Gestalt Multiclassing Question

[mikethepoor]

When playing a gestalt campaign, if I decide to keep one of my two original classes and gain 1st level in a different class, how do I determine how my saving throw bonuses increase?

[Chronos]

First of all, it's recommended that you use fractional advancement on saves and BAB, since it makes the calculations a lot easier. That is to say, a character with one level each in rogue, bard, cleric, and druid would have a BAB of +3, as opposed to the +0 that character would get under the standard rules.

So what you do, is at each level, look at which saves are good saves for you, and which ones are poor. For each good save, you add a half a point at that level. For each poor save, you add 1/3 of a point. In addition, at any level where you pick up the first level of a class that has a good save, you add another +2 to that save. After you've added up all of your halves and thirds, you round down to the nearest integer.

For instance, let's say that you start off as a wizard/barbarian for two levels, then switch to wizard/ranger for two more. At first level, you have good Fort and Will, so you add a half a point to each, and poor Reflex, for a third of a point. In addition, it's your first level of wizard, so you get an extra +2 Will, and it's your first level of barbarian, so you get an extra +2 fort. So your saves are Fort 2 1/2, Reflex 1/3, Will 2 1/2, rounded down to 2/0/2.

At second level, you gain another half-point each in Fort and Will, and a third of a point in Reflex. That takes you to Fort 3, Ref 2/3, Will 3, rounded down to 3/0/3.

At third level, all of your saves are good now, since ranger gets good Fort and Reflex, so you add a half-point to each. It's also your first level of ranger, so you add an additional +2 to ranger's good saves, for an additional +2 to Fort and Reflex. So now your totals are up to Fort 5 1/2, Ref 3 1/6, Will 3 1/2, rounded down to Fort 5, Ref 3, Will 3.

At fourth level, all of your saves are still good, so you add another 1/2 point to each. Your total is now Fort 6, Ref 3 2/3, Will 4, rounded down to 6/3/4.

Got it?

[mikethepoor]

Yes, that's what I was looking for. Thanks!

EDIT: That brings up an interesting challenge. Going by RAW as in PHB (as opposed to fractional advancement from UA), what's the highest level (without LA) a character could reach and still have a BAB of +0?

[kamikasei]

In addition, at any level where you pick up the first level of a class that has a good save, you add another +2 to that save.

I don't think I'd allow that; it's exactly the opposite of fractional anything. Rather it seems much more reasonable to me to say that you gain a single +2 to a given save above the thirds and halves if it is a good save for any class you have. Is the way you describe standard practice?


EDIT: That brings up an interesting challenge. Going by RAW as in PHB (as opposed to fractional advancement from UA), what's the highest level (without LA) a character could reach and still have a BAB of +0?

What books are available? You can go all the way to twenty easily just by taking 1/2 and 3/4 BAB classes in one-level dips. Bard, cleric, druid, monk, rogue, sorcerer, wizard - that's seven levels in core with a really crappy character. Then add similar low-BAB PrCs, or go outside core.

[Chronos]

I don't think I'd allow that; it's exactly the opposite of fractional anything. Rather it seems much more reasonable to me to say that you gain a single +2 to a given save above the thirds and halves if it is a good save for any class you have. Is the way you describe standard practice?Well, in the standard rules, a 3rd-level fighter/barbarian/ranger ends up with a base fort save of +6, from adding all of the first-level bonuses together. This is the same effect. One is perfectly free to change that, of course, but that's a separate question from whether one is using fractional BAB.

[Tokiko Mima]

The problem I have with using the fractional BAB/Saves is that it completely kills the advantage you get per RAW for multiclassing on those bonuses. The standard rules give you +2 to saves every time you take a new class with that same Good save. For example, a Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Paladin 1 has a Fort save of +8 instead of the +4 you get from the fractional calculation Chronos gave. They do lose the +1 Reflex and Will Saves, but thats a very small cost for such a huge benefit.

Now, you can make a good argument for how it's unbalanced for a 4th level character to have a +8 base save bonus (it really is, I won't argue), but the point is that using fractional calculations invariably penalizes the character's saves versus the method described in the PHB. Knowing that, why would anyone ever choose to calculate Saves fractionally if they had a choice?

On the other hand, calculating BAB fractionally can benefit a character if they have a lot of 3/4 BAB classes they are multiclassing in, especially if they aren't taking at least 4 levels of each. So it's worth it to calculate this way if you want to increase your BAB and have a good portion of 1/2 or 3/4 BAB classes or PrC's.

So it's a toss up. It really depends on the character you're making which is better. The more you multiclass, the better the standard rules tend to be to your saves, but BAB tends to be better in some cases with the fractional method.

My advice for a DM is that if you're going to require the fractional method, drop multiclass XP penalties. Since Multiclassing doesn't benefit the characters much anymore, why should they pay extra XP for it?

[Bauglir]

Like Chronos said, you still do gain the +2, so Fractional is better all around. Unless you houserule, like I do, that the +2 only applies to the first class with that as a good save. I do it because the game is already heavily slanted toward making saves, so it doesn't really hurt too much, and because it makes more sense to me, personally. Besides, you don't need more of a reason to multiclass than the class features, I think.