DnD Deities and the idea of Anti-Followers

[Neon Knight]

I've been working on a little homebrew setting, and have hit a bit of a snag. You see, I figured that if worshipers who "believe" in a deity add to that deity's power per the standard DnD universe, then could someone who not only didn't "believe" (not necessarily didn't believe in objective existence, per say) but actively rejected all deities function as a negative worshiper?

Thus was born the idea: The current pantheon of deities is being threatened by a growing movement of people who reject them. The grounds for this rejection vary from the belief that divinely mandated good and evil are not worthwhile (how do non-omniscient and omnipotent entities determine the objective good and evil?), and that only ethics and morality based off of the commonality of the mortal condition and experience are worth following, to the rejection of an objectively known truth and/or reality (and thus bringing rise to the dire postmodernist. :smallsmile:)

The followers of this movement detract from the power of deities by their beliefs. If enough of them came into being, the deities would lose their power.

But I was never able to come up with a reasonable way for the Good and Neutral deities to respond to this. How would Good and Neutral gods respond to the threat of a movement which rejected their "divine mandate" to determine good and evil?

[Reel On, Love]

...The gods don't determine good and evil. They have alignments and support one or the other (or neither to any great extent).

[Neon Knight]

...The gods don't determine good and evil. They have alignments and support one or the other (or neither to any great extent).

For the purpose of this homebrew world, the Gods are responsible for determining objective good and evil, and are in charge of the alignment system.

[Jasdoif]

They would oppose them, of course.

Good and neutral deities use their power to the benefit of their followers, so anything threatening the deities' powers is also threatening the deities' followers.


Good deities would be more likely to try to convince these deist-nihilists about the error of their ways. Perhaps with statements/claims about how there will always be some who are at the top, and without faith to guide the universe/multiverse doubt will raise champions of its own.

Neutral deities are less likely to be concerned with the welfare of those who are not followers nor friendly; but I think it comes down to the specific deity's personality what course they'll take.

Evil deities, of course, would have their own self-interest in mind and seek to wipe out the threat.

[Hal]

I imagine that the world would see a flux of prophets and evangelists: Crusaders, Paladins, Favored Souls . . . holy men and women spreading the word of their respective deities.

If the "anti-followers" organized, I'm willing to bet that the other deities would be organizing campaigns against them. It would be an interesting scenario for a "whatever is necessary" kind of campaign to have good and evil groups fighting side by side against this threat.

[Terraoblivion]

Yes, calling for a revival and spreading missionaries seem to be the only way. However, it could be an interesting story to see their own ethics erode away beneath them as some start heading towards bribery while others begin taking harsher measures in use to keep their flock in line.

[Nohwl]

wouldnt it be easier to use scientists/researchers as the ones who dont believe in the gods? they would be trying to justify everything with logic instead of saying its the will of the gods. instead of saying that the gods dont determine good or evil, the scientists/researchers are saying the gods dont exist and thats causing them to lose power.

no matter what they are, the anti followers are going to have to be stopped. it would start with the good gods trying to convert them, then trying to get more followers to counter act the loss of power from the anti followers. the evil gods would be weakened too, but i think they would send an army to kill the distracted good gods. right before the dieties lose their powers, i think they should do everything in their power to kill the anti followers, as a last effort to retain their powers.

[monty]

wouldnt it be easier to use scientists/researchers as the ones who dont believe in the gods? they would be trying to justify everything with logic instead of saying its the will of the gods. instead of saying that the gods dont determine good or evil, the scientists/researchers are saying the gods dont exist and thats causing them to lose power.

It's hard to argue the gods' nonexistence when you can Plane Shift or whatever and meet them yourself. The point is that people no longer worship the gods, because they think that they don't need divine influence in their lives or whatever.

[Neon Knight]

wouldnt it be easier to use scientists/researchers as the ones who dont believe in the gods? they would be trying to justify everything with logic instead of saying its the will of the gods. instead of saying that the gods dont determine good or evil, the scientists/researchers are saying the gods dont exist and thats causing them to lose power.

No, it wouldn't, because DnD (as in, Greyhawk) and this homebrew world assume that the existence of deities is a concrete provable reality, due to their constant interference in the daily workings of the material plane. Normal atheism doesn't quite work in DnD (Greyhawk).

Also, I find the above ideas to be more interesting and thought provoking than flat-out atheism, which is usually just empiricism in practice.

[Nohwl]

do you have any proof that plane shifting is not an illusion designed to trick people that they are in another dimension?

[GammaPaladin]

How about this: The evil deities are actively working to wipe out the non-believers, and the "good" deities are standing aside and doing nothing to stop it because it benefits them in the end, even though they would find doing the dirty work distasteful.

However, they're being shortsighted like any group of greek-esque gods, and not realizing that they're adding fuel to the fire of the people speaking out against them by not acting to stop the vicious deeds of the evil gods...

[Tequila Sunrise]

Good deities would be more likely to try to convince these deist-nihilists about the error of their ways. Perhaps with statements/claims about how there will always be some who are at the top, and without faith to guide the universe/multiverse doubt will raise champions of its own.

Neutral deities are less likely to be concerned with the welfare of those who are not followers nor friendly; but I think it comes down to the specific deity's personality what course they'll take.

Evil deities, of course, would have their own self-interest in mind and seek to wipe out the threat.

Yeah, this.

As an aside, I hope you either plan to allow atheist clerics or add cure spells to more spell lists. Because no matter how good an argument the nihilists put up, "we gods are the only ones who can instantly heal you" will trump it.

TS

[Neon Knight]

do you have any proof that plane shifting is not an illusion designed to trick people that they are in another dimension?

Actually, yes. When you plane shift, you actually go there; Your body is physically transported to that plane. It disappears from the mortal plane.

[ArlEammon]

For the purpose of this homebrew world, the Gods are responsible for determining objective good and evil, and are in charge of the alignment system.

Ah. Perhaps good and neutral deities could do something like introduce Far Eastern philosophical schools which function the same as worship, and/or a "Saint" system. (veneration).

[monty]

do you have any proof that plane shifting is not an illusion designed to trick people that they are in another dimension?

Illusions can be detected and dispelled; neither can be done to a Plane Shift.

[Nohwl]

you are forgetting that they dont believe it. they are convinced that they are right.

you can tell them that they are in a different plane, but they dont believe you. you could give them an object from it, but they can say it was a rock or whatever that was turned into what you had them pick up and its from the area where the spell was cast. you could cast the spell when they are standing in a crowd of people so there are witnesses to their body disappearing, but it could just as easily be there, and they were the target of an invisibility spell, so noone can see it, or the crowd of people were bribed to say that his body disappeared. they could be wizards who could detect it or dispell it, but when it fails they would just think they werent a good enough wizard to do that yet or its aura was changed. find the best wizard in the world to check to see if its an illusion spell, he lies to you when he says you went to a different plane. this goes back to the logic of plane shifting is nothing more than an elaborate illusion.

they would believe in magic, but the spells that teleport people to different planes, or anything that would allow them to talk to gods or the gods messangers, they dont believe in. anything that there is no definite proof for, they dont believe in.

there is no proof that they accept. every time you try to prove it to them, logic like that would come up no matter how good your proof is. you would need an absolute 100% guaranteed proof that cannot be argued agaisnt no matter what to convince them and that just doesnt exist.

[FlyMolo]

Anti-followers would simply be dead spots in the belief field.

See, DnD works basically like a psychosomatic dream. Like the coma movie where if the guy dies in his coma dream, he dies in real life too. Illusions are real. They can hurt you, unless you disbelieve, them, in which case they can't.

There are other examples, like followers->Deity power. It could be that Deities with x power-> y followers. X and Y proportional.

I like the first option better.

But to skip back to the original question, all clerics believe in all deities(they know about). They believe that they have powers, because the more the cleric believes in his own god, the more militant he is. A militant cleric battles clerics of other gods. Who display obvious divine powers. Ergo, all clerics believe in all gods. It's stupidity to say Erythnul doesn't exist. Patently, he does. It sure isn't Pelor doing all the smiting. Alternate hypotheses might come into play, though. If there's a god who tells his believers that all the other gods are fake and superstition, the followers believe only in him, and that god gets a relative power boost. Only his followers are worshiping him. In fact, if you can get them to go out and actively proselytize other people, you're set to become the only god in the pantheon. (OMG Christianity! A plot hook, anyone?)

The real type of belief that gives gods power is the belief that Pelor is stronger than Erythnul. If you're a cleric of Pelor, you believe quite firmly that Pelor is tougher and more badass that Erythnul. Better in every respect. And because DnD follows rules where believing something hard enough really does make it so, Pelor gets a bit stronger. It's like disbelieving an illusion, but in reverse.

So these Atheists would simply give no belief to anyone. They would need a way of explaining all these clerics away, though. Given the number of wizards, that shouldn't be too hard.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If I understand the OP correctly, they don't actively disbelieve, they simply think the Gods are arrogant and evil and their entire morality system is wrongheaded and borderline evil. So they're not atheists, they're just thinking for themselves.

[FlyMolo]

If I understand the OP correctly, they don't actively disbelieve, they simply think the Gods are arrogant and evil and their entire morality system is wrongheaded and borderline evil. So they're not atheists, they're just thinking for themselves.

So the question is, how strong do they think those gods are?

To those in the know, who've cracked the system and worked out that the gods are only as powerful as the belief they engender and that they are pretty much forced to comply with how they are believed to be, these atheists are scary dangerous.

So they believe that the gods are arbitrary and evil, likely to meddle in the affairs of men for no reason, to nobody'l benefit. So if enough of them believe strongly enough, that'll start to be true. Then they'll get more believers, etc etc etc. Ragnarok.

[monty]

So the question is, how strong do they think those gods are?

To those in the know, who've cracked the system and worked out that the gods are only as powerful as the belief they engender and that they are pretty much forced to comply with how they are believed to be, these atheists are scary dangerous.

So they believe that the gods are arbitrary and evil, likely to meddle in the affairs of men for no reason, to nobody'l benefit. So if enough of them believe strongly enough, that'll start to be true. Then they'll get more believers, etc etc etc. Ragnarok.

Then Ao intervenes and makes them all go away?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

But that proves their point, and a lot of the people who didn't believe the rebels before do now.

[FlyMolo]

Then Ao intervenes and makes them all go away?
Possibly. Who's Ao? I'm not up on my god lore.

I assume he's got hella power, yes?

The safest solution is mindrape all those who've heard about the rebels. With epic magic, that's easy. A magic item of use-activated Mind Rape would cost a bundle, but you're a GOD. A coalition thereof, perhaps. It could be a mind-bopping stick. *bop* "You're a better person and have never heard of anyone not believing that gods absolutely rule." Lather, rinse, and repeat.

A coalition of gods would have trouble not adding a sentence about worshipping themselves, though. Well, the evil and selfish ones.(not the same)

Pelor would never do that.

[Mewtarthio]

If I understand the OP correctly, they don't actively disbelieve, they simply think the Gods are arrogant and evil and their entire morality system is wrongheaded and borderline evil. So they're not atheists, they're just thinking for themselves.

Exactly. They're misotheists.

This reminds me of a character from Fall from Heaven 2: A former arcangel who was so opposed to gods interfering with mortal affairs that he abandoned heaven to lead a nation founded entirely on humanist principles. Granted, it's a fairly dark setting, and the religion of ultimate good is an all-pervasive, soul-crushing despotism, plus their really is a power greater than the gods, so he's got a good point.

-----

Anyway, the Good Gods have a simple solution to this problem:

1) Use their powers of objective morality to declare misotheism Evil.

2) Throw the BoED at them. Rain Golden Ice down on their heads. Use sanctify the wicked on the strongest among them to brainwash them to your side. Remember, it's in the BoED, so it must be Good (plus they can pretty much declare it to be Good on their own anyway).

3) Sigh heavily and express deep regret and sorrow. "Why did you make us do that? You know how much we hate it when you make us perform genocide on you."

Another possibility: No afterlife will accept the soul of a misotheist. When a misotheist dies, something nasty happens to his soul. Maybe he gets eaten by barghests, maybe he ceases to exist save perhaps as a vestige, or maybe he rises again as an insane ghost and can never find rest until he pledges himself to a god. Regardless, if the fate of a misotheist after death is truly horrible, most people will avoid that philosophy. Best of all, the Good gods don't have to get their hands dirty. They just have to say, "Sorry, you just don't fit in this afterlife. Try the one down the street."

-----

What about the misotheists themselves? Have they fully considered what would happen if they successfully killed the gods? What would happen to morality and to the afterlife? Would people be cursed to eternally roam the earth as ghosts, or would all people just fade away after death, or would you get some sort of subjectively determined afterlife in which you go to whatever eternal reward is chosen by either you or the aggregate moral beliefs of all humanity?

[monty]

Possibly. Who's Ao? I'm not up on my god lore.

I assume he's got hella power, yes?

Ao is 1337, yes. He's basically who the gods worship.

[FlyMolo]

Ao is 1337, yes. He's basically who the gods worship.:smalleek: I must read more about him. Where can I him?

And as far as the afterlife being chosen by the aggregate beliefs of humanity, define gods as getting their power from beings believing in them, and what you get is the current system.

[Aquillion]

Possibly. Who's Ao? I'm not up on my god lore.

I assume he's got hella power, yes?Ao was a super-god who, at one point, depowered all the deities in one setting for an absurdly stupid reason. They've been increasingly writing Ao out of the setting, though (there was even an in-setting justification for this that he's erasing himself from history or some such thing.) I'm not sure he's canon anymore, and even if he is there have been fairly heavy-handed hints that he won't be soon.

[dukeh016]

I actually really like this idea. I like it so much because it's so believable, and because I think the good and neutral gods really would struggle with the issue. I can see 3 responses;

1) The first is mentioned above. Have the gods declare the anti-believers evil and then rid them from the world.

2) Have the gods ignore the uprising. Perhaps an extra act of good here and a little neutrality there (how neutral gods apply their will has always boggled me) and maybe the followers will just come back.

3) Create a new god to represent the beliefs of this uprising. If belief = power, then new believers must create a new power. Perhaps it should be a god of non-involvement, lord of all apathy, or something along those lines. If the irony of the situation doesn't kill off the followers immediately, then perhaps the good gods will really fade from the world. After all, isn't a huge part of being good self-sacrifice?

I personally like the third option, but mostly for the sake of novelty. Just killing all those pesky buggers would probably the most practical choice.

Regards,
Duke

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Actually, depending on the pantheon, an existing god may be empowered by them. Maybe Vecna? This seems like the sort of thing he'd start just to mess with the others.

[Dervag]

wouldnt it be easier to use scientists/researchers as the ones who dont believe in the gods? they would be trying to justify everything with logic instead of saying its the will of the gods. instead of saying that the gods dont determine good or evil, the scientists/researchers are saying the gods dont exist and thats causing them to lose power.It's a popular archetype, but a good scientist in a D&D world would be the last person to deny the existence and power of the gods.

Now, they might try to measure it, analyze it, and perhaps even duplicate it. Deny it? No.


do you have any proof that plane shifting is not an illusion designed to trick people that they are in another dimension?Cure spells. Summoned celestials.

Sure, it can be a trick in some obscure sense, but the 'trick' beings have to come from somewhere. And if the beings that are pretending to be gods are as powerful as D&D gods are observed to be, then it isn't a trick. They really are gods.


you are forgetting that they dont believe it. they are convinced that they are right...

you can tell them that they are in a different plane, but they dont believe you.

they would believe in magic, but the spells that teleport people to different planes, or anything that would allow them to talk to gods or the gods messangers, they dont believe in. anything that there is no definite proof for, they dont believe in.

there is no proof that they accept. every time you try to prove it to them, logic like that would come up no matter how good your proof is.OK, but if they're like that then it's a flat out lie to call them "scientists" or "researchers." They aren't doing "research" any more than a knitting circle is. What they're doing is "ignoring the evidence."

That's extremely poor practice in actual science. In a world where it is objective fact that healing magic exists (but arcane casters can never learn it), extraplanar beings exist, and so forht and so on, all this is measurable. Real scientists who can honestly be called researchers would sit down and start trying to work out how it works, but they wouldn't assume it was all a hoax for more than a few spell castings.

Also, you can't make people who automatically ignore any attempt to prove X, and who don't care how absurd the house of cards they build to deny X is, into convincing characters. It doesn't work. They'll look stupid and will convince no one. And they certainly won't be a growing movement that actually endangers existing deities- no sane person in a D&D setting would start flatly denying the existence of the deities, or of healing spells, or of extraplanar beings.


If I understand the OP correctly, they don't actively disbelieve, they simply think the Gods are arrogant and evil and their entire morality system is wrongheaded and borderline evil. So they're not atheists, they're just thinking for themselves.They're thinking for themselves, and in my opinion they're doing it badly if the deities of this D&D system are typical. Some D&D deities really would be worth worshipping in a polytheistic universe where they actually existed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

They're thinking for themselves, and in my opinion they're doing it badly if the deities of this D&D system are typical. Some D&D deities really would be worth worshipping in a polytheistic universe where they actually existed.You used silenced, stilled Cheat spells to win the kidnapped princess with a bet, then used Evil spells to slay a Black Dragon. You now go to the lowest plane of hell. Any deity that endorses a system like that (and silence is endorsement) is evil, and refusing to worship them should be applauded.

Plus, why worship them even if they are good? So were the firemen who ran in on 9/11, and no one worships them. Power is not inherently deserving of respect.

[Mewtarthio]

They're thinking for themselves, and in my opinion they're doing it badly if the deities of this D&D system are typical. Some D&D deities really would be worth worshipping in a polytheistic universe where they actually existed.

They might not necessarily believe every god is a bad person; they're just opposed to the concept of gods in general.

[Dervag]

Plus, why worship them even if they are good? So were the firemen who ran in on 9/11, and no one worships them. Power is not inherently deserving of respect.The answer to your question is transcendance.

It makes sense to worship a being if and only if it possesses a degree of spiritual perfection that transcends what is possible for you. This may manifest as moral goodness, as power (in a D&D universe, there are several paths to power that revolve around making oneself into a pure being of some type, for good, for law, or for evil), or in some other way.

A mortal hero, be they a great warrior or a brave man who rushes into danger to save people, or any other thing, is still mortal. Mortal beings are, by nature, not pure. It is our way to be made of a mix of forces and to have many conflicting drives. There is no sense in worshipping such a creature- though if it is much more powerful than you, you would be wise to stay on its good side.

But if the D&D gods are (as they probably ought to be) powerful personifications of pure ideals, then they do deserve worship by someone who feels those ideals are of paramount importance. A supremely merciful being, one who physically embodies the notion of mercy, would deserve worship by people who wish to devote themselves to the cause of mercy or who wish to draw some bit of this pure mercy into themselves.

Note that the pure ideal in question doesn't have to be good. For example, I could substitute "prosperity" or "obedience to law at any cost" or "bloodlust" for "mercy" and the above paragraph would make about as much sense.*

So people who believe in an ideal, or who want to manipulate the balance of ideals in their own lives (more prosperity, less bloodlust) might want to worship or propitiate the appropriate gods. Because it is the gods that provide a focus for the abstract physical forces and philosophical concepts that make up the universe.

And without the gods, or with greatly disempowered gods, the balance of forces will tend to fall apart and mortals will become more and more erratic as they lose the ability to draw on the supernatural wellsprings of qualities and powers.


Of course, if the gods are essentially just big people in the sky who have exceptional powers but who are in character the same as mortals, this argument doesn't apply.


* At least, philosophically- the grammar would be a hash.

[Mewtarthio]

But if the D&D gods are (as they probably ought to be) powerful personifications of pure ideals, then they do deserve worship by someone who feels those ideals are of paramount importance. A supremely merciful being, one who physically embodies the notion of mercy, would deserve worship by people who wish to devote themselves to the cause of mercy or who wish to draw some bit of this pure mercy into themselves.

So these misotheists could be a philosophical sect that actually believes that single ideals are bad. They would not worship a god of justice or vengeance or mercy because they believe any punishment must be made with all three of those kept in consideration. They would not worship a god of war or peace because they believe that both perpetual war and perpetual peace would be bad things. They would not even worship a god of balance, because balance for balance's sake alone is useless. They would believe a rigid adherence to any philosophy is ultimately destructive, and they would deprive the gods of worship because the gods demand such obedience.

Is that roughly correct?

[bbugg]

I love this idea.

I also second the idea that thier shared 'beliefs' that gods should not interfere has spawned a new god of non-interference. Of course, his followers would have no idea and he would go to great lengths to keep the information from them lest they turn on him.

The evil gods will try to wipe out the non-believers, and the goods and neutrals would be in a tough place. Sometimes actually aligning with the evils a little, other times just letting the evils do the dirty work and sometimes having to step in because the evils are being just a little too evil. Once they discovered the new god, they would likely try to convince his followers that he exists and is no different from them. This would be faught tooth and nail, of course, because it shows that their position is futile.

What in interesting setting this would create... Mind if I steal the idea??? Can I ask if you're planning on posting this anywhere when you're done with it??

[bbugg]

I'm thinking that in a world like this, the "detect" spells detect the touch of the gods, or indirectly, the beliefs of the subject. So, if you worship a chaotic good god, you'd register as a little chaotic and a little good. This is not to say you are 'good' and 'chaotic' for the purposes of spells, etc, simply that you register this way. These spells could then be used to 'prove' you're a non-believer. Maybe there's even a new class of 'detect' spell - 'detect void' or 'detect non-belief'.

If the gods define good and evil, then the new god has made a new 'alignment' that is thought of as void. Therefore a new detect spell could work. Maybe introduce this mid-campaign as the followers of the old gods have been studying this for a while.

I like the the idea of an inquisition style group seeking out the non-believers using these spells...


Out of curiosity, where do you see your PCs fitting? Are they with the old gods or are they non-believers?