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rockdeworld
2008-04-26, 12:39 AM
What makes a good tank? I would guess the basic premise to be something like this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51144).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-26, 12:46 AM
Max HP/per level, so cheating. It should have about 256. And Cindy could still kill it with a 4th level slot. Plus, 10 touch AC is begging for an Arcane Reached Irresistible Dance, to take him out of the battle. Or just Arcane Reach Shivering Touch, it only has 10 Dex. Overall, the worst tank I've seen since the Knight.

FlyMolo
2008-04-26, 01:10 AM
That's pretty fail, as tanks go. Got the right premise, but not quite optimized.

I'm sure there's a template that grants DR out there. look for one. Consider taking the dragonborn template if you don't much like your racial abilities and would like more con.

Also, check out the spelltouched feat Bladeproof skin. DR 3/bludgeoning. And there's a variant in CAdv(I think?? Maybe Races of the Dragon. Or Player's guide to Faerun) that gives a rage that always functions while you have less that 5* barbarian level hitpoints left. Lasts as long as you like, as many times per day as you like, and grants DR 2.

Get a mount. Cheap mobility and attacks. Plus lance-stabbing. And there's a fun soulmeld in MoI called the mantle of flame. Check it out. With a feat or two, maybe a level, you can shape it. 1d6 to people who attack you? It's like being a fire elemental.

Frosty
2008-04-26, 01:12 AM
Well, nothing can beat Cindy, except another Cindy or a planar shepherd. Tanks don't do much unless you disallow all the things that let wizards go first. And even then, you have to win initiative so you have to ban hummingbird familiars.

Basically, you'll want your caster friends to cast Deathward, Mind Blank, and possibly something that'll absorb 4th level spells or lower and hope the mage didn't use Heighten spell so Orbs can't affect you.

Attilargh
2008-04-26, 01:35 AM
The whole point of tanks is that they soak up damage, right? You can't do that unless you force the opponents into attacking you, and there are precious few ways to do that in D&D. Without it, you're just an angry piece of scenery.

skywalker
2008-04-26, 01:44 AM
The whole point of tanks is that they soak up damage, right? You can't do that unless you force the opponents into attacking you, and there are precious few ways to dot hat in D&D. Without it, you're just an angry piece of scenery.

Enlarge person. EWP(Spiked Chain). Standstill(or something like that. They make lockdown builds) Combat Reflexes, etc.

@molo: You get 20 levels, but only 9 or so feats. Therefore, levels are almost always cheaper than feats.

Tyrael
2008-04-26, 01:52 AM
The whole point of tanks is that they soak up damage, right? You can't do that unless you force the opponents into attacking you, and there are precious few ways to do that in D&D. Without it, you're just an angry piece of scenery.

Hence Fighters in 4.0.

JaxGaret
2008-04-26, 01:55 AM
Without it, you're just an angry piece of scenery.

I lol'ed. text

Frosty
2008-04-26, 02:08 AM
Without it, you're just an angry piece of scenery.

I thought that was the job of the Samurai?

rockdeworld
2008-04-26, 09:13 AM
That's pretty fail, as tanks go. Got the right premise, but not quite optimized.

I'm sure there's a template that grants DR out there. look for one. Consider taking the dragonborn template if you don't much like your racial abilities and would like more con.

Also, check out the spelltouched feat Bladeproof skin. DR 3/bludgeoning. And there's a variant in CAdv(I think?? Maybe Races of the Dragon. Or Player's guide to Faerun) that gives a rage that always functions while you have less that 5* barbarian level hitpoints left. Lasts as long as you like, as many times per day as you like, and grants DR 2.

Get a mount. Cheap mobility and attacks. Plus lance-stabbing. And there's a fun soulmeld in MoI called the mantle of flame. Check it out. With a feat or two, maybe a level, you can shape it. 1d6 to people who attack you? It's like being a fire elemental.
Couldn't find the Dragonborn template or that variant (I play mostly core), and I don't know a thing about soulmelds. I took the Bladeproof feat for the DR, but decided against mounted combat, since it seems like a waste of feats, and mounts can't go anywhere inside anyway.

Taking all that into account, you mean something more like this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51144)? (Yes I know it's the same sheet posted again)

Chineselegolas
2008-04-26, 09:18 AM
Toughness... May as well take still focus basketweaving.

Improved Toughness, CW. One hp per level. Much better if you are after straight HP.

Talya
2008-04-26, 09:21 AM
Couldn't find the Dragonborn template or that variant (I play mostly core), and I don't know a thing about soulmelds. I took the Bladeproof feat for the DR, but decided against mounted combat, since it seems like a waste of feats, and mounts can't go anywhere inside anyway.

Taking all that into account, you mean something more like this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51144)? (Yes I know it's the same sheet posted again)

Mmm. Low touch AC, low will & reflex saves.

That "tank" is my bitch.

(Mind you, it has enough Hit Points to last until Nara's Binding Vapors time runs out...I'd have to use another spell. Dominate Person it is! No, indomitable will and rage won't help you. Roll a 20.)

kamikasei
2008-04-26, 09:27 AM
Charisma of 4? ...Ego whip, surely?

Worira
2008-04-26, 09:36 AM
You know DR doesn't stack, right?

EDIT: also, you have epic equipment. And you aren't even proficient with the armour. And your AC is still terrible.

Riffington
2008-04-26, 09:36 AM
Just to clarify, the problem is that you're trying to extend an idea past its level range. A tank can take lots of hits, do some damage, and shield the party for round after round. But that is a concept that doesn't go to level 20, where whoever goes first just kills everyone else.

Eldariel
2008-04-26, 09:55 AM
Having 3 pieces of epic equipment on level 20 sure is nice. Making use of them? Well, that'd be broken. Want DR? Be a Mineral Warrior. It's DR/Adamantine, but still, it'll last you your entire career; even Balor doesn't have Adamantine weaponry by MM and is likelier to wield Silver due to the whole blood war thing. More importantly, it costs you nothing but LA +1 as opposed to a variety of equipment that could be used better (and that don't stack) and taking 20 levels in a rather weak and single-minded class.

Pretty much what has been said, standing there won't force your opponents to hit you. On the contrary, it allows the opponent to attack your squishier members unimpeded and once the firepower is dead, you'll die an unceremonial dead unable to do anything. Therefore, make sure you matter. Cover more than just your square. You want to be a tank? Make sure you're being hit. Covering area with a reach weapon and AoOs is a good way to do it. Some ToB maneuvers are too. Also, make sure you can take all sorts of attacks, Magical and Mundane. That means getting some high saving throws, potentially pumping up your Touch AC, and adding a variety of defensive effects (displacement-effects, a variety of immediate counter actions and ways to rid yourself/be immune to a variety of status conditions) to your repertoire.


The simpliest effective tank is Crusader 20 with Thicket of Blades, EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer and an assortment of other feats. Crusader is basically a tank and a half right out of the bag, making it an easy choice if you aren't big for optimizing.

Squash Monster
2008-04-26, 09:58 AM
Being a tank in the MMO sense of being a big beefy guy who gets hit so other people have to just doesn't work in D&D. It only works in MMOs because of aggro mechanics -- which don't model anything that should actual exist in a system where foes behave somewhat intelligently.

Instead, you have to deconstruct the tank concept and realize that your goal really isn't to be the guy who gets hit: your goal is to be the guy who stops everyone else from getting hit.

In D&D, you do that using a lockdown strategy.

Lockdown is the combination of a reach weapon with either Stand Still or Improved Trip. Improved Trip works a bit better, but only on humanoids of roughly your size: Stand Still works on everything.

The trick with Stand Still is that you need your attacks of opportunity to do lots and lots of damage so you can substitute those out for insanely high reflex save DCs. There are two good ways to do this. One of these is take a few levels of Monk then take the Serpent Strike feat and the Decisive Strike substitution level. This works at early levels. A better method only works starting at level 16: the 16th level Fighter substitution level in PHBII does a great job on lockdown builds.

Finally, once you have your lockdown method, just pick up feats like Defensive Sweep, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, and Robilar's Gambit. Another major useful feat is Travel Devotion, which lets you run into the fray and activate your field of death on the same turn.

Combine that with the caster killing feats and Enlarge Person and you have a major threat even to CoDzilla.

InkEyes
2008-04-26, 10:16 AM
Couldn't find the Dragonborn template or that variant (I play mostly core), and I don't know a thing about soulmelds. I took the Bladeproof feat for the DR, but decided against mounted combat, since it seems like a waste of feats, and mounts can't go anywhere inside anyway.

Taking all that into account, you mean something more like this (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=51144)? (Yes I know it's the same sheet posted again)

The Dragonborn info is on WotC site (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) if you want to use it.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-04-26, 10:25 AM
How did you get 3,280,000+ gp for those three epic items at ECL 20? I think that exceeds your WBL pretty well.

Quincunx
2008-04-26, 03:14 PM
Squash Monster--

A standing ovation for your post. I've seen that point made before, but never so quickly nor so exactly.

When I brought up the same question, awhile back, the Knight was recommended, having both abilities analogous to MMO tanking (Challenge for Honor, I believe it was) and abilities useful to D&D lockdown (I forget the term, but the ability to make certain areas 'difficult' terrain, hindering dex-/tumble-based evaders of melee).

SurlySeraph
2008-04-26, 03:19 PM
You know DR doesn't stack, right?

DR of different types doesn't stack. If you have DR 4/Cold Iron and DR 3/Bludgeoning, you have DR 4 against non-cold iron weapons, DR 3 against non-Bludgeoning weapons, and no DR against cold iron bludgeoning weapons.

monty
2008-04-26, 03:24 PM
You want a tank? Play an awakened rhino or something like that, take levels in wizard, specialize in Evocation (yes, I know that's suboptimal), and toss fireballs everywhere. There's a tank for you.

sikyon
2008-04-26, 04:04 PM
DR of different types doesn't stack. If you have DR 4/Cold Iron and DR 3/Bludgeoning, you have DR 4 against non-cold iron weapons, DR 3 against non-Bludgeoning weapons, and no DR against cold iron bludgeoning weapons.

DR never stacks, unless it explicitly says so. DR/8 Adamantine from adamantine warforged and DR/8 Adamantine from mineral warrior won't stack to give you DR/16.


If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

Paul H
2008-04-26, 08:38 PM
Hi

I reckon best tanks are Druids, pure & simple. Try besting a Huge Earth Elemental, wearing Wild Shaping +3 Dragonhide Full Plate, casting Bite of Werebear (SpC).

Str 45 Dex 10 Con 29. AC 36. DR 5/-. Elemental Traits. Glide. Plus Awesome Blow, Pwr Attack, Cleave, Gt Cleave, Iron Will, Imp Bull Rush gained as racial feats. (You do lose yours). You still have all your spells as Druid (except 6th lvl Bite spell).

Or, for something completely different, try Druid 10, master Many Forms 10. You can shift into a Dragon, Giant, Aberration, Plant, etc, up to 20HD/Huge.
Just need 4th lvl spell from SpC to gain Extraordinary abilities. (Can't use spells/spell like/supernatural abilities).

Using above armour & Bite of Weretiger spell:

Huge Young Adult Gold Dragon:
Str 43 Dex 14 Con 27. AC 39. SR 21. Frightful Presence. DC 24. etc.

Large Firbolg (Giant)
Str 48 . Dex 17 Con 29 AC 38 Trample. Fast Heal 3. Etc.

This without spending all that lovely GP your character has at lvl 20.
In theory you can play a Troll, complete with regen by the time you're 9th lvl. (Druid 7/Mstr Many Forms 2 - Druid 9/Mstr Many Forms 2 for Firbolg).

Cheers
Paul H