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View Full Version : Anecdotes and advice needed for Beguiler



Frosty
2008-04-25, 11:29 PM
I may be going into a game starting at ECL 15. The books we have access to are:

All completes
PHB and DMG 1 and 2
Races of Destiny
Unearthed Arcana
Tome of Magic
Heroes of Horror
Libris Mortis
Book Of Vile Darkness
Expanded Psionics Book
Epic Level Handbook
Draconomicon
Spell Compendium
Drow of the Underdark

No Races of Stone means no Shadowcraft killer Gnome, unfortunately. Given that, what are some advice on how to adventure as a high level Beguiler? I plan on taking a level of Mindbender somewhere, and perhaps one level of Archmage to get Timestop as a SLA later on. But...I don't really know what to do to win encounters at higher levels without the usual wizardy assortment of spells (and I'm not sure what to do during Timestop. I can buff a bit I guess and maybe set up some Solid Fogs. But what else?

I get the feeling picking the correct advanced learnings wil be important as well.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-25, 11:47 PM
Pick Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.

Also, take Mindbender before your first Advanced Learning. It lets you get better spells.

Frosty
2008-04-26, 12:10 AM
Also, take Mindbender before your first Advanced Learning. It lets you get better spells.

I do not believe that is possible. I don't qualify at level 3.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-26, 12:18 AM
Well, whichever one it is that lets you qualify for the Shadow spells early. I think you have to take a level as you hit 6 so you can get Shadow Conj at 7.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-04-26, 12:29 AM
It's Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Beguiler rest that lets you take Shadow Conjuraiton at Beg 5/Mind 1/Beg +2, since you get 4th level spells then.


I've never had anything but fun running a Beguiler.
At high levels, they're somewhat less powerful than they start as, but they're still pretty good. Ironically, the best approach is unsubtle--take Heighten Spell, and hammer away with high-DC save-or-sucks until your enemies fail. Mass Suggestion, Heightened Glitterdust, Heightened Slow... shadow conjurations/evocations are your backup, as is UMD.

Get a staff; you can use your caster level and ability score for them.

Frosty
2008-04-26, 12:34 AM
edited: double post

Frosty
2008-04-26, 02:24 AM
Hey, if a houserule was introduced such that Beguilers can have Eccletic Learning instead of Advanced learning, what spells would you have the Beguiler learn? Let's see, what are some good level 7 save-or-sucks that are fort or reflex? Or hell, some plain no-save-and-suck spells. Maybe Disintegrate?

Also, is Otto's Irresistable Dance still worth it if the Beguiler does get Eccletic Learning?

Reinboom
2008-04-26, 08:28 AM
Learning from anywhere, what that opens up for the beguiler, for utility and ability.

Cloudkilll
Contingency
Enervation
Disintegrate
Shivering Touch
Teleport
Bite of the Werebear
Energy Transformation Field
Overland Flight
Wind Wall
Bands of Steel (3rd level Reflex save control spell)

Frosty
2008-04-26, 11:29 AM
enervation sounds like a good idea, but I'd like something that can shore up my weak points. It can't affect undead.

Is undead affectedby Shivering Touch? Probably not. But Disintegrate works on them since it works on objects right? And they usually have low fort saves thanks to a lack of con score.

What do you think about picking up Celerity?

Reinboom
2008-04-26, 06:43 PM
...Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution)...

Shivering is a no go for Undead. Disintegrate is the best option for them.
Also, if undead is a worry, I would consider using your lower level 'Eccletic Learning' in to a Protection from Evil. At a minimum, it's a charm suppressor.

Celerity would make an excellent option for a high level Beguiler. Since, you can hit with a save spell while the enemy is flat footed, quicken one, then celerity in a 3rd. You have the spell slots to do it.

If undead are definitely a worry, however, Disintegrate would probably be your best option.

Letsee, EL at...
3: Protection from Evil
8: Celerity
12: Disintegrate
16: ? (I would say Cloudkill, Contigency, or Enervation are all good here, or something else entirely - 8th level spells is a pretty broad selection)
20: Gate. :smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-04-26, 06:56 PM
Well I don't know what I'll be facing to be honest. Undead is just one of the things that are immune to 95% of my spells. I'll probably pull out Disintegrate against Oozes, undead, constructs, etc.

It's too bad Beguilers don't get Foresight. We do get Timestop though, so i can still Celerity then Timestop after the surprise round.

What race would you recommend for a Beguiler? I'm trying to decide between Gray/Sun Elf, Human, Lesser Tiefling. If there a Small race with bonus to Int?

Reinboom
2008-04-26, 07:07 PM
I would either go for Human or Gray Elf. Intelligence and Dexterity boosts are pleasant, depending on how you build your skills.

I would recommend building the beguiler first, as though you had a blank race that has no bonuses, then seeing which race fits it best, asking questions such as "do I need an extra feat that humans give?" "would that +1 init and +1 ranged touch spells from that dex bonus, not to mention the int bonus, be worth it?" etc.

Actually, I recommend always doing this for any time you are not doing a racial conceptual build and just building to a class.

-edit-
Is retraining allowed?
If not, next level is an even level anyways, so you could do the default spell switch out in case one of your selections don't appeal to you. So, I would say go with the safer route and choose Disintegrate.

Frosty
2008-04-26, 07:18 PM
Retraining is not allowed. Which would you go for between Gray elves and Lesser Tieflings if you didn't need the human feat?

Gray Elf vs Tiefling, Lesser

-2 str, +2 dex, -2 con, +2 int || +2 dex, +2 int, -2 cha
Immunity to sleep || Resist 5 Cold, electricity, fire
Weapon proficiencies || Darkness 1/day
+2 vs Enchantment spells || nothing
Low light vision || Darkvision
+2 to Listen, Search, and Spot || +2 Bluff, Hide

IMO,
I see the skills as a wash. All those skills are good for a Beguiler.
Darkvision beats LLV
+2 against enchantment is great obviously, and it beats the nothing Lesser Tieflings get.
Weapon profs...Beguilers don't really rely on them,so I'll take Darkness 1/day.
At higher levels, you rarely, if ever, see Sleep effects. Resist 5 to some elements isn't *much*, but it probably comes into play much more often, so the Resists win out here.
Stats-wise, I really hate losing Con. Just by not having -2 con, Tieflings look better in this deivision.

Frosty
2008-04-26, 07:19 PM
If not, next level is an even level anyways, so you could do the default spell switch out in case one of your selections don't appeal to you. So, I would say go with the safer route and choose Disintegrate.

What do you mean default spell switch out? I'm not a sorcerer. I don't switch out spells known and stuff. And yes, I'm leaning towards Disintegrate.

Reinboom
2008-04-26, 07:51 PM
Yeah, oops, ignore that.

I would go with tiefling. It's easy to adjust as though that negative wasn't even there, if you are not set to be the party face. Overall, I would say better.

Chronos
2008-04-27, 12:19 AM
It's too bad Beguilers don't get Foresight. We do get Timestop though, so i can still Celerity then Timestop after the surprise round.Remember, you're a beguiler. You've got Hide, Move Silently, Search, and Spot all as class skills. You've got illusions out the wazoo. If there's a surprise round in any given combat, it's because of you.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 12:28 AM
Do you think those are worth maxing out? I only get so many skill points per level...

Let's see...I also need Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Disable Device, Sleigh of Hand, Tumble, and UMD.

Man...I hate choosing :p

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-27, 12:30 AM
Do you think those are worth maxing out? I only get so many skill points per level...

Let's see...I also need Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Disable Device, Sleigh of Hand, Tumble, and UMD.

Man...I hate choosing :pInt-based caster. You should be fine.

Frosty
2008-04-27, 12:33 AM
Well sure. But I'll still only have 10 or 11 skill points per level. We're rolling instad of pt-buy, so I'm not even guaranteed to have a 20 Int first level. I've got like 14 skills I really want to have.