chances are that what works with boys also works with girls, taking the personality of the individuals into account of course. But really individual differences also present among members of each gender is more important than the gender of those you want to teach.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 05:59 PM
And No LARPing. As I said, there's just about no girls who like having to dodge punches.

salmonking2
2008-04-25, 06:01 PM
lol k thanks then guys

Reinboom
2008-04-25, 06:03 PM
And No LARPing. As I said, there's just about no girls who like having to dodge punches.

I think that is not gender linked, but how they were raised as well...
Otherwise, all but one of my sisters is the exception, so... there's 6 exceptions.
Of course, they always are.

Backing up, to use them as a comparison, however. The one that doesn't like being hit playfully at all is also my only sibling that plays D&D.. hm..


Personally, I don't recommend punching anybody. They secretly might not like it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 06:05 PM
What I mean is, most boys do trade joke punches with friends, and it is a semi-common way of showing trust. Girls mostly don't, and don't react well to that, usually, because, I believe, they take it as a REAL attack.

Starsinger
2008-04-25, 06:08 PM
Personally, I don't recommend punching anybody. They secretly might not like it.
And of course other times they might secretly like it... and that's a whole different can of worms

Collin152
2008-04-25, 06:09 PM
What I mean is, most boys do trade joke punches with friends, and it is a semi-common way of showing trust. Girls mostly don't, and don't react well to that, usually, because, I believe, they take it as a REAL attack.

Utter posh.
I hate it when people do that to me- it hurts!

Frosty
2008-04-25, 06:11 PM
My friends and I do punches on each other, but light punches that don't really hurt.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 06:12 PM
That's part of the whole idea. Yeah, you shouldn't do that to a friend, but I forgive you anyway 'cause you're my buddy.

Ain't it just great when you ramble off?

Collin152
2008-04-25, 06:31 PM
My friends and I do punches on each other, but light punches that don't really hurt.

I'm known to get bruises from a brush.
A "light punch" will hurt me.

Crow
2008-04-25, 06:40 PM
Just keep it simple. I'd hold off on ToB and all that other stuff. Make learning the basic concepts of the game as painless as possible and then move on to bigger things.

EvilElitest
2008-04-25, 06:53 PM
girls don't play D&d, its in the rules
from
EE

Bag_of_Holding
2008-04-25, 06:57 PM
girls don't play D&d, its in the rules
from
EE

RAW FTW, eh? :smallamused:

Townopolis
2008-04-25, 07:03 PM
start them all off with gestalt artificer//wizards it's a fairly simple INT synergy combination and offers very good power potential not to mention shows how versatile D&D characters can be. I'd also recommend starting at higher levels, to show them the meat of D&D, it's a game about heroes, after all. Maybe try artificer//wizard/incantatrix so that you can go through the concept of prestige classes at the same time.

-or-

Start off with some basic stuff: maybe limit the selection to basic fighters and spontaneous casters, I find sorcerers MUCH easier to handle than wizards, and we're talking about newbies so...

Fighter, paladin, favored soul, sorcerer, rogue, barbarian, monk, bard, beguiler, dragon shaman, knight, warlock, and duskblade all spring to mind as easier. You can walk them through the character creation process if you need to, but remember to let them do what they want to do, no "you must take this ubercharger build" for the fighter player.

Start at level 2 or 3. Level 1 is a pain because of fatality and low levels are simpler.

Once in session, focus on roleplay to start and get them comfortable with the basic RPG concept, then lead them towards an encounter.

explain non-rules rules before hand. Things like "if no one remembers a rule, I'll adjudicate something and we'll look it up later."

Be very, very patient.

If teaching boys, all the above ideas apply.

[Edit]: If using mood music, do not use Barry White.

shadow_archmagi
2008-04-25, 07:04 PM
Then why is everything in the SRD "she"???

Revanmal
2008-04-25, 07:09 PM
Then why is everything in the SRD "she"???

To promote equality I guess.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-25, 07:11 PM
I'd suggest a level 3 game, low magic.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-25, 07:19 PM
Yeah. Girls are people too. Teach them just the same way you'd teach anyone else.

Provided, of course, that your usual methods of teaching involve neither dirty jokes nor "shirts vs skins."

Rutee
2008-04-25, 07:20 PM
To promote equality I guess.

I always thought it was because women look cooler when doing the same things :smallyuk:

To answer the OP's question, you must first /capture/ the female specimens in question. I won't go into that, that's your problem. From there, look into pavlovian conditioning, I'd say. Makes it very quick. And don't spare the whip.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 07:23 PM
Use sleeping darts. Avoid Catgirls. Don't show 'em any pics of females if they're radical feminists. Make sure roleplay more than you rollplay.

Also, get someone to fix me my sarcas-o-meter. It's broke down.

Dervag
2008-04-25, 07:30 PM
Okay im in highschool and i got this nutty notion that i could maybe teach a gang of nerdy girls i know how to play D&D. I dont have a group cause i moved to San Antonio about a year ago but i think i could teach them how to play. Any tips or sugestions for teaching girls?I assume the girls have math proficiency at the middle school level (a prerequisite for being nerdy and in high school), have memories approximately equal to your own, and are flexible enough to handle the concept of "roleplaying."

If they do not, then it does not matter if they are male or female, they will be unable to learn and play the game.

If they do, then it does not matter if they are male or female. You need no special techniques. There is nothing about D&D which makes it harder or easier for members of one sex to learn than the other.

All you have to do is whatever you normally do to avoid looking like an ass to girls. Treating them like they need special teaching techniques to learn the game comes to mind as something NOT to do.

Note: if you do not normally avoid looking like an ass to girls, you have a problem. But the problem isn't one of D&D. You'd have most of the same problem trying to teach them anything. Or learn anything from them. Or just interact with them without trying to teach or learn anything.

Kizara
2008-04-25, 08:17 PM
I always thought it was because women look cooler when doing the same things :smallyuk:

To answer the OP's question, you must first /capture/ the female specimens in question. I won't go into that, that's your problem. From there, look into pavlovian conditioning, I'd say. Makes it very quick. And don't spare the whip.

I have never agreed with anything you have posted as much as this.

I wholeheartily second both paragraphs. :smallamused:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 08:19 PM
Dunno. As much as I enjoy Marillion, not everybody likes it.

Tough_Tonka
2008-04-25, 08:50 PM
I think under no condition should you show these girls character art from your D&D books that remotely arouses you.

On a side note:
When I teach the game to anyone I tend to describe the rules in a manner even an idiot would get. Unfortunately because of my teaching method the few girl players I've taught tend to think I'm treating them this way cause they're girls. Try to be more respectful to girl players I guess; cause these girls probably have their own stereo-types for how they are going to be treated by male players and DMs. Oh and don't show them elves before any other races.

Glawackus
2008-04-25, 09:11 PM
FWIW: I had a game recently with 3 newbie players: a really nerdy guy, a fairly nerdy guy, and a "closet nerd" girl.

Guess which one picked up the game the fastest. :smallwink:

Hawriel
2008-04-25, 09:13 PM
yes as stated already girls are peaple to. And are smart enough to vote at 18!!! No locker room humor.

This is for teaching any one the game.
Some one said use TOB. DO not thats a bad idea. Stay with the three core books. first level for afew small intro adventures. After one or two let them level. Keep it low magic. If you keep it low magic then magic is cool and misterios. Let them injoy the fun of a back of tricks.

Also ive seen a book written by a women about girls in gaming at borders. I dont recal the title. Its white and pink with a classy looking uptown girl on the cover tossing a fire ball at a group of idiot boys. read it. and for fun show it to them. You most likly will find this near the gaming books in the book store.

AtomicKitKat
2008-04-25, 09:13 PM
My friends and I do punches on each other, but light punches that don't really hurt.

Ugh. Memories of school in my teens. Used to punch each other in the biceps as hard as possible(which sucked for those of us whose muscular development was on the opposite end of puberty from the "other stuff"), try to crush each other's hands in handshakes, and so on. Utterly stupid rituals.:smallfurious:

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 09:19 PM
...

Girls can play DnD?
:smallbiggrin:

Well, first of all, don't let them play elven bards with randomly generated vorpal rapiers. Trust me on this one.
Second, treat 'em like any other newbie, that is to say, mock there every mistake and rub in the fact that you know all about the game and they know nothing! Er... ignore that last bit.

When teaching ANY new player (male or female), remember to be patient. Just because you now understand the game backwards and forwards doesn't mean that the rules should make a bit of sense to someone who's never played. They'll ask questions; seemingly dumb ones. Repeatedly. And if you keep your cool and keep answering the questions, they'll eventually learn them.

Listen to the (non-sarcastic) advice about classes above. Keep it to simple melee classes and spontaneous spellcasters. Warlocks are pretty easy to learn, and the favored soul is a good spontaneous alternative to the cleric for learners.

Help them make their characters correctly to avoid future confusion, but try not to influence their decisions as far as what kind of characters they want to play.

If they exhibit some of the traits that might be thought of as... poor to more experienced players, such as switching characters every session or whatever else, you can probably forgive it for now. They're still learning and getting a feel for what they like in a character.

Start the storyline off simple or perhaps don't have a story line at all. Do give them a chance to roleplay before rolling dice so that they can get used to it. After they've gotten comfortable being in character, give them some simple skill checks to get used to rolling dice. THEN move on to a nice easy dungeon crawl that doesn't tax their knowledge of the game.

Once they've gotten used to the game, you can complicate or restart the story line or the complexity of the dungeon crawls.

Hmm... I think my advice is sound... but do listen to your instincts when you're actually teaching them (er... your gaming instincts that is.)

Anyone care to double check my advice?

Edit: oh, and enjoy the continued beratings about girls being the same as boys. I'm sure it was just a poor choice of words, but I'm sure you'll be less likely to have a group to play with if you treat girls too differently from guys.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 09:23 PM
yes as stated already girls are peaple to. And are smart enough to vote at 18!!! No locker room humor.

This is for teaching any one the game.
Some one said use TOB. DO not thats a bad idea. Stay with the three core books. first level for afew small intro adventures. After one or two let them level. Keep it low magic. If you keep it low magic then magic is cool and misterios. Let them injoy the fun of a back of tricks.

Also ive seen a book written by a women about girls in gaming at borders. I dont recal the title. Its white and pink with a classy looking uptown girl on the cover tossing a fire ball at a group of idiot boys. read it. and for fun show it to them. You most likly will find this near the gaming books in the book store.


That was me.

As a matter of fact, I suggested it precisely because Core is not only the most broken set, it makes fighters utterly useless, and if ANY of the girls has a keen optimizing grasp, the game's going downhill.

For you see, THAT is the reason I suggested not only ToB, but other books. I suggested: ToB, ToM, Dungeonscape, and whatever the book the favored soul was in.

Why? Simple. Those four books are extremely balanced, and allow you to play a semi-normal party with all the common roles filled...

But ah, the classes are powerful and easy to bookkeep from the start. Wow, feel much better, havin' everyone at a similar power level, donnae it? Certainly better than having any potential optimizer complaining because the cleric and Wizard are b0rking the fighter and rogue (Or actually DOING that, if unintentionally).

People usually aren't Rule-stupid. It's okay to begin with varied characters, instead of the b0rked classic set.

And considering the tossing of my bookset came from someone who is suggesting Confessions of a Part Time Sorceress, which is a giggle-at-it-or-burn-it, pardon me if I do not hold your opinion in high regard.

sikyon
2008-04-25, 09:33 PM
If they don't play magic or any other optimization games,

Lean towards Role Playing instead of roll playing. Don't be a stickler for RAW, ect. Don't expect them to optimize heavily, make sure it's captivating from a storytelling perspective so they'll want to come back to it.

Starsinger
2008-04-25, 09:35 PM
...

Girls can play DnD?
:smallbiggrin:


Don't be preposterous! Next you'll say something ridiculous like that girls are just like anyone else. :smalltongue:


Another good tip for teaching someone how to play D&D? Get used to saying "Well you can't." I know when I was first learning D&D I wanted to do a few things that, by D&D rules, you cannot really do... like heal someone from far away.

Wooter
2008-04-25, 09:39 PM
...
vorpal rapiers.

Wait, what?

Kilbia
2008-04-25, 09:42 PM
For the most part, I agree with the notion that you needn't go too far out of your way to teach girls compared to teaching boys.

However, I will share one piece of advice I actually picked up from my LARPing days about teaching women how to fight (yes, girls fight, and at least where I'm from they'll kick your ass and not think twice about it!):

Try to avoid phrases like "it's simple" or "it's easy". When you're teaching a boy a new technique, and he's struggling to master it, and you say "don't worry, this is simple", the boy will think "okay, so a little more practice and I'll have it". When you're teaching a girl a new technique, and she's struggling to master it, and you say "don't worry, this is simple", the girl will think "I'm stupid because this is apparently really simple but I don't have it figured out yet". You've said the same thing, but they've heard it differently.

Also, some of my thoughts: If there's even a remote chance that you and your friends will switch over to 4th edition, consider waiting until you've picked up those books before introducing your lady-friends to the game. It would be very frustrating to have just gotten a handle on the rules and then be told you're playing by new rules.

While some of your lady-friends might be the kind to build a character for the sole purpose of getting a feat or class ability they happened across in the book and thought was cool (which is precisely what I did with my current low-level fighter - Improved Bull Rush and Improved Overrun!), I think they'd be more inclined to generating a character by starting with a concept - they want to be the big brawny Valkyrie, they want to be Legolas's little sister, whatever. Ask them what sort of role they want to fill in the party and go from there - and if it means you end up without a wizard or a rogue, well then I guess you'll need to tweak your campaign to accommodate that!

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 09:42 PM
I THINK that was a metaphor.

'Ware if they start playing mascara laden elf bards.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 09:48 PM
Wait, what?

A female player who hasn't been able to play for a bit started learning to play with an elven bard. We rolled for random items at character creation and she got a vorpal rapier (wait... is that possible? *shrug*). Unfortunately, my group was still learning how to teach, and the bard's lack of simplicity made it more difficult than it otherwise could have been. She replaced the bard with a new character some time later.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 09:51 PM
Actually, at level one, that is more impossible than having a serious FATAL game. You simply CANNOT get enough money, fullstop.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 09:55 PM
Well, we're a highschool group, and we've gotten a much better grasp of the rules since then. We were (and to a lesser extent, still are) in that phase where we end up changing characters after a few sessions, though we've gotten much better about that and other things since the elven bard thing...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 10:00 PM
'Slong as none of you cast Magic Missile at the darkness, no problem.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 10:00 PM
Nah, no one ever gets magic missile. Although fire ball has sent teh darkness running on more than one occassion...

EvilElitest
2008-04-25, 10:01 PM
RAW FTW, eh? :smallamused:

look it up, i assure you your'll find it
from
EE

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-25, 10:02 PM
:roy: Oh, the humanity.

Vella_Malachite
2008-04-25, 10:11 PM
Just exactly the same as the way the group of guys I know taught me to play DnD. Explain everything in detail when they ask a question, tell them the rules as you go along, be a little lenient on rules, try not to allow them game-breaking abilities first up, let them get to know the different races and classes, and above all, let them choose! Don't say 'you'd better be a fighter' or 'a bard would be good with the rest of the party' unless they ask you to make those suggestions. Probably not even then. Just let them be what they like and do what they want (within reason), so that you can continue the game with everyone happy and the least amount of bother.

I remember one of my first campaigns (it was a weird campaign), I bought 100 salted herrings at the beginning because they had negligible weight and they only cost 1cp each.:smallbiggrin:
Another one, I played a dryad who, instead of needing to stay near her tree, became her tree, so I turned into a tree in the middle of a tavern in a bucket of mulch to fulfil my daily 8 hours as a tree.

Just be flexible and don't stress. They will get it just as fast as boys.

And as for these chauvanists saying girls can't play DnD...
Ignore them. They're not worth the sand on my shoes:smallwink:.

...kidding!:smallredface:

monty
2008-04-25, 10:14 PM
Send them up against a gazebo and see what they do.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/you-have-angered-the-gazebo.thumbnail.jpg

AstaraelSCO
2008-04-25, 10:19 PM
Step1, don't mention tentacles at all...
Step2, as aforementoned, girls don't play DnD, so those are in fact *traps*.
Step3, apply -4str, -4con +4cha to all their chars.

Wooter
2008-04-25, 10:39 PM
My eyes just focused in on the "vorpal rapier" part. I keep trying to figure out how that works. Do you stab thier head off?

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 10:53 PM
Perhaps they stab so quickly and sharply that they sever the bone from itself and the air around the blade becomes a second weapon that removes teh flesh. *shrug* it's probably one of those things we all overlooked on accident.

Collin152
2008-04-25, 10:54 PM
My eyes just focused in on the "vorpal rapier" part. I keep trying to figure out how that works. Do you stab thier head off?

You stab the base of their neck.
The magic does the rest.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-25, 10:57 PM
You stab the base of their neck.
The magic does the rest.

Magic is wonderful for inexplicable explanations isn't it.

Collin152
2008-04-25, 10:59 PM
Magic is wonderful for inexplicable explanations isn't it.

Believe it or not (I'm walkin on air!) I use magic as the answer to any question I can't answer off the top of my head.

monty
2008-04-25, 11:01 PM
Believe it or not (I'm walkin on air!) I use magic as the answer to any question I can't answer off the top of my head.

Remember, if you can't explain something:

"A wizard did it."

Simplest explanation for absolutely everything. Except for the origin of magic. We all hate those paradoxes.

Collin152
2008-04-25, 11:04 PM
Remember, if you can't explain something:

"A wizard did it."

Simplest explanation for absolutely everything. Except for the origin of magic. We all hate those paradoxes.

It's a chicken or egg thing.
But yes, there is magic bcause a wizard did it.

Now, how did we first get wizards?

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-25, 11:12 PM
Basically, there aren't that many differences. It's just that they're likely to react a bit differently to bad teaching methods.

It depends on the individual in question.

Don't be a jerk, go with your best educated guess. (Unless your educated guess is to be a jerk :P)

Jayngfet
2008-04-25, 11:20 PM
silly fool, there are no girl gamers, it's like the internet

consequently if you happen to see any girl gamers stop eating those weird mushrooms and get over yourself, she'll have a non dwarf beard when you look again.

Dode
2008-04-25, 11:37 PM
DODE'S GUIDE TO INTRODUCING WOMEN TO D&D

1: Women aren't as smart as men when it comes to mathematics, so when explaining mechanics and other man-terms to the female, be sure to talk very slowly and enunciate clearly. Try to avoid big words, shortening it down to more understandable terms. For example, call an attack of opportunity a "whoopsie move", or a Ray of Enervation a "death ray".

2: Inculcate fondness towards the game. Now, we all know D&D is a man's game so there needs to be some modifications here and there to make the experience more palatable for a woman's gaming needs. Perhaps get her some pink dice to make her rolls with (with glitter too, if possible) and allow a homebrew "puppy" or "kitten" familiar for her to use. Be sure to add extra description to the magical items you find, as women are very fashion conscious (you may need to do some research for this one); a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting for example could be described as "A well-woven black turtleneck with turquoise highlights" and a Bag of Holding could be described as "A Prada Bag of Holding".

3: For women, deciding character classes is like deciding which shoes she's going to wear: it doesn't really matter what she chooses and it takes forever. With that in mind, be sure to roll up some pregenerated characters that she will most likely enjoy. Examples include a Tiefling bardess or, Aasimar paladin, or lesbian Elven monk grappler build.

4: When DMing a game where women are present, be aware that what the woman lacks in mathematic ability, she more then makes up in social and sexual aptitude. When things start going not her way in-game, she may try to ply her gender via playful flirting or pouting in order to influence you, the DM, to win her favor through in game rewards. Now I don't need to tell you that that behavior is completely unacceptable, so you must steel yourself against these unwanted approaches in order to remain impartial. If things become a bit too heated, Dode's advice is to have a time-out, lock yourself in the bathroom and "relieve" yourself of the undesired tension.

With all that in mind, I think you are ready to instruct a woman on how to play D&D. Good luck.

huttj509
2008-04-26, 01:15 AM
Of the girls I have gamed with:

One can outright shut me down and out-optimize me, she's the one who put a DnD flyer up in the dorm to set up a group. She and her husband set out to figure out how to break any game they start playing...well, not set out, it just happens. Oh, they don't want to ruin it for others, they just want to break the system because they can, and seeing the DM cry when he realizes what you just did with all the pieces he gave you is fun. "I shoot the guard, I get a deadly +++++++ for damage, I assume he's dead (shadowrun 1 version ago)?"

One grew up playing DnD with her dad, sister, and brother (and she has wonderful taste in men, though I'm just a little biased on that).

One likes drawing sketches of funny parts from the gaming session, we have a visual journal of some of our in jokes (tip, when describing your character, be descriptive, otherwise you shall be forever known as stick man spiky guy).

And one...I distract with shiny dice when she gets bored, and no, she's not 6 (admittedly, her first campaign was with 1 DM and 7 PCs...boredom happened easily, but so did awesomeness, Rappan Athuk (sp) can do that).

So....basically just be up front on what you expect the campaign to be like (kick in the door, socialpalooza, etc.), be prepared to go over rules, and make sure the players are comfortable with asking questions when they have them.

Dervag
2008-04-26, 01:31 AM
Don't be preposterous! Next you'll say something ridiculous like that girls are just like anyone else. :smalltongue: Vive le petit difference!


DODE'S GUIDE TO INTRODUCING WOMEN TO D&D

1: Women aren't as smart as men when it comes to mathematics, so when explaining mechanics and other man-terms to the female, be sure to talk very slowly and enunciate clearly. Try to avoid big words, shortening it down to more understandable terms. For example, call an attack of opportunity a "whoopsie move", or a Ray of Enervation a "death ray".

2: Inculcate fondness towards the game. Now, we all know D&D is a man's game so there needs to be some modifications here and there to make the experience more palatable for a woman's gaming needs. Perhaps get her some pink dice to make her rolls with (with glitter too, if possible) and allow a homebrew "puppy" or "kitten" familiar for her to use. Be sure to add extra description to the magical items you find, as women are very fashion conscious (you may need to do some research for this one); a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting for example could be described as "A well-woven black turtleneck with turquoise highlights" and a Bag of Holding could be described as "A Prada Bag of Holding".

3: For women, deciding character classes is like deciding which shoes she's going to wear: it doesn't really matter what she chooses and it takes forever. With that in mind, be sure to roll up some pregenerated characters that she will most likely enjoy. Examples include a Tiefling bardess or, Aasimar paladin, or lesbian Elven monk grappler build.

4: When DMing a game where women are present, be aware that what the woman lacks in mathematic ability, she more then makes up in social and sexual aptitude. When things start going not her way in-game, she may try to ply her gender via playful flirting or pouting in order to influence you, the DM, to win her favor through in game rewards. Now I don't need to tell you that that behavior is completely unacceptable, so you must steel yourself against these unwanted approaches in order to remain impartial. If things become a bit too heated, Dode's advice is to have a time-out, lock yourself in the bathroom and "relieve" yourself of the undesired tension.

With all that in mind, I think you are ready to instruct a woman on how to play D&D. Good luck.Are you trying to make sure this poor fellow is considered toxic and to be avoided at all costs by women until he turns 25?

Rutee
2008-04-26, 01:33 AM
Are you trying to make sure this poor fellow is considered toxic and to be avoided at all costs by women until he turns 25?

I figured we were playing the "Take refuge in audacity" game with our sarcasm today :smallbiggrin:

skywalker
2008-04-26, 02:03 AM
Utter posh.
I hate it when people do that to me- it hurts!
Remember this the next time your little box of options comes up and you're about to click "mindrape." Remember that some of us have soft minds, as you have soft skin.


Just exactly the same as the way the group of guys I know taught me to play DnD. Explain everything in detail when they ask a question, tell them the rules as you go along, be a little lenient on rules, try not to allow them game-breaking abilities first up, let them get to know the different races and classes, and above all, let them choose! Don't say 'you'd better be a fighter' or 'a bard would be good with the rest of the party' unless they ask you to make those suggestions. Probably not even then. Just let them be what they like and do what they want (within reason), so that you can continue the game with everyone happy and the least amount of bother.

I remember one of my first campaigns (it was a weird campaign), I bought 100 salted herrings at the beginning because they had negligible weight and they only cost 1cp each.
Another one, I played a dryad who, instead of needing to stay near her tree, became her tree, so I turned into a tree in the middle of a tavern in a bucket of mulch to fulfil my daily 8 hours as a tree.

This is very, very true advice. I remember when my ex and I were walking thru Borders and I kinda sheepishly walked into the D&D section as a joke. She sat down and said "Teach me. What's that cool thing you were playing the other night." So I pulled out the PHB 2, opened it to Duskblade, and started explaining. She said "That sounds cool, I'll be one of those," and lo, a gamer was bored. Note that she did not take kindly to being told she might do better as a different class. My point here is, I agree with Azerian, give the girls(indeed, anyone you start in D&D) lots of interesting options.

I also find that girls are much more likely to buy things like salted herrings. Or things involving acid. Girls seem to love acid. I dunno.

Finally, to those saying "girls are the same, treat them no different!" I would say that this is not quite true. While I'm all for treating everyone equally, girls are socialized differently from boys and do have different patterns of behavior and interaction(see the punching discussion), and it likely will be more of a challenge introducing them to something that is a more "male" hobby. Not that I'm trying to discourage, just trying to give some scientific viewpoint(I also took two sociology courses this semester).

GrassyGnoll
2008-04-26, 02:27 AM
Chest bumps take on a whole new dimension. Get spell mechanics out of the way first so her first round in combat does not necessitate cracking open the books. Prepare for more sincere roleplaying, because unlike others at the table she doesn't only have "smashy feelings". Also, expect giggles over the picture of the rogue/ninja/spy wearing high heels.

Doesn't it seem every first time girl goes for the caster classes? Maybe it's because they're more comfortable in a dress...

Rutee
2008-04-26, 02:29 AM
Doesn't it seem every first time girl goes for the caster classes? Maybe it's because they're more comfortable in a dress...

My first DnD character was a Monk. Still in a big long flowy dress :smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-04-26, 02:46 AM
My first DnD character was a Monk. Still in a big long flowy dress :smalltongue:

Did she survive long? :smallredface:

InaVegt
2008-04-26, 02:51 AM
My first character was a sorcerer, specializing in save or suck. (My DM advised me to go DD, I was stubborn, I later found out I was right) I didn't care much whether to play a wiz or a sorc, as they both were 'Tovenaar', I just wanted to play one of those. My DM advised sorcerer as newb friendly.

Allis
2008-04-26, 06:52 AM
Don't simplify That's a bad habit of loads of D&ding guys I know. Don't exclude classes, don't pull punches. Do tell them you expect them to read the darn books, and if they whish to be casters, expect them to know their spells. I think it's better to tell them what's involved with playing certain classes, and make them live up to it once they've chosen it anyway.

It's true that some girls tend to be less heavy on the game mechanics. But often that is partly due to the fact guys love to take that out of the girls hands. "what do you want to do? Cast magic missile? Here, throw these dice. You do 4 damage, very good!" If you keep that up, she'll never learn. The first time I played, I had to pry away my charactersheet from the guy sitting next to me. He was treating it as another of his characters...

Oh, and tell a girl she should not be a caster because the fighter is "simpler", and she will insist on a sorcerer.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-26, 06:58 AM
The first time I played, I had to pry away my charactersheet from the guy sitting next to me. He was treating it as another of his characters...


I have seen this crap all the time and it has never failed to astound me.

StoryKeeper
2008-04-26, 07:07 AM
He was treating it as another of his characters...



All your sheets are belong to us!

Dannoth
2008-04-26, 11:02 AM
Pay more attention to detail as a DM.

A guy wants to see the monster so he can bash it's head in.
A girl is more likely to care how the monster got there .... what it is doing there.

Allow more time for banter and expect less time to be spent analyzing the advantages of positioning for flanking/cover etc.

It's more about enjoying the game than Victory and challange.

Dervag
2008-04-26, 12:08 PM
Finally, to those saying "girls are the same, treat them no different!" I would say that this is not quite true. While I'm all for treating everyone equally, girls are socialized differently from boys and do have different patterns of behavior and interaction(see the punching discussion), and it likely will be more of a challenge introducing them to something that is a more "male" hobby. Not that I'm trying to discourage, just trying to give some scientific viewpoint(I also took two sociology courses this semester).It's not that they're the same, it's that the things you need to know in order to communicate with them aren't a special list of "things to know while teaching a girl D&D." They're more of a general list of "how not to look like a fool in front of women."

Miraqariftsky
2008-04-26, 12:22 PM
Um, hey, why not just start them off with the good ol' classic Core Classes?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-26, 12:34 PM
Um, hey, why not just start them off with the good ol' classic Core Classes?

Because the core classes are NOT "Good ol'". They're horribly unbalanced, have a pathetic number of ineffectual options for meleers, and it takes ONE natural optimizer for them to go downhill.

Why do you think I keep suggesting Factotum, ToB, Binders, and Favored Souls? All of those classes have plenty options available to them, and they're pretty balanced against each other.

Allis
2008-04-26, 01:02 PM
Pay more attention to detail as a DM.

A guy wants to see the monster so he can bash it's head in.
A girl is more likely to care how the monster got there .... what it is doing there.

Allow more time for banter and expect less time to be spent analyzing the advantages of positioning for flanking/cover etc.

It's more about enjoying the game than Victory and challange.

while I do want to know how the monster got there, and preferrably also know what it's doing there, I mostly want the oppertunity to bash his head(s) in. In my game at the moment I am experiencing severe frustration due to the lack of bashable skulls. It's all politics and furniture description. I say kill it! next game I might even consider an alignment change to true neutral if that's what it takes to maul the duke to tiny pieces. We are supposed to stop him from being an evil landlord but we can't find the plothook to how we should do that. If it takes one more session I'll eat him. Catlords can do that, if pressed :)

And if they're not using the terrain/allies to full advantage, explain it to them, preferrably the hard way. Have them flanked by foes, give the kobolds cover. and then tell them they could have done the same. All that cuddling and storylining and bantering and pampering. Tactics are a part of D&D, don't leave it out of the encounter because they are girls.

Triaxx
2008-04-26, 03:00 PM
Interestingly, my sister plays, but always plays a fighter.

---

Anyway, my normal group includes two girls, one playing a very studious wizard, the other a barbarian. Whenever we get to a town, the DM gets demands for a Tavern scene. It's almost always one of the girls who starts the inevitable fight. We haven't seen a town in months. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I got 'lucky' in being the one elected to learn 3.5, and teach the rest of them. To debunk the myth of mechanics, the guys were still asking questions three months later. I recall answering a total of four questions from the girls after the first night. Two of those involved me being corrected by them. So expect them to pick it up without problem. Answer questions with a straight face, and keep the fart jokes to a minimum.

Don't forget to give them a chance to show off. Drop a scroll of a spell they can't otherwise use yet, and give them a tailor made opportunity to use it. Drop a scroll of Wail of the Banshee, then have them run into a Kobold army. Be sure to use 'bad sound effect'. If you can make them laugh you're doing good. Got two rogues? Give them guards that can see each other, both with a horn. If they don't go down in the first round they alert the enemy. If they don't come up with it themselves suggest the rogues split up and take them down. Of course you'll always get the one smart aleck who wants to cast silence on one of the guards.

Throw CR-adjusted golems at fighters. Be sure to give the wizard something to do other than use 'friendship and love' (buffs). Winged Kobolds are great. Stuff that can be shot down with arrows or magic missiles, but aren't nearly so frustrating as say, Will-o-wisps.

Rutee
2008-04-26, 03:33 PM
It's not that they're the same, it's that the things you need to know in order to communicate with them aren't a special list of "things to know while teaching a girl D&D." They're more of a general list of "how not to look like a fool in front of women."

Which itself is pretty much the list of stupid guy things (AKA the punching rituals and whatnot) that you shouldn't be doing in front of women, as well as the list of "How not to look like a fool in general", right? :smalltongue:

Starsinger
2008-04-26, 03:46 PM
A guy wants to see the monster so he can bash it's head in.
A girl is more likely to care how the monster got there .... what it is doing there.
Allow more time for banter and expect less time to be spent analyzing the advantages of positioning for flanking/cover etc.
It's more about enjoying the game than Victory and challange.

Doesn't it seem every first time girl goes for the caster classes? Maybe it's because they're more comfortable in a dress...

Try to avoid phrases like "it's simple" or "it's easy". When you're teaching a boy a new technique, and he's struggling to master it, and you say "don't worry, this is simple", the boy will think "okay, so a little more practice and I'll have it". When you're teaching a girl a new technique, and she's struggling to master it, and you say "don't worry, this is simple", the girl will think "I'm stupid because this is apparently really simple but I don't have it figured out yet". You've said the same thing, but they've heard it differently.

Mrrr... Apparently, I'm a girl? I mean despite my having empirical evidence to the contrary...

Rutee
2008-04-26, 03:54 PM
It's an illusion :smallwink:

Drascin
2008-04-26, 04:01 PM
Alternatively, you got a Girdle of Gender Change on yourself when you were a kid and you don't rememeber, but keep the mental processes :smalltongue:

StoryKeeper
2008-04-26, 04:10 PM
Or perhaps an alter self spell?

StoryKeeper
2008-04-26, 04:21 PM
Or perhaps an alter self spell?

Rowan Intheback
2008-04-26, 04:28 PM
The role playing organization at my college has a huge female presence. The members are about 40% female in fact all the officers except for the president are women.

One thing I have noticed is women prefer roleplay to mechanics. Our school is full of hideous power gamers. I mean unless you add 5 to the CR of any encounter it won't last more than two rounds. As you cam imagine there is a lot of ego butting that goes on "my kobold could destroy your half-orc without trying" blah blah blah... My best friend who is one of our female officers refers to this as "Penis contests." She is one of the school's most notorious power gamers; however, she has no interest in the ego of it. Nothing annoys her more than when someone is showing off how crazy their character is. The games she hates the most are the ones that have the subtitle "let's see who can kill more monsters faster." She loves ideas that rotate around plot and provide the opportunity for her to "be" her character. For instance, she reveled in the opportunity to play an undercover cop who was much more underpowered than her usual characters because the world and character were more interesting.

Anyone introducing ladies to D&D should start by remembering that rolling dice is confusing and boring. The best way to get people to care is write up back stories and get your players emotionally attached to the story. Their characters need to feel special and because their first characters are most likely not mechanically sound the best way to do this is have the role play cater to them. You can start to introduce mechanics by rewarding role play with a lot xp. This really gets people into their characters. Then once your players are on their feet you can hit them a little. Throw something big and tough. Have them lose and get captured by something. Drop someone to negative hit points. People pick up mechanics when they're trying to get their characters to survive. I know the only reason I learned mechanics is my DM told me he was going to try and kill me. Just remember not to make it seem hopeless.

If you remember that D&D is about fun and being awesome and not about "winning" any players, male or female will love the game.

Collin152
2008-04-26, 04:31 PM
Remember this the next time your little box of options comes up and you're about to click "mindrape." Remember that some of us have soft minds, as you have soft skin.


Hey, I can't help that I wsa saddled with a d4 HD in exchange for making reality my slave.
You could have taken Iron Will or something, or not have dumped Wisdom.

skywalker
2008-04-26, 07:00 PM
Hey, I can't help that I wsa saddled with a d4 HD in exchange for making reality my slave.
You could have taken Iron Will or something, or not have dumped Wisdom.

Wait, there's something wrong with that logic... but I can't quite figure out what it is. Curse my low wisdom!

Collin152
2008-04-26, 07:06 PM
Wait, there's something wrong with that logic... but I can't quite figure out what it is. Curse my low wisdom!

What am I going to do, not be a full arcane caster?
I can't help that I no longer have a constitution score, either!

Sleet
2008-04-26, 07:13 PM
http://will.incorrige.us/facepalm/picard.jpeg

When I teach a guy how to play, I ask what he's most interested in - kicking backside, telling a cool story, immersing himself in a fantasy world, a little of everything. I get a feel for how much tolerance he has for learning rules. Then I sit him down, walk him through rolling up a character, and off we go.

Substitute "girl" for "guy," "she" for "he," and off you go.

This isn't rocket science.

Dode
2008-04-26, 07:16 PM
I on the other hand like to add an element of risque and allow lady-players a reroll in exchange for an article of clothing.

Collin152
2008-04-26, 07:18 PM
I on the other hand like to add an element of risque and allow lady-players a reroll in exchange for an article of clothing.

Sweet! They reroll if they buy me clothes? I'd totally institute that policy.

Tengu
2008-04-26, 07:23 PM
You introduce girls to RPGs the same way you introduce guys to RPGs, except that beforehand you remove all the porn in your room from clear view.

Dode
2008-04-26, 07:49 PM
Got your D12 right *here*, baby!!!

Rutee
2008-04-26, 07:55 PM
Sweet! They reroll if they buy me clothes? I'd totally institute that policy.

Seconded.
Character Limit.

Dervag
2008-04-26, 08:15 PM
Which itself is pretty much the list of stupid guy things (AKA the punching rituals and whatnot) that you shouldn't be doing in front of women, as well as the list of "How not to look like a fool in general", right? :smalltongue:On the contrary, quite a number of the things on the list are by no means objectively stupid. They are merely things women think are objectively stupid.

Collin152
2008-04-26, 08:16 PM
Seconded.
Character Limit.

On which end?
Getting free clothes, or simultaneously getting a reroll and improving a guy's wardrobe to your specifications?

Rutee
2008-04-26, 08:19 PM
On the contrary, quite a number of the things on the list are by no means objectively stupid. They are merely things women think are objectively stupid.

No matter how many times you claim otherwise, the Three Stooges are still stupid :smallwink:


On which end?
Getting free clothes, or simultaneously getting a reroll and improving a guy's wardrobe to your specifications?
A little from column A, a little from column B.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-26, 08:22 PM
Meh, if you're doing that, go the distance. Dance to the tune of Can't Touch This!

I actually did that once, on a critical situation on a semi-goofy campaign. Everyone was laughing for weeks after that, and it was worth the +20 bonus to the roll!

Collin152
2008-04-26, 08:42 PM
A little from column A, a little from column B.

Methinks I judged this lady too hastily.

AtomicKitKat
2008-05-04, 10:31 AM
No matter how many times you claim otherwise, the Three Stooges are still stupid :smallwink:

Blasphemy! Die Drei Knocklekopfen are tons funnier than about 99% of the stuff the writers put out before their strike(are they still striking? You'd think they'd be broke by now.)