Conan the Barbarian vs the Witch King

[Zenos]

As the title say, who would win.

Battlefield: The ruined city of Osgiliath at night-time.

Witch-king's assets:
Magical powers
Two thousand Morannon Orcs
His mace
His Morgul-blade
Armour
Fell beast
Any other stuff he has is the books.


Conan's assets:
A bastard sword
A shield
An axe
A bow
Heavy chain-mail armour
A bunch of aquilonian soldiers, about five hundred.
A belt that give Conan some resistance against the sorcery of the Witch King and lets him harm the WK.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think that it needs to be said here, that to even harm the Witch King Conan needs some sorcery of his own...

[Callos_DeTerran]

I think that it needs to be said here, that to even harm the Witch King Conan needs some sorcery of his own...

'The best invocation is a swift and sure blade' -Conan

Not word for word but it's to those effects. Conan wins. It may take a while to whittle the orcs away with his 500 troops (why does he get gimped on troops by the way?) but it'll be done and then Conan will kill the Witch-King.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I think that it needs to be said here, that to even harm the Witch King Conan needs some sorcery of his own...

1. The Witch King was killed by someone with no magic what so ever.

2. Conan is perfectly capable of killing a sorcerer when he wants to.

[warty goblin]

1. The Witch King was killed by someone with no magic what so ever.

2. Conan is perfectly capable of killing a sorcerer when he wants to.

And that person was, by dint of gender, the only person on the entire battlefield who could do that. According to the Witch King, "No living man may hinder me!" Conan is male, human and living, and therefor completely unable to harm the Witch King. No matter whether you interpret this in terms of gender, race or which side of the grave one resides on, Conan simply fails to meet the prerequisites for Witch King harming or hindering.

[EvilElitest]

As the title say, who would win.

Battlefield: The ruined city of Osgiliath at night-time.

Witch-king's assets:
Magical powers
Two thousand Morannon Orcs
His mace
His Morgul-blade
Armour
Fell beast
Any other stuff he has is the books.

Alright a few questions

1) When you say other stuff in the books, what do you mean?
2) Does he get his horse?
3) Does he get his his eight bros
4) How about his army of doom that he uses to attack Minis Tirith (many thousands, most likely in the hundred thousand range)
5) Sword?
6) Magic?
7) Regeneration powers?breath
8)Bow
9) Fear/black Breath?
10) As in the sub type of orcs, one who aren't good in light but are still bigger and stronger than normal orcs? From the movie?
11) How about the Morgul Goblins/orcs


Conan's assets:
A bastard sword
A shield
An axe
A bow
Heavy chain-mail armour
A bunch of aquilonian soldiers, about five hundred.
A belt that give Conan some resistance against the sorcery of the Witch King and lets him harm the WK.

1) I don't know anything about aquilonians, weapons, armor, powers?
2) Magic sword?
3) Is that belt cannon? Could you link it?

WK seems to have this one in the bag. Connan can't hurt him because he

1) Isn't female
2) Doesn't (I think) have a good anti undead weapon

The WK has his depression, black breath, and Fear to demoralize/take out Connon's force, he can fly around with a bow, his forces have numbers on their side (even if there are only 2,000) and aren't that crappy if your thinking of the right breed

The WK only need to stab Connon once with his knife to win, as well has having magic over fire and ice

Don't forget that he can create Barrow Wights, or other ghost like creature, through he needs time

power enhanced at night, along with his orcs


Really, the WK should have more of his forces, humans, oliphaunts, trolls, half breeds, wargs ect.


I don't know much about Connon however except that he doesn't seem to wear a shirt
from
EE

[Callista]

Conan doesn't have to kill the Witch King to defeat him.

[warty goblin]

Conan doesn't have to kill the Witch King to defeat him.

Hmm, good point. Gandalf + Glorfindel managed to defeat the Witch King without perma-killing him. On the other hand they also had to dump most of a river on his head in order to do it, and Gandalf on his own was incapable of defeating him at Weathertop.

Conan, as far as I know, lacks the power to drop rivers on people, and pretty much depends on hitting them with swords. I will point out that in the event of sword-shanking the Witch-King the following things happen:
1) Your sword breaks/melts
2) You get a raging, and ultimately fatal (unless treated) case of the Black Breath.

So unless Conan hits as hard as a river in full flood, which I doubt, whacking the Witch King won't do him much good either.

[Zenos]

1) When you say other stuff in the books, what do you mean?
Basicaly any of his abilities that I might have forgotten.
2) Does he get his horse?
He has his fell beast
3) Does he get his his eight bros
No, if not I would have called the thread Conan the Barb vs The Nazgul.
4) How about his army of doom that he uses to attack Minis Tirith (many thousands, most likely in the hundred thousand range)
I had to give Conan a fighting chance, even he gets seriously roughened up by loads and loads of bad guys.
5) Sword?
One normal one and The Morgul blade
6) Magic?
Exactly what is the question here?
7) Regeneration powers?
As long as Conan cripples him Conan can rout the orcs and get what he wants from Morgul.
8)Bow
Huh?
9) Fear/black Breath?
I would guess Conan is too badass to be terrified by the Witch King, but the Aquilonians most likely won't help him. I guess the Black Breath might affect Conan.
10) As in the sub type of orcs, one who aren't good in light but are still bigger and stronger than normal orcs? From the movie?
Basicaly orcs who guard the Black Gate, they're slightly better equipped than standard orcs.
11) How about the Morgul Goblins/orcs
Why would he have access to Moria Orcs?

1) I don't know anything about aquilonians, weapons, armor, powers?
I think of them as Fantasy equivalents of the Roman empire, but I may be wrong.
2) Magic sword?
He may get one forged for harming Angmar, like the barrow blades the Hobbits got.
3) Is that belt cannon? Could you link it?
It is in the story The People of the Black Circle.

WK seems to have this one in the bag. Connan can't hurt him because he

1) Isn't female
2) Doesn't (I think) have a good anti undead weapon
1) Easy, he gets some weapons made to fight Angmar, see above. 2)Eowyn killed the WK with a perfectly normal sword after he had been made vulnerable.

The WK has his depression, black breath, and Fear to demoralize/take out Connon's force, he can fly around with a bow, his forces have numbers on their side (even if there are only 2,000) and aren't that crappy if your thinking of the right breed
What bow are you talking about?!

The WK only need to stab Connon once with his knife to win, as well has having magic over fire and ice

Don't forget that he can create Barrow Wights, or other ghost like creature, through he needs time

power enhanced at night, along with his orcs


Really, the WK should have more of his forces, humans, oliphaunts, trolls, half breeds, wargs ect.


I don't know much about Connon however except that he doesn't seem to wear a shirt
He often wears heavy armour in the original stories, the "shirtless" scenes in other writers fiction is fanservice.
from
EE

Comments in bold.

[nothingclever]

Conan was played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and now that he is the governator of California he can ban LotR books and other materials making him invincible in his real mountain of doom.

I also believe Arnold is still in sufficient shape to rip a LotR book in half regardless of type and beat whoever played the Witch King in unarmed combat.

[Mr. Scaly]

Callos, Closet, what I meant was that Conan is physically unable to harm without this belt, which sounds kind of added on to give him a chance. Is that thing canon? And what does it do, specifically?

[EvilElitest]

Comments in bold.
Ug, i always had it when people do that. It is such a pain to respond to. Oh well, i blame you Mr. Scaly, because your a kobold.


Basicaly any of his abilities that I might have forgotten.
So lets check real quick

1) Wraith powers
2) Fear
3) despair
4) Black Breath
5) Flaming sword
6) Power over fire and ice
7) Will/Great Ring

I think thats it



He has his fell beast
Alright, horse as a back up maybe?


No, if not I would have called the thread Conan the Barb vs The Nazgul.
fair enough


I had to give Conan a fighting chance, even he gets seriously roughened up by loads and loads of bad guys
meh, fair enough, could we make it 2,000 Uruk-hai however?
'



One normal one and The Morgul blade
Alright, he uses the sword, giant mace, and can stab the Morgul blade once but that person becomes a wraith


As long as Conan cripples him Conan can rout the orcs and get what he wants from Morgul.

1) Easy, he gets some weapons made to fight Angmar, see above. 2)Eowyn killed the WK with a perfectly normal sword after he had been made vulnerable

Here is something to remember

The WK has too protections

1) The "No living man can kill me" protection
2) Even then, he has a magical shield protecting him. Only after it is broken can he be hurt. He must be stabbed by an anti undead good sword first

The Nazgul had bows when they were on their fell beasts



Why would he have access to Moria Orcs?
Morgul, not Moria. The orcs of Minis Morgul



I would guess Conan is too badass to be terrified by the Witch King, but the Aquilonians most likely won't help him. I guess the Black Breath might affect Conan.
I can see Conan shrugging of magical fear and despair (but i don't really know much about him) but the BB effects everybody who gets in contact. Isn't an insta kill


I think of them as Fantasy equivalents of the Roman empire, but I may be wrong.
hmmmm, so i'm guessing well equipted well trained humans. But still humans, Black Breath, fear, orc snipers in the night
What weapons do they often use? Roman weapons and tatics?



He may get one forged for harming Angmar, like the barrow blades the Hobbits got.
Normally in Vs. thread they only get what they cannonly have in their stories. Does he ever get a magical sword at some point?



It is in the story The People of the Black Circle
oh ok then



He often wears heavy armour in the original stories, the "shirtless" scenes in other writers fiction is fanservice.
Oh ok then. Sorry i've never really read his stories. Is there any place were we can get info?

I'd say WK, unles Connon has more tricks up his sleeve. If the WK focuses his efforts on destorying Conann's forces from the air, and hte orcs use night to their advantage, he can then swarm Connan. Even Conan will have trouble with half a thousand orcs while fighting the WK.

from
EE
Edit

Also does he have to destroy the WK peremently or just his body being destroyed?

[TehJhu]

Conan was played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and now that he is the governator of California he can ban LotR books and other materials making him invincible in his real mountain of doom.

I also believe Arnold is still in sufficient shape to rip a LotR book in half regardless of type and beat whoever played the Witch King in unarmed combat.

This thread is over.

[Rutee]

Why do people keep reverting to the prophecy? Prophecies are written with the original story in mind, for obvious reasons. As a versus thread isn't part of the original storyline, it isn't in the prophecy's original scope anyway.

Notwithstanding that all it takes is semantic jobbing if you really want to play that way.

"I can only meet my end at the sea!"
* Stabs with a sword that has the word 'Sea' engraved on it.

In this case..
"Only something that isn't a man can defeat me!"
* Conan picks up an Orc, bludgeons the WK with it

[EvilElitest]

Why do people keep reverting to the prophecy? Prophecies are written with the original story in mind, for obvious reasons. As a versus thread isn't part of the original storyline, it isn't in the prophecy's original scope anyway.

Notwithstanding that all it takes is semantic jobbing if you really want to play that way.

"I can only meet my end at the sea!"
* Stabs with a sword that has the word 'Sea' engraved on it.

In this case..
"Only something that isn't a man can defeat me!"
* Conan picks up an Orc, bludgeons the WK with it

1) I think it is because it acts as some sort of special protection, but personally i've come to down play it
2) The quote is that "No living man can hinder me" actually
3) Even so your right, there are a lot of loop holes
from
EE

[GoC]

1) I think it is because it acts as some sort of special protection, but personally i've come to down play it
2) The quote is that "No living man can hinder me" actually
3) Even so your right, there are a lot of loop holes
from
EE
IMO prophecies only work in their original universe. Otherwise Varsuvius would be undefeatable in vs. threads because (s)he is destined to get ultimate arcane power.
I think WK's statement: "No living man may hinder me!" was paraphrased from the original prophesy

[EvilElitest]

IMO prophecies only work in their original universe. Otherwise Varsuvius would be undefeatable in vs. threads because (s)he is destined to get ultimate arcane power.
I think WK's statement: "No living man may hinder me!" was paraphrased from the original prophesy

1) Pretty much yeah
2) does he ever right the orginal prophecy, because i think Glorfindal paraphrases it as well
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

Alright, I find this an interesting topic... but Conan stands not even a slim chance against a entity like the Witch King...

Alright, the one thing I can't seem to get here is what is the genre... Is this a mano el mano battle, or are we going armies... If we're going armies, then why the heck can't the other nazgul be involved? They are, in fact, a part of his army.

On the whole 1v1 battle, WK wins. Magical protection, cursed weaponry which can either turn people into wraiths or kill them (never really found out which), and the bonus of fear and the black breath...
Conan, from what I heard, is a man. Sure, he is a heavy duty, awesome, kick ass barbarian, but still he is a man... The WK's prophecy works against that. And even if he found a belt of gender alteration, he needs a sword of anti undead or a sword of extreme power overall (I believe both could work), and that is something he is lacking in. Fear may not be as effective on him as a normal man, but I doubt that even Conan is invulnerable to fear.
Needless to say, in a one on one challenge issued to him, it would be dumb to take the gauntlet and slap the Witch King's face in response.

In armies... well, it depends on the setting, I suppose. But... if we have the WK on a fell beast... Conans men would likely flee, and the fell beast would be picking its teeth from its helping of Conan bbq ribcages. But as for the orcs... well, a fact I picked up from EE, they are almost all master archers, and that doesn't work in with Conans infantry. Fire arrows, too, and all that... even Gothmog, the guy with the deformed face who spits on pieces of buildings launched at him. We are also talking an army the size of which could only be outmatched by Mordor itself, and no matter how skilled Conan's soldiers are, they have little chance against those numbers.
Histroical reference to further my point: Spartacus and his gladiators, when they rebelled against the Romans, were trained far more effectively than the armies of the Roman, yet they were wiped out by the numbers of the romans and their tactics, despite having avoided them for two years.
And we are still involving the WK's bonus' from the 1v1 type, so...

Even if Conan finds a location which can easily defend against ground soldiers, WK can overcome them. Even if Conan holes up in a castle or fortress, the army of Minas Morgul will penetrate the defences. And if Conan has the luck to come across a troll in the WK's army... hes mincemeat.
You are pitting a very big villain of one the the worlds most powerful fantasy against the protagonist of... well... a very much less magical setting...
WK wins... thats it.

[EvilElitest]

While i'm still in shock of being on agreement with Steven the Lich on like four threads in a row now, he raises a good point in terms of nerfing. I admit i don't know much about Conan, so he might have more super powers of which i am not aware, but if the WK has his full army he owns

In this nerfed contest i think WG would still win, but i admit i don't know Conan

Nit pick, orcs are great archers at night.
from
EE

[GoC]

You are pitting a very big villain of one the the worlds most powerfulest fantasies against the protagonist of... well... a very much less magical setting...
Most powerful fantasy setting...
Yep, definitely. Nevermind D&D (and all the webcomics based on it), Discworld and just about every other fantasy setting out there...

I don't know who would win but I know Cohan the barbarian could beat them both!:smallbiggrin:

I agree with EE. *gasp* If WK gets his whole army then he'll probably win.

[EvilElitest]

Most powerful fantasy setting...
Yep, definitely. Nevermind D&D (and all the webcomics based on it), Discworld and just about every other fantasy setting out there...

Watch out for Generizlations. ME could give some D&D a run for its money, through that is situational

Discworld is a cometic world by nature so you really can't count it

Exalted and as i found out to my chagrin, OWoD yes, but not every single one.



I don't know who would win but I know Cohan the barbarian could beat them both!:smallbiggrin:

Isn't Cohan low magic?
from
EE

[GoC]

Watch out for Generizlations. ME could give some D&D a run for its money, through that is situational
Tell that to Emperor Tippy.


Discworld is a cometic world by nature so you really can't count it
Read Sourcery, then come back and tell me ME would stand a chance.


Exalted and as i found out to my chagrin, OWoD yes, but not every single one.
Granted. There are a couple of fantasy settings I know of that are lower powered but ME is generally considered the iconic low-magic setting.


Isn't Cohan low magic?
from
EE
He's from Discworld.

[Rutee]

You are pitting a very big villain of one the the worlds most powerfulest fantasies against the protagonist of... well... a very much less magical setting...

Conan is definitely lower magic.. but you're deluding yourself if you think LotR is very high powered compared to most fantasy literature. I forget who put it this way, but if Gandalf were a DnD wizard past level 13 (Or was it 15?), he could have handled the entire thing with so much less effort, as a simple Mind Blank would handle the Ring's compulsions.

[EvilElitest]

Tell that to Emperor Tippy.



Sure thing, remember D&D has to follow the logic of its own setting. Tippy could destroy middle earh



Read Sourcery, then come back and tell me ME would stand a chance.
The setting is however cometic and isn't suitable for vs. threads


Granted. There are a couple of fantasy settings I know of that are lower powered but ME is generally considered the classic low-magic setting.

Considered but it is not so. In reality it is more of a Classic mid magic setting



He's from Discworld.

Sorry, Conan
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Isn't Cohan low magic?
from
EE

Not...neccesarily. It's low magic in the sense it's not everywhere meaning normal people who routinely survive against it are really special and/or really smart (which applies to Conan in both cases, he's a barbarian but hardly a stupid one.) but when magic DOES happen it's generally very powerful magic...if that makes any sense. And aside from that despite having no magical talent of his own (not counting any magical gear he does get, and he does pick that sort of stuff up now and then) he defeats the most powerful black sorcerer of his setting.

Also, and this is important, does Conan even get any of his generals or anything?

[Rutee]

Callos: I think GoC was referring to Cohan, who is apparently a Discworld sendoff of Conan

[warty goblin]

Why do people keep reverting to the prophecy? Prophecies are written with the original story in mind, for obvious reasons. As a versus thread isn't part of the original storyline, it isn't in the prophecy's original scope anyway.

Notwithstanding that all it takes is semantic jobbing if you really want to play that way.

"I can only meet my end at the sea!"
* Stabs with a sword that has the word 'Sea' engraved on it.

In this case..
"Only something that isn't a man can defeat me!"
* Conan picks up an Orc, bludgeons the WK with it

To be perfectly honest, I'm reasonably sure that it's not the prophesy doing the actual protection, but rather some sort of explicit arcane protection granted to the Witch King by dint of being Lord of the Nazgul and generally evil and undead. He pretty clearly knows about it for one thing, and it strikes me as unlikely that whomever made the prophesy at the fall of Angband (their name escapes me atm) sent him a note: "Dear Witch King, try to avoid fighting chicks and hobbits, 'cause there's this prophesy that says they are gonna kill you."

To rephrase this slightly, imagine the Witch King is a tank, and somebody says "I predict that he will not be killed by handheld non-explosive firearms." That is a prophesy, but the prophesy is not what is protecting the tank from getting destroyed by assault rifles, that's the 50+mm of armor plating. That's in effect all that the prophesy about the Witch King says as well, it's an explicit statement that certain things just won't hurt him, not that Eowyn will kill him at Pelennor Fields at such and such an hour of the day. "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" is the exact line. Now if the 'prophesy' said that Eowyn, only Eowyn and nobody but Eowyn would kill him, then I'd completely agree, it's story line specific, but it's generally open wording and the general knowledge everybody has of it suggests, at least to me, that this is just another one of his powers, and not something ordained by Fate.

[EvilElitest]

Not...neccesarily. It's low magic in the sense it's not everywhere meaning normal people who routinely survive against it are really special and/or really smart (which applies to Conan in both cases, he's a barbarian but hardly a stupid one.) but when magic DOES happen it's generally very powerful magic...if that makes any sense. And aside from that despite having no magical talent of his own (not counting any magical gear he does get, and he does pick that sort of stuff up now and then) he defeats the most powerful black sorcerer of his setting.

Hmmmmmm, interesting. I wish i had details on the nature of the magic and how he defeated these guys



Also, and this is important, does Conan even get any of his generals or anything?
Could the WK get his?
from
EE
edit
WG is a genuis

[GoC]

Sure thing, remember D&D has to follow the logic of its own setting. Tippy could destroy middle earh
Heh, Tippy could destroy anything short of the DBZ world (and maybe even that).


The setting is however cometic and isn't suitable for vs. threads
The setting in general is but Sourcery itself isn't (and really clashes with the other books but bear with me).


Considered but it is not so. In reality it is more of a Classic mid magic setting
I suppose that depends on how we define magic levels...
It's more a "not very visible or flashy magic" setting. That's the normal definition of low-magic.


Sorry, Conan
from
EE
Agreed that Conan is a low-magic setting.

[EvilElitest]

Heh, Tippy could destroy anything short of the DBZ world (and maybe even that).

However Tippy doesn't control WotC, and so ME could have a chance against D&D


The setting in general is but Sourcery itself isn't (and really clashes with the other books but bear with me).


The setting man, the setting.


I suppose that depends on how we define magic levels...
It's more a "not very visible or flashy magic" setting. That's the normal definition of low-magic.

Flashy doesn't equal powerful.



Agreed that Conan is a low-magic setting.

Apperently through i have no first hand experience
from
EE

[Rutee]

To be perfectly honest, I'm reasonably sure that it's not the prophesy doing the actual protection, but rather some sort of explicit arcane protection granted to the Witch King by dint of being Lord of the Nazgul and generally evil and undead.
So you think it's more likely that this arcane protection was explicitly written to contain a hole, and they never bothered pointing out to the guy that Hay, there's some pretty noteworthy holes in your armor..

..Then it is that he simply was being freaking arrogant?

I'm sure he had some arcane protections; WT made that clear in the past. But they are very probably not specific protections that make him undefeatable by Man, simply more general protections that ward him; Protections that make him insurmountable to an ordinary man. These protections were then, in the LotR universe, pierced by a Hobbit, then the pierced protections were taken advantage of by a woman. That doesn't mean they're insurmountable by other characters from other universes (Or indeed, even within the same one).

[EvilElitest]

So you think it's more likely that this arcane protection was explicitly written to contain a hole, and they never bothered pointing out to the guy that Hay, there's some pretty noteworthy holes in your armor..

..Then it is that he simply was being freaking arrogant?

considering he doesn't control his own powers so much as the rings do, which follow the all might powers of plot magic, yes.
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Callos: I think GoC was referring to Cohan, who is apparently a Discworld sendoff of Conan

I know he was, I was referring to Conan.


As for how magic works in Conan world...I'm...not too clear myself. It seems a combination of willpower, chanting (spell like chanting), and having magical artifacts that'll let you use above willpower to effect changes. Depending on who your looking at and where they come from.

As for how he beat them...not too clear on the specifics of how he got to the point where he was able to, but he most likely ended up stabbing them more then a few times. Like I said, not too clear on how he got himself into the position where he could do said stabbing and have it be effective.

[EvilElitest]

I know he was, I was referring to Conan.


As for how magic works in Conan world...I'm...not too clear myself. It seems a combination of willpower, chanting (spell like chanting), and having magical artifacts that'll let you use above willpower to effect changes. Depending on who your looking at and where they come from.

As for how he beat them...not too clear on the specifics of how he got to the point where he was able to, but he most likely ended up stabbing them more then a few times. Like I said, not too clear on how he got himself into the position where he could do said stabbing and have it be effective.

hmm, thanks, it seems to be very low magic. Kinda like ME but less combat ready maybe? So magic users are that impressive in such a world.
from
EE

[GoC]

However Tippy doesn't control WotC, and so ME could have a chance against D&D
Druid 13+ can destroy any ME army. Noone in ME can do that (apart from some of the Valar I suppose. Takes them longer though).


The setting man, the setting.
Hmm...
Agreed.


Flashy doesn't equal powerful.
It is, however, more or less the only way of determining power.

[EvilElitest]

Conan is definitely lower magic.. but you're deluding yourself if you think LotR is very high powered compared to most fantasy literature. I forget who put it this way, but if Gandalf were a DnD wizard past level 13 (Or was it 15?), he could have handled the entire thing with so much less effort, as a simple Mind Blank would handle the Ring's compulsions.

Gandalf would follow D&D wizard rules

Anyways, ME is low mid magic normally



Druid 13+ can destroy any ME army. Noone in ME can do that.

Army of Agband. Army of the Elves in the First age nope


Also flashy doesn't equal power, what the magic actually does equals power

from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

hmm, thanks, it seems to be very low magic. Kinda like ME but less combat ready maybe? So magic users are that impressive in such a world.
from
EE

By less combat ready do you mean the magic is less combat ready or the people are? Because the people are always combat ready there and, once again, depending on where your are at the magic users are more readily available. Stygia for instance has more magic users then most of the other countries and is consequently a major power player. Also, generally speaking, most magic has destructive potential and is usually used for that. (You wouldn't think a guy who can only create illusions could take out an entire fortress, including some of Conan's elite guard who are trained to resist such things, but there you go)

I'm really not the best person to describe Conan-verse though.

[EvilElitest]

By less combat ready do you mean the magic is less combat ready or the people are? Because the people are always combat ready there and, once again, depending on where your are at the magic users are more readily available. Stygia for instance has more magic users then most of the other countries and is consequently a major power player. Also, generally speaking, most magic has destructive potential and is usually used for that. (You wouldn't think a guy who can only create illusions could take out an entire fortress, including some of Conan's elite guard who are trained to resist such things, but there you go)

I'm really not the best person to describe Conan-verse though.

NO i mean if its rituals or incantations that take a lot of time it must be hard to use in a fight when a dude with a sword is charging at you
from
EE

[GoC]

Army of Agband. Army of the Elves in the First age nope
I said noone.:smallbiggrin:


Also flashy doesn't equal power, what the magic actually does equals power
Very true. However if you were shoved into our world would you rather have Sauron's powers or the powers of a 20th level psion (assuming unlimited use)?
There's also the question of how the two different universe spells interact. Can Sauron's corruption defeat Hallow spell? What's Sauron's fort save? Is he immune to stunning?
So many questions and no way of getting an answer. Thus we determine Sauron's fort save by looking at the effects he's survived and comparing the most powerful looking (AKA flashy) one to approximately equivalent looking powers in D&D.

[nothingclever]

All I know is that Conan slays giant giants in some of his stories.

The best one I ever picked up was a full color comic book style of one called Conan: Frost Giant's Daughter. The story was awesome and simple.

All I had to do was flip through the pages and watch the eviscerations and death count rise. It went something like this:

Conan: *Exploring mindlessly, find hawt frost giant girl*
Girl: Teehee I'm seducing you.
Conan: *rapes girl*
Giant Father: *Rawr I'm angry*
Conan: *Lawl newb, I'm Conan*
Giant Father: GRRR I"MMA CRUSH YOU
Conan: *eviscerates* LAWL KILLED UR DAD *wanders around some more*
Traveling soldiers or whatever: *capture and imprison Conan*
Conan: LAWL I JUST GOT CAUGHT SO I THEY CAN BRING ME TO A PLACE WITH LOTS OF PEOPLE TO KILL SO I DON"T HAVE TO FIND THEM MYSELF
Conan: *breaks out and eviscerates everyone* LAWL I OWN BRB MINDLESSLY EXPLORING

Conan wins because he has better visuals and stories.
His comics are so good I'm going to download 3 gigs worth right now.

[EvilElitest]

I said noone.:smallbiggrin:

At full power? Depends on the army but some of them yeah



Sauron by far, i'd get immortatily, and more corruption and i can alter the nature of creation itself.

[QUOTE]
So many questions and no way of getting an answer. Thus we determine Sauron's fort save by looking at the effects he's survived and comparing the most powerful looking (AKA flashy) one to approximately equivalent looking powers in D&D.

Why would we convert it to D&D through? They systems are easily convertible
j
And aren't we getting somewhat off topic here
from
EE

[nothingclever]

Soon I'll have all of the Conan comics which are based on the books and I'll be able to read them tomorrow and tell everyone what Conan's strengths are.

[GoC]

At full power? Depends on the army but some of them yeah
Any examples?


Sauron by far, i'd get immortatily, and more corruption and i can alter the nature of creation itself.
The nature of creation? What do you mean by that?
I'd personally prefer this:
# Destiny Dissonance: Your dissonant touch sickens a foe.
Precognition: Gain +2 insight bonus to one roll.
# Clairvoyant Sense: See and hear a distant location.
Object Reading A: Learn details about an object’s previous owner.
Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions: You can find out about an area’s past.
# Escape Detection: You become difficult to detect with clairsentience powers.
Fate Link A: You link the fates of two targets.
# Anchored Navigation A: Establish a mishap-free teleport beacon.
Remote Viewing X: See, hear, and potentially interact with subjects at a distance.
# Clairtangent Hand A: Emulate far hand at a distance.
Second Chance: Gain a reroll.
# Precognition, Greater: Gain +4 insight bonus to one roll.
# Fate of One: Reroll any roll you just failed.
# Hypercognition: You can deduce almost anything.
# Metafaculty X: You learn details about any one creature.
This:
1. Charm, Psionic A: Makes one person your friend.
Mindlink A: You forge a limited mental bond with another creature.
2. Aversion A: Subject has aversion you specify.
Brain Lock A: Subject cannot move or take any mental actions.
Read Thoughts: Detect surface thoughts of creatures in range.
Suggestion, Psionic A: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.
3. Crisis of Breath A: Disrupt subject’s breathing.
Empathic Transfer, Hostile A: Your touch transfers your hurt to another.
False Sensory Input A: Subject sees what isn’t there.
4. Dominate, Psionic A: Control target telepathically.
Mindlink, Thieving A: Borrow knowledge of a subject’s power.
Modify Memory, Psionic: Changes 5 minutes of subject’s memories.
Schism: Your partitioned mind can manifest lower level powers.
5. Metaconcert A: Mental concert of two or more increases the total power of the participants.
Mind Probe: You discover the subject’s secret thoughts.
6. Mind Switch A, X: You switch minds with another.
7. Crisis of Life A: Stop subject’s heart.
8. Mind Seed X: Subject slowly becomes you.
9. Mind Switch, True X: A permanent brain swap.
Psychic Chirurgery X: You repair psychic damage or impart knowledge of new powers.
And this:
1. Burst: Gain +10 ft. to speed this round.
Detect Teleportation A: Know when teleportation powers are used in close range.
2. Dimension Swap A: You and ally or two allies switch positions.
Levitate, Psionic: Subject moves up and down at your direction.
3. Astral Caravan A: You lead astral traveler-enabled group to a planar destination.
4. Dimensional Anchor, Psionic: Bars extra dimensional movement.
Dismissal, Psionic: Forces a creature to return to its native plane.
Fly, Psionic: You fly at a speed of 60 ft.
5. Baleful Teleport A: Destructive teleport deals 9d6 damage.
Teleport, Psionic: Instantly transports you as far as 100 miles/level.
Teleport Trigger: Predetermined event triggers teleport.
6. Banishment, Psionic A: Banishes extraplanar creatures.
7. Dream Travel A: Travel to other places through dreams.
Ethereal Jaunt, Psionic: Become ethereal for 1 round/level.
8. Time Hop, Mass A: Willing subjects hop forward in time.
9. Teleportation Circle, Psionic: Circle teleports any creatures inside to designated spot.
Time Regression X: Relive the last round.
Are you serious?

[warty goblin]

So you think it's more likely that this arcane protection was explicitly written to contain a hole, and they never bothered pointing out to the guy that Hay, there's some pretty noteworthy holes in your armor..



Yes and no, the difference being that I'm fairly sure that the Witch King knew about the vulnerability of his magical protections. Note his reaction right after Eowyn reveals herself to be a woman:
"The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt." (page 823 of my combined edition, it's near the beginning of The Battle of Pelennor Fields)

Arrogance would be completely ignoring the possibility of being able to be killed by a woman, which, given his reaction, was obviously a consideration he had made. I mean, if he is Mr. Arrogant, he's not going to go hesitating before recklessly attacking, secure in the (false) knowledge that no human, regardless of sex, can possibly harm him.

Now he does keep fighting, but only because he can be killed by a woman, not because he will be. To go back to my tank metaphor, this is like not retreating from a couple dudes with RPGs, even though they can damage the tank, they might miss, or they might be killed before they can fire them, and so on.

Hence I stand by my earlier conclusion, that no dude with a sword, regardless of how good he is with it, can defeat the Witch King. Hell, Aragorn can't do it, and neither can Gandalf on his own- and Gandalf would (technically) be able to circumvent the Witch King's protections since he's not human. Even if the sword-dude hits him, that's still a win for our gender confused undead, because sword-dude is out a weapon, more or less incapacitated and will be dead within three days.

[EvilElitest]

Any examples?

Gandalf at full true power vs. Rohan=win



Are you serious?
I can create my own races without losing anything (thanks to the ring) and literally spawn armies. I'm immortal, corrupting and can turn my allies into wraiths. Sauron in our world would cause pain and chaos in the long run
from
EE

[GoC]

Hence I stand by my earlier conclusion, that no dude with a sword, regardless of how good he is with it, can defeat the Witch King.
Careful with such statements. Are you certain no guy with a sword can defeat WK?

[Rutee]

Yes and no, the difference being that I'm fairly sure that the Witch King knew about the vulnerability of his magical protections. Note his reaction right after Eowyn reveals herself to be a woman:
Didn't she stand unaffected by his presence and whatnot, /specifically after having his protections stripped by the Barrow Blade/? Thereby giving him extra reason to hold doubt?

"Oh shi-, this girl isn't affected by my usual tricks."
Or
"Oh shi-, my protections just got stripped, /any schmuck could theoretically hurt me"

It could merely have been dramatically appropriate doubt.

What enchantments could the Barrow Blade have possibly been breaking, that would matter, if not a general "I can't really be hurt" enchantment?


And why, if he had such a specific enchantment, would WT have not bothered, ever, to elaborate on this at length, as he has on every other LotR question when asked, especially considering this particular question /has come up/?

[GoC]

Gandalf at full true power vs. Rohan=win
:smallconfused:
I don't remember Gandalf fighting Rohan.
Wouldn't he just get shot full of arrows and die?


I can create my own races without losing anything (thanks to the ring) and literally spawn armies. I'm immortal, corrupting and can turn my allies into wraiths. Sauron in our world would cause pain and chaos in the long run
from
EE
Takes many centuries though.
By that time I've got epic spellcasting and have created all sorts of cool races.:smallcool:
And I don't need armies because I'll be borrowing yours.:smalltongue:

Rutee: He was hit by the barrow blade after his dramatic pause.

[EvilElitest]

Didn't she stand unaffected by his presence and whatnot, /specifically after having his protections stripped by the Barrow Blade/? Thereby giving him extra reason to hold doubt?

"Oh shi-, this girl isn't affected by my usual tricks."
Or
"Oh shi-, my protections just got stripped, /any schmuck could theoretically hurt me"

Wrong actually. what happened is this

Wk kills Theoden
Eowyen challenges him
He threatens her
She reveals her female powers
he attacks with his steed
She kills the Fell beast
He Breaks her arm
he is shanked by miget
Stabbed in the face



What enchantments could the Barrow Blade have possibly been breaking, that would matter, if not a general "I can't really be hurt" enchantment?

Actually it was for the sole purpose of destroying beings like the WK
So any good anti undead weapon



And why, if he had such a specific enchantment, would WT have not bothered, ever, to elaborate on this at length, as he has on every other LotR question when asked, especially considering this particular question /has come up/?
Is this even relevant?
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

:smallconfused:
I don't remember Gandalf fighting Rohan.
Wouldn't he just get shot full of arrows and die?

In theory, gandalf at full power



Takes many centuries though.
By that time I've got epic spellcasting and have created all sorts of cool races.:smallcool:
And I don't need armies because I'll be borrowing yours.:smalltongue:
[/QUTOE]
Except you can't create life and you have limits
Yoru also only level 20

And mind control Sauorn. Yeah, you do that

[QUOTE]
Rutee: He was hit by the barrow blade after his dramatic pause.
And defeating Eowyn
from
EE

[Rutee]

Rutee: He was hit by the barrow blade after his dramatic pause.

Fair enough. He still has someone unaffected by his normal semi-trump cards.


Takes many centuries though.
By that time I've got epic spellcasting and have created all sorts of cool races.
And I don't need armies because I'll be borrowing yours.
Why would you need centuries when you can Mind Rape Prismatic Dragons after Gating them in?

[GoC]

In theory, gandalf at full power

Wouldn't he just get shot full of arrows and die?


Except you can't create life and you have limits
Yoru also only level 20
In 100 years I could gain a level and create life. And there are many epic level characters in most D&D worlds.
And why bother when I can just use my position as world ruler (thanks to knowing everything, teleportation circles and mind control) to make scientists research genetic engineering.:smallcool:


And mind control Sauorn. Yeah, you do that
Or I could mind control his commanders and just capture Sauron. Your way's good too I suppose.

[EvilElitest]

In 100 years I could gain a level and create life. And there are many epic level characters in most D&D worlds.
And why bother when I can just use my position as world ruler (thanks to knowing everything, teleportation circles and mind control) to make scientists research genetic engineering.:smallcool:


Or I could mind control his commanders and just capture Sauron. Your way's good too I suppose.
What world are we in?


Anyways, its seems that book Conan is smarter tham comic conan, so what are we going with
from
EE

[GoC]

What world are we in?
Good question.

[warty goblin]

Fair enough. He still has someone unaffected by his normal semi-trump cards.


True, but that even of itself is no reason to flee. By that logic every time two armies got within extreme bowshot of each other they'd make tracks the other direction. And the Witch-King wasn't well and truly screwed over until after he got midget shanked, an event which, I think we can safely say, had a low enough probability to be reasonably excluded from his calculations.

Also running away would create something of a, ah, bad example. I mean really, he's the big bad second in command leader of the army, out killing kings and scaring the beejezus out of people, trying to recover his army from being randomly and unforseeably flanked after a sudden and completely unpredictable and hostile weather change, and he's supposed go "Wait, your a girl? Damn, that's inconvenient. Hey, I'm gonna, uh, go and kill something else now. Oy! Orcs! If you and Lurgash wouldn't mind dealing with the chick? Gee, thanks a ton, and if you ever mention a word of this, I'll be forced to 'get creative' when it comes to punishment. Remember Frank? Yeah, I was feeling a bit inventive that day, but you breathe a word, and I'll turn into a regular Archemides of suffering. Yes there will be a screw involved. No I don't know where it will be inserted yet. These things can't be rushed."

In fact, if we turn things around a little bit, and (humor me) cast the Witch King as the protagonist, isn't he doing something that we as an audience would usually applaud by fighting something he knows can hurt him, even though he has an army around anyway? I think there's a bit of a double standard at work here, when a hero does something like this, it's heroic, when a villian does it, it's stupid, despite being, for all intents and purposes, the same thing.

[Jerthanis]

Conan's assets:
A bastard sword
A shield
An axe
A bow
Heavy chain-mail armour
A bunch of aquilonian soldiers, about five hundred.
A belt that give Conan some resistance against the sorcery of the Witch King and lets him harm the WK.

Wait... you give Conan armor? How is this supposed to be fair if Conan has armor? If he were naked with a shortsword this might be fair, but with armor and that belt, there's no way the Witch King can stop him.

Let me explain my reasoning. Robert E. Howard wrote in the same era as H.P. Lovecraft. In fact, they were good friends, and they both included the same sorts of Cosmic Beings from beyond the capacity for human understanding. These creatures who drove men to madness simply by being seen. Anyone who has played Call of Cthulhu knows that meeting one of these means madness and death if you don't run fast enough. Conan, however, masters his fear and cleaves through them when he meets them in his stories. Conan beats gods in footraces over their natural terrain, he slays twenty armored men in his smallclothes with a cerimonial axe, he survives being thrown torchless and weaponless into the pits of hell.

The only defense the Witch King could have is if his prophecy literally does protect him from all damage from a male source, but this contest specifically gives Conan the means of hurting the Witch King. Without the belt... meh, maybe WK gets it, but don't ever underestimate Conan.

[Anteros]

Not to mention that Conan doesn't have to kill WK to win. That's the problem with being immortal. You're more than welcome to try to enjoy eternity life...chopped up into little bitty pieces.

[Pyre]

Actually, I believe she was able to kill him becuase of her bloodline, not her gender.

[EvilElitest]

Not to mention that Conan doesn't have to kill WK to win. That's the problem with being immortal. You're more than welcome to try to enjoy eternity life...chopped up into little bitty pieces.

He can't hurt him however, there lies the problem

Ands i don't think there was any reference to Eowyn's gender, other wise Aragorn could kill the WK
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

Actually, I believe she was able to kill him becuase of her bloodline, not her gender.

If that is so, Conan lacks the anti-undead or supernatural sword, and the bloodline. There hardly is a way around the WKs small prophecy and barrier.


Without the belt... meh, maybe WK gets it, but don't ever underestimate Conan.
Don't underestimate the WK. What powers does the belt grant? Strength? Yeah... WK has the Morgul blade... How well does Conan hold up against a magical disease that will either kill him or turn him into a wraith? He is only human, kick ass human, but still human.


Conan's assets:
A bastard sword
A shield
An axe
A bow
Heavy chain-mail armour
A bunch of aquilonian soldiers, about five hundred.
A belt that give Conan some resistance against the sorcery of the Witch King and lets him harm the WK.
Mortal weapons do deal plenty of damage to incorpral undead lords these days.
500 soldiers? Unless they are elite and well trained, I don't think they could survive against an army of (just a guess) 10'000 orcs or more. The WK doesn't even give a care about their lives, and he would sacrifice almost any number to elmininate opposition.
A belt that offers some resistance. Emphasis on that "some". Conan is, to the best of my understanding, a low magic setting. LotRs may be low magic too, but it is only low in quantity and high in quality, while Conan lacks both. Unless the belt was granted by the gods, its a level 10 item vs. an enchant only broken by holy magic (or just powerful magic in general. Mathematically and logically, it makes no sense.

but with armor and that belt, there's no way the Witch King can stop him.
I was unaware that armor of any kind could help against perhaps a swarm of arrows.

Alright, as far as all visible, Conan is not properly equipped to fight a being of such power as the WK, who has more assets that work for him (including a mount... a flying mount). Unless you care to elaborate more on Conans world, I am unconvinced that he still stands a chance against the WK.
PS: Does the belt grant immunity to shanking from a knife/sword (not sure which) which could bring even the mightiest human to his knees and his creator in days at least, and severely weaken them. I doubt that.

[GoC]

If that is so, Conan lacks the anti-undead or supernatural sword, and the bloodline. There hardly is a way around the WKs small prophecy and barrier.
That's just a theory some random guy threw out without backing up.


Don't underestimate the WK. What powers does the belt grant? Strength? Yeah... WK has the Morgul blade... How well does Conan hold up against a magical disease that will either kill him or turn him into a wraith? He is only human, kick ass human, but still human.
A couple of things you should include:
A. He has to land a decent hit first.
B. It takes a while to act.


Mortal weapons do deal plenty of damage to incorpral undead lords these days.
I've got a post further up in this thread regarding that. Care to read it?


LotRs may be low magic too, but it is only low in quantity and high in quality, while Conan lacks both.
Callos_DeTerran says the opposite in post 25. Perhaps you should debate this with her?
I'm probably going to regret this but: What do you mean by quality?

[EvilElitest]

That's just a theory some random guy threw out without backing up.

The WK prophecy? What are you talking abotu?


A couple of things you should include:
A. He has to land a decent hit first.
B. It takes a while to act.
He only needs to hit him period. And then stay away. If the heart it is instant.


I've got a post further up in this thread regarding that. Care to read it?
I've countered you further up. Care to read that:smallwink:


I'm probably going to regret this but: What do you mean by quality?

LotRs magic is actually pretty powerful, if not common or wide spread
from
EE

[Rutee]

A belt that offers some resistance. Emphasis on that "some". Conan is, to the best of my understanding, a low magic setting. LotRs may be low magic too, but it is only low in quantity and high in quality, while Conan lacks both. Unless the belt was granted by the gods, its a level 10 item vs. an enchant only broken by holy magic (or just powerful magic in general. Mathematically and logically, it makes no sense.

It's low in both, compared to high magic worlds. Remember, the standard DnD wizard is capable of better Magic then Gandalf, before even reaching level 6 spells.

[EvilElitest]

It's low in both, compared to high magic worlds. Remember, the standard DnD wizard is capable of better Magic then Gandalf, before even reaching level 6 spells.

the adverage wizard isn't a good with all do respect
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

You know...what's to keep WK from stabbing Conan then flying off to let the evil blade's magic do its thing while his horde beat the tar out of the badly outnumbered humans?

[Rutee]

He has to outfight Conan to do that, no?

[EvilElitest]

He has to outfight Conan to do that, no?

And that hinders him how........
from
EE

[GoC]

The WK prophecy? What are you talking abotu?
You're deliberately mis-understanding me. Steven the lich even bolded the part you're supposed to read.


He only needs to hit him period. And then stay away. If the heart it is instant.
Hmm...
I thought there was a time limit. I agree with Mr. Scaly.:smalltongue:


I've countered you further up. Care to read that:smallwink:
Not a good enough counter I'm afraid.


LotRs magic is actually pretty powerful, if not common or wide spread
from
EE
That question was not addressed to you.

[EvilElitest]

you're deliberately mis-understanding me. Steven the lich even bolded the part you're supposed to read.

And i've already addressed that last page, because the blood line has nothing to do with hurting the WK, its the gender


Hmm...
I thought there was a time limit. I agree with Mr. Scaly.:smalltongue:


There is, note i said it was instant if in the heart


Not a good enough counter I'm afraid.
good enough to keep you from countering it



That question was not addressed to you.
And yet here i am answering
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Ah, sweet agreement...

Anywho, on to the 500 men. What kind of fortifications is this whole battle taking place in? I'd hope that it's not a Helm's Deep type of place because it's already been done with the orcs winning, but pretty much anywhere else the humans will get swarmed.

[EvilElitest]

Ah, sweet agreement...

Anywho, on to the 500 men. What kind of fortifications is this whole battle taking place in? I'd hope that it's not a Helm's Deep type of place because it's already been done with the orcs winning, but pretty much anywhere else the humans will get swarmed.

It said it was in the ruins of olgiliath
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

It said it was in the ruins of olgiliath
from
EE

Ah, thank you. In that case I'm quite sure that the human soldiers are dead. The curse of being red shirts.

[EvilElitest]

Ah, thank you. In that case I'm quite sure that the human soldiers are dead. The curse of being red shirts.

Look what happened to gondor there
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Look what happened to gondor there
from
EE

So dead they be.

[EvilElitest]

So dead they be.

There were so many cool orc redshirts in that fight however
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

There were so many cool orc redshirts in that fight however
from
EE

And there are in this one. Ten thousand, if I read correctly (if not please correct me). Against a measly five hundred human warriors with few defences that have historically proven impossible to hold against overwhelming numbers.

[EvilElitest]

And there are in this one. Ten thousand, if I read correctly (if not please correct me). Against a measly five hundred human warriors with few defences that have historically proven impossible to hold against overwhelming numbers.

actually i think it is 5,000 but still
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

actually i think it is 5,000 but still
from
EE

Eh, close enough. I think at Osgiliath the humans had more than 500 on their side anyway, so reduced numbers for all evens it out.

So then...what happens when 4000 orcs (being charitable to the humans) run into Conan? Do they peel off and attack him in ones or twos? Mob him at once? Shoot him with crossbows from a distance?

[EvilElitest]

Eh, close enough. I think at Osgiliath the humans had more than 500 on their side anyway, so reduced numbers for all evens it out.

So then...what happens when 4000 orcs (being charitable to the humans) run into Conan? Do they peel off and attack him in ones or twos? Mob him at once? Shoot him with crossbows from a distance?
The gondorians had a few thousand on their side

I think its 5,000 but lets go with 4,000. I think the orcs are going to focus on getting ride of Cohan's men, with the help of the black breath, fear, despair from the WK< along with sniping shots. Meanwhile, the remaining orcs will mostl ikely shoot him in mass. Remember, the Wk dosen't care how many men he losses as long as Cohan dies
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

It said it was in the ruins of olgiliath

Are the ruins of Olgiliath where Frodo, Sam, and Gollum got to when Faramir captured them? I wouldn't discount the 500 troops then. Impossible to know just how big Olgiliath really is (unless it is mentioned in the books) but if a straight-up fight looks...un-wise at best then Conan won't go for the straight up fight, he'll go for hit and run. Hit-and-run are a Cimmerian's greatest strength (Tactic-wise but then again Conan isn't your average Cimmerian either.), granted Gondor probably tried the same approach too so...iffy on results. I'd almost wager that Aquilonian troops are better trained (especially if they are Aquilonian's from after Conan starting his reign) then the Morannon orcs (not saying they aren't trained just probably not as much).


NO i mean if its rituals or incantations that take a lot of time it must be hard to use in a fight when a dude with a sword is charging at you

Must have missed this before so sorry for bringing up a dead point but none of the magic I've seen takes a long time. Actually it looks almost instantanous from the examples I've seen. (Set-Anubis, a priest of Ahriman (sp), and a none-to-powerful gem wizard, and the previously mentioned Ultimate Black Wizard guy) More like it can be interrupted once it's started IF you can reach the person in question, which is often difficult since they either stop you or switch to a different chant in mid chant. (Or y'know...just waving their hand and then playing ping-pong with you as the ball and the walls as paddles. Note, this actually happened to Conan)


And that hinders him how........

Conan is the best swordsman of his world. Not 'one of' or 'in the top ten'. IS. And this wasn't when he was in his prime either cause he's still in his prime. Which also makes it rather hard to stab him with the morgul dagger/sword (which ever it is) because not only does this man know how to use a sword better then anyone else he can move around like a friggin' cat while wearing his preferred armor...full spiked plate.


Callos_DeTerran says the opposite in post 25. Perhaps you should debate this with her?

I don't know if I should sit and wait for somebody to point out the obvious or do it myself...nah, I'm lazy.

Also I can't help but ask...why is this fight giving Conan Aquilonian's to fight with and not Cimmerians (his countrymen)?...I still want to know why Conan only gets five hundred men too. If he only gets five hundred then he should definitely get his countrymen.


EDIT: Correction for Mr. Scaley, there are exactly 2,000 orcs. 4-1 odds.

[GoC]

good enough to keep you from countering it
What?
Some of your "points" are simple statements without backing: "1. There is no body to disinergrate"
Others aren't real points:"5. some incorperal creatures can do those things "
Still others are just plain wierd: "Wraiths?"


And yet here i am answering
from
EE
You're not wanted.

[EvilElitest]

Are the ruins of Olgiliath where Frodo, Sam, and Gollum got to when Faramir captured them? I wouldn't discount the 500 troops then. Impossible to know just how big Olgiliath really is (unless it is mentioned in the books) but if a straight-up fight looks...un-wise at best then Conan won't go for the straight up fight, he'll go for hit and run.

Well yeah, except did you notice how ruined it was? Also the orcs are familer with the land slightly, Cohan is not


Hit-and-run are a Cimmerian's greatest strength (Tactic-wise but then again Conan isn't your average Cimmerian either.), granted Gondor probably tried the same approach too so...iffy on results. I'd almost wager that Aquilonian troops are better trained (especially if they are Aquilonian's from after Conan starting his reign) then the Morannon orcs (not saying they aren't trained just probably not as much).
I though they were Romans. Not at all hit and run .



Must have missed this before so sorry for bringing up a dead point but none of the magic I've seen takes a long time. Actually it looks almost instantanous from the examples I've seen. (Set-Anubis, a priest of Ahriman (sp), and a none-to-powerful gem wizard, and the previously mentioned Ultimate Black Wizard guy) More like it can be interrupted once it's started IF you can reach the person in question, which is often difficult since they either stop you or switch to a different chant in mid chant. (Or y'know...just waving their hand and then playing ping-pong with you as the ball and the walls as paddles. Note, this actually happened to Conan)

Wait, could you explain in more detail


Conan is the best swordsman of his world. Not 'one of' or 'in the top ten'. IS. And this wasn't when he was in his prime either cause he's still in his prime. Which also makes it rather hard to stab him with the morgul dagger/sword (which ever it is) because not only does this man know how to use a sword better then anyone else he can move around like a friggin' cat while wearing his preferred armor...full spiked plate.


I thought he had chain mail? Full plate in exchange for 1,00 men?

Anyways, i never said he wasn't good, i just think teh WK has ever Advantage, as Cohan will get weaker just be near him, due to BB




Also I can't help but ask...why is this fight giving Conan Aquilonian's to fight with and not Cimmerians (his countrymen)?...I still want to know why Conan only gets five hundred men too. If he only gets five hundred then he should definitely get his countrymen.


Don't ask me, i don't know why the WK only gets 2,000-4,000



EDIT: Correction for Mr. Scaley, there are exactly 2,000 orcs. 4-1 odds.

Wait, did we agree on more men? oh well



What?
Some of your "points" are simple statements without backing: "1. There is no body to disinergrate"
Others aren't real points:"5. some incorperal creatures can do those things "
Still others are just plain wierd: "Wraiths?"

explain



You're not wanted.
Funny they told Churchill the same thing didn't they? And napleon


from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

EDIT: Correction for Mr. Scaley, there are exactly 2,000 orcs. 4-1 odds.

Ah, my mistake then. Less horrible odds for the humans then.

With 4-1 odds then things are less bleak. I don't know why Conan only gets 500 men exactly, but Osgiliath is an entire city. Hit and run tactics would pretty much have to be their main tactic since standing and fighting just doesn't work, especially when an avatar of Death is flying overhead filling people with fear. I don't recall if the WK has to actually see the people he terrifies and hiding in the ruins would help. Of course orcs can hit and run too, and the Mordorians have been fighting in Osgiliath for years so they've got a terrain advantage.

EE, it's a moot point now but I said 4000 then because i thought the starting orc number was 5000, and figured some would get killed off to humans. (shrugs)

[EvilElitest]

Ah, my mistake then. Less horrible odds for the humans then.

[QUOTE]With 4-1 odds then things are less bleak. I don't know why Conan only gets 500 men exactly, but Osgiliath is an entire city. Hit and run tactics would pretty much have to be their main tactic since standing and fighting just doesn't work, especially when an avatar of Death is flying overhead filling people with fear. I don't recall if the WK has to actually see the people he terrifies and hiding in the ruins would help. Of course orcs can hit and run too, and the Mordorians have been fighting in Osgiliath for years so they've got a terrain advantage.

I don't know if Cohan's man are good at those tatics


EE, it's a moot point now but I said 4000 then because i thought the starting orc number was 5000, and figured some would get killed off to humans. (shrugs)
fair enough,


from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well yeah, except did you notice how ruined it was? Also the orcs are familer with the land slightly, Cohan is not.

I was just making sure I had the right place is all, granted Conan doesn't know the land and the orcs would which, if they stick to sniping (not sure why they would though..) gives them an edge.


I though they were Romans. Not at all hit and run.

Aquilonian's embody many of the aspects of Romans but are not Romans...er...It moreso covers France in the Middle Ages and the Carolingian Empire with some Roman thrown in and a dash of England (not sure from when, this info is mostly from Wiki.)

Also of note is if they are Aquilonians from after Conan's takeover (which is what I've been considering them to be...correct me if I'm wrong OP) then they wouldn't be constrained to traditional tactics as much since Conan preferred hit and run tactics when out-numbered and when in command generally lead the troops personally. In ruins, with Conan leading, your more likely to see hit-and-run from the Aquilonians then their standard mounted charge by a force of knights (the Aquilonian preferred tactic due to their well-trained knights and powerful warhorses) because that'd be suicide.


Wait, could you explain in more detail

I would if I could, believe me. Like I said, I'm not the foremost Conan expert on the boards, I'm just a forum-goer with access to the Conan wiki and who read...5? Yeah I think 5 novels for him. To try and explain though every time I've read magic being used it has usually involved a chant. Usually. Interrupting the chant generally interrupted whatever the magic was doing but there was nothing keeping whoever was chanting from just switching to a different chant in the middle of another one. The chanting comes from the Ahriman priest, gem wizard, and a witch in the woods I forgot about from before.

Other times they didn't need chants so much, like Set-Anubis using the using the Eye of Charon to create illusions. Not so much chanting, more like short phrases and sometimes he could discarded those entirely (like when he paralyzed some poor sap). Downside was needing the Eye of Charon.



I thought he had chain mail? Full plate in exchange for 1,00 men?

Anyways, i never said he wasn't good, i just think teh WK has ever Advantage, as Cohan will get weaker just be near him, due to BB

Oh, he does have chain mail, I was just giving an example is all of Conan's reflexes. He ain't no slow-poke so he can be quite nimble. Hmm...not sure if the Witch-King has every advantage but he sure does have a good deal of them. What exactly does BB do? Has anyone ever overcome it before? Some more information on BB and I could more accurately say how well Conan would do under it.





Don't ask me, i don't know why the WK only gets 2,000-4,000

Cause it's an amount of troops that people KNOW the WK has while no-ones as sure how many Conan has but 500 seems damn likely?



Wait, did we agree on more men? oh well

I was under the impression we were still using all the conditions from the OP, which meant WK only has 2,000 orcs instead of the 10,000 you and Scaley were talking about.

[EvilElitest]

I was just making sure I had the right place is all, granted Conan doesn't know the land and the orcs would which, if they stick to sniping (not sure why they would though..) gives them an edge.

It is a night however and orcs are good shots


Aquilonian's embody many of the aspects of Romans but are not Romans...er...It moreso covers France in the Middle Ages and the Carolingian Empire with some Roman thrown in and a dash of England (not sure from when, this info is mostly from Wiki.)

Also of note is if they are Aquilonians from after Conan's takeover (which is what I've been considering them to be...correct me if I'm wrong OP) then they wouldn't be constrained to traditional tactics as much since Conan preferred hit and run tactics when out-numbered and when in command generally lead the troops personally. In ruins, with Conan leading, your more likely to see hit-and-run from the Aquilonians then their standard mounted charge by a force of knights (the Aquilonian preferred tactic due to their well-trained knights and powerful warhorses) because that'd be suicide.

Would they be good at it however.


I would if I could, believe me. Like I said, I'm not the foremost Conan expert on the boards, I'm just a forum-goer with access to the Conan wiki and who read...5? Yeah I think 5 novels for him. To try and explain though every time I've read magic being used it has usually involved a chant. Usually. Interrupting the chant generally interrupted whatever the magic was doing but there was nothing keeping whoever was chanting from just switching to a different chant in the middle of another one. The chanting comes from the Ahriman priest, gem wizard, and a witch in the woods I forgot about from before.

fair enough


Other times they didn't need chants so much, like Set-Anubis using the using the Eye of Charon to create illusions. Not so much chanting, more like short phrases and sometimes he could discarded those entirely (like when he paralyzed some poor sap). Downside was needing the Eye of Charon.


damn, we need a cohan expert


Oh, he does have chain mail, I was just giving an example is all of Conan's reflexes. He ain't no slow-poke so he can be quite nimble. Hmm...not sure if the Witch-King has every advantage but he sure does have a good deal of them. What exactly does BB do? Has anyone ever overcome it before? Some more information on BB and I could more accurately say how well Conan would do under it.

The WK is a very good swordsmen, until he was midget shanked

BB effects anyone near the WK. the closer you are, the worst it is. If you attack him or touch him you become very sick, lost control of the arm you attacked with, become numb, faint, and then over hte course of three days die.

Magical healers can help

it isn't an instant effect however, it takes time to come about, as long as you don't attack him directly





Cause it's an amount of troops that people KNOW the WK has while no-ones as sure how many Conan has but 500 seems damn likely?

WK has more than 2,000 in the books at least



I was under the impression we were still using all the conditions from the OP, which meant WK only has 2,000 orcs instead of the 10,000 you and Scaley were talking about.

Fair enough
from
EE

[warty goblin]

In regards to the effects of stabbing the Witch-King, Merry's entire arm is numb pretty much right after he shanks the WK. He has his dying words with Theoden, then Eomer rides up and says his bit, after which Merry realizes his entire arm is numb and useless. Say maybe fifteen-thirty minutes tops for this, although it honestly could take far less time, it is rather hard to tell from the text. This is a hobbit, a species generally considered incrediably resistant to evil magic as well. Against a human I'd imagine it would be even faster acting, although this is again somewhat hard to tell, as the only human who stabs the Witch King is Eowyn, who just had her arm shattered and also rather wanted to die, which I would imagine lowers her resistance to the evil effects of the Witch King significantly.

Suffice to say however that I consider it extremely hard if not downright impossible to beat a foe who disarms and disables you every time you manage to hit them.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It is a night however and orcs are good shots

Wait, what? Why is it night-time to? I thought this orcs could function in sunlight, so why night? O.o This confuses me but then again I could be thinking of the wrong kind of orcs so the night-time rule might be needed.


Would they be good at it however.

That's more debatable. Hrm...not sure. Whenever the words 'stealthy' were used in Conanverse I don't really think they were applied to the Aquilonians, but hit-and-run isn't exactly stealth either. With an experienced hit-and-run tactician (Conan) and being the good leader that he is (not using fear like some people, his soldiers would genuinely lay their lives on the line for him and follows his orders explicitly even if they didn't know WHY they had to retreat to such-and-such position after the second arrow shot or second enemy slain, for example) I'd say they would be above passable at it.


damn, we need a cohan expert

Yes, yes we do. I think I've confused this debate more then helped it.


The WK is a very good swordsmen, until he was midget shanked

Being midget shanked does expose a fairly large hole in one's swordsmenship but I think a lot of swordsmen would be surprised if a midget shanked them though so I'll give you that. I'd argue Conan is the superior sword-fighter though, for to use the falliable resource that is Wiki, Conan is practically invincible in melee combat and if his back is pushed to the wall then he'll kill opponents by the score...Also in an age of general war and fighters nobody's described as being physically stronger then Conan unless they were supernatural. Again though he generally wins these fights to, they are simply harder.


BB effects anyone near the WK. the closer you are, the worst it is. If you attack him or touch him you become very sick, lost control of the arm you attacked with, become numb, faint, and then over hte course of three days die.

Magical healers can help

it isn't an instant effect however, it takes time to come about, as long as you don't attack him directly

Then theres two questions here. A) Did the WK put in enough appearances for it to be a guarantee that BB always works or is there the possibility that a heroic individual of sufficient constitution could overcome it through said constitution or willpower? (If there is the possibility then it is in fact best to assume Conan would fit into the margin). B) Does his belt protect him from the BB?




WK has more than 2,000 in the books at least

Undoubtedly but the exact number or even an estimate of Conan's troops was never given. 500 is a nice low number that is guaranteed of him to have while everybody KNOWS WK has at least 2,000.

[warty goblin]

Being midget shanked does expose a fairly large hole in one's swordsmenship but I think a lot of swordsmen would be surprised if a midget shanked them though so I'll give you that. I'd argue Conan is the superior sword-fighter though, for to use the falliable resource that is Wiki, Conan is practically invincible in melee combat and if his back is pushed to the wall then he'll kill opponents by the score...Also in an age of general war and fighters nobody's described as being physically stronger then Conan unless they were supernatural. Again though he generally wins these fights to, they are simply harder.

A few points.
1) Merry is a hobbit wearing an Elven cloak, and thus damn near impossible to see normally. Eomer later in the same scene literally walks right by him, as do most of the Rohirrim, while Merry is just standing there. During the fight with the Witch King I believe he was cowering, trying not to be seen.
2) He also attacked from behind, and gave absolutely no indication of his presense pre-shanking.
3) He wasn't even supposed to be there. Personally I think that getting backstabbed by a nigh-invisible and highly stealthy enemy there was no way to predict being there while beating the crap out of somebody else doesn't exactly say very terrible things about one's swordsmenship. I mean, it's not like the Witch King lost a two way dual between himself Eowyn and Merry in a normal sense. He had already beaten Eowyn in like one swing of his mace and I don't doubt that had Merry not been next to unseeable, he would have won handily.



Then theres two questions here. A) Did the WK put in enough appearances for it to be a guarantee that BB always works or is there the possibility that a heroic individual of sufficient constitution could overcome it through said constitution or willpower? (If there is the possibility then it is in fact best to assume Conan would fit into the margin). B) Does his belt protect him from the BB?
[/QUOTE[
Nobody ever recovers from the Black Breath of their own accord, the only way they are saved is if Aragorn heals them. Given that it nearly kills Merry, who is a hobbit and thus much tougher than a human when it comes to evil magic, I feel reasonably secure in it is invariably lethal. Being tough may allow you to fight its effects for longer, I'm not sure, but the Black Breath is very potent stuff.





Undoubtedly but the exact number or even an estimate of Conan's troops was never given. 500 is a nice low number that is guaranteed of him to have while everybody KNOWS WK has at least 2,000.

[Callos_DeTerran]

A few points.
1) Merry is a hobbit wearing an Elven cloak, and thus damn near impossible to see normally. Eomer later in the same scene literally walks right by him, as do most of the Rohirrim, while Merry is just standing there. During the fight with the Witch King I believe he was cowering, trying not to be seen.
2) He also attacked from behind, and gave absolutely no indication of his presense pre-shanking.
3) He wasn't even supposed to be there. Personally I think that getting backstabbed by a nigh-invisible and highly stealthy enemy there was no way to predict being there while beating the crap out of somebody else doesn't exactly say very terrible things about one's swordsmenship. I mean, it's not like the Witch King lost a two way dual between himself Eowyn and Merry in a normal sense. He had already beaten Eowyn in like one swing of his mace and I don't doubt that had Merry not been next to unseeable, he would have won handily.

I was mostly joking about the midget shanking being a hole in the WK's defenses. I realize that nobody really expects a terrified midget to suddenly appear behind you in the middle of battle and stab you in the back. :smalltongue: That doesn't mean I still don't find it funny though.



Nobody ever recovers from the Black Breath of their own accord, the only way they are saved is if Aragorn heals them. Given that it nearly kills Merry, who is a hobbit and thus much tougher than a human when it comes to evil magic, I feel reasonably secure in it is invariably lethal. Being tough may allow you to fight its effects for longer, I'm not sure, but the Black Breath is very potent stuff.

Okay...that's good to know but has it ever affected somebody besides Eowyn and Merry? From what I remember of the books, which is admittedly not much, those were the only two hit by the BB so theres not exactly much of a test group there. Alright, so they can be saved if Aragorn heals'em. Great. I meant has anyone ever resisted being infected with it in the first place. I can accept that as a magical disease/curse, which I'm equating Black Breath too, it can only be cured a certain way but can people avoid being 'infected' in the first place? Also, again, would the belt stop the BB from being infected in the first place? I can also concede that, if infected, it is lethal from what's given.

[Dervag]

[QUOTE=warty goblin;4267697]A few points.
1) Merry is a hobbit wearing an Elven cloak, and thus damn near impossible to see normally. Eomer later in the same scene literally walks right by him, as do most of the Rohirrim, while Merry is just standing there. During the fight with the Witch King I believe he was cowering, trying not to be seen.[quote]Well, when Conan is trying to hide, hardly any mortal man can find him, even among races with expert tracking experience. It helps if it's dark, of course.

But Conan would cheerfully go on missions like "infiltrate the enemy camp of 2000 men at night to find out their battle plans."

As for the Witch King's strength, I think the Witch King's skill in personal combat is at least a little inferior to Conan. By the time he reached his physical prime in his twenties and thirties, Conan had no equals in swordsmanship and precious few in raw strength. However, the Black Breath is likely to be an equalizer there. If it is (to blatantly borrow D&D terms) an effect that allows a Fortitude save or something like that, Conan will probably be able to resist long enough to win. If it's automatic and swift, Conan will lose because he won't be able to overcome the Witch King easily except by stealth, and perhaps not even then.

[GoC]

A) Did the WK put in enough appearances for it to be a guarantee that BB always works or is there the possibility that a heroic individual of sufficient constitution could overcome it through said constitution or willpower? (If there is the possibility then it is in fact best to assume Conan would fit into the margin).
This is a Middle Earth vs thread's biggest problem. So many things happen only once or twice...


explain
Not sure what you want me to explain...


Funny they told Churchill the same thing didn't they? And napleon
Ironic isn't it?:smalltongue:

[Steven the Lich]

You're not wanted.
Now see, I for one see that as very rude. EE just answered your question for me, my answer would've very well been the same.

I had not much knowledge of the Black Breath... that increases the WKs effectiveness to win. Conan can strike him, and would be crippled, if the BB is in play (and I'm confident it is, unless it too has been nerfed, as a lot of stuff on the WK's side)

Hit and Run tactics can be applied, but WK would likely surround the area with the guys, making hit and run even more difficult to pull off. Besides, while the orcs will lose numbers, so will Conan's men, which would be more of a toll on them. WK could plow right through these guys, and his presence would make the humans lose even more numbers than the orcs (seeing as Black breath weakens one the closer they are to the WK)
Conan's insufficient amount of knowledge of the landscape could get him easily lost. Hit and run tactics would likely lead him into a random encounter with more orcs.
I doubt that WK would have only 2000 soldiers with him, but regardless, Conan is outnumbered. That tends to work bad in his favor, especially if its at night, the orcs are snipers, and arrows can be difficult to see then. We can also presume that the WK will have siege engines, and all that. Osgiliath is a huge ruin, which would be easier for Conan to get lost in, and all that easier for WK to corner him (WK can plan much more efficiently because he can fly, and there for get a better look at the land... Fell Beast ftw).
If cornered, Conan will be able to hold his ground, but what of his men? The orcs would likely shoot down upon them from the roof tops, while the infantry bashs and slashs Conan's frontlines.
The WK can use hit and run tactics far more effectively as well, and as such, Conan is at disadvantage.

Heres how things will likely be wrapped up.
Fighting starts.
Conan uses hit and run tactics, works for a while before his forces are surrounded and being pressed inward.
The Orcs take the roof tops, and pound on the Auqaleans.
The WK occasionally swoops down on the frontlines, weakening the soldiers there currently, and thus casualites increase for Conan.
When finally backed against a wall, WK swoops down and rallies his orcs for a final charge, and with the likely state of Conans elite force by this time, it would be like... well, I can't think of a competant example, but Conan would likely be alone quite soon after that, judging on the black breath, fear power, and the enhanced abilities of the orcs and WK.
Oh, and WK does have that "weapon turn to ash" enchantment, correct? So even if he has no barrier of prophecy, all weapons Conan use turn to ash quickly.

Conan: Die, evil abomination.
Witch King: Try, skippy.
Conan: AHHHH! (stabs WK with his sword) Ah-hah!
Sword turns to ash, and his right arm is numb.
Conan: wth?
Witch King: Strike one.
Conan: DIE! (Chops with the axe in his left hand) Heh-heh
Axe turns to ash, left arm turns numb
Witch King: Strike two.
Conan: Alright, this is getting annoying. Mind if I borrow your mace.
Witch King: Here you go.
Conan: Thanks. HEEYAH! (Whacks WK with the mace with the mace in his mouth)
Witch King: Ouch, that actually hurt.
Conan: Sure as hell it did. (Mace turns to ash, and his mouth becomes numb) ahhh... ptooey &Phooey&
Witch King: Strike three. My turn. (Plunges his blade into Conan's heart) Sweet dreams.
Conan: (gasps while talking nonsensical words)*Gasp* lufe fading... blecnass cansuing... salf nerratian cantinuing...
His final words were intended to be... Life fading, Blackness consuming, and self narration continuing.

[Mr. Scaly]

As for the Witch King's strength, I think the Witch King's skill in personal combat is at least a little inferior to Conan. By the time he reached his physical prime in his twenties and thirties, Conan had no equals in swordsmanship and precious few in raw strength. However, the Black Breath is likely to be an equalizer there.

I'll be the first to admit I know very little about Conan, but as they say "even the best swordsman int he world will lose to a trick he's never seen before." Something like the Black Breath, the palpable aura of terror that surrounds the WK, and his tendency to shatter his foes weaponry are nothing that Conan has seen before. Black breath alone could probably do it, like you say.

[warty goblin]

I'll be the first to admit I know very little about Conan, but as they say "even the best swordsman int he world will lose to a trick he's never seen before." Something like the Black Breath, the palpable aura of terror that surrounds the WK, and his tendency to shatter his foes weaponry are nothing that Conan has seen before. Black breath alone could probably do it, like you say.

Indeed. I don't think anybody is claiming the Witch-King is a better swordsmen (or macewraith, as the case may be) than Conan. It just happens that he brings more to a fight than just his ability to beat stuff to death, like his ability to seriously screw with people who try to beat him to death.

Also, minor detail I got wrong when I first responded. I remembered wrongly, the sword melts after Merry stabs the Witch King, but his arm goes numb immediately "...for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand" (p826 of my edition). The sword however does not melt immediately after the stabbing, but a few minutes later. He does however manage to walk all the way to Minas Tirith in a semi-functional state, although probably not a combat ready one, since he's shaking and has dark and blurry vision.

On recovery from the Black Breath. It seems to be some sort of general area of effect spread by the Nazgul, and apparently many people catch it at Pelennor Fields and the siege of Gondor, or something called the "Black Shadow" which I take to be equivilent, although it could in fact be a seperate condition. Either way, it cannot be cured by any regular Gondorian medicine, and seems to kill generally within a day. I say that because the description of it is given during the same day as the battle, and makes reference to them worsening as the sun sets, growing increasingly chill and deliriouis and dying. The siege however had been going on since the night previous to the Battle of Pelennor Fields, so theoretically some of those afflicted could have caught the disease something like a day and a half before dying. Not much to go on, but clearly a fairly serious condition. If nothing else the WK could move through our hypothetical battlefield then play run-away for a day until all of Conan's men at least were dead, before simply drowing him in orcs.

Damn I wish more information was available, but that's all I can find. Sorry.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'll be the first to admit I know very little about Conan, but as they say "even the best swordsman int he world will lose to a trick he's never seen before." Something like the Black Breath, the palpable aura of terror that surrounds the WK, and his tendency to shatter his foes weaponry are nothing that Conan has seen before. Black breath alone could probably do it, like you say.

Hmm...Terror=nothing new, having weapon broken/destroyed=nothing new (just the how would be new), the only real new thing would be the Black Breath. Again the questions of 'Has anyone resisted catching it period? Not shrugged it off once infected' and 'What exactly does the belt guard against?' come up. The belt has not been defined what it guards against so everyone seems happy to just ignore it, but if it guards against the BB then thats one major advantage of the WK gone.

Also of note would his tendency to shatter somebody's weapons work if someone started beating him to death with their bare hands? From the sounds of it you need to cut the WK for the numbness thing so physically beating him to death-death with his bare hands sounds like it'd get around that.

[warty goblin]

Hmm...Terror=nothing new, having weapon broken/destroyed=nothing new (just the how would be new), the only real new thing would be the Black Breath. Again the questions of 'Has anyone resisted catching it period? Not shrugged it off once infected' and 'What exactly does the belt guard against?' come up. The belt has not been defined what it guards against so everyone seems happy to just ignore it, but if it guards against the BB then thats one major advantage of the WK gone.

Unfortunately I really can't provide any examples of anybody specifying whether or not the Black Breath can be resisted. Sorry.


Also of note would his tendency to shatter somebody's weapons work if someone started beating him to death with their bare hands? From the sounds of it you need to cut the WK for the numbness thing so physically beating him to death-death with his bare hands sounds like it'd get around that.
I think you might have just broken my brain with the punching idea. There are no known consequences of punching Ringwraiths since I don't think anybody actually ever touches one. I can't imagine it would be heathly given the generally detrimental consequences their presense has for people, but unfortunately I have no evidence beyond that to say...

On the other hand I can't imagine Conan would choose fistacuffs as his first option, and sword vs. fists, particularly against somebody with likely disabled limb doesn't sound like a particularly optimistic outcome for Conan.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Unfortunately I really can't provide any examples of anybody specifying whether or not the Black Breath can be resisted. Sorry.

Crud. I suppose it'd be fair to assume that it CAN'T be resisted.


I think you might have just broken my brain with the punching idea. There are no known consequences of punching Ringwraiths since I don't think anybody actually ever touches one. I can't imagine it would be heathly given the generally detrimental consequences their presense has for people, but unfortunately I have no evidence beyond that to say...

On the other hand I can't imagine Conan would choose fistacuffs as his first option, and sword vs. fists, particularly against somebody with likely disabled limb doesn't sound like a particularly optimistic outcome for Conan.

One could say that when Aragorn sets some of them aflame that he might have touched them (to no effect) but thats a bit of a stretch. More importantly nothing bad happened to Aragorn for doing such (though it's doubtful if he got the Witchking with that or random Ringwraith). From the sounds of it (and how specific LotR mythical protections seem to be) would it be a reasonable conclusion that it's if the WK gets cut or pierced that horrible horrible things happen?

Trust me...if Conan sees a couple of soldiers stab the WK and fall to the ground clutching their arms (after their sword melts) he's either getting out his bow, retreating for the moment to try and puzzle through it, or going to engage in fisticuffs with the WK (probably throw in some shield bashing too so isn't completely helpless while beating the crap out of the WK with his bare hands).

Besides...you have to admit the imagery of Conan beating the WK to death with his bare hands is pretty funny.

[Mr. Scaly]

Hmm...Terror=nothing new, having weapon broken/destroyed=nothing new (just the how would be new), the only real new thing would be the Black Breath. Again the questions of 'Has anyone resisted catching it period? Not shrugged it off once infected' and 'What exactly does the belt guard against?' come up. The belt has not been defined what it guards against so everyone seems happy to just ignore it, but if it guards against the BB then thats one major advantage of the WK gone.

Also of note would his tendency to shatter somebody's weapons work if someone started beating him to death with their bare hands? From the sounds of it you need to cut the WK for the numbness thing so physically beating him to death-death with his bare hands sounds like it'd get around that.

Heh. I just had the image of this big brawny guy tackling the WK via WWF. I have no idea whatsoever would happen...I suppose it depends on whose fists it was. If it was someone like Grandmaster Kane doing the punching I'm sure that WK would be hurt, but Conan's fists? No idea.

I wish I knew what that belt did too...

[Callos_DeTerran]

Heh. I just had the image of this big brawny guy tackling the WK via WWF. I have no idea whatsoever would happen...I suppose it depends on whose fists it was. If it was someone like Grandmaster Kane doing the punching I'm sure that WK would be hurt, but Conan's fists? No idea.

I wish I knew what that belt did too...

A) Who's Grandmaster Kane?

B) Considering you need supernatural strength to be stronger then Conan I think he could do some damage.

C) OH YEAAAAAHHHH! :smalltongue:

[Mr. Scaly]

A) Who's Grandmaster Kane?

B) Considering you need supernatural strength to be stronger then Conan I think he could do some damage.

C) OH YEAAAAAHHHH! :smalltongue:

A) A level 20 monk from Salvatore's books who once beat the tar out of three adult dragons at once. I'm sure he could hurt WK bare handed, but doesn't Conan normally stab things?

B) How strong is Conan anyway? I don't think that was ever made clear to me.

[Callos_DeTerran]

A) A level 20 monk from Salvatore's books who once beat the tar out of three adult dragons at once. I'm sure he could hurt WK bare handed, but doesn't Conan normally stab things?

B) How strong is Conan anyway? I don't think that was ever made clear to me.

A) Ohhhhh, that guy. I thought he sounded familiar. Pretty sure he's above level 20 though, but thats besides this thread. Conan generally stabs things but he has a rather varied skill set and practices brawling a lot too.

B) Strong? Again, can't really give an example from what I read, but his wiki explicitly states that the only beings who have proven stronger then him had supernatural strength in addition to ordinary strength...or were some monster.

[Mr. Scaly]

A) Ohhhhh, that guy. I thought he sounded familiar. Pretty sure he's above level 20 though, but thats besides this thread. Conan generally stabs things but he has a rather varied skill set and practices brawling a lot too.

B) Strong? Again, can't really give an example from what I read, but his wiki explicitly states that the only beings who have proven stronger then him had supernatural strength in addition to ordinary strength...or were some monster.

A) I should really have watched those movies before getting into this discussion. Hmm, let's assume that he's skilled enough to fight unarmed with the WK. Given what happens whenever someone actually stabs him I'd guess that his limb would become numbed to paralysis. Whether that would hurt the WK...I have no idea. I always sort of assumed that only magical holy type weapons could hurt him.

B) WK is a monster, but hasn't really showed any great strength as far as I can remember. Aside from lifting and wielding a mace and sword at once. he has great strength of will of course...he nearly killed Gandalf in a magical battle. Suppose he does the whole 'mind breaking' thing on Conan?

Ooh, or he waits until nightfall and shanks him in his sleep?

[EvilElitest]

In regards to the effects of stabbing the Witch-King, Merry's entire arm is numb pretty much right after he shanks the WK. He has his dying words with Theoden, then Eomer rides up and says his bit, after which Merry realizes his entire arm is numb and useless. Say maybe fifteen-thirty minutes tops for this, although it honestly could take far less time, it is rather hard to tell from the text. This is a hobbit, a species generally considered incrediably resistant to evil magic as well. Against a human I'd imagine it would be even faster acting, although this is again somewhat hard to tell, as the only human who stabs the Witch King is Eowyn, who just had her arm shattered and also rather wanted to die, which I would imagine lowers her resistance to the evil effects of the Witch King significantly.

Suffice to say however that I consider it extremely hard if not downright impossible to beat a foe who disarms and disables you every time you manage to hit them.
I think that it took like five min, because Eomer showed up really fast then merry wandered around for only a little while. Maybe 10



Wait, what? Why is it night-time to? I thought this orcs could function in sunlight, so why night? O.o This confuses me but then again I could be thinking of the wrong kind of orcs so the night-time rule might be needed.
These orcs are elite orcs, but they aren't Uruks. They have the night thing going for them.



That's more debatable. Hrm...not sure. Whenever the words 'stealthy' were used in Conanverse I don't really think they were applied to the Aquilonians, but hit-and-run isn't exactly stealth either. With an experienced hit-and-run tactician (Conan) and being the good leader that he is (not using fear like some people, his soldiers would genuinely lay their lives on the line for him and follows his orders explicitly even if they didn't know WHY they had to retreat to such-and-such position after the second arrow shot or second enemy slain, for example) I'd say they would be above passable at it.
Hmm, so good commander and willing troops, but still, not use to this sort of fighting and not properly equipped / trained for it


Yes, yes we do. I think I've confused this debate more then helped it
Your a wonderful person, but i am so confused. It might be the source material however



Being midget shanked does expose a fairly large hole in one's swordsmenship but I think a lot of swordsmen would be surprised if a midget shanked them though so I'll give you that. I'd argue Conan is the superior sword-fighter though, for to use the falliable resource that is Wiki, Conan is practically invincible in melee combat and if his back is pushed to the wall then he'll kill opponents by the score...Also in an age of general war and fighters nobody's described as being physically stronger then Conan unless they were supernatural. Again though he generally wins these fights to, they are simply harder.
From what i read from his wiki article, it said he isn't superhuman and has trobule against really large groups however.



Then theres two questions here. A) Did the WK put in enough appearances for it to be a guarantee that BB always works or is there the possibility that a heroic individual of sufficient constitution could overcome it through said constitution or willpower? (If there is the possibility then it is in fact best to assume Conan would fit into the margin). B) Does his belt protect him from the BB?
A) There seem to be too kinds of BB. THe Black Shadow is a cropduster effect, that when he or the other nazgul fly around it can effect everyone below them. But htat seems to be a will/strength thing, so Cohan would be good, if not his men. However True or at least greater BB effects anyone who is around him. If you aren't direclty exposed to him and strong willed you can avoid the effects for a while, however if you directly harm him in any way or make contact you will get it no matter what at its worst
B) I don't think so, Merry was a magical resistent hobbit and he went down




Undoubtedly but the exact number or even an estimate of Conan's troops was never given. 500 is a nice low number that is guaranteed of him to have while everybody KNOWS WK has at least 2,000.
Well the WK had more in the tens of thousands but i see your point



I was mostly joking about the midget shanking being a hole in the WK's defenses. I realize that nobody really expects a terrified midget to suddenly appear behind you in the middle of battle and stab you in the back. That doesn't mean I still don't find it funny though.
We should make a flash video


Okay...that's good to know but has it ever affected somebody besides Eowyn and Merry? From what I remember of the books, which is admittedly not much, those were the only two hit by the BB so theres not exactly much of a test group there. Alright, so they can be saved if Aragorn heals'em. Great. I meant has anyone ever resisted being infected with it in the first place. I can accept that as a magical disease/curse, which I'm equating Black Breath too, it can only be cured a certain way but can people avoid being 'infected' in the first place? Also, again, would the belt stop the BB from being infected in the first place? I can also concede that, if infected, it is lethal from what's given.

1) Eowyn and merry get it the worst. Faramir gets it from an arrow taht was touched by the Nazgul, and a bunch of random troops get it just by their presense. Strong will helps a lot if you don't make direct contact however, it helps a lot


This is a Middle Earth vs thread's biggest problem. So many things happen only once or twice...
It was specifically stated to effect a bunch of people



Ironic isn't it?
yeah, the lessers holder back the greaters :smalltongue:



Now see, I for one see that as very rude. EE just answered your question for me, my answer would've very well been the same.
The irony of this is so strange. Thanks Steven, but this you have to admit is ironic




Also, minor detail I got wrong when I first responded. I remembered wrongly, the sword melts after Merry stabs the Witch King, but his arm goes numb immediately "...for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand" (p826 of my edition). The sword however does not melt immediately after the stabbing, but a few minutes later. He does however manage to walk all the way to Minas Tirith in a semi-functional state, although probably not a combat ready one, since he's shaking and has dark and blurry vision
Eowyn's sword was instently destroyed. Maybe magic weapons last longer


Hmm...Terror=nothing new, having weapon broken/destroyed=nothing new (just the how would be new), the only real new thing would be the Black Breath. Again the questions of 'Has anyone resisted catching it period? Not shrugged it off once infected' and 'What exactly does the belt guard against?' come up. The belt has not been defined what it guards against so everyone seems happy to just ignore it, but if it guards against the BB then thats one major advantage of the WK gone.

The belt might work against hte black shadow and help him resist it, but direct contact with the wraith is deadly




Also of note would his tendency to shatter somebody's weapons work if someone started beating him to death with their bare hands? From the sounds of it you need to cut the WK for the numbness thing so physically beating him to death-death with his bare hands sounds like it'd get around that.


Attacking him brings about the BB. Funny image through

WK- No living man can hinder me'
Cohan-kick in the nads
WK-........well thats new
Cohan- Sucker punch
WK- ok stop
Cohan- Jump kick
WK- really, its just pathetic
Cohan- Trip kick
WK-Stop it
Cohan- Right fistie cuff
WK- Really stuff
Cohan- Come on, fisty cuffs
WK- I'm made by a British Oxeford Proffesor
Cohan- Oh bugger




I think you might have just broken my brain with the punching idea. There are no known consequences of punching Ringwraiths since I don't think anybody actually ever touches one. I can't imagine it would be heathly given the generally detrimental consequences their presense has for people, but unfortunately I have no evidence beyond that to say...

Making contact with the wraith gives you the BB. Ranged weapons however




One could say that when Aragorn sets some of them aflame that he might have touched them (to no effect) but thats a bit of a stretch. More importantly nothing bad happened to Aragorn for doing such (though it's doubtful if he got the Witchking with that or random Ringwraith). From the sounds of it (and how specific LotR mythical protections seem to be) would it be a reasonable conclusion that it's if the WK gets cut or pierced that horrible horrible things happen?
To be fair, he didn't actually burn the Wk but made him retreat.



A) A level 20 monk from Salvatore's books who once beat the tar out of three adult dragons at once. I'm sure he could hurt WK bare handed, but doesn't Conan normally stab things?

wait do we even seen him the books however?

I like Steven's story
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

wait do we even seen him the books however?

I like Steven's story
from
EE

Well, Kane is in the third book...which you haven't read, ironically. >_>

[EvilElitest]

Well, Kane is in the third book...which you haven't read, ironically. >_>

.........the irony
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Your a wonderful person, but i am so confused. It might be the source material however

I don't know if I'm confused, insulted, or worried about your state of mental health...in lieu of indecision I opt for a mixture of all three.

[Dervag]

I had not much knowledge of the Black Breath... that increases the WKs effectiveness to win. Conan can strike him, and would be crippled, if the BB is in play (and I'm confident it is, unless it too has been nerfed, as a lot of stuff on the WK's side)Remember the belt in the original post- specifically listed in Conan's inventory as giving him at least some protection against the Witch-King's magic. My impression is that this would keep him from being outright demolished by the Witch-King's supernatural defenses, at least easily.


Hit and Run tactics can be applied, but WK would likely surround the area with the guys, making hit and run even more difficult to pull off. Besides, while the orcs will lose numbers, so will Conan's men, which would be more of a toll on them. WK could plow right through these guys, and his presence would make the humans lose even more numbers than the orcs (seeing as Black breath weakens one the closer they are to the WK)
Conan's insufficient amount of knowledge of the landscape could get him easily lost. Hit and run tactics would likely lead him into a random encounter with more orcs.Aquilonian heavies ought to be able to bash through anything but a concentrated orc force. They're quite well armed. However, if the Witch-King keeps his men concentrated or manages to ambush the Aquilonians, it'll get ugly. You're absolutely right that the Witch-King can plow through Aquilonians easily enough.


I doubt that WK would have only 2000 soldiers with him, but regardless, Conan is outnumbered. That tends to work bad in his favor, especially if its at night, the orcs are snipers, and arrows can be difficult to see then.They are? I'm not sure; can you bring up some examples? Sure, they use arrows, but most armies use arrows.


Osgiliath is a huge ruin, which would be easier for Conan to get lost in, and all that easier for WK to corner him (WK can plan much more efficiently because he can fly, and there for get a better look at the land... Fell Beast ftw).On the other hand, aerial reconnaissance in the dark over urban ruins isn't a very reliable tactic. Especially when it puts the commander out of touch with his troops.


If cornered, Conan will be able to hold his ground, but what of his men? The orcs would likely shoot down upon them from the roof tops, while the infantry bashs and slashs Conan's frontlines.What if he's holed up in the buildings? Conan is fond of ambushes himself, y'know. He's also experienced at fighting in a variety of terrain. A lot of his adventures take place in hill county, where the one thing you learn fast is to control the high ground. The orcs are going to face some serious competition for those rooftops, I'd think. Moreover, Conan has also spent considerable time as a thief and mercenary in urban settings, so while he won't know the terrain of Osgiliath in particular, he'll be familiar with that type of terrain. He may not be able to fly, but he's good at sneaking around a cityscape and he's smart enough

The traditional image of Conan is of the gigantic, stupid brute- sort of like Thog, only not as green. But the actual Conan stories tend to make him smart as well as strong- to the point of Marty Stu-hood, often enough. Then again, if you need a man to kill the Witch King, it's going to be hard to manage it with anything less than that kind of strength and cunning.

I really think Conan might win this one. I can certainly imagine it as a novella. The Witch-King holds a lot of cards, but Conan has gone up against sorcerers, supernatural beings, and larger armies before many times in his career.


When finally backed against a wall, WK swoops down and rallies his orcs for a final charge, and with the likely state of Conans elite force by this time, it would be like... well, I can't think of a competant example, but Conan would likely be alone quite soon after that, judging on the black breath, fear power, and the enhanced abilities of the orcs and WK.
Oh, and WK does have that "weapon turn to ash" enchantment, correct? So even if he has no barrier of prophecy, all weapons Conan use turn to ash quickly.

Conan: Die, evil abomination.
Witch King: Try, skippy.
Conan: AHHHH! (stabs WK with his sword) Ah-hah!
Sword turns to ash, and his right arm is numb.
Conan: wth?
Witch King: Strike one.
Conan: DIE! (Chops with the axe in his left hand) Heh-heh
Axe turns to ash, left arm turns numb
Witch King: Strike two.
Conan: Alright, this is getting annoying. Mind if I borrow your mace.
Witch King: Here you go.
Conan: Thanks. HEEYAH! (Whacks WK with the mace with the mace in his mouth)
Witch King: Ouch, that actually hurt.
Conan: Sure as hell it did. (Mace turns to ash, and his mouth becomes numb) ahhh... ptooey &Phooey&
Witch King: Strike three. My turn. (Plunges his blade into Conan's heart) Sweet dreams.Funny. I like it, I really do- Black Knight meets Black Breath. On the other hand, I think you're discounting the aforesaid belt- the point of which was to give Conan a bit of an equalizer so he wouldn't be hopelessly outclassed in hand to hand with the Witch King. Obviously, this is a total mismatch if Conan can't kill the Witch King, because the Witch King can surely kill Conan and none of the Aquilonian soldiers will be up to the job if Conan can't do it. I think the original poster realized that.


Also of note would his tendency to shatter somebody's weapons work if someone started beating him to death with their bare hands? From the sounds of it you need to cut the WK for the numbness thing so physically beating him to death-death with his bare hands sounds like it'd get around that.I do not think even Conan the Cimmerian could kill the Witch King of Angmar with his bare hands.


Crud. I suppose it'd be fair to assume that it CAN'T be resisted.Faramir was shot with an arrow and afflicted by the Black Breath, but it was a critical plot point that he wasn't mortally wounded. Comatose, yes. Mortally wounded, no. Hence the reason Gandalf worked so hard to stop Denethor from immolating his son on a funeral pyre.

Granted, Aragorn came by and pulled him out of the coma two days later, but I think the key is that Faramir wasn't quickly killed. And Conan is almost certainly Faramir's equal in fortitude.


Trust me...if Conan sees a couple of soldiers stab the WK and fall to the ground clutching their arms (after their sword melts) he's either getting out his bow, retreating for the moment to try and puzzle through it, or going to engage in fisticuffs with the WK (probably throw in some shield bashing too so isn't completely helpless while beating the crap out of the WK with his bare hands).I can see that- Conan didn't mindlessly attack an enemy if he knew he needed a better battle plan. I'd expect him to go looking for chunks of rubble. Like a good Homeric hero, when Conan thought an opponent was really tough, he had a penchant for chucking the biggest rock he could find at it. Archery is probably more likely if that's an option, but throwing rocks is awesome.


Heh. I just had the image of this big brawny guy tackling the WK via WWF. I have no idea whatsoever would happen...I suppose it depends on whose fists it was. If it was someone like Grandmaster Kane doing the punching I'm sure that WK would be hurt, but Conan's fists? No idea.If any mortal man who did not have the power to channel magic into his fists somehow could kill the Witch King of Angmar with his bare hands, Conan could. Conan has killed armored warriors by twisting their necks around, outstrangled the mighty stranglers of bizarre cults, crushed the bones of martial artists with hundreds of kills under their belts, and generally proved very deadly at unarmed combat.

I don't expect anyone could do it, though; the Witch King is armed and surrounded by armed followers. Now, I'm sure the Witch King would remember it for centuries. If nothing else because it was so unexpected.

[Anteros]

I don't really see Conan being affected by the black breath, but I suppose it's open to personal interpretation.

We should also take into account that the whole "random woman/Conan lover sneaks into Conan's forces to help fight...thus leading to the I am no man speech" is just the type of trite, cliche thing you're likely to see in a Conan story.

Rant incoming.

I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that the reason the WK was vulnerable there was that he dropped his defenses in shock at just how stupid that plot line was.

And honestly, what kind of half he-assed protection is that anyway? I mean humans are like one out of ten or more possible races in ME, and he's protected from only half of them. To be perfectly honest, if I'm gonna run around touting invincibility because of some prophecy, I'll probably check to make sure it applies to more than 1/20th of the population first. Heck, a human infant could have probably done him in on the semantic of not being a man yet.

[Oslecamo]

I might add, conan may kill lot of magic users in his historys, but mages and sorcerers in conan's universe are really really pathetic.

In Conan's world magic is really slow and cubersome, and any half decent warrior has all the time in the world to cut an enemy in pieces befoe.

For god's sake, in one of the latest conan adventures, he arrives at the grave of a really powerfull and feared mage...Who was slaughtered by around a dozen pissed off comoners who stormed his house when he was sleeping! What kind of powerfull and feared mage is this, who can't handle a dozen farmers with sticks and stones?

Not to mention, 90% of the times Conan gets some artifact/weapon that allows him to bypass any decent magic trick the enemy may have by some miracle.

Conan is screwed, unless he manages to get several of those handy dandy numerioan weapons wich can actually hurt the WK, and even then the whole profecy thingy makes things hard.

[Mr. Scaly]

Hmm...so Conan is massively deadly at hand to hand then. Alright then, from what everyone says it sounds like he's better in skill than WK (though WK isn't weak).

Wk's sorcery is much stronger though. He nearly killed Gandalf, who was some kind of higher being after all, and seems much more dangerous than any of the sorcerers that Conan faces.

[Zenos]

About the Aragorn driving of the Nazgul at Weathertop, I seem to remember that the Black Riders disliked flame, so he managed to make them retreat for a while.

[Krrth]

Alright, let me first start out by saying I am NOT a Conan expert. My dad, who was, used to tell me about the stories when I was younger, so I'm going off of memory here.

Having said that, my understanding is that Conan is not a "normal" person. Decended from Atlantis (and rumored to be decended from Crom), he seems to be much like the original Numenrians (sp) from LotR.

[Dervag]

I don't really see Conan being affected by the black breath, but I suppose it's open to personal interpretation.

We should also take into account that the whole "random woman/Conan lover sneaks into Conan's forces to help fight...thus leading to the I am no man speech" is just the type of trite, cliche thing you're likely to see in a Conan story.Of course, only a small fraction of the love interests in Conan stories are competent fighters.

I think Conan would be affected by the Black Breath- it is an extremely powerful curse and Conan is not immune to magic. But between his great fortitude and whatever positive effects the belt has, I think he has a decent chance of staying on his feet long enough to put the Witch King down if it comes to single combat.

Remember, the belt is supposed to let Conan harm the Witch King- we don't need a plot trick.


Rant incoming.

I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that the reason the WK was vulnerable there was that he dropped his defenses in shock at just how stupid that plot line was.

And honestly, what kind of half he-assed protection is that anyway? I mean humans are like one out of ten or more possible races in ME, and he's protected from only half of them. To be perfectly honest, if I'm gonna run around touting invincibility because of some prophecy, I'll probably check to make sure it applies to more than 1/20th of the population first. Heck, a human infant could have probably done him in on the semantic of not being a man yet.It sounds like a half-assed protection in a culture where we take for granted that:
a)Women can fight worth a damn, and
b)Once in a while, women pull a Polly Oliver and go onto a battlefield.
We do; the Witch King of Angmar did not.

In mythology, that kind of highly specific protection is a standard trope, believe it or not. Achilles? Heel. Cuchulain? Died when forced to violate one or the other of two out of his many highly specific geases.

Shakespeare did it- "no man born of woman" would kill Macbeth. Was he supposed to expect some guy who was delivered by Caesarean section to come along and chop his head off? Most fictional characters don't have that kind of genre awareness, and rightly so- high levels of genre awareness only work well in comedy.


Having said that, my understanding is that Conan is not a "normal" person. Decended from Atlantis (and rumored to be decended from Crom), he seems to be much like the original Numenrians (sp) from LotR.I did a little poking around last night, and that seems to be the case. Conan's tribe, the Cimmerians, are the closest thing Hyborea has to the race of Numenor- they're directly descended from the survivors of a high civilization on a sunken island to the west of the main continent.

Let's think about this issue another way. Ignoring prophecies about "no man may kill me," could Aragorn have killed the Witch King in single combat? Quite possibly. He might have lost, but I think he'd have stood a chance.

I think Conan, with this belt described in the original post, would stand a chance too.

[Callos_DeTerran]

In Conan's world magic is really slow and cubersome, and any half decent warrior has all the time in the world to cut an enemy in pieces befoe.

For god's sake, in one of the latest conan adventures, he arrives at the grave of a really powerfull and feared mage...Who was slaughtered by around a dozen pissed off comoners who stormed his house when he was sleeping! What kind of powerfull and feared mage is this, who can't handle a dozen farmers with sticks and stones?

Pardon me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure if a guy with a heavy rock snuck up on Gandalf while he was sleeping he could probably bash his head in. :smalltongue:

Theres a difference between using powerful magic in a straight up fight and having a bunch of guys burst into your bedroom with rocks and sticks to beat you to death. It's like how the WK couldn't possibly have expected to be midget shanked in mid-battle. People in the Conan-verse react realistically and unlike D&D they don't constantly think everybody is out to get them (like adventurers in D&D do) and if you have a fearsome reputation (note, reputation) then you don't expect the superstitious masses to rise up in arms against you.

Also point of fact, was there even proof this guy was powerful and by who's scale? Did the Stygians think he was strong or just the bumpkins who don't know jack about magic who told Conan about the 'mighty' wizard they slew?

[EvilElitest]

I don't know if I'm confused, insulted, or worried about your state of mental health...in lieu of indecision I opt for a mixture of all three.

So your worried about my mental state in a an confused manner while being insulted?

Is Dervag ignoring me?



Remember the belt in the original post- specifically listed in Conan's inventory as giving him at least some protection against the Witch-King's magic. My impression is that this would keep him from being outright demolished by the Witch-King's supernatural defenses, at least easily.

It might protect him from the effects of the Black Shadow and everything but direct contact



Aquilonian heavies ought to be able to bash through anything but a concentrated orc force. They're quite well armed. However, if the Witch-King keeps his men concentrated or manages to ambush the Aquilonians, it'll get ugly. You're absolutely right that the Witch-King can plow through Aquilonians easily enough.
They are against soilder orcs, who are not only zealous and well trained/armed, but rather good in this terrain at night


They are? I'm not sure; can you bring up some examples? Sure, they use arrows, but most armies use arrows.

Almost every fight in LotR and the hobbit has them using snipers. Moria for example


On the other hand, aerial reconnaissance in the dark over urban ruins isn't a very reliable tactic. Especially when it puts the commander out of touch with his troops.
They are creatures of night however. And the Nazgul can use the Black Breath, Fear, and Despair upon Cohan's troops (through Cohan will most likely resist it)



What if he's holed up in the buildings? Conan is fond of ambushes himself, y'know. He's also experienced at fighting in a variety of terrain. A lot of his adventures take place in hill county, where the one thing you learn fast is to control the high ground. The orcs are going to face some serious competition for those rooftops, I'd think. Moreover, Conan has also spent considerable time as a thief and mercenary in urban settings, so while he won't know the terrain of Osgiliath in particular, he'll be familiar with that type of terrain. He may not be able to fly, but he's good at sneaking around a cityscape and he's smart enough

True, but the WK has a bow, a fell beast and can use his magic upon Cohan's men while directing troops.


The traditional image of Conan is of the gigantic, stupid brute- sort of like Thog, only not as green. But the actual Conan stories tend to make him smart as well as strong- to the point of Marty Stu-hood, often enough. Then again, if you need a man to kill the Witch King, it's going to be hard to manage it with anything less than that kind of strength and cunning.



The traditional image of Conan is of the gigantic, stupid brute- sort of like Thog, only not as green. But the actual Conan stories tend to make him smart as well as strong- to the point of Marty Stu-hood, often enough. Then again, if you need a man to kill the Witch King, it's going to be hard to manage it with anything less than that kind of strength and cunning.

is the comic book (the more brutish one) actually different than the book one?



Faramir was shot with an arrow and afflicted by the Black Breath, but it was a critical plot point that he wasn't mortally wounded. Comatose, yes. Mortally wounded, no. Hence the reason Gandalf worked so hard to stop Denethor from immolating his son on a funeral pyre.

Faramir was shot by an arrow that had been breathed upon by a Nazgul, but shot by a man of harad. And he almost instently went into a deathly coma, so i think thati s pretty much a win for hte WK


Granted, Aragorn came by and pulled him out of the coma two days later, but I think the key is that Faramir wasn't quickly killed. And Conan is almost certainly Faramir's equal in fortitude.
But Faramir was out of the battle slowly dying, even with advanced medics



We should also take into account that the whole "random woman/Conan lover sneaks into Conan's forces to help fight...thus leading to the I am no man speech" is just the type of trite, cliche thing you're likely to see in a Conan story.

Rant incoming.

I think Cohan only has men.




I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that the reason the WK was vulnerable there was that he dropped his defenses in shock at just how stupid that plot line was.

And honestly, what kind of half he-assed protection is that anyway? I mean humans are like one out of ten or more possible races in ME, and he's protected from only half of them. To be perfectly honest, if I'm gonna run around touting invincibility because of some prophecy, I'll probably check to make sure it applies to more than 1/20th of the population first. Heck, a human infant could have probably done him in on the semantic of not being a man yet.
Well actually, considering he lives in a time where women don't fight he is pretty good


1) most of the non human races are ether evil, or too rare to be a real thread. Or elves, in which he is screwed anyways
2) You still need a good anti undead weapon to hurt him
3) Also he is in a time period where only men tend to fight, as well as being a super evil, so he is most likely fine



About the Aragorn driving of the Nazgul at Weathertop, I seem to remember that the Black Riders disliked flame, so he managed to make them retreat for a while.

The other nazgul are weak against fire, the WK has the power to control fire and frost. however as WG said a while ago, the Weathertop situation was a tatical retreat. They had already wounded the Ring bearer with the Morgul blade, no need to keep fighting



In mythology, that kind of highly specific protection is a standard trope, believe it or not. Achilles? Heel. Cuchulain? Died when forced to violate one or the other of two out of his many highly specific geases.

Shakespeare did it- "no man born of woman" would kill Macbeth. Was he supposed to expect some guy who was delivered by Caesarean section to come along and chop his head off? Most fictional characters don't have that kind of genre awareness, and rightly so- high levels of genre awareness only work well in comedy.


Nice note, Tolkien was a reader and critic of Shakespher. he liked the marching trees in macbeth


Let's think about this issue another way. Ignoring prophecies about "no man may kill me," could Aragorn have killed the Witch King in single combat? Quite possibly. He might have lost, but I think he'd have stood a chance.

he expressed fear of him a few times in the book, and Glorfindal and Aragorn at full power couldn't even hinder the Wk, but that was when they had 4-8 other guys.


Pardon me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure if a guy with a heavy rock snuck up on Gandalf while he was sleeping he could probably bash his head in.
Gandalf is immune to non magic weapons when he becomes Gandalf the White, nitpick but i see your point

[Callos_DeTerran]

So your worried about my mental state in a an confused manner while being insulted?

Or possibly insulted about being worried about your mental state and confused.

Or maybe I'm confused about being insulted at worrying about your mental state. Who knows? I sure as heck don't anymore.


Gandalf is immune to non magic weapons when he becomes Gandalf the White, nitpick but i see your point

Gandalf not Gandalf the White. :smalltongue: Or to keep the above example valid for the White 'I'm sure if somebody (coughcoughSauroncoughcough) gave a magic rock to a random guy, then I'm sure if that guy snuck up on Gandalf the White with his heavy magical rock then he could bash his brains in.


As for different between the comic books and books...maybe. The comic books focus more on 'De ACTION and DE BEUATIFUL WOMEN!' since they have a visual medium and they are targeting a teenage male audience so those will draw'em in more and they don't need to focus on Conan's smarter side as much. The books have no visual medium so are free to focus just as much on the 'smarter' side of Conan as well as the violent and lusty side.

[Zenos]

The other nazgul are weak against fire, the WK has the power to control fire and frost. however as WG said a while ago, the Weathertop situation was a tatical retreat. They had already wounded the Ring bearer with the Morgul blade, no need to keep fighting


Excuse me, source please, I've not heard about control of fire and ice.

[EvilElitest]

Or possibly insulted about being worried about your mental state and confused.

I'm glad your concerned

Or maybe I'm confused about being insulted at worrying about your mental state. Who knows? I sure as heck don't anymore.
Now we are all confused together



Gandalf not Gandalf the White. :smalltongue: Or to keep the above example valid for the White 'I'm sure if somebody (coughcoughSauroncoughcough) gave a magic rock to a random guy, then I'm sure if that guy snuck up on Gandalf the White with his heavy magical rock then he could bash his brains in.

Ok, that makes sense.




As for different between the comic books and books...maybe. The comic books focus more on 'De ACTION and DE BEUATIFUL WOMEN!' since they have a visual medium and they are targeting a teenage male audience so those will draw'em in more and they don't need to focus on Conan's smarter side as much. The books have no visual medium so are free to focus just as much on the 'smarter' side of Conan as well as the violent and lusty side.

Are they cannonly connected?



Excuse me, source please, I've not heard about control of fire and ice.
i think its in the Return of the King apendix under the history of Anor/angmar

from
EE

[GoC]

Now see, I for one see that as very rude. EE just answered your question for me, my answer would've very well been the same.
It's just the normal banter.:smalltongue:
EvilElitest is actually a pretty decent (and evil of course) person on the inside.:smalltongue:


I had not much knowledge of the Black Breath... that increases the WKs effectiveness to win. Conan can strike him, and would be crippled, if the BB is in play (and I'm confident it is, unless it too has been nerfed, as a lot of stuff on the WK's side)
We must remember that Aragorn was unaffected.:smallbiggrin:


Conan: Die, evil abomination.
Witch King: Try, skippy.
Conan: AHHHH! (stabs WK with his sword) Ah-hah!
Sword turns to ash, and his right arm is numb.
Conan: wth?
Witch King: Strike one.
Conan: DIE! (Chops with the axe in his left hand) Heh-heh
Axe turns to ash, left arm turns numb
Witch King: Strike two.
Conan: Alright, this is getting annoying. Mind if I borrow your mace.
Witch King: Here you go.
Conan: Thanks. HEEYAH! (Whacks WK with the mace with the mace in his mouth)
Witch King: Ouch, that actually hurt.
Conan: Sure as hell it did. (Mace turns to ash, and his mouth becomes numb) ahhh... ptooey &Phooey&
Witch King: Strike three. My turn. (Plunges his blade into Conan's heart) Sweet dreams.
Conan: (gasps while talking nonsensical words)*Gasp* lufe fading... blecnass cansuing... salf nerratian cantinuing...
His final words were intended to be... Life fading, Blackness consuming, and self narration continuing.
The Witch King died to a single sword strike though.


Faramir was shot by an arrow that had been breathed upon by a Nazgul, but shot by a man of harad. And he almost instently went into a deathly coma, so i think thati s pretty much a win for hte WK
A "deadly dart" from an unknown source actually. And no it doesn't say the arrow was breathed upon.


i think its in the Return of the King apendix under the history of Anor/angmar
*checks*
Nope.

[warty goblin]

In fact I think the actual line was that the dart was (likely) Southron, but definately not Nazgul, for that had it been thrown from a Nazgul it would have killed him within hours.

Now Faramir also had a raging case of the Black Breath, owing to all that riding around under the Nazgul, but his wound was not Nazgul in origin.

As to Aragorn being unaffected by the Black Breath, I assume you are refering to his contact with the Nazgul at Weathertop, but I hardly see this as evidence of the Black Breath's impotancy. For one thing his actual face time with the Nazgul was very short, we are talking minutes tops. For another, he is after all the King of Gondor, and has the specific power to heal people from a variety of nasty effects, including the Black Breath, as later demonstrated. Furthermore there might be an element of intent in the Breath, that is, the Nazgul might need to decide to use it. After all they can come into contact with people without killing them. Humans served under the Witch King, but weren't strung out gibbering wrecks when they arrived at Minas Tirith. If this is the case, which seems increasingly likely to me, then the Nazgul had no reason to start Breathing Blackly at Weathertop, since their primary objective (shanking Frodo) had already been accomplished. Why stay and fight, when your quarry is two and a half weeks from aid, and can (as far as they know) only survive another two or three? Economy of force says that at this point their objective is done, and all else is overkill and a waste of time and energy.

[EvilElitest]

They also take out Merry from long range

The WK fire and frost thing was provided way back in teh Sauron vs. LK thread, and i'm not in the mood to go looking for it, might be in the simeralion under Third age. In any case, good the Wk to see if you find it
from
EE

[Artemician]

Two quotes from the Appendix


...And the chief of the Lossoth said to Arvedui: "Do not mount on this sea-monster[ship]!...stay here till the Witch-King goes home. For in summer his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly and his cold arm is long"
...
Yet the counsel of the Lossoth was good, by chance or by foresight; for the ship had not reached the open sea when a great storm of wind arose, and came with blinding snow out of the North; and it drove the ship back into the ice and piled ice up on it. Even the mariners of Cirdan were helpless, and in the night the ice crush the hull, and the ship floundered.


But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-King turned to flight and passed into the shadows.
...
Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."

[Steven the Lich]

The Witch King died to a single sword strike though. Technically, it was two strikes, the first being anti undead to break the shield, and the second normal just to finish him. (So I believe)
Also note... the sword was in his face... A risky area to attempt, in my view, becuase if you miss, you may end up getting stabbed.


We must remember that Aragorn was unaffected.
Remember Aragorn was of a rare human heritage and the heir of Isildur :smalltongue:


Gandalf not Gandalf the White. Or to keep the above example valid for the White 'I'm sure if somebody (coughcoughSauroncoughcough) gave a magic rock to a random guy, then I'm sure if that guy snuck up on Gandalf the White with his heavy magical rock then he could bash his brains in. First, people just said Gandalf, they did not specify Gandalf the Gray, or Gandalf the White.
Second... doesn't Gandalf leave his eyes open in his sleep? Or is that just in the movie?
Third... I also don't think that Gandalf could not be killed by such means (remember that he fell into an endless pit locked in combat with a demon of fire and shadow, who was servant to an even more ancient and chaotic Dark Lord once? In the next book, he's up and ticking, with a new change of color)
Fourth... a magical rock? Thats the best you can come up with, when Gandalf survived a fiery whip that wrapped around his leg and pulled him into oblivion? Pardon me, but you haven't countered the fact imposed on you that magic in Conan's world is weaker than LotRs (particulary because magic in the latter is faster, while the first needs chanting and such, easily interupted by brutes with swords)

It might protect him from the effects of the Black Shadow and everything but direct contact I agree, and need I remind people of the Morgul blade? I'm sure it can weaken Conan, even if the belt can help him resist it. WK has some seriously aflicting powers than can bring a human down to their knees easily. They can poison weapons just by breathing on them (A fact I just learned in this thread). We have been given no proof that Conan's belt can resist all this, as BB is powerful and epic, and completely alien to the likes of Conan.


The WK fire and frost thing was provided way back in teh Sauron vs. LK thread, and i'm not in the mood to go looking for it, might be in the simeralion under Third age. In any case, good the Wk to see if you find it
I even recall seeing his magical powers somewhere in my 3 in 1LotRs book and/or the Silmarilion.

And for those people declining my aerial anaylsis of the battlefield... Doesn't the WK have darkvision? And even if he doesn't, he and his homies just need to fly about and spread a plague to Conan's men without even accompaning them in battle. Unless Auquileans have immunity to WKs powers, they're screwed (And they don't all have magic imunnity belts, I know that much). :smalltongue:

[JellyPooga]

There seems to have been a lot of talk about this prophecy protecting the Witch King, but where does it say that a prophecy must be correct? A prophecy is just a prediction, not fate or destiny. I could prophecise that I win £1,000,000 tomorrow; it doesn't mean I will.

Anyway, even if the prophecy protection does hold, Conan is not a man...on a masculinity scale of 1-10 he's in the region of 50, which makes him so much more than just a man:smalltongue:

[Ossian]

Everyone seems to forget the rule of translation. Look at it this way: if you are the next guy with no powers and walk in Cartoonia, you might well become the "cartooned" version of yourself, and people can drop refrigerators on your head from the 5th floor, to the only avail of giving you a headache and a dance of goldfishes and stars around your temple for a few seconds.

This is even more true the further the universes involved in the VS thread are apart.

Scene 1.

We are in the Frozy wastes of the north, vanaheim. On his way to retrieve the long lost eye of Xaxxorath, Conan and his 500 aquilonians (no need for magic belts here) are ambushed by the evil mind behind the plague of Shem: the Witch King.

ALL of the Aquilonians are hoplessly slain, until Conan is the only one standing on the battlefield. His blade is drenched with fuming black blood and his chainmail is in tatters.

The orcs circle around him, making sneaky movements, almost scaredto approach this walking death.

"we kill big man good....zen we eats hiz fleshh!!! gnawgnaw!"
"Approach one by one, or all at once. I care not. All I know is many of you won´t se tomorrow. I shall die upon a pile of carcasses!!!!"

hilarity is about to ensue, when the WK steps up to Conan. The goblins pee their pants. Conan´s underwear is dry, on the other hand.
Sepulchral voice ON

"Leave this puny mortal to my morgul blade!"
"I fear not your blade, horror from the abyss of Arallu! And there is where you shall return. taste my steel!"

they duel, trade a couple of blows. [insert howardian macho-flavored digression on Conan´s inextinguishable vitality and furious rage. even the WK is a bit surprised]. Conan, still, is about to die. His flesh is froyen. His blood is all but gone. His spirit on the point of breaking. The last vicious blow is about to land, when Conan sees a [insert magic gimmick tied to the WK´s vitality]under the cape of the Wk himself, or carried by a goblin some 40 yards away. Usual desperate final effort. Usual betting everything on luck and ardour. Conan throws his 20 punds heavy bastard sword picked on the battlefield from a corpse. It hits the [gimmick/philactery]. WK dies or melts in a puddle of blackness and evil, swearing to return one day. Goblis flee. Conan stares coldly into the void. A tree withers under his look.

Scene 2.

Conan is a Rebellious King from the Kingdom of Aquilonia, north-east of Mordor.

Aquilonians and orcs slay each other. Aquilonians are proud, badass, basically spartans from 300.

The WK screams. Aquilonians cower in fear and flee. Conan stands, aone and macho. Hair flowing. Stares coldly at the WK. You get the idea.

WK is amused, steps closer to the Barbarian. Conan feels cold.

WK breaths and utters "thy blade is broken!" . Conan´s blade shatters. Conan´s blad arm aches a bit.

Conan picks a spear from the battlefield. Charges head-down the WK. the spear, too, shatters against the WK´s body. Conan spear arm is broken.

The WK screams, louder, at point blank.

Conan pees his pants.

The WK finishes him with a blow from that anchor on a chain he had the audacity of calling "mace" (understatement of the century)

Conan dies.

-------------------------------

Does it work ?

Cheers

ossian

[Callos_DeTerran]

First, people just said Gandalf, they did not specify Gandalf the Gray, or Gandalf the White.
Second... doesn't Gandalf leave his eyes open in his sleep? Or is that just in the movie?
Third... I also don't think that Gandalf could not be killed by such means (remember that he fell into an endless pit locked in combat with a demon of fire and shadow, who was servant to an even more ancient and chaotic Dark Lord once? In the next book, he's up and ticking, with a new change of color)
Fourth... a magical rock? Thats the best you can come up with, when Gandalf survived a fiery whip that wrapped around his leg and pulled him into oblivion? Pardon me, but you haven't countered the fact imposed on you that magic in Conan's world is weaker than LotRs (particulary because magic in the latter is faster, while the first needs chanting and such, easily interupted by brutes with swords)

1) EvilElitest specified the White was immune to non-magical weapons and what not, hence the change to include magical rock.
2) Er...even if you sleep with your eyes open (not sure if that's a movie thing or not...or if it was even in the movies, which one are you talking about?) theres the fact your only looking the direction that your head is pointed.
3) Nobody knows what happened in that battle. They landed in a lake, the Balrog schlurped off, Gandalf gave chase, toss in more battling (with the question of how much/did he get hurt here or if it was the hypothermia that got him), then bam change of color....Wait...didn't he die to get that change of color or am I thinking of something else?
4)Er...it should be noted the whip was just on fire and wrapped around his leg. The most that would have happened is burning of the legs, thats not exactly fatal there (And this is where the LotR fans swoop down on me and tell me that's its not normal fire or something, but I'm assuming it is). And during said fall (since we have the movie's visual and no actual scene in the book detailing his fall except for Gandalf telling the story) he was riding the demon bouncing off the walls and plunging into the lake...Where was the fatal injury there? >.> I think I missed it because Gandalf used a giant demon as a pillow for his landing and descent. Aside from that if he wasn't worried about things like being stabbed or having his head bashed in he wouldn't know how to fight. Also, I was just proving a point that if somebody snuck up on Gandalf and bashed his head in, it doesn't really prove he is a weak magic-user just a very surprised and deceased one.
5) I think this needs it's own point. I never claimed Conan magic was stronger then LotR magic since I don't know enough about it to make an accurate statement, I've only said it depends on what example your looking at and in any case whatsoever Conan still beats those magic-users he comes across without fail (though sometimes it takes a time or two). Just like I said I can't claim which is faster (an act of will really can't be measured but again, specific example there). As for chanting, I SPECIFIED that three examples of the ones I knew needed chanting and that the chanting was only to SUSTAIN the magic happening since it started just as the chant did.


I agree, and need I remind people of the Morgul blade? I'm sure it can weaken Conan, even if the belt can help him resist it. WK has some seriously aflicting powers than can bring a human down to their knees easily. They can poison weapons just by breathing on them (A fact I just learned in this thread). We have been given no proof that Conan's belt can resist all this, as BB is powerful and epic, and completely alien to the likes of Conan.

Powerful and epic and completely alien to the likes of Conan? Are you kidding me? Half of the unedited Conan stories (which were editted to dilute the connection) can be easily called part of the Cthulhu Mythos and the Hyperborean Cycle. He's found alters of unspeakable evil that reeked blasphemy and had impossible angles that would have broken a lesser man's mind that were actually altars to beings such as Dagon, Cthulhu, and Azathoth. And if you haven't noticed something about stories involving any of the above, they NEVER have happy endings yet not only is Conan alive and mentally well he probably actually profited a couple of times from those encounters. Which is bizarre in and of itself. BB being powerful? Undoubtedly. Epic? Well...I'd debate that but it's close. Completely alien to the likes of Conan? Hardly. Different, not completely alien and not the worst thing he's come across either.


And for those people declining my aerial anaylsis of the battlefield... Doesn't the WK have darkvision? And even if he doesn't, he and his homies just need to fly about and spread a plague to Conan's men without even accompaning them in battle. Unless Auquileans have immunity to WKs powers, they're screwed (And they don't all have magic imunnity belts, I know that much). :smalltongue:

There are no other Nazgul with the WK and if flys overhead enough eventually somebody (most likely Conan) will shoot him out of the air....which brings to mind another funny image, this one being the WK dying in the fall. (Which is also unlikely but still funny.)

[GoC]

Technically, it was two strikes, the first being anti undead to break the shield, and the second normal just to finish him. (So I believe)
Also note... the sword was in his face... A risky area to attempt, in my view, becuase if you miss, you may end up getting stabbed.
Point.


Remember Aragorn was of a rare human heritage and the heir of Isildur :smalltongue:
Yeah, but at least it can be resisted.
WG: It doesn't cost them anything to breath and they take out a very powerful fighter (though they probably didn't know he was the king of Gondor).


Second... doesn't Gandalf leave his eyes open in his sleep? Or is that just in the movie?
He doesn't in The Hobbit but that's only partly canon.

Third... I also don't think that Gandalf could not be killed by such means (remember that he fell into an endless pit locked in combat with a demon of fire and shadow, who was servant to an even more ancient and chaotic Dark Lord once? In the next book, he's up and ticking, with a new change of color)
He was killed but resurrected by the direct intervention of Eru.


Pardon me, but you haven't countered the fact imposed on you that magic in Conan's world is weaker than LotRs (particulary because magic in the latter is faster, while the first needs chanting and such, easily interupted by brutes with swords)
You must prove that it's weaker (which given our lack on knowledge on the Conan universe might be hard). LotR magic is generally very slow with an indirect influence. Melian with her wood, Galandriel with hers, Elrond, Sauron with his corruption, ect.
Fast magic is generally not very powerful. Gandalf's fires, his holy light, Luthien's sleep cloak (which is touch range, her mass version requires time to use) and the Witch King's sword sundering.
Their special abilities on the other hand are fairly good. Saruman's voice, Sauron's shapeshifting (before he used it up), the witch king's sword destruction (speaking of which Conan should wield a club!) and his black breath (very useful against armies).


They can poison weapons just by breathing on them (A fact I just learned in this thread).
Do you believe everything you hear?
I pointed out that this was false in my previous post. Feel free to re-read the battle to check (you say you have the book).

“Faramir! Faramir!” men cried, weeping in the streets. But he did not answer, and they bore him away up the winding road to the Citadel and his father. Even as the Nazgûl had swerved aside from the onset of the White Rider, there came flying a deadly dart, and Faramir, as he held at bay a mounted champion of Harad, had fallen to the earth. Only the charge of Dol Amroth had saved him from the red southland swords that would have hewed him as he lay.


I even recall seeing his magical powers somewhere in my 3 in 1LotRs book and/or the Silmarilion.
Could you help me find it then?


And for those people declining my aerial anaylsis of the battlefield... Doesn't the WK have darkvision? And even if he doesn't, he and his homies just need to fly about and spread a plague to Conan's men without even accompaning them in battle. Unless Auquileans have immunity to WKs powers, they're screwed (And they don't all have magic imunnity belts, I know that much). :smalltongue:
I'd give the batle to the witch king because of this.^


The WK fire and frost thing was provided way back in teh Sauron vs. LK thread, and i'm not in the mood to go looking for it, might be in the simeralion under Third age. In any case, good the Wk to see if you find it
from
EE
I've searched through my pdf version for Witch and Nazgul (and I also can't remember seeing that when I last read it). No mention of it.

Ossian: Triple post.:smalleek:

[Mr. Scaly]

*Witch King, upon seeing that Conan doesn't fall over peeing himself in his presence, looks him over for magical items and protections. Finding the belt, he promptly sunders it.*

[EvilElitest]

1) The WK does light his sword on fire with magic i would like to remind you
2) Remember, Aragorn at no points makes direct contact with the Nazgul.
3 Gandalf doesn't die from the fall. Nor from the balrog. He dies (somewhat) from teh Mountain that falls after the balgrog dies
4) How is the hobbit not cannon?
5) Gandalf sleeps with his eyes open, but he still is sleeping. Pippin steals the seeing stone from him then. Gandalf is more aware than most, but still sleeping
6) Morgul blade is pretty nasty against anyone, even Cohan
7) Does the Cohan RPG count? Or the movie? what counts and what doesn't?
from
EE

[GoC]

1) The WK does light his sword on fire with magic i would like to remind you
2) Remember, Aragorn at no points makes direct contact with the Nazgul.
3 Gandalf doesn't die from the fall. Nor from the balrog. He dies (somewhat) from teh Mountain that falls after the balgrog dies
4) How is the hobbit not cannon?
5) Gandalf sleeps with his eyes open, but he still is sleeping. Pippin steals the seeing stone from him then. Gandalf is more aware than most, but still sleeping
6) Morgul blade is pretty nasty against anyone, even Cohan
7) Does the Cohan RPG count? Or the movie? what counts and what doesn't?
from
EE

1) Can't recall that. When does he do this?
3) That fall is very suspect. Remember that the length of the fall contradicts Tolkien's own map regarding the size of Middle Earth.
4) "Partly canon" means that The Hobbit was not originally meant to be part of Middle Earth and certain things are different.
6) Yes, almost always fatal unless you're immune to such things or can remove the tiny point.
8) No, you don't have to respond to each of these.:smallwink:

[Somebloke]

A few points in favor of Conan:

Firstly, Hyborea is a low-magic setting; however, it is only marginally less so than middle earth. While there are far less non-human races, there seem to be (slightly) more magic-users, even if magic is of the 'make terrible pacts with the beings from the cold reaches of space to birth a demon childe' rather than 'fireball'.

Secondly, the Aquilonians have a strong martial history and are at the very least as capable in combat as the Gondorians- certainly their regular troops could hold their own against four times their number of orcs.

Thirdly, Conan seems to damn well attract sorcerers, ancient demons and unnatural things that cannot be like a lightbulb attracts moths. Seriously. In a world as magic-starved as Hyborea, he bumps into them every adventure. And he always seems to stumble across some relic, information ally, fact or somesuch that enables him to crush an enemy, or at the very least escape a Fate Worse Than Death. I would not put it past him to capture Eowin as a slave, let her fall in love with him and then have her stab the Witch King in the back while he -manfully- grapples it. Lord knows more convoluted things have happened in the original series.

[EvilElitest]

1) Can't recall that. When does he do this?
3) That fall is very suspect. Remember that the length of the fall contradicts Tolkien's own map regarding the size of Middle Earth.
4) "Partly canon" means that The Hobbit was not originally meant to be part of Middle Earth and certain things are different.
6) Yes, almost always fatal unless you're immune to such things or can remove the tiny point.
8) No, you don't have to respond to each of these.:smallwink:

1) The breaking of the Gate
3) Um, tolkien's map isn't 3D nor cross sectioned you realize, the fall can be as freaking deep as he wants it to be.

4) It and LotRs are generally considered the most cannon, through his notes have a lot inside
6) Which requires a major magic user to pull it off with all of his energy in his sacred stronghold surrounded by his best equiptment, with an epic wizard and even then it was a close call
8) But if you don't, then Cthulu will eat you

Somebloke, what kind of monsters does Cohan encounter?
from
EE

[Somebloke]

1) The breaking of the Gate
3) Um, tolkien's map isn't 3D nor cross sectioned you realize, the fall can be as freaking deep as he wants it to be.

4) It and LotRs are generally considered the most cannon, through his notes have a lot inside
6) Which requires a major magic user to pull it off with all of his energy in his sacred stronghold surrounded by his best equiptment, with an epic wizard and even then it was a close call
8) But if you don't, then Cthulu will eat you

Somebloke, what kind of monsters does Cohan encounter?
from
EE

Let's see: from the original stories by E.Howard,

We are talking mostly either the scattered remnants of pre-human monsters (the setting was a fictional period before Sumer and Egypt but after the rise of civilisation) such as ape-men and huge, dragonlike lizards; or demons (creatures pulled out of the ether between worlds by sorcerers; for an idea, it is important to recall that Howard and Lovecraft collaborated with each other a great deal). These tended to be horribly powerful, but dependent on spells and artifacts to maintain their existence. Conan also fought lots of sorcerers (technically very rare and dangerous- almost all magic was essentially unnatural and ultimately evil, as opposed to Conan's barbaric vitality and virility).

Conan tends to defeat mortals and many sorcerers/horrors through sheer skill and fighting talent; against greater opponents, he often manages to get by on luck, cleverness and sympathetic characters handing him the means to defeat his opponents (ie, plot armour). That being said, a number of adventures end with him running for his life (often with a girl over his shoulder) against something that he simply cannot fight- he is not super- human, in the original writings at least. So, there is a precedent for the Witch-King winning, if not killing him outright.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Let's see: from the original stories by E.Howard,

We are talking mostly either the scattered remnants of pre-human monsters (the setting was a fictional period before Sumer and Egypt but after the rise of civilisation) such as ape-men and huge, dragonlike lizards; or demons (creatures pulled out of the ether between worlds by sorcerers; for an idea, it is important to recall that Howard and Lovecraft collaborated with each other a great deal). These tended to be horribly powerful, but dependent on spells and artifacts to maintain their existence. Conan also fought lots of sorcerers (technically very rare and dangerous- almost all magic was essentially unnatural and ultimately evil, as opposed to Conan's barbaric vitality and virility).

Conan tends to defeat mortals and many sorcerers/horrors through sheer skill and fighting talent; against greater opponents, he often manages to get by on luck, cleverness and sympathetic characters handing him the means to defeat his opponents (ie, plot armour). That being said, a number of adventures end with him running for his life (often with a girl over his shoulder) against something that he simply cannot fight- he is not super- human, in the original writings at least. So, there is a precedent for the Witch-King winning, if not killing him outright.

Huh, I was way off base wasn't I? Well at least theres more of a Conan expert here then there was before. Does it count as a win for the WK if Conan flees a hopeless battle with Eowin and/or Arwen thrown over one shoulder? Cause seriously I'd count it as a win for Conan if he escapes with one/both of those two and only lost 500 guys to do it. :smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

Huh, I was way off base wasn't I? Well at least theres more of a Conan expert here then there was before. Does it count as a win for the WK if Conan flees a hopeless battle with Eowin and/or Arwen thrown over one shoulder? Cause seriously I'd count it as a win for Conan if he escapes with one/both of those two and only lost 500 guys to do it. :smalltongue:

If your write a fan fiction on this i swear i'm going to shank you
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

If your write a fan fiction on this i swear i'm going to shank you
from
EE

...That idea is made of AWESOME and WIN....unfortunately I haven't paid my shanking insurance this month and I'm far to paranoid about midgets* shanking me to follow through with that admittedly awesome idea.


*I theorize that EE is in fact a hobbit with internet access and the taint of evil in him.

[EvilElitest]

...That idea is made of AWESOME and WIN....unfortunately I haven't paid my shanking insurance this month and I'm far to paranoid about midgets* shanking me to follow through with that admittedly awesome idea.

If you ever write that, after putting it oneline, stop for a second. Put your left finger on your third rib. Then think about what you have done. The mental guilt of what monster you have created will be so intense that you will realize that you have been mentall and morally shanked. Thrity years later, you will die of lupis




*I theorize that EE is in fact a hobbit with internet access and the taint of evil in him.

[/QUOTE]
Close. I'm a Corsican/French Emperor with internet access and the taint of evil in him. As everybody knows, Corsican is a sub type of hobbit, if you name is Napoleon


They get LA Awesome, and CR too cool for the system
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

If you ever write that, after putting it oneline, stop for a second. Put your left finger on your third rib. Then think about what you have done. The mental guilt of what monster you have created will be so intense that you will realize that you have been mentall and morally shanked. Thrity years later, you will die of lupis

...That'd be such a great threat if I was capable of feeling guilt. :smalltongue: Hmmm...now how to 'logically' have Conan meet Arwen and Eowin during this batlle....*wanders off to plot and type*

[EvilElitest]

...That'd be such a great threat if I was capable of feeling guilt. :smalltongue: Hmmm...now how to 'logically' have Conan meet Arwen and Eowin during this batlle....*wanders off to plot and type*

Don't make me break out the


"SHANK OF SHAME!!!!!!!"

basically it makes you act like Scappy Doe
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Don't make me break out the


"SHANK OF SHAME!!!!!!!"

basically it makes you act like Scappy Doe
from
EE

AAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHHHH! *scurries backwards up the wall hissing like a cockroach with head spinning completely around before entering an airduct obviously too small to fit in.*

[EvilElitest]

AAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHHHH! *scurries backwards up the wall hissing like a cockroach with head spinning completely around before entering an airduct obviously too small to fit in.*

First off, you should totally sig the shank of shame thing

And damn your airduct that are obviously too small to fit, you ahve hindered my plans for the last time.

I counter with the Evil Over lord list
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

First off, you should totally sig the shank of shame thing

Sure, why not? :smalltongue: I haven't changed my sig recently enough. Which part though...?


And damn your airduct that are obviously too small to fit, you ahve hindered my plans for the last time. For i have read the evil overlord list..............sadly i can't fit in them ether
from
EE

*Hisses with unholy enjoyment within the safe confines of the airduct...until the heat comes on.*

[EvilElitest]

Sure, why not? :smalltongue: I haven't changed my sig recently enough. Which part though...?


It is a quote of pride
Thanks, this part would be most funny

Don't make me break out the shank of shame"
It makes you act like Scrappy Do



*Hisses with unholy enjoyment within the safe confines of the airduct...until the heat comes on.*
Sadly, other people thought of the idea of hiding in the air ducts before you did. Remember the Pale man from Pan's labryinth? Yeah.........i'll get a sponge
from
EE

[warty goblin]

If you ever write that, after putting it oneline, stop for a second. Put your left finger on your third rib. Then think about what you have done. The mental guilt of what monster you have created will be so intense that you will realize that you have been mentall and morally shanked. Thrity years later, you will die of lupis
EE

Close, you will think it is lupis, but it is not lupis. It is never lupis. Not even then. Even if it is lupis it is not lupis, but a microtumor which merely acts like lupis.

Also, philosophical question, if a fanboy writes a fanfiction but doesn't post it on the internet, does the fanfiction actually exist?

[EvilElitest]

Close, you will think it is lupis, but it is not lupis. It is never lupis. Not even then. Even if it is lupis it is not lupis, but a microtumor which merely acts like lupis.

There was once a god of Lupis actually. He was also the god of Flump before that. And just when 4E was announced, he became god of gnomes. You know who he is



Also, philosophical question, if a fanboy writes a fanfiction but doesn't post it on the internet, does the fanfiction actually exist?
It does, in the boundries of hell and in that fanbody's soul
from
EE

[Dervag]

If you ever write that, after putting it oneline, stop for a second. Put your left finger on your third rib. Then think about what you have done. The mental guilt of what monster you have created will be so intense that you will realize that you have been mentall and morally shanked. Thrity years later, you will die of lupisEh, I dunno. I don't think it's such a bad idea.

[/QUOTE]Close. I'm a Corsican/French Emperor with internet access and the taint of evil in him. As everybody knows, Corsican is a sub type of hobbit, if you name is Napoleon[/quote]Oh, dear; he's going to be one of those.


Close, you will think it is lupis, but it is not lupis. It is never lupis. Not even then. Even if it is lupis it is not lupis, but a microtumor which merely acts like lupis.

Also, philosophical question, if a fanboy writes a fanfiction but doesn't post it on the internet, does the fanfiction actually exist?Yes. Fanfiction existed before the Internet, though its only avenue for publication was, well, publication.

All the Internet does is lower the barrier against publication to the point where a much larger fraction of the fan community can make their work publically available.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Sadly, other people thought of the idea of hiding in the air ducts before you did. Remember the Pale man from Pan's labryinth? Yeah.........i'll get a sponge
from
EE

Hmm...if I was trapped in an airduct like that I'm pretty sure my eyes would move down to my hands and I'd develop a fondness for eating children too..poor guy.

[EvilElitest]

Eh, I dunno. I don't think it's such a bad idea.

Only if Cohan kills Liv Tailor.



[/QUOTE]Close. I'm a Corsican/French Emperor with internet access and the taint of evil in him. As everybody knows, Corsican is a sub type of hobbit, if you name is Napoleon[/quote]Oh, dear; he's going to be one of those.
Eh?



Yes. Fanfiction existed before the Internet, though its only avenue for publication was, well, publication.

All the Internet does is lower the barrier against publication to the point where a much larger fraction of the fan community can make their work publically available.
in the first edition of Dante's infernal, he mentions another level of hell, where bad authors are forced to read an endless stream of fan fictions
from
EE

[warty goblin]

There was once a god of Lupis actually. He was also the god of Flump before that. And just when 4E was announced, he became god of gnomes. You know who he is


It does, in the boundries of hell and in that fanbody's soul
from
EE

Ah yes, birdfish!

Wait, fanboys have souls? I mean sure, there will be the occasional fanboy with a soul, but in general I thought they were animated by perverse lust for fictional characters.

And unpublished FF clearly exists in the boundaries of hell, how could I forget. In fact it even spawns it's own type of demon:

FF Demon
Large Outsider (Evil, more Evil, Disturbing)
Always Chaotic Evil
HD 1 (40 HP)
AC 15
DR 3
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 70
INT 8
WIS 5
CHA-- (has no CHA score, cannot use CHA based skills or abilities)
Attack: Flame of Irrational Loyalty: +15 (2d10 Fire)
Full Attack: Flame of Irrational Loyalty or claw + 1 (1d4+1)
Special Actions:
Godwin's Law: As a free action usable once per combat round after at least two combat rounds, the FF Demon will use a Hitler/Nazi comparison completely out of context. Every creature within thirty feet must make a DC 15 Intelligence check. If they fail they immediately flee the area in disgust. If they succeed combat continues, if they succeed by at least five points, then they can attempt another DC 15 Intelligence check to show the complete falicy of the argument, causing all non FF demon allies of the FF demon to flee the area in disgust.
Immunity to Reason Any and all attacks, spells or special abilities with the [Law] descriptor have no effect on the FF demon.
Flame Immunity: You could drop the FF demon into the core of the earth and the fire wouldn't effect it, and in fact would only increase its perverse strength. Any attack with the [Fire] or [Flame] descriptor automatically heals the FF demon for 1/2 damage.
Acid Immunity: Poisonous vitrol has a similar lack of effect. The FF demon has seen the worst the internet has to offer, all [Acid] attacks do no damage.
Anarchic Tongue: Merely understanding a FF demon takes great skill and mental fortitude. Any character not fluent in either the 1337 or ch@Room languages must pass a DC15 Intelligence check or take 1d6 temporary points of INT damage. Since the FF demon never stops talking, make this check at the end of every round.
DR 3: A FF demon might be easy to hit, but has a remarkable ability to shrug off punishment
Alt Account: Once per day a FF demon can create an exact copy of itself under a similar but still somewhat different account name. Every combat round there is a cumulative 10% chance that a Moderator will notice this and Banhammer both the FF demon and the Alt. In addition, if the original FF demon is destroyed, any Alt Accounts are destroyed with it. An Alt Account FF demon cannot use its Alt Account ability. Due to the risk, even the primitive brain of the FF demon realizes the stupidity involved in using this ability, and only will do so when badly outnumbered.

A horrible figure with skinny limbs and a plump body, pale skinned and covered in zits shambles towards you, mouthing a constant stream of near gibberish

FF demons haunt the outer reaches of Internet hell, and often form vast, pulsating colonies or 'fan sites' around particular media clusters, which they worship and draw strength from. They can often be placeted easily enough by paying homage to whatever media they serve, but any criticism, no matter how small or sensible, real or percieved, will cause them to attack. Occasionally two media clusters with vastly different tropes and memes will drift close to each other, and a so called 'flamewar' will occur. Due to the FF demon's almost complete immunity to the attacks of other FF demons, casualties tend to be low, although the fights can be extremely messy, and drawn out. Oftentimes order is only restored after a group of Greater Moderator Demons brings down the Banhammer. Trolls thrive off of this carnage however, and often lure groups of FF demons into combat with each other, all while trying to avoid the wrath of the Greater Moderators. FF demons are seldom encountered alone, and tend to travel in groups of at least three, if there are fewer, they will use their Alt account skill to raise this number.

[GoC]

1) The breaking of the Gate
3) Um, tolkien's map isn't 3D nor cross sectioned you realize, the fall can be as freaking deep as he wants it to be.

4) It and LotRs are generally considered the most cannon, through his notes have a lot inside
6) Which requires a major magic user to pull it off with all of his energy in his sacred stronghold surrounded by his best equiptment, with an epic wizard and even then it was a close call
8) But if you don't, then Cthulu will eat you

Somebloke, what kind of monsters does Cohan encounter?
from
EE

1) It mentions a long pale sword but nothing on fiery or icy swords.
3) Middle Earth is a sphere and Gandalf falling for three days means he went more than double the diameter of Middle Earth during his fall. I've mentioned this before btw.
6) Or a skilled modern surgeon with a hospital but point taken. I doubt Conan is willing to cut his own arm off.
8) And if I do The Luggage will get me! Looks like I can't win.:smallfrown:

warty goblin: That's so awesome.:smallcool:
Post it in Homebrew! You should also stat out the trolls...:smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

Hmm...if I was trapped in an airduct like that I'm pretty sure my eyes would move down to my hands and I'd develop a fondness for eating children too..poor guy.

Well now that your living in my airducts, you'll make a cute couple. Which brings the question to mind, what are each of your genders?

Ah yes, birdfish!

The true gods


Wait, fanboys have souls? I mean sure, there will be the occasional fanboy with a soul, but in general I thought they were animated by perverse lust for fictional characters.
ah, the same way Fratboys are animated by a perverse lust for beer



And unpublished FF clearly exists in the boundaries of hell, how could I forget. In fact it even spawns it's own type of demon:

I bow to the genuis that is WG


FF Demon
Large Outsider (Evil, more Evil, Disturbing)
Always Chaotic Evil
HD 1 (40 HP)
AC 15
DR 3
STR 10
DEX 15
CON 70
INT 8
WIS 5
CHA-- (has no CHA score, cannot use CHA based skills or abilities)
Attack: Flame of Irrational Loyalty: +15 (2d10 Fire)
Full Attack: Flame of Irrational Loyalty or claw + 1 (1d4+1)
Special Actions:
Godwin's Law: As a free action usable once per combat round after at least two combat rounds, the FF Demon will use a Hitler/Nazi comparison completely out of context. Every creature within thirty feet must make a DC 15 Intelligence check. If they fail they immediately flee the area in disgust. If they succeed combat continues, if they succeed by at least five points, then they can attempt another DC 15 Intelligence check to show the complete falicy of the argument, causing all non FF demon allies of the FF demon to flee the area in disgust.
Immunity to Reason Any and all attacks, spells or special abilities with the [Law] descriptor have no effect on the FF demon.
Flame Immunity: You could drop the FF demon into the core of the earth and the fire wouldn't effect it, and in fact would only increase its perverse strength. Any attack with the [Fire] or [Flame] descriptor automatically heals the FF demon for 1/2 damage.
Acid Immunity: Poisonous vitrol has a similar lack of effect. The FF demon has seen the worst the internet has to offer, all [Acid] attacks do no damage.
Anarchic Tongue: Merely understanding a FF demon takes great skill and mental fortitude. Any character not fluent in either the 1337 or ch@Room languages must pass a DC15 Intelligence check or take 1d6 temporary points of INT damage. Since the FF demon never stops talking, make this check at the end of every round.
DR 3: A FF demon might be easy to hit, but has a remarkable ability to shrug off punishment
Alt Account: Once per day a FF demon can create an exact copy of itself under a similar but still somewhat different account name. Every combat round there is a cumulative 10% chance that a Moderator will notice this and Banhammer both the FF demon and the Alt. In addition, if the original FF demon is destroyed, any Alt Accounts are destroyed with it. An Alt Account FF demon cannot use its Alt Account ability. Due to the risk, even the primitive brain of the FF demon realizes the stupidity involved in using this ability, and only will do so when badly outnumbered.

1) You've made Thread ninja, vs. thread veteran (sauron side), flaming troll and Fanfiction. We should make a whole team
2) Shouldn't this have a few attacks, such as being able to spawn a mary sue, wall banger novels and flaming attack
3) i like the sock puppet reference



A horrible figure with skinny limbs and a plump body, pale skinned and covered in zits shambles towards you, mouthing a constant stream of near gibberish
Wearing a shirt with its favorite character on it




FF demons haunt the outer reaches of Internet hell, and often form vast, pulsating colonies or 'fan sites' around particular media clusters, which they worship and draw strength from. They can often be placeted easily enough by paying homage to whatever media they serve, but any criticism, no matter how small or sensible, real or percieved, will cause them to attack. Occasionally two media clusters with vastly different tropes and memes will drift close to each other, and a so called 'flamewar' will occur. Due to the FF demon's almost complete immunity to the attacks of other FF demons, casualties tend to be low, although the fights can be extremely messy, and drawn out. Oftentimes order is only restored after a group of Greater Moderator Demons brings down the Banhammer. Trolls thrive off of this carnage however, and often lure groups of FF demons into combat with each other, all while trying to avoid the wrath of the Greater Moderators. FF demons are seldom encountered alone, and tend to travel in groups of at least three, if there are fewer, they will use their Alt account skill to raise this number.

We should make an internet game.

ALso real fans are often drawn into this crowd by mistake




1) It mentions a long pale sword but nothing on fiery or icy swords.
3) Middle Earth is a sphere and Gandalf falling for three days means he went more than double the diameter of Middle Earth during his fall. I've mentioned this before btw.
6) Or a skilled modern surgeon with a hospital but point taken. I doubt Conan is willing to cut his own arm off.
8) And if I do The Luggage will get me! Looks like I can't win.

When he confronts gandalf, flaming sword
2) and i've contered this, we don't know how wide middle earth is
6) Um, the magic of the blade is half of the trouble. It moves in the body
8) why not quite while you only somewhat behind
from
EE

from
EE

[GoC]

When he confronts gandalf, flaming sword
2) and i've contered this, we don't know how wide middle earth is
6) Um, the magic of the blade is half of the trouble. It moves in the body
8) why not quite while you only somewhat behind
from
EE

from
EE

1) Sorry, not there.
2) I had a lovely map of all of Middle Earth after it got turned into a sphere but as it appears to have disappeared and google was no help this (http://www.geocities.com/robertpetrone/arda.jpg) will have to do.
6) Not quite going at the speed of sound though. It took several days to move less than 5cms.:smalltongue:
8) Behind? As far as I can tell I'm in the lead by a good 500 meters.:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

1) Sorry, not there.
2) I had a lovely map of all of Middle Earth after it got turned into a sphere but as it appears to have disappeared and google was no help this (http://www.geocities.com/robertpetrone/arda.jpg) will have to do.
6) Not quite going at the speed of sound though. It took several days to move less than 5cms.:smalltongue:
8) Behind? As far as I can tell I'm in the lead by a good 500 meters.:smalltongue:

1) Yes, it is, flame along the blade.
2) Not a cannon map however. I have another like it, but very different geography. We don't know how wide middle earth's world is
6) Magic cursed blade that was activily turning him incorpral.
8) your running in the wrong direction


Oh and WG, i want to state myself in this internet world.
from
EE

[GoC]

1) Yes, it is, flame along the blade.
2) Not a cannon map however. I have another like it, but very different geography. We don't know how wide middle earth's world is
6) Magic cursed blade that was activily turning him incorpral.
8) your running in the wrong direction
1) Then you're going to have to quote that passage because frankly I don't believe you.
2) Yes, the original I had was canon though. Do you have another map? It is said that Tolkien's stories take place on earth a long time ago. that gives us a diameter.
6) Your point? It can still be extracted.
8) Looks like we're running different races.

[EvilElitest]

1) Then you're going to have to quote that passage because frankly I don't believe you.
2) Yes, the original I had was canon though. Do you have another map? It is said that Tolkien's stories take place on earth a long time ago. that gives us a diameter.
6) Your point? It can still be extracted.
8) Looks like we're running different races.

1) "Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
The Return of the King: "The Siege of Gondor," p. 103
2) cannon? Well i'll believe that when i see it, where is walking Target. My map shows the undying lands and ME, but that is only on one half of the earth
6) But what kept the fragment from killing Frodo was magical healing, the weapon is tainting the person in question
8) No, your just running yours backwards
from
EE
8)

[Steven the Lich]

There is so much I agree with EE on this. For one, yes, magical healing is required to remove the morgul poison. Why did you think that the group was eager to get Frodo to the elves?
The map I don't exactly trust... Did you notice one of those kingdoms was named Endor? Like the planet Endor from Star Wars... and I don't recall reading of the Hyarmenor at all. I'm no expect of Middle earth cartography, however... Still, I'd rather a more detailed map, and one that is actually cannon.


2) Yes, the original I had was canon though. Do you have another map? It is said that Tolkien's stories take place on earth a long time ago. that gives us a diameter. Yep... that sure as heck gives us a diameter. I wouldn't say it is true though, unless if Tolkien himself said it himself, I think that is just rumors.


There are no other Nazgul with the WK and if flys overhead enough eventually somebody (most likely Conan) will shoot him out of the air....which brings to mind another funny image, this one being the WK dying in the fall. (Which is also unlikely but still funny.)
Even so, the WK can fly over them and spread the Black Breath.
And I seriously doubt Conan has that good aim, to shoot something in the night far above him, likely. Also hard to shoot a moving target, even harder to shoot one flying.


Powerful and epic and completely alien to the likes of Conan? Are you kidding me? He's found alters of unspeakable evil that reeked blasphemy and had impossible angles that would have broken a lesser man's mind that were actually altars to beings such as Dagon, Cthulhu, and Azathoth. And if you haven't noticed something about stories involving any of the above, they NEVER have happy endings yet not only is Conan alive and mentally well he probably actually profited a couple of times from those encounters. Which is bizarre in and of itself. BB being powerful? Undoubtedly. Epic? Well...I'd debate that but it's close. Completely alien to the likes of Conan? Hardly. Different, not completely alien and not the worst thing he's come across either. Good point... but it is unlike anything Conan has experienced... what foes did he attack involve a curse on him that would turn his weapon to ash, and make his arm completely numb and useless? He is familiar with most evils, but not the evil in Middle Earth. Therefore... alien.

And downright, Black Breath is epic, an arrow breathed upon by the Nazgul sent Faramir into a deathly coma that took a powerful wizard to wake him up from. And even after the siege was over, a good deal of the defenders of Gondor died from the BB that was spreaded when the Nazgul flew over them.

Oh, and a point that Mr. Scaly brought up.

*Witch King, upon seeing that Conan doesn't fall over peeing himself in his presence, looks him over for magical items and protections. Finding the belt, he promptly sunders it.* It is a belt that protects Conan from some of the magic of the WK. Nothing is said about it being indestructable, so I think if the WK figures out the belt is the cause of Conans immunity to some of his magic, he could destroy it. Though Conan may not be able to wet his pants then, because he would be pantsed.


Thirdly, Conan seems to damn well attract sorcerers, ancient demons and unnatural things that cannot be like a lightbulb attracts moths. Seriously. In a world as magic-starved as Hyborea, he bumps into them every adventure. And he always seems to stumble across some relic, information ally, fact or somesuch that enables him to crush an enemy, or at the very least escape a Fate Worse Than Death. I would not put it past him to capture Eowin as a slave, let her fall in love with him and then have her stab the Witch King in the back while he -manfully- grapples it. Lord knows more convoluted things have happened in the original series. If there wasn't an unrealistic attraction of evil magic-users to the protagonist, it would be a boring fantasy. And I think that hardly prepares him for the WK, who is not Conan's everyday villain.

[Mr. Scaly]

Fanfiction demon...Warty Goblin wins again.

[warty goblin]

Just FYI Steven, the arrow that hit Faramir was not thrown by a Nazgul. In Houses of Healing Aragorn (or maybe Gandalf, I can't remember atm) said that had the dart been cast by a Nazgul, Faramir would have died during the night of the siege. Given that he only was brought back sometime in the afternoon IIRC, that's a pretty lethal dart.

I think Imhrahil said that the dart looked like a Southron weapon, but that he had thrown it away, and so could not be sure.

Other than that, I'm in complete agreement with you however.

edit: To everybody who enjoyed the FF demon, thanks for the compliments, I'm glad it was a success. If I get time I'll post the stats for the Internet Dwelling Mottled Troll.

[EvilElitest]

Just FYI Steven, the arrow that hit Faramir was not thrown by a Nazgul. In Houses of Healing Aragorn (or maybe Gandalf, I can't remember atm) said that had the dart been cast by a Nazgul, Faramir would have died during the night of the siege. Given that he only was brought back sometime in the afternoon IIRC, that's a pretty lethal dart.

I think Imhrahil said that the dart looked like a Southron weapon, but that he had thrown it away, and so could not be sure.

Other than that, I'm in complete agreement with you however.

1) No response to my comments WG? Awwwwww man
2) The arrow was of harad make, but a nazgul had breathed upon it or somehow interacted with it. However your right, if the arrow had been made by the nazgul, or shot by one, he would be dead quickly
3) Can i stat myself in your forum world WG?
from
EE

[warty goblin]

1) No response to my comments WG? Awwwwww man
2) The arrow was of harad make, but a nazgul had breathed upon it or somehow interacted with it. However your right, if the arrow had been made by the nazgul, or shot by one, he would be dead quickly
3) Can i stat myself in your forum world WG?
from
EE

1) See my edit
2) Harad, Southron, something like that. Shot by a human though. The Nazgul was right overhead when Faramir was hit, and probably dialing the Black Breath up to 11 at the time, which was probably why he needed healing from Aragorn, boy of Destiny
3) Sure, you are quite free to enter the dangerous realms of the Internet Hells. Be cautious however, for they trap the unwary, and more than one innocent poster has been dragged to a horrible end, just another casualty in the wars of the FF demons.

[EvilElitest]

1) See my edit
2) Harad, Southron, something like that. Shot by a human though. The Nazgul was right overhead when Faramir was hit, and probably dialing the Black Breath up to 11 at the time, which was probably why he needed healing from Aragorn, boy of Destiny
3) Sure, you are quite free to enter the dangerous realms of the Internet Hells. Be cautious however, for they trap the unwary, and more than one innocent poster has been dragged to a horrible end, just another casualty in the wars of the FF demons.

I think EE would be a LN Devil (Lawful, Evil, Southern) with a few unique powers
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Even so, the WK can fly over them and spread the Black Breath.
And I seriously doubt Conan has that good aim, to shoot something in the night far above him, likely. Also hard to shoot a moving target, even harder to shoot one flying.

A, Conan has good night vision (not on par with darkvision admittedly but he would be able to be as good a thief he somtimes is if he couldn't see at night). B, How close does the WK need to be to pass over the BB? Which leads to C, It may be hard to hit a moving target (I'd debate the flying part since it's just a matter of getting into the right spot) but a fell beast isn't exactly a small target. D,....It just felt right to put a 'D' here.


Good point... but it is unlike anything Conan has experienced... what foes did he attack involve a curse on him that would turn his weapon to ash, and make his arm completely numb and useless? He is familiar with most evils, but not the evil in Middle Earth. Therefore... alien.

Dead guy? Fought it. Curses you? Fought it alot (keep reading before foaming at the mouth on this one). Destroys weapon? Faster then anticipated but still seen it. Debilitating condition? Usually not a curse and usually from uglier things then WK, but seen it. The only 'new' thing here is that it's all rolled into one package.


And downright, Black Breath is epic, an arrow breathed upon by the Nazgul sent Faramir into a deathly coma that took a powerful wizard to wake him up from. And even after the siege was over, a good deal of the defenders of Gondor died from the BB that was spreaded when the Nazgul flew over them.

Hasn't the other LotR fans been disputing you on this 'Faramir-coma' bit? And even then doesn't seem all that epic...if anything (equating it to D&D) the BB would probably only do negative levels at a rate of...1/day to those affected. Which is admittedly fatal to most LotR characters.


Oh, and a point that Mr. Scaly brought up.
It is a belt that protects Conan from some of the magic of the WK. Nothing is said about it being indestructable, so I think if the WK figures out the belt is the cause of Conans immunity to some of his magic, he could destroy it. Though Conan may not be able to wet his pants then, because he would be pantsed.

How on earth would he figure out that a belt is what protects Conan? From what I've seen the magical equipment in LotR comes in four varieties. Staves, swords, rings, and orbs. If the BB is alien to Conan then a magic belt is just as alien to the WK.:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

A, Conan has good night vision (not on par with darkvision admittedly but he would be able to be as good a thief he somtimes is if he couldn't see at night). B, How close does the WK need to be to pass over the BB? Which leads to C, It may be hard to hit a moving target (I'd debate the flying part since it's just a matter of getting into the right spot) but a fell beast isn't exactly a small target. D,....It just felt right to put a 'D' here.

1) It is worth noting actually that hte WK doesn't so much see as smell/feel his targets blood. So he would most likely only shoot humans he had a good shot at. But he has the fel beast
2) it is worth noting that hte fel beast is freaking fast, and scaled. However as legolas proved, it isn't immortal.
3) The Black Shadow is a crop duster effect, it effects the entire field of gondor. However the closer the nazgul is, the harder it is to resist, so i think Cohan can shrug off all its effects unless he is right next to him



Dead guy? Fought it. Curses you? Fought it alot (keep reading before foaming at the mouth on this one). Destroys weapon? Faster then anticipated but still seen it. Debilitating condition? Usually not a curse and usually from uglier things then WK, but seen it. The only 'new' thing here is that it's all rolled into one package.
BB, morgul blade, fear but i get your point



Hasn't the other LotR fans been disputing you on this 'Faramir-coma' bit? And even then doesn't seem all that epic...if anything (equating it to D&D) the BB would probably only do negative levels at a rate of...1/day to those affected. Which is admittedly fatal to most LotR characters.

See WG's post



How on earth would he figure out that a belt is what protects Conan? From what I've seen the magical equipment in LotR comes in four varieties. Staves, swords, rings, and orbs. If the BB is alien to Conan then a magic belt is just as alien to the WK.:smalltongue:
Meh, fair enough but ME does have magic belts. That being said, the WK
A) most likely wouldn't notice Cohan's resistence, until he actually touched him and i doubt it would matter because even the belt can't help him then
B) However Cohan' better watch for his sword

I like new sig, remember to credit me
from
EE

[warty goblin]

Dead guy? Fought it. Curses you? Fought it alot (keep reading before foaming at the mouth on this one). Destroys weapon? Faster then anticipated but still seen it. Debilitating condition? Usually not a curse and usually from uglier things then WK, but seen it. The only 'new' thing here is that it's all rolled into one package.


I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't exactly make a lot of sense to me, here's why: Let's look at what the Tank brought to WWI
1) Armor: Seen it before on armored cars.
2) Machine Guns, also seen before
3) Higher powered heavy guns, seen before in far higher calibre than mounted on tanks, such as on artillery or siege guns.
The only 'new' thing here is once again being rolled into one package and an increase in mobility over shelled terrain (easily analagous to the advantages offered by a 300mph highly manueverable fell beast in a ruined city vs a guy on foot). By your argument the tank should have had very little impact on WWI because infantry in trenches had withstood everything that the tank brought to the table piecemeal, but not together. Instead the tank proved to be very effective at breaking through trenchs and so forth, simply because of the combination of elements that it offered was sufficient to overcome where one or two of the things were not.

Bottom line, just because you've stood up to a group of things individually says very little about standing up to them combined. Also, if we are using the inevitable WWII metaphor for Middle Earth where orcs= Nazis, then the Witch King= King Tiger.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Meh, fair enough but ME does have magic belts. That being said, the WK
A) most likely wouldn't notice Cohan's resistence, until he actually touched him and i doubt it would matter because even the belt can't help him then
B) However Cohan' better watch for his sword

I like new sig, remember to credit me
from
EE

Wait, ME does have magic belts? Must have been in Simillarion...or however you pronounce that.


And I credit NOBODY! MUWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA! *Leaves the airduct for the express purpose of scurrying back into it.*

[EvilElitest]

Wait, ME does have magic belts? Must have been in Simillarion...or however you pronounce that.

I think so. I know Pippen and Merry and Boromir got super special awsome belts, through i don't recall if they did anything




And I credit NOBODY! MUWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA! *Leaves the airduct for the express purpose of scurrying back into it.*
Then nobody will know how funny i am:smallfrown:
Very well, then i shall play loud emo music in the air duct
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't exactly make a lot of sense to me, here's why: Let's look at what the Tank brought to WWI
1) Armor: Seen it before on armored cars.
2) Machine Guns, also seen before
3) Higher powered heavy guns, seen before in far higher calibre than mounted on tanks, such as on artillery or siege guns.
The only 'new' thing here is once again being rolled into one package and an increase in mobility over shelled terrain (easily analagous to the advantages offered by a 300mph highly manueverable fell beast in a ruined city vs a guy on foot). By your argument the tank should have had very little impact on WWI because infantry in trenches had withstood everything that the tank brought to the table piecemeal, but not together. Instead the tank proved to be very effective at breaking through trenchs and so forth, simply because of the combination of elements that it offered was sufficient to overcome where one or two of the things were not.

Bottom line, just because you've stood up to a group of things individually says very little about standing up to them combined. Also, if we are using the inevitable WWII metaphor for Middle Earth where orcs= Nazis, then the Witch King= King Tiger.

My argument isn't that it's just as effective as it's piecemeal parts, because as your example pointed out it IS more effective, it's just that these things would NOT be a surprise to Conan which would have offered another advantage to the WK. You only need to be surprised by something once for it to kill you, the abilites by themselves would not be surprising my argument was that the only thing alien about them was Conan encountering somebody/thing who could do ALL of them at once (Which may not in and of itself be a surprise since he could have encountered something like that and I just don't know about it), not that they were less effective together because he had encountered them separately


Then nobody will know how funny i am
Very well, then i shall play loud emo music in the air duct

Touche hobbit...touche.

[EvilElitest]

My argument isn't that it's just as effective as it's piecemeal parts, because as your example pointed out it IS more effective, it's just that these things would NOT be a surprise to Conan which would have offered another advantage to the WK. You only need to be surprised by something once for it to kill you, the abilites by themselves would not be surprising my argument was that the only thing alien about them was Conan encountering somebody/thing who could do ALL of them at once (Which may not in and of itself be a surprise since he could have encountered something like that and I just don't know about it), not that they were less effective together because he had encountered them separately

However Cohan wouldn't be ready for these things until after they happen




Touche hobbit...touche.
Wait who's a hobbit........oh right
from
EE

[GoC]

1) "Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
The Return of the King: "The Siege of Gondor," p. 103
2) cannon? Well i'll believe that when i see it, where is walking Target. My map shows the undying lands and ME, but that is only on one half of the earth
6) But what kept the fragment from killing Frodo was magical healing, the weapon is tainting the person in question
8) No, your just running yours backwards
from
EE
8)
1) I am blind.:smallredface::smallredface::smallredface:
Would you believe I read that bit THREE TIMES without seeing the flames?:smallredface:
2) Yeah, where is he...?
6) Not necessarily. He was just one of the "sturdy halfings" who are far more resilient than they look. Aragorn says (or at least implied) his curing will not help much.
8) Am not. :smalltongue:

There is so much I agree with EE on this. For one, yes, magical healing is required to remove the morgul poison. Why did you think that the group was eager to get Frodo to the elves?
The map I don't exactly trust... Did you notice one of those kingdoms was named Endor? Like the planet Endor from Star Wars... and I don't recall reading of the Hyarmenor at all. I'm no expect of Middle earth cartography, however... Still, I'd rather a more detailed map, and one that is actually cannon.
It's equivalent to the one in the apendix of my copy but yes it is a very poor map. We need Walking Target to show us a better one.


Yep... that sure as heck gives us a diameter. I wouldn't say it is true though, unless if Tolkien himself said it himself, I think that is just rumors.
Quite likely.


I think so. I know Pippen and Merry and Boromir got super special awsome belts, through i don't recall if they did anything
Nah, they just looked awesome.:smallcool:

[EvilElitest]

1) I am blind.:smallredface::smallredface::smallredface:
Would you believe I read that bit THREE TIMES without seeing the flames?:smallredface:
2) Yeah, where is he...?
6) Not necessarily. He was just one of the "sturdy halfings" who are far more resilient than they look. Aragorn says (or at least implied) his curing will not help much.
8) Am not. :smalltongue:


1) You do realize i'm never going to let you live that down right. Never
2) most likely in his own realm of sheer awsome
6) And it has been made clear throughout the books that the hobbit's sturdy nature was in reference to magic/corruption resistence
8) what, i can't read what your saying, even through it is right in front of my face :smalltongue:


It's equivalent to the one in the apendix of my copy but yes it is a very poor map. We need Walking Target to show us a better one.

He will come in his awsome glory some day
Quite likely.



Nah, they just looked awesome.:smallcool:

I don't know, there might be magic belts in ME
from
EE

[warty goblin]

OK, as promised the feared Internet Dwelling Mottled Troll.

Large Monsterous Humaniod (Jerk, Dibwad)
AC 30
HD 4
HP 40 (see below)
Str 15
Dex 15
Con 18
Int 5
Wis 5
Cha -- (as FF demon, cannot use cha based abilities or skills)
Attack: Claw + 10 (1d10+2)
Full Attack: Two Claws +10(1d10+2)
Special Abilities:
Fire-Magnet: The Mottled Troll lives to attract flames. The Mottled Troll can redirect any attack or spell with the [Fire] or [Flame] descriptor that is targeted at it or any creature within 10 feet of it.
Fire-eater: The Mottled Troll feeds off of the worst the internet has to offer. Unlike normal posters, the Mottled Troll does not regain HP with time, and cannot recover HP normally through rest or any other form of healing, instead it must attract and grow strong off of the flames and vitrol of others. Instead of taking damage from a [Fire], [Flame] or [Acid] attack, the Mottled Troll heals that much HP, any excess is simply added on, Mottled Trolls have no maximum HP.
Troll: The signature ability of the Mottled Troll. Twice per day, as a Full Round Action, a Mottled Troll can attempt a Search Internet check in order to locate a likely target for Start Flamewar. See table below for results:
Check Result:
0-1: Only well moderated boards with reasonable posters are found.
2-5: Under moderated boards with somewhat volitile posters are found, but the Mottled Troll used Start Flamewar on them in the recent past, and if he does so again will forfeit the benifits of Mottled Cameflauge.
6-10: Undermoderated board with somewhat volitile posters with generally poor Int and Detect Troll scores. High chance of starting a successful Flamewar.
11-15: Fansite populated by FF demons and moderated by one overworked and increasingly bitter Lesser Moderator. Almost complete certainty of starting a decent if not spectacularr flamewar.
16-20: Two fansites devoted to different and moderately anti-thetical forms of media (example: My Little Pony and A Song of Ice and Fire), one of which has just run front page 'article' on why it is better than the other sort. Complete certainty of starting a massive, festering and community splitting Flamewar, which will become semi-legendary on both Fansites.
21+ GameFAQs or worse. Posting that the sun rises in the east will start a flamewar.
Start Flamewar: The primary attack of the Mottled Troll. Once per day as a full round action, the Mottled Troll can attempt to start a flamewar. It does this by saying something designed to provoke the ire of others. All creatures within 30 feet must make a DC 18 Intelligence (or, if trained, Detect Troll) check, or will attack the first non-allied creature they see, using any [Flame] attacks or spells first. Every round after the first they must pass a DC 15 + 1 per round or continue to do this until the thread is locked. If a creature rolls a critical failure check and is withing 120 feet of a Moderator, it must pass a DC 20 Diplomacy check or be instantly Banhammered (note that lacking a Cha score, a FF demon cannot even make this check and is automatically Banhammered). Every time a creature is Banhammered as a result of this, the check to continue the Flamewar is reduced by 5, but may climb back up as usual.
Mottled Cameflauge: Made wily by years of internet combat, a Mottled Troll is hard to find. Upon the inevitable locking of a Flamewar thread, any Moderator seeking to punish those responsible must suceed in a DC20 Follow Torturous Thread Logic check in order to discover the Troll, and a further DC15 Diplomacy check to pursuade other Moderators to approve any use of the Banhammer.
Misanthropic Attention-Craver: Every day the Mottled Troll does not have at least one active Flamewar thread, he loses 5 HP.
A horrible figure, with greasy hair and Cheez-it stains on his shirt, which says F- You on the front (back: Because you like it) in a color outlawed by the Geneva convention shambles towards you. His arms end in long black claws which drip rottenness, and his breath smells like a thousand bats running into a pillar of obsidian. Eyeing you critically he suddenly bursts into a single line of speach so ignorant, so worthless and just plain wrong it sears itself into your brain like a red hot frying pan dropped from the Empire State Building- "Eregon was the best movie evar! Discuss." As your eyes glaze over with rage he vanishes from sight, and in front of you is some pathetic FF demon screaming "0wnz0red LOLOL!!!!11!111." as it engulfs you in a blast of flame.

Mottled Trolls are perhaps one of the most disgusting and wretched denizens of the Internet Hells. FF demons have few redeeming qualities, but at least they have the courage of their convictions (including one for improper hygene which landed them a hefty fine). Trolls, at least the good ones, never have any convictions of any sort, and live to feed off of the ruin and conflict of others' fandoms and likes. They are the ultimate horror of anonimity, intoxicated with their own power to sow misery and chaos. The only responsible action is to ignore him, then get a Greater Moderator to Banhammer them so hard that blood spurts out of his ISP's modem, but many fail to realize this and plunge into flaming combat trying to disprove the troll, little realizing this is exactly what he desires. .

Enjoy!

[Callos_DeTerran]

Heh, when is the lords of Internet Hell, Rogue Moderators, going to be statted?

[WalkingTarget]

It's equivalent to the one in the apendix of my copy but yes it is a very poor map. We need Walking Target to show us a better one.

I've been dealing with moving recently, all of my books are boxed up.

Keeping that in mind, as far as I know there is no official map of the entirety of Middle-earth. All that we have is the parts in which the story of LotR takes place (well, we have a bit more from earlier Ages, I've seen maps of the original flat-world Arda that included the Undying Lands and whatnot, which I'll get to later in this post, but that's not really applicable to this point anyway).

Poking around the web gives a few quotes, though.

Letter #169: "As for the shape of the world of the Third Age, I am afraid that was devised 'dramatically' rather than geologically, or paleontologically."

So Tolkien wasn't particularly interested in logical ramifications of the layout and inner workings of the land itself. Geography is dependent on narrative causality. As my books are currently unavailable to me and my Google-fu is apparently weak today, could somebody provide the quote where the falling-for-three-day notion is coming from? I'm not necessarily doubting that an explicit statement is there, I just don't remember anything that specific.

Letter #294: "The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. ... If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy."

Which gives us some sense of scale for the mapped portions at least. Note that he's talking about latitude only, not direct equality in location (Hobbiton in relation to Minas Tirith is not the same as Oxford and Florence except in terms of north-south distance). In any event, there were several instances where it was indicated that his stories took place in a legendary past of our own world.

There is The Atlas of Middle-earth that was published in 1981, but it isn't really canonical (and, for the most part, just presents maps of the areas discussed in the narratives as if they were real places, sometimes with multiple maps of an area to show different character's travels or to show troop movements during wars). It's neat, but not official for anything here and is pretty much the source of the "world map (http://www.valinor.com.br/galeria/albums/userpics/10001/first_age_of_arda.jpg)" you guys linked to earlier. "Endor" (or Endórë sometimes) is just Quenya for Middle-earth (or, more literally, Middle-Land). Another name for Númenor was Andor, Gift-Land. The fact that George Lucas and Robert Jordan re-used names (intentionally or not) is irrelevant. In any event, that particular map is from the First Age (note the presence of Beleriand) so, again, it isn't particularly useful for determining distances in post-Downfall discussions.

I haven't read the History of Middle-earth series, so there may be something in there that I'm not aware of, but I have a feeling that if there were an official map of the world, it'd be easier to find online.

[EvilElitest]

OK, as promised the feared Internet Dwelling Mottled Troll.

Large Monsterous Humaniod (Jerk, Dibwad)
AC 30
HD 4
HP 40 (see below)
Str 15
Dex 15
Con 18
Int 5
Wis 5
Cha -- (as FF demon, cannot use cha based abilities or skills)
Attack: Claw + 10 (1d10+2)
Full Attack: Two Claws +10(1d10+2)
Special Abilities:
Fire-Magnet: The Mottled Troll lives to attract flames. The Mottled Troll can redirect any attack or spell with the [Fire] or [Flame] descriptor that is targeted at it or any creature within 10 feet of it.
Fire-eater: The Mottled Troll feeds off of the worst the internet has to offer. Unlike normal posters, the Mottled Troll does not regain HP with time, and cannot recover HP normally through rest or any other form of healing, instead it must attract and grow strong off of the flames and vitrol of others. Instead of taking damage from a [Fire], [Flame] or [Acid] attack, the Mottled Troll heals that much HP, any excess is simply added on, Mottled Trolls have no maximum HP.
Troll: The signature ability of the Mottled Troll. Twice per day, as a Full Round Action, a Mottled Troll can attempt a Search Internet check in order to locate a likely target for Start Flamewar. See table below for results:
Check Result:
0-1: Only well moderated boards with reasonable posters are found.
2-5: Under moderated boards with somewhat volitile posters are found, but the Mottled Troll used Start Flamewar on them in the recent past, and if he does so again will forfeit the benifits of Mottled Cameflauge.
6-10: Undermoderated board with somewhat volitile posters with generally poor Int and Detect Troll scores. High chance of starting a successful Flamewar.
11-15: Fansite populated by FF demons and moderated by one overworked and increasingly bitter Lesser Moderator. Almost complete certainty of starting a decent if not spectacularr flamewar.
16-20: Two fansites devoted to different and moderately anti-thetical forms of media (example: My Little Pony and A Song of Ice and Fire), one of which has just run front page 'article' on why it is better than the other sort. Complete certainty of starting a massive, festering and community splitting Flamewar, which will become semi-legendary on both Fansites.
21+ GameFAQs or worse. Posting that the sun rises in the east will start a flamewar.
Start Flamewar: The primary attack of the Mottled Troll. Once per day as a full round action, the Mottled Troll can attempt to start a flamewar. It does this by saying something designed to provoke the ire of others. All creatures within 30 feet must make a DC 18 Intelligence (or, if trained, Detect Troll) check, or will attack the first non-allied creature they see, using any [Flame] attacks or spells first. Every round after the first they must pass a DC 15 + 1 per round or continue to do this until the thread is locked. If a creature rolls a critical failure check and is withing 120 feet of a Moderator, it must pass a DC 20 Diplomacy check or be instantly Banhammered (note that lacking a Cha score, a FF demon cannot even make this check and is automatically Banhammered). Every time a creature is Banhammered as a result of this, the check to continue the Flamewar is reduced by 5, but may climb back up as usual.
Mottled Cameflauge: Made wily by years of internet combat, a Mottled Troll is hard to find. Upon the inevitable locking of a Flamewar thread, any Moderator seeking to punish those responsible must suceed in a DC20 Follow Torturous Thread Logic check in order to discover the Troll, and a further DC15 Diplomacy check to pursuade other Moderators to approve any use of the Banhammer.
Misanthropic Attention-Craver: Every day the Mottled Troll does not have at least one active Flamewar thread, he loses 5 HP.
A horrible figure, with greasy hair and Cheez-it stains on his shirt, which says F- You on the front (back: Because you like it) in a color outlawed by the Geneva convention shambles towards you. His arms end in long black claws which drip rottenness, and his breath smells like a thousand bats running into a pillar of obsidian. Eyeing you critically he suddenly bursts into a single line of speach so ignorant, so worthless and just plain wrong it sears itself into your brain like a red hot frying pan dropped from the Empire State Building- "Eregon was the best movie evar! Discuss." As your eyes glaze over with rage he vanishes from sight, and in front of you is some pathetic FF demon screaming "0wnz0red LOLOL!!!!11!111." as it engulfs you in a blast of flame.

Mottled Trolls are perhaps one of the most disgusting and wretched denizens of the Internet Hells. FF demons have few redeeming qualities, but at least they have the courage of their convictions (including one for improper hygene which landed them a hefty fine). Trolls, at least the good ones, never have any convictions of any sort, and live to feed off of the ruin and conflict of others' fandoms and likes. They are the ultimate horror of anonimity, intoxicated with their own power to sow misery and chaos. The only responsible action is to ignore him, then get a Greater Moderator to Banhammer them so hard that blood spurts out of his ISP's modem, but many fail to realize this and plunge into flaming combat trying to disprove the troll, little realizing this is exactly what he desires. .

Enjoy!

Wow nicely done

you should make variants

Also nice to see WG still around

hey callos, are you a girl? You always seem to choose girl avaters
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

hey callos, are you a girl? You always seem to choose girl avaters
from
EE

I've had two female avatars in the past...3-4 months, tops, over the course of the...probably close to four years I've been on there boards, and I've always had an avatar...however none of this really answers your question so I leave you to reach your own conclusion.

[EvilElitest]

I've had two female avatars in the past...3-4 months, tops, over the course of the...probably close to four years I've been on there boards, and I've always had an avatar...however none of this really answers your question so I leave you to reach your own conclusion.

1) I love your sig now
2) Hmmmmmmmmmm, risk. Your an evil person, and i'm very confused on what to do. If your female, then i might be able to admit my mild crush on you. If male, then i just look silly. i should stay quite and wait until you reveal yourself, oh dammit
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) I love your sig now

Thank...you? o.O Or is it 'Your welcome'? Pesky manners, also weird picking the appropriate response.


2) Hmmmmmmmmmm, risk. Your an evil person, and i'm very confused on what to do. If your female, then i might be able to admit my mild crush on you. If male, then i just look silly. i should stay quite and wait until you reveal yourself, oh dammit
from
EE

...*blink then busts out with evil cackling* In all the time on this board I've not so much as revealed which part of the country I live in, my real name, or even so much as distinguishing characteristics. I don't think I'll begin making slip-ups now of all times. And aside from that it is far far more fun to watch you stew in confusion for me to answer in any truly enlightening way.:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

1) The proper response is "Why thank you EE, it was worth making" then keep the air duct joke going
2) well, for the sake of my masculinity i will assume that your a girl, because i'm ether in love or resorting to hero worship:smallwink:
3) you are an evil person
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) The proper response is "Why thank you EE, it was worth making" then keep the air duct joke going
2) well, for the sake of my masculinity i will assume that your a girl, because i'm ether in love or resorting to hero worship:smallwink:
3) you are an evil person
from
EE

1) "Why thank you EE, it was worth making" *wonders where the air ducts go...*

2) Assume what you will but the first person to ship EvilElitestxCallos_DeTerran will be shanked by my ninjas. Not because I support or hate above ship (because that would be ruining the mystery) but because I don't like shipping. (Except ConanxArwenxEowin. :smalltongue:)

3) Don't worry, if you try you can be too.:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

1) "Why thank you EE, it was worth making" *wonders where the air ducts go...*

2) Assume what you will but the first person to ship EvilElitestxCallos_DeTerran will be shanked by my ninjas. Not because I support or hate above ship (because that would be ruining the mystery) but because I don't like shipping. (Except ConanxArwenxEowin. :smalltongue:)

3) Don't worry, if you try you can be too.:smalltongue:

1) Hah, i sealed them up. With DUCK TAPE

Duh Duh Duh
2) While i know you support such ship, i would like to point out you should ask tengu about EE shipping. He has some funny stories, apparently i'm his favorite target
3) I had the name and everything
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) Hah, i sealed them up. With DUCK TAPE

Duh Duh Duh
2) While i know you support such ship, i would like to point out you should ask tengu about EE shipping. He has some funny stories, apparently i'm his favorite target
3) I had the name and everything
from
EE

1) Duck-tape or duct tape? Because I'm only concerned about one, the other is but a flimsy attempt to stop me.

2) Support ConanxArwenxEowin? Heck yeah. I support any Conanxfemale character ship because he works hard for it. :smallbiggrin: ...Do I even want to ask or will my brain punish me for asking?

3) The key-word there being 'had', past tense. You lost your touch. :smalltongue:


The small tongue smiley should be illegal to use, it's so much fun.

[EvilElitest]

1) Duck-tape or duct tape? Because I'm only concerned about one, the other is but a flimsy attempt to stop me.

2) Support ConanxArwenxEowin? Heck yeah. I support any Conanxfemale character ship because he works hard for it. :smallbiggrin: ...Do I even want to ask or will my brain punish me for asking?

3) The key-word there being 'had', past tense. You lost your touch. :smalltongue:


The small tongue smiley should be illegal to use, it's so much fun.

1) Both actuallly. Duct tape, with Ducts taped to it, acting as a double barrier
2a) CohanXArwenxEowin? No
2b) Tengu created EvilElitestXRutee. Ask him for details, it is in fact a very funny story. But you ahve to PM me what he says
3) I shall retake my place. Eventualy vs. threads shall return

I defy the law:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smallto ngue: but your right
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) Both actuallly. Duct tape, with Ducts taped to it, acting as a double barrier
2a) CohanXArwenxEowin? No
2b) Tengu created EvilElitestXRutee. Ask him for details, it is in fact a very funny story. But you ahve to PM me what he says
3) I shall retake my place. Eventualy vs. threads shall return

I defy the law:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue::smallto ngue: but your right
from
EE

1) Curses! Foiled by water-proof tape!

2a) Then I do believe you've lost me.
2b) Then I suppose I'm off to find a certain Tengu then.


3) >.> Surprised they haven't already, it's been too long since a flood of them have hit the board.

Hugs and kisses to EE:smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

1) Curses! Foiled by water-proof tape!

2a) Then I do believe you've lost me.
2b) Then I suppose I'm off to find a certain Tengu then.


3) >.> Surprised they haven't already, it's been too long since a flood of them have hit the board.


1) I am a an evil overlord
2a) Sorry,
2b) what do you think of the idea. don't forget to tell me tengu's response
3) When the return, i shall be king once again



Hugs and kisses to EE:smalltongue:
Yes:smallbiggrin:
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) I am a an evil overlord
2a) Sorry,
2b) what do you think of the idea. don't forget to tell me tengu's response
3) When the return, i shall be king once again

1) Bah! I'll not be stopped by this! *Scurries off to look for another vent*
2a) Er...for...Losing me?
2b) Which idea and I haven't gotten it yet. I haven't even asked yet. :smalltongue: Be patient for crikies sake.
3) :smallamused: Return of the King, huh?



Yes:smallbiggrin:
from
EE

:smallredface: Confident, aren't you? :smallwink:

[EvilElitest]

1) Bah! I'll not be stopped by this! *Scurries off to look for another vent*
2a) Er...for...Losing me?
2b) Which idea and I haven't gotten it yet. I haven't even asked yet. :smalltongue: Be patient for crikies sake.
3) :smallamused: Return of the King, huh?

1) Fool, i have no other vent.....wait didn't i install a dumb waiter.......NOOOOOOOOOOOoo
2a) we are all lost together. Oh on a totally irrelevant note, check out the thread on my soul on friendly banter
2b) Ok when you do ask
2C) the idea of EvilRuteesist. It seems like an interesting one
3) Not King, Emperor. Or at least Fuhrer


:smallredface: Confident, aren't you? :smallwink:
I'm a confident person. What, i have 51% chance.
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) Fool, i have no other vent.....wait didn't i install a dumb waiter.......NOOOOOOOOOOOoo

I'm a confident person. What, i have 51% chance.
from
EE

1) Muwahahahahahahahaha!

Wouldn't it be more like...49.50% chance? Even for both genders but for allowing the 1% genetic anomaly? Hmm...I think the numbers would be different even for that...ah well. Make oyur own number

[EvilElitest]

1) Muwahahahahahahahaha!

Wouldn't it be more like...49.50% chance? Even for both genders but for allowing the 1% genetic anomaly? Hmm...I think the numbers would be different even for that...ah well. Make oyur own number

1) NOoooooooooooo. i keep mel gibson at the bottom of that, your let him escape to make more crappy movie
2) not answer to number 2? awww Check out the soul thread it is very amuzing
3) I think there are more girls than boys by 1% actually, not quite sure
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) NOoooooooooooo. i keep mel gibson at the bottom of that, your let him escape to make more crappy movie
2) not answer to number 2? awww Check out the soul thread it is very amuzing
3) I think there are more girls than boys by 1% actually, not quite sure
from
EE

1) "Whats that nois AGHHHHH! He's got me!" *fighting noises*

2) I was actually I just assumed you and I had derailed this thread enough. XP If the tarot reader do be right then your similiar to me on some things but different on others. Granted the one time my tarot was read I was actually told I was going to die before I became successful so I am a wee bit suspect of it mostly out of self-preservation.

3) Really now? okay maybe you have the right number then..

[EvilElitest]

1) "Whats that nois AGHHHHH! He's got me!" *fighting noises*

2) I was actually I just assumed you and I had derailed this thread enough. XP If the tarot reader do be right then your similiar to me on some things but different on others. Granted the one time my tarot was read I was actually told I was going to die before I became successful so I am a wee bit suspect of it mostly out of self-preservation.

3) Really now? okay maybe you have the right number then..

1) Oh gods, i can't watch (as Mel Gibson reveals his true form, the Rancer Best from Return of hte Jedai
2a) no i meant for you to post there, i think your'll find it amusing
2) I think so. Sadly, if you remain quite, i will assume your a girl. And being 16 i will be forced to write


crappy teenage love poems

the true beings of hell

no i wish i was kidding, the people in my school who write this stuff are so annoying
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) Oh gods, i can't watch (as Mel Gibson reveals his true form, the Rancer Best from Return of hte Jedai
2a) no i meant for you to post there, i think your'll find it amusing
2) I think so. Sadly, if you remain quite, i will assume your a girl. And being 16 i will be forced to write


crappy teenage love poems

the true beings of hell

no i wish i was kidding, the people in my school who write this stuff are so annoying
from
EE

1) "...Huh..." *Stares...then gets a pointy rock.*

2a) :smalltongue: Well if you want me to so badly then fine.

2) Eh, I've endured more evil, do your worst!

[EvilElitest]

1) "...Huh..." *Stares...then gets a pointy rock.*

2a) :smalltongue: Well if you want me to so badly then fine.

2) Eh, I've endured more evil, do your worst!

1) Oh are you going to kill mel gibson. Cool, i mean, um, no you have foiled my plans once again
2a) see you there
2) Is that a challenge to write crappy poetry? I kid you not, i normally act as a relationship councilor for angst teens do you really want me to mimic their poetry?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

Better question:

Who wins in a surfing competition? The Witch King or Conan?

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) Oh are you going to kill mel gibson. Cool, i mean, um, no you have foiled my plans once again
2a) see you there
2) Is that a challenge to write crappy poetry? I kid you not, i normally act as a relationship councilor for angst teens do you really want me to mimic their poetry?
from
EE

1) Kill? *stabs away his restraints* I plan to unleash him! *Builds a rancor saddle out of dirt and bones.* Woo hoo!

2) It's not a challenge, it's a dare cause I don't think you'll do it!

[EvilElitest]

Better question:

Who wins in a surfing competition? The Witch King or Conan?
Hmmm, thats a good point, the Wk has no body weight but has a bad track record with water

I love how after a full thread of straight flirtations and death threats you finally speak up:smallwink:


1) Kill? *stabs away his restraints* I plan to unleash him! *Builds a rancor saddle out of dirt and bones.* Woo hoo!

2) It's not a challenge, it's a dare cause I don't think you'll do it!
1) I didn't see that coming actually...............um counter with the giant marsmellow man from Ghost Busters
2) Last chance to back down. You know the poetry of Eragon. Well i can do even worst

from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Hmmm, thats a good point, the Wk has no body weight but has a bad track record with water

I love how after a full thread of straight flirtations and death threats you finally speak up:smallwink:

That and Conan is totally ripped and gets all the girls which is, of course, how you truly measures a surfer's ability. Plus he probably has good balance.



1) I didn't see that coming actually...............um counter with the giant marsmellow man from Ghost Busters
2) Last chance to back down. You know the poetry of Eragon. Well i can do even worst

from
EE

1) Now there's a vs thread! Stay Puff Marshmellow man vs. a Rancor Mel Gibson!

2) Wrong, I DON'T know the poetry of Eragon! I either skipped it or mentally blocked it out! Ha ha! No revealing for you! :smalltongue:

Oh and Tengu directed me to one particular thread in particular. Thats about it.

[EvilElitest]

That and Conan is totally ripped and gets all the girls which is, of course, how you truly measures a surfer's ability. Plus he probably has good balance.

Oh the true secret of surfing, it isn't about talent, just girls


1) Now there's a vs thread! Stay Puff Marshmellow man vs. a Rancor Mel Gibson!

2) Wrong, I DON'T know the poetry of Eragon! I either skipped it or mentally blocked it out! Ha ha! No revealing for you! :smalltongue:

Oh and Tengu directed me to one particular thread in particular. Thats about it.

1)......what evil have we spawned
2a) here is a sample


the war is over the battle won
murtagh was taken when the day was done
there must be a new leader for the vardone
this ofcourse is a burdun!

nasuada was appointed this task
Eragon accepted with out a mask
telling the varden was a chore
all were hapy except for 4!

roran the only cousin of Eragon
lost his one and only farm
heard tales of a new rider
but dissmised it and drank some cider

Tyhe ra'zac came after him
and caused carvahall suffering
whats the strangest thing?
its because hes wanted by the king

drive them out of town they did
they were beter then capti kidd
then the Ra'zac commensd attack
but they could fight worth jack

O!

As orik asked Eragon
to join the clan Ingeitun
it made him feel really numb
because he had to cut his wrist

Off to the elf city
with an elf who eragon thought was pretty
in a dark tunnel they all go
with nothing but ther swords and bow
now i end this tale to talk about another male

Roran change carvahall into a barracks
the healer constantly had to use serax
alll the women and childern in the Spine
with little food and wine
all they had were the cover of the pines

through the door the Ra'zac went
they didnt even half to pay a cent
then with a evil shove
they took Rorans only love

The butcher named sloan
hesa traiter to the bone
off to Surda they all go
will they make it alive?
i dont know

they travel to the city Ellesmera
wich is very far-a
they then see the land of of elves...
i bet you say to yourselves
what happens next?
you pick up the book and read the text


2B) Alright, bad poetry is one. What style do you want?
2C) what thread? What did tengu say?:smallconfused:
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1)......what evil have we spawned
2a) here is a sample
2B) Alright, bad poetry is one. What style do you want?
2C) what thread? What did tengu say?:smallconfused:
from
EE

1) Meh, par the course for me.
2a) Wha?...Sorry blacked out. XD
2b) Beats me. I wouldn't know good poetry if it smacked me in the face with a spiked baseball bat.
2c) The 'What flavor of Oriental' thingmajig from apparently a while ago because I remember it too just didn't post in it.

[EvilElitest]

1) Meh, par the course for me.
2a) Wha?...Sorry blacked out. XD
2b) Beats me. I wouldn't know good poetry if it smacked me in the face with a spiked baseball bat.
2c) The 'What flavor of Oriental' thingmajig from apparently a while ago because I remember it too just didn't post in it.

1) Touche
2a) I have your weakness
2b) Dear god this is going to be fun. Would Sonnet work?
2c) Oh that is when Tengu started the EvilRuteeist idea
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) Touche
2a) I have your weakness
2b) Dear god this is going to be fun. Would Sonnet work?
2c) Oh that is when Tengu started the EvilRuteeist idea
from
EE

1) Yeeeppp.
2a) The fact you consider it a weakness exposes your foolishness, son of Adam.
2b) ....sure?
2c) Ayup.

[EvilElitest]

1) Yeeeppp.
2a) The fact you consider it a weakness exposes your foolishness, son of Adam.
2b) ....sure?
2c) Ayup.
1) I shall have my revenge
2a) when you sleep, the poem shall be recited to you in your dreams
2B) this will be fun
3) I shall try not to remember it


My love sonnet, with all Teen horribleness and angst
Hell i don't even follow the rules


For there in the forum, of giants and sand
Avaters and posters amock
Who talk and complaint, um, something to do with my inner pain:smallconfused:
Which brings out hte truth light of, um, honesty
Or bring troll an flamers with the rude
O no, it is an interenet forum
That boils with the slim and scum of the world (And um, nobody understands me)
It is the playground where the buffalo, um poster roam
however amiss the sands of slime and not nicness, there stands a twinlke of love (heh heh, worst use of words ever)
One who's morals are as empty as her gender mark
Within the deep endless soul i can say
Deep down there there is in fact a small child of hope
Who's life is in fact a golden token of lost innocence
Oh callos, oh so callus
Who's soul contains nothing more than hatred and spite
But within contains a hidden longing for more (most likely doughnuts)
If this be error and upon me prove
I shall bring about the new dawn of my sould





....ok WFT was that
from
EE

[tyckspoon]

My love sonnet, with all Teen horribleness and angst
Hell i don't even follow the rules


....ok WFT was that
from
EE

Bad poetry. Also, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a sonnet.

[EvilElitest]

Bad poetry. Also, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a sonnet.

......i was only twisting the rules a tiny bit......badly
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

My love sonnet, with all Teen horribleness and angst
Hell i don't even follow the rules


For there in the forum, of giants and sand
Avaters and posters amock
Who talk and complaint, um, something to do with my inner pain:smallconfused:
Which brings out hte truth light of, um, honesty
Or bring troll an flamers with the rude
O no, it is an interenet forum
That boils with the slim and scum of the world (And um, nobody understands me)
It is the playground where the buffalo, um poster roam
however amiss the sands of slime and not nicness, there stands a twinlke of love (heh heh, worst use of words ever)
One who's morals are as empty as her gender mark
Within the deep endless soul i can say
Deep down there there is in fact a small child of hope
Who's life is in fact a golden token of lost innocence
Oh callos, oh so callus
Who's soul contains nothing more than hatred and spite
But within contains a hidden longing for more (most likely doughnuts)
If this be error and upon me prove
I shall bring about the new dawn of my sould



Wow....just wow...and not the good wow. O.o Where the hell did you even get half that stuff? 'Deep down there there is in fact a small child of hope'? If there is then it's because I cannibalized one.

[Azerian Kelimon]

For some reason, it reminds me of Percy Shelley.

"My name is Ozymandias.
O mighty one, behold my deeds, and suffer!"

[Steven the Lich]

EE... you just ain't a poet... no offense.
But I have a question... what was the message?
And more importantly... Are we lost? Because this doesn't look like the thread we joined originally.
Back to WK vs. Conan!
Thats of course if we can find our way back... We got lost good, thats for sure.

[Zenos]

Thats of course if we can find our way back... We got lost good, thats for sure.

They're sabotage experts, specializing in blowing up railways.

[GoC]

In order to prevent this being turned into the EvilElitestxCallos_DeTerran 4 3v4r! thread I hereby answer a post of EVilElitest+s.


1) You do realize i'm never going to let you live that down right. Never
2) most likely in his own realm of sheer awsome
6) And it has been made clear throughout the books that the hobbit's sturdy nature was in reference to magic/corruption resistence
8) what, i can't read what your saying, even through it is right in front of my face :smalltongue:

He will come in his awsome glory some day
Quite likely.



I don't know, there might be magic belts in ME
from
EE
1) Yes, I know.:smallfrown:
2) Lol, maybe...
6) Yeah but they also seem to have other resistances. Frodo got smacked by a huge beast like 100x his weight and strength and was walking the next day! The Hobbits also walk very long distances only a bit slower than humans and elves. They're almost like dwarves but smaller.
10) There may be magic belts but I don't know where they are...
11) It's strange... I normaly pride myself on being able to tell a persons gender after just a few minutes of studying their writing but for Callos_DeTerran I'm drawing a blank. Sometimes he/she/it sounds female and later male... maybe it's two people (brother and sister? Boyfriend and girlfried?) using the same account?

[EvilElitest]

Wow....just wow...and not the good wow. O.o Where the hell did you even get half that stuff? 'Deep down there there is in fact a small child of hope'? If there is then it's because I cannibalized one.

Hey,i got most of taht from reliable sources. And by that i mean Eragon Poetry and goth myspace pages. Really, it is pretty freaking bad.

The child represented, um, the inner innocence and hope, which you shall harbor and raise, so when you crush its hope by making it watch the Wall, it will be all the more amusing

Bow to my power, for i am truly a master of evil. And this is just my poetry, which i can't help but mock, i know worst poems that other people actually believe are great.

The real moral of the story is of course, that D&D is evil and corrupts the soul



EE... you just ain't a poet... no offense.
But I have a question... what was the message?
And more importantly... Are we lost? Because this doesn't look like the thread we joined originally.
Back to WK vs. Conan!
Thats of course if we can find our way back... We got lost good, thats for sure.

1) Actually i am a very good poet, i am just trying to make that to be as bad as possible
2) The message, um. It expressing my love for Callos, my um, wait, i know this, um, oh yeah, inner pain and um, no body understands my inner deep down whiny angsty pain. And um, the intolerence for those who aren't understood, and um, other whiny crap. Most however, it is a message against the fundamentals of communism.
3) We aren't lost, me an callos just spent a whole damn page flirting, which is perfectly acceptable



They're sabotage experts, specializing in blowing up railways.

Yes, callos, another point for team evil. Sexyness and snarkyness all away


n order to prevent this being turned into the EvilElitestxCallos_DeTerran 4 3v4r! thread I hereby answer a post of EVilElitest+s.
Dude i totally support such an thread. Add Rtuee and all my dreams are fulfilled


1) Yes, I know.
2) Lol, maybe...
6) Yeah but they also seem to have other resistances. Frodo got smacked by a huge beast like 100x his weight and strength and was walking the next day! The Hobbits also walk very long distances only a bit slower than humans and elves. They're almost like dwarves but smaller.
10) There may be magic belts but I don't know where they are...
11) It's strange... I normaly pride myself on being able to tell a persons gender after just a few minutes of studying their writing but for Callos_DeTerran I'm drawing a blank. Sometimes he/she/it sounds female and later male... maybe it's two people (brother and sister? Boyfriend and girlfried?) using the same account?
1) The fact that i found it in one freaking skim through, while you were looking at it three times
2) He came back, to counter your map point. Because he is awsome like that
6) um, you mean the orc who speared him? It was a troll only in the movie. And he was wearing a Mithril shirt
8) I won the race
11) Well we know it is possible in ME
12) yeah i know. If it is too people them i'm flirting with 50% of callos (eh?) or if it is one single person i have a 51% chance of not looking totally silly

Callos, you are a master of disguise
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

11) It's strange... I normaly pride myself on being able to tell a persons gender after just a few minutes of studying their writing but for Callos_DeTerran I'm drawing a blank. Sometimes he/she/it sounds female and later male... maybe it's two people (brother and sister? Boyfriend and girlfried?) using the same account?

Well at least I can answer this little bit of ambiguity, I share nothing. Not my stuff, air, food, or accounts so I am indeed one person. And to quote somebody else isn't calling me an 'it' a bit much? :smalltongue:


Callos, you are a master of disguise

Indeed and it only took about two months to perfect too.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Here's how the battle would go.

Through the sheer tactical brilliance of Conan and the confidence and bravery his mere presence bestows on his men, Conan's army defeats that of the Witch King's despite almost insurmountable odds.

Conan and the Witch King duel, and during the battle Conan realizes that he's fighting an indestructible sorcerer who no man could possibly hope to best. Conan isn't particularly impressed since this is just the latest of countless foes he's defeated that match that very description.

One of Conan's soldiers is a really hot chick whose smitten with Conan's rugged manliness. While the Witch King is preoccupied with the barbarian she sneaks up behind him and stabs him in the back.

Game over, bitch.

No one can defeat Conan.

[Oslecamo]

Actually, Conan got his ass quicked several times by other enemies.

However, Conan is smart enough to know when he's outgunned and run away to fight another day(normally with some magic weapon item wich bypasses his oponent's resistance).

Also, as you refered, Conan is quite good at geting hot strong chicks and powerfull warriors fighting for him. Problem is, those people normally end up dead, since they don't know to run away when outgunned.

Conan is a solo hero wich is a master of using other people as cannon fodder. How much Conan companions have survived more than one adventure with him?

[GoC]

1) The fact that i found it in one freaking skim through, while you were looking at it three times
2) He came back, to counter your map point. Because he is awsome like that
6) um, you mean the orc who speared him? It was a troll only in the movie. And he was wearing a Mithril shirt
8) I won the race
11) Well we know it is possible in ME
12) yeah i know. If it is too people them i'm flirting with 50% of callos (eh?) or if it is one single person i have a 51% chance of not looking totally silly

Callos, you are a master of disguise
from
EE
1) :smallannoyed:
2) No, WT doesn't counter anything or take sides. He presents the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
6) It was a "huge orc captain".
8) iow: you've stopped to catch your breath.
10) What would such a belt do?

[EvilElitest]

Callos, on this forum.


Here's how the battle would go.

Through the sheer tactical brilliance of Conan and the confidence and bravery his mere presence bestows on his men, Conan's army defeats that of the Witch King's despite almost insurmountable odds.

Conan and the Witch King duel, and during the battle Conan realizes that he's fighting an indestructible sorcerer who no man could possibly hope to best. Conan isn't particularly impressed since this is just the latest of countless foes he's defeated that match that very description.

One of Conan's soldiers is a really hot chick whose smitten with Conan's rugged manliness. While the Witch King is preoccupied with the barbarian she sneaks up behind him and stabs him in the back.

Game over, bitch.


Alright, try this again this time using real logic



1)
2) No, WT doesn't counter anything or take sides. He presents the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
6) It was a "huge orc captain".
8) iow: you've stopped to catch your breath.
10) What would such a belt do
1) It will never die. Really, how did you miss that? Were you reading in bad light?
2)yes, and WT truth destroys your point, the same way my abilty to read a book passage cleared up a misconception:smalltongue:
6) and Frodo was stunned and had to be carried for a while before recovering, but he was fine thanks to the mail shirt
10) well knowing Tolkien's love of legends, most likely something like strength, protection, ect



No one can defeat Conan.

The WK can :smalltongue:
from
EE

[Fri]

I want to ask something. I know that Conan fought against cosmic lovecraftian horror, and I know that he fought against physical gods before. He know various language, how to counter Black Magic, is a master thief, expert warrior, brilliant tactician and he isn't afraid to call what he's doing "grave robbing" or "theft". Actually he's as much Adventurer Archeologist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdventurerArchaeologist) as a raging barbarian.

What's the strongest physical thing he's ever fought before? And compared to witch king, which is stronger? Sorry if the comparation had been done, I've read this thread from the beginning to the end, but I might be missing one or two pages.

And why does I have this feeling, that without his prophetical armor, WK would be in the losing side. I read a lot of X vs Witch King, and most argument told about how he was prophetically protected. Huh. I agreed those question about validity of the prophecy. I've read the line about the prophecy itself, but still can't figure it out.

Is it, because someone scryed for the future and saw WK's death? So basically, it would be useless if somebody tried to kill WK because it's just not his time to die. Or undie. Or redied. Whatever.

Can't people fight fate? Conan is known to fighting fate (maybe, I kinda forgot. Isn't there a scene, somewhere, where Conan fought fate and win by sheer badassery?).

As usual, it seems that I'm in the losing side.

Oh, and Callos, though I have nothing personal against you, I must curse you because you're in the way for the One True Pairing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneTruePairing).

[Callos_DeTerran]

Oh, and Callos, though I have nothing personal against you, I must curse you because you're in the way for the One True Pairing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneTruePairing).

*blink* Er...ok..kay? Well fine, I curse you too. :smalltongue:

[Azerian Kelimon]

*blink* Er...ok..kay? Well fine, I curse you too. :smalltongue:

It probably won't work. Rutee and EE are like a protagonist and a tsundere pairing...

Though the jury is still out on who's who.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Actually, Conan got his ass quicked several times by other enemies.

Not in Robet E. Howard's stories, unless it was by some plot device. He's never lost a one on one battle, and invincible sorcerers are no exception. And he has never relied on magical weapons to win, with one exception. So with that non-canonical magic belt he's got, I personally would say that he doesn't even need the cohort, but since everyone is saying that the Witch King absolutely has to be defeated by a female, I think it's reasonable to assume that there are one or more female soldiers in Conan's army.

The Witch King would be so occupied with fighting an opponent as indomitable as Conan that he would be completely defenseless against the inevitable attack by Conan's current love interest.


Also, as you refered, Conan is quite good at geting hot strong chicks and powerfull warriors fighting for him. Problem is, those people normally end up dead, since they don't know to run away when outgunned.

Conan is a solo hero wich is a master of using other people as cannon fodder. How much Conan companions have survived more than one adventure with him?

Actually most survive. Howard just never bothers to include them in his next story or say what happened to them, which doesn't necessarily mean they're dead. Anyway, the female red shirt would live long enough to do what she needs to.

As for the massive battle, Conan is a brilliant tactician, but for the sake of the argument let's assume the Witch King is too. However, the Witch King is an undead abomination who can only command through fear, and his orc soldiers are well established as being stupid and cowardly. But any soldier inspired by Conan would be fearless in battle due to Conan's awe-inspiring presence, and so they could quickly turn the tide and get the cowardly orcs to route.

As for the Witch King's fear aura, Conan has faced countless foes with similar abilities, and all they've managed to do is get him pissed off and kicking their ass.

[EvilElitest]

I want to ask something. I know that Conan fought against cosmic lovecraftian horror, and I know that he fought against physical gods before. He know various language, how to counter Black Magic, is a master thief, expert warrior, brilliant tactician and he isn't afraid to call what he's doing "grave robbing" or "theft". Actually he's as much Adventurer Archeologist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdventurerArchaeologist) as a raging barbarian.

1) examples please? We really do lack infomation
2) Even so, i doubt any of those skills can help him however



What's the strongest physical thing he's ever fought before? And compared to witch king, which is stronger? Sorry if the comparation had been done, I've read this thread from the beginning to the end, but I might be missing one or two pages.
See all of WG's posts, it will educate you a great deal, i think he covers a lot of it


And why does I have this feeling, that without his prophetical armor, WK would be in the losing side. I read a lot of X vs Witch King, and most argument told about how he was prophetically protected. Huh. I agreed those question about validity of the prophecy. I've read the line about the prophecy itself, but still can't figure it out.

1) The Pro WK form looked further into it, see WG post on p 3 i think, it explains a lot
2) Also Even without his protection (at least from men) he has his other protection, and his massive magical power

Is
it, because someone scryed for the future and saw WK's death? So basically, it would be useless if somebody tried to kill WK because it's just not his time to die. Or undie. Or redied. Whatever.

No, its more like a shield. Men simply can't hurt him fatally. Nothing was particular to Eowyn, she just happened to be a women on the field


Can't people fight fate? Conan is known to fighting fate (maybe, I kinda forgot. Isn't there a scene, somewhere, where Conan fought fate and win by sheer badassery?).

I don't think it matters, this isn't a fate question


As usual, it seems that I'm in the losing side.

Stop arguing against me then, your win a lot more :smallwink:



Oh, and Callos, though I have nothing personal against you, I must curse you because you're in the way for the One True Pairing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneTruePairing).

Gah, i don't love Rutee. I just obessivly think about her, how many times do i need to tell you that

Also one question, why do i get teased for this and not her?


blink* Er...ok..kay? Well fine, I curse you too.
See i knew callos loved me





It probably won't work. Rutee and EE are like a protagonist and a tsundere pairing...

Though the jury is still out on who's who.
I thought i was the magnificent bastard, and she is a tsundere. Which actually rather fits



Not in Robet E. Howard's stories, unless it was by some plot device. He's never lost a one on one battle, and invincible sorcerers are no exception. And he has never relied on magical weapons to win, with one exception. So with that non-canonical magic belt he's got, I personally would say that he doesn't even need the cohort, but since everyone is saying that the Witch King absolutely has to be defeated by a female, I think it's reasonable to assume that there are one or more female soldiers in Conan's army.

The Witch King would be so occupied with fighting an opponent as indomitable as Conan that he would be completely defenseless against the inevitable attack by Conan's current love interest.

People people can we stick to the facts. Cohan only has 500 against 2,000, you give Cohan more men, the WK his his tens of thousands. Also isn't hte belt canon

Now remember, nobody here seems to have read the cohan books. So you need to back up your points with evidence please, because we don't know it ourselves

Also do women normally fight in such a nation's army? I find it rather hard to believe and we can't assume that they would have women soilders simply for hte sake of fairness


s for the massive battle, Conan is a brilliant tactician, but for the sake of the argument let's assume the Witch King is too. However, the Witch King is an undead abomination who can only command through fear, and his orc soldiers are well established as being stupid and cowardly. But any soldier inspired by Conan would be fearless in battle due to Conan's awe-inspiring presence, and so they could quickly turn the tide and get the cowardly orcs to route.
wrong on a few notes
1) We know that the WG is a good tactician, he has a very good record
2) I think his being undead is an advantage, not a disadvantage
3) Actually, your thinking of the wrong orcs. The orcs who serve the WK are deathly loyal to him, to the point that they will fall upon their own swords to avoid displeasing him. They are also established to be good warriors, at least archers when they are well motivated
4) And you overestimate Cohan's commanding powers. He might resist the fear but you forget, the shear power of the fear/despair of the Nazgul, plus the BB


As for the Witch King's fear aura, Conan has faced countless foes with similar abilities, and all they've managed to do is get him pissed off and kicking their ass.

how? Really we don't know of any anti fear magic Cohan has. So his men will be effected by both teh fear, the despair, and the BB
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

Gah, i don't love Rutee. I just obessivly think about her, how many times do i need to tell you that

Also one question, why do i get teased for this and not her?

Your...an easier target? Thats the only logical response I can think of. :smalltongue:


See i knew callos loved me

Wait a minute, I don't think 'Subtle Hints 101' covered how a declaration of ill will towards one person can count as a statement of affection to someone else. :smallconfused: This is what I get for skipping class.



People people can we stick to the facts. Cohan only has 500 against 2,000, you give Cohan more men, the WK his his tens of thousands. Also isn't hte belt canon

Now remember, nobody here seems to have read the cohan books. So you need to back up your points with evidence please, because we don't know it ourselves

Also do women normally fight in such a nation's army? I find it rather hard to believe and we can't assume that they would have women soilders simply for hte sake of fairness

The women of Aquilinoia don't fight in it's army. They could, conceivably, but they don't because they consider it improper. This I DO know for a fact, the women don't fight in the army.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Well, I'm rereading the setup and it's definitely stacked against Conan, seeing as he has an inferior number of troops, and the terrain and time of day favors the Witch Kings troops. Still, in one of the stories Conan was able to destroy an entire company of city guards by setting up a trap that caused an avalanche to slay them all. Given enough time he could do the same here, which wouldn't be enough to win him the battle, but might just give him an opportunity, after suffering terrible casualties, to go one on one with the witch king. Shooting down the Witch King's mount and going into melee with him would be well within the barbarians abilities.

The prophecy is irrelevant, it states in the setup that Conan has a magic belt that makes him capable of harming the Witch King. Conan's will is unshakable, he once encountered the old god Thog and instead of succumbing to Thog's fear aura, he got pissed off and killed Thog because he was making the mistake of trying to rape Conan's girlfriend. Bad move.

If Conan is capable of harming something, he can and will kill it. Even if he can't harm his opponent he has a proven track record of finding a way around that. Once he was forced to fight a thousand year old sorcerer who had transformed himself into some kind of living stone. Conan found that his sword was completely incapable of harming his opponent, so he fought a retreat, grabbed the one weapon that could kill the sorcerer, and put him back to sleep. Furthermore, Conan is incredibly well-educated from a life-time of traveling the world, getting himself into and out of trouble. If there is a way to defeat the Witch King, Conan would have heard of it.

After Conan has defeated the Witch King he's got to fight his way to safety, now that his army is probably on the verge of losing if it hasn't been already utterly decimated. Conan has been in this situation before where he lost a battle due to being sorely outnumbered. The battle ended with him being completely surrounded and alone by the enemy army, and they couldn't capture him. Whenever someone stepped into his reach, they died. The only way they could finally put him down was to get a sorcerer who could move with inhuman speed to rush past his reach and poison him with a barbed ring. So yes, Conan might be slain by the Witch King's loyalists, but if he fought his way to safety, it wouldn't be the first time.

[warty goblin]

Well, I'm rereading the setup and it's definitely stacked against Conan, seeing as he has an inferior number of troops, and the terrain and time of day favors the Witch Kings troops. Still, in one of the stories Conan was able to destroy an entire company of city guards by setting up a trap that caused an avalanche to slay them all. Given enough time he could do the same here, which wouldn't be enough to win him the battle, but might just give him an opportunity, after suffering terrible casualties, to go one on one with the witch king. Shooting down the Witch King's mount and going into melee with him would be well within the barbarians abilities.

The prophecy is irrelevant, it states in the setup that Conan has a magic belt that makes him capable of harming the Witch King. Conan's will is unshakable, he once encountered the old god Thog and instead of succumbing to Thog's fear aura, he got pissed off and killed Thog because he was making the mistake of trying to rape Conan's girlfriend. Bad move.

If Conan is capable of harming something, he can and will kill it. Even if he can't harm his opponent he has a proven track record of finding a way around that. Once he was forced to fight a thousand year old sorcerer who had transformed himself into some kind of living stone. Conan found that his sword was completely incapable of harming his opponent, so he fought a retreat, grabbed the one weapon that could kill the sorcerer, and put him back to sleep. Furthermore, Conan is incredibly well-educated from a life-time of traveling the world, getting himself into and out of trouble. If there is a way to defeat the Witch King, Conan would have heard of it.

After Conan has defeated the Witch King he's got to fight his way to safety, now that his army is probably on the verge of losing if it hasn't been already utterly decimated. Conan has been in this situation before where he lost a battle due to being sorely outnumbered. The battle ended with him being completely surrounded and alone by the enemy army, and they couldn't capture him. Whenever someone stepped into his reach, they died. The only way they could finally put him down was to get a sorcerer who could move with inhuman speed to rush past his reach and poison him with a barbed ring. So yes, Conan might be slain by the Witch King's loyalists, but if he fought his way to safety, it wouldn't be the first time.

This seems to me to be a rather 'meta' argument, and narrative causality makes for a poor case, specifically because it is the underlying (and generally unstated) assumptions of the story to which the character is native. Since they are unstated, but architectual to the world in question, I find it generally best to leave narrative causality and meta arguments by the wayside. It is, using narrative causality as an arguement, just as valid to state that Conan is incapable, no matter what magical buffs are applied, of harming the Witch King, because the underlying principle of the Witch King only being able to be killed by a woman was Tolkien's way of subverting the prophesy in MacBeth, which was hence made a structural element of the the character of the Witch King. Narrative causality is a zero sum game, and is fairly iminical to the concept of the vs. thread as well.

There is of course an exception, there always is. In the case of Diskworld, narrative causality can be explicitly used, simply because it is an explicitly stated and enforced power in reference to characters, and not kept lurking in the background.

This is not to belittle your evidence, which is quite good and very useful, particularly given the lack of data we have available, I just dislike meta arguments because in the end they get nowhere.

[Dervag]

Not in Robet E. Howard's stories, unless it was by some plot device. He's never lost a one on one battle, and invincible sorcerers are no exception. And he has never relied on magical weapons to win, with one exception.That would be "the Devil in Iron," right?

I don't know all the Conan stories, but I have that one.


Actually most survive. Howard just never bothers to include them in his next story or say what happened to them, which doesn't necessarily mean they're dead.Yeah, that's true. The Howard Conan stories don't come anywhere close to filling Conan's life with wall to wall adventures. That's one reason why there was so much room for extra Conan 'expanded universe' stories and novels to be written after Howard's suicide. So most of the adventures are spaced six months to a year apart and take place in a completely different country from the one he was in in the previous adventure. Thus, no persistent companions.


1) examples please? We really do lack infomation
2) Even so, i doubt any of those skills can help him howeverLook, the only easy way to prove it is to read Conan stories.

However, it is a matter of fact that he has repeatedly foiled magicians with powerful protections, does speak many languages, is familiar with many cultures, and so on. He has won many battles through clever tactics, and he has proven a very skilled cat burglar at times (he's very good at climbing and stealth).

Put simply, if there is a skill related to the art of war or thievery, Conan is probably quite good at it, and if there is a piece of knowledge about some culture or legend, Conan is very likely to either already know it or know where to find someone who does know it.

It's fundamental to the nature of the character. Conan can go anywhere from the arctic north to a tropical jungle. Within months of his arrival, he can find a niche in the local culture, lead an army of local warriors, battle the ferocious local monsters, and generally kick butt and take names. That's what adventurers are supposed to be able to do. Conan was a major influence on the D&D concept of 'wandering adventurers.'

A dumb guy wouldn't be able to do that.


No, its more like a shield. Men simply can't hurt him fatally. Nothing was particular to Eowyn, she just happened to be a women on the field Wait a minute.

Where's your proof again?

Tolkein's concept of magic doesn't have a lot of invulnerable yet highly selective force fields kicking around. It's far more likely that the Witch King is fated not to be slain by a man in the Lord of the Rings continuity than that he is somehow completely invulnerable to the attacks of any and every thing with a Y chromosome. At least, that's the way the books make it look. Can you provide me with a compelling reason to believe otherwise?


Now remember, nobody here seems to have read the cohan books. So you need to back up your points with evidence please, because we don't know it ourselves I have read a number of the Conan stories. And I can vouch for his clever generalship, his ability to find local allies (often female ones) to support his operations, and his familiarity with fighting sorcerers. If you want me to quote chapter and verse it will be harder. I don't really have time for it.

You don't have to take my word for it, but I would REALLY appreciate it if you did. Or if you could read the stories yourself; they are available in plenty of languages. I'm not lying to you here. I honestly do not have time to dig up old Conan novels trawling for examples of his cunning and versatility that I KNOW are there.

Will you accept my solemn word that Conan really is a good tactician with a knack for finding local allies?


Also do women normally fight in such a nation's army? I find it rather hard to believe and we can't assume that they would have women soilders simply for hte sake of fairnessA LOT of Conan stories that include an army have Conan's love interest coming along, either openly or disguised as a soldier.


4) And you overestimate Cohan's commanding powers. He might resist the fear but you forget, the shear power of the fear/despair of the Nazgul, plus the BBOK. He, personally, is practically immune to magical fear. He has faced MANY opponents that would send an ordinary soldier fleeing in terror and fouling themselves. Scores of them. He has NEVER succumbed to a magical fear attack of any kind, despite the fact that he has gone up against the world's mightiest wizards.

However, you're probably right that he won't be able to compel his soldiers to stand against the Witch King directly. Can he get them to hold out if the Witch King is just flying around the battlefield? I wouldn't be surprised.

[Fri]

To be honest, I never read the novels. I only read some comics and watched the movie a couple of times.

And read obsessively about Conan in the net because it linked to Lovecraft....

[Oslecamo]

In the first LOTR book when Frodo is put on top of the elven horse to escape(no elven maiden to help him this time), there's a moment in wich he takes out his magic dagger(in the book all the hobbits got magical daggers before meeting up with Aragorn) to try to face the black riders. One of the black riders(the witch king I think) makes some kind of magic and destroys the magical dagger at distance.

But then, the river managed to tackle them down, but they ended up coming back with those darck drakes. My opinion is that they aren't exactly invulnerable, but unless attacked by some really nasty profetic attack, they simply reform themselves and come back for another round.

[GoC]

1) It will never die. Really, how did you miss that? Were you reading in bad light?
2)yes, and WT truth destroys your point, the same way my abilty to read a book passage cleared up a misconception:smalltongue:
6) and Frodo was stunned and had to be carried for a while before recovering, but he was fine thanks to the mail shirt
10) well knowing Tolkien's love of legends, most likely something like strength, protection, ect

1) I've honestly no idea. The text wraps around at the bit where the flames run down it. I must have kept missing that line.
2) I can't even remember what was my "point".
6) The sheer force of the blow should have broken ribs and if it had hit his shoulder he would never be able to use that arm again. Then again tolkien wasn't an expert on weaponry...
10) Sounds plausable. A pity the only instance of a magic item of function unrelated to form are the rings of power...


1) We know that the WG is a good tactician, he has a very good record
3) Actually, your thinking of the wrong orcs. The orcs who serve the WK are deathly loyal to him, to the point that they will fall upon their own swords to avoid displeasing him.
1) The only one in the books that I know of (excluding the apendix) is the siege of Minas Tirith where he got killed and displayed little tactical ability or leadership skills.
3) That sounds more like a deathly fear. WK probably knows a few fates that are worse than death.


My opinion is that they aren't exactly invulnerable, but unless attacked by some really nasty profetic attack, they simply reform themselves and come back for another round.
Conan only has to defeat the Witch King not kill him. And even then a sword to the face aparently works. B)

[Zenos]

*snip*
orc soldiers are well established as being stupid and cowardly.
*snip*

What? From what I've seen they seem rather clever, although I can agree with the cowardly part.

[warty goblin]

1) The only one in the books that I know of (excluding the apendix) is the siege of Minas Tirith where he got killed and displayed little tactical ability or leadership skills.
3) That sounds more like a deathly fear. WK probably knows a few fates that are worse than death.

Conan only has to defeat the Witch King not kill him. And even then a sword to the face aparently works. B)
1) I've said this before, and apparently I'm saying it again. The Siege of Minas Tirith was in many ways a strategic masterpiece. The attack was sudden, overwhelmingly powerful and more than sufficient to destroy the forces that the Witch King had any way of knowing were present. All known routes of access for the Rohirrim were cut off, excepting Woden forest, which was assumed by pretty much everyone on both sides to be impassible. The corsairs were used to draw off much of the strength of Gondor and still be available to participate in the actual siege if need-be. To me this has all of the hallmarks of a good plan, deny the enemy reinforcements along all known routes, draw off much of their strength in a feint that costs you nothing, then strike them fast and hard, utilizing phsycological warfare, advanced engineering, all with a large body of reinforcements inbound just in case.

Even taken completely by surprise and flanked by the Rohirrim, the Witch King's army still was winning. It took the arrival of another army of men on ships that should have been bearing reinforcements, a quite literally hostile change in the weather, and the destruction of their leader to actually break Mordor's forces, and even then the battle was pretty hard. In my opinion, holding your army together when quite literally the best cavalry in the world appear out of nowhere on your flank and start making orc past out of it, then actually turning around and beating them, shows some pretty significant leadership chops.

3) Terrifying beyond reason, or ideological commander bent on lifting up the common orc prolitariet and allowing them to throw off the yoke of Numenorean oppression through a leaflet campaign and large peaceful rallies, it's pretty irrelevant. The point is that his army follows him with fairly insane devotion.

[Oslecamo]

Now that I thinck about it, the 9 riders aren't exactly an example of bravery. If Conan managed to somehow crush Wk forces, he would surely prefer to retreat than fight.

However, Conan is more used to small scale battles. As far as I remember he never has been in any large scale battle like those of the LOTR.

It's pretty easy to get outmaneuvered when fighting a large battle if you don't know what you're doing. And 2000 guys bashing each other is a LOT.

I suport that probably most of Conan troops will end up afected by the fear aura and runing away. Conan will bravely hold a small pocket but end up overruned by numbers. Yes, this has hapened in the books. Conan isn't some kind of terminator machine who kills whole armies single handedly.

[Dervag]

Even taken completely by surprise and flanked by the Rohirrim, the Witch King's army still was winning. It took the arrival of another army of men on ships that should have been bearing reinforcements, a quite literally hostile change in the weather, and the destruction of their leader to actually break Mordor's forces, and even then the battle was pretty hard. In my opinion, holding your army together when quite literally the best cavalry in the world appear out of nowhere on your flank and start making orc past out of it, then actually turning around and beating them, shows some pretty significant leadership chops.That, or a really big army.

I mean, if you're throwing around divisions of orcs while the enemy is using regiments of men, the orcs are liable to win.


Now that I thinck about it, the 9 riders aren't exactly an example of bravery. If Conan managed to somehow crush Wk forces, he would surely prefer to retreat than fight.

However, Conan is more used to small scale battles. As far as I remember he never has been in any large scale battle like those of the LOTR.

It's pretty easy to get outmaneuvered when fighting a large battle if you don't know what you're doing. And 2000 guys bashing each other is a LOT.

I suport that probably most of Conan troops will end up afected by the fear aura and runing away. Conan will bravely hold a small pocket but end up overruned by numbers. Yes, this has hapened in the books. Conan isn't some kind of terminator machine who kills whole armies single handedly.Though he has been known to cut his way free of whole armies single-handedly, or to elude whole armies single-handedly.

I think Conan has enough experience in command of company to regiment sized forces that he wouldn't be totally out of his depth in a battle with a few thousand troops involved on each side. One of the many 'hats' he wears as an adventurer is that of mercenary commander.

[EvilRoeSlade]

No Conan couldn't destroy an entire army. But that doesn't mean the entire army could destroy Conan. If the past is any indication of the future, he would survive through cunning, instinct, and sheer martial prowess.

Conan has handled troops of much higher numbers on many occasions.

So what I think is that Conan's army would lose the battle because the setup has them outnumbered, outclassed, and on the enemies home turf, but Conan would be able to drag out the battle long enough for him to either escape, or assassinate the Witch King and then escape.

I will concede that this one is more or less a draw.

[Somebloke]

O distinctly recall Conan leading men in a number of stories (A Witch shall be Born, the People of the Black Circle, most of the stories set during his time as King of Aquilonia)- in every occasion, his troops have shown discipline and courage, often defeating armies of a much larger size. Furthermore, he has led during his time nomadic tribesmen, african warriors, noble knights, pirates, mercenaries, vikings...the man has an amazing gift for leadership and tactics.

As for the Witch King himself, I have to agree; if there exists a loophole within Conan's reach regarding the Witch King, Conan will exploit it. In the end, it all comes down to the prophecy. If it can be overcome, then Conan will overcome it. He practically makes a career out of this sort of thing.

[Dervag]

He does make a career out of this sort of thing.

In his line of work, he needs a talent for exploiting holes in magical defenses and protections. Wizardry is rare in Hyborea, but not so rare that kings and priests won't try to use it against a dangerous adventuring warrior like Conan. If Conan couldn't protect himself from magic through courage and resourcefulness, he'd be dead.

[EvilElitest]

Your...an easier target? Thats the only logical response I can think of. :smalltongue:

I think it is envy


Wait a minute, I don't think 'Subtle Hints 101' covered how a declaration of ill will towards one person can count as a statement of affection to someone else. :smallconfused: This is what I get for skipping class.

You need to take the class it makes perfect sense. Well unless your a man, but still.
Logically, if he is cursing you because of a possiblity of the CallosXEE ship, as it goes against hte RuteeXEE ship (which is pure evil, evil i say). If you opposed the ship itself (CallosXEE that is) you would have simply backed down, but instead you cursed him in return. If your a girl, this is an obvous sign of affection

.....

My avater's French, don't bother to argue against my logic, it will help you not



The women of Aquilinoia don't fight in it's army. They could, conceivably, but they don't because they consider it improper. This I DO know for a fact, the women don't fight in the army.

So it makes sense to not expect any women in Cohan's forces? Ok thanks


Well, I'm rereading the setup and it's definitely stacked against Conan, seeing as he has an inferior number of troops, and the terrain and time of day favors the Witch Kings troops.
Well yeah, that is what happens when one side is stronger. IF both aren't nerfed, then the WK has tens of thousands of really nasty troops, plus extra from Harad and hte East


Still, in one of the stories Conan was able to destroy an entire company of city guards by setting up a trap that caused an avalanche to slay them all. Given enough time he could do the same here, which wouldn't be enough to win him the battle, but might just give him an opportunity, after suffering terrible casualties, to go one on one with the witch king. Shooting down the Witch King's mount and going into melee with him would be well within the barbarians abilities.
1) Didn't he know the area for that one?
2) I think the orcs will simply overrun his forces too quickly. Actually, Cohan would most likely do a hit and run, but time favors the orcs as more and more of his men will break under the BB fear/despair powers from the WK
3) His men are against orc forces, at night, in unknown terrain, with hte nazgul overhead
4) Why would the WK come into range? He can do what he did at Minis Tirith and simply fly really high over head and just use hte Black Shadow, fear and despair while his moral bostered orcs go for the happy man flesh. He would attack directly if his men were about to lose like when he killed Theoden. So Cohan has to take his out numbered men, at night, against damn nasty snipers, well armored and well trained orcs (who may be weakered but there are more of them) who know the area and can see at night, while his men don't know the area nor their foes, with men becoming sick, losing hope, or simply running away. Cohan is going to have to defeat this orcs to hte point where they need the WK to come down to pick off troops, and then Cohan has to shoot him down, then fight him without getting too injured by the orc hoards nor losing too many men. Then he has to actually hurt the WK



The prophecy is irrelevant, it states in the setup that Conan has a magic belt that makes him capable of harming the Witch King. Conan's will is unshakable, he once encountered the old god Thog and instead of succumbing to Thog's fear aura, he got pissed off and killed Thog because he was making the mistake of trying to rape Conan's girlfriend. Bad move.

1)The WK's protection is a spell
2) The magic belt protects cohan, it does not nulify the WK's protections
3) I know that Cohan won't be affected by fear, his men however will be


If Conan is capable of harming something, he can and will kill it. Even if he can't harm his opponent he has a proven track record of finding a way around that. Once he was forced to fight a thousand year old sorcerer who had transformed himself into some kind of living stone. Conan found that his sword was completely incapable of harming his opponent, so he fought a retreat, grabbed the one weapon that could kill the sorcerer, and put him back to sleep.
So? He has no knowledge of the WK, how could he know that he can't hurt it until it is too late. He can't automatically know "Hey, i can't hurt this guy unless i'm not living nor a man. Hmmmmmm"


Furthermore, Conan is incredibly well-educated from a life-time of traveling the world, getting himself into and out of trouble. If there is a way to defeat the Witch King, Conan would have heard of it.

WTF? How does this even begin to make sense. How can cohan possible know about things beyond his universe. All vs. threads work under the assumption that nether side is aware of the other's powers and abilities




Conan has been in this situation before where he lost a battle due to being sorely outnumbered. The battle ended with him being completely surrounded and alone by the enemy army, and they couldn't capture him. Whenever someone stepped into his reach, they died. The only way they could finally put him down was to get a sorcerer who could move with inhuman speed to rush past his reach and poison him with a barbed ring. So yes, Conan might be slain by the Witch King's loyalists, but if he fought his way to safety, it wouldn't be the first time.

Cohan isn't super human i will remind you


However, it is a matter of fact that he has repeatedly foiled magicians with powerful protections, does speak many languages, is familiar with many cultures, and so on. He has won many battles through clever tactics, and he has proven a very skilled cat burglar at times (he's very good at climbing and stealth).
1) Knowing many cultures is useful yes, but it doesn't let him automatically know hte WK's weaknesses
2) I know he is a good general, i never said other wise. However he is out matched here, literally what can he do?



Put simply, if there is a skill related to the art of war or thievery, Conan is probably quite good at it, and if there is a piece of knowledge about some culture or legend, Conan is very likely to either already know it or know where to find someone who does know it.
But he can't know stuff from worlds totally unrealated. Cohan doesn't know the plot of Kingdom Hearts nor would he know the Wk's weaknesses



A dumb guy wouldn't be able to do that.
I never said he was dumb, just not infallible, nor omitpotent nor omi powerful



Wait a minute.

Where's your proof again?

Tolkein's concept of magic doesn't have a lot of invulnerable yet highly selective force fields kicking around. It's far more likely that the Witch King is fated not to be slain by a man in the Lord of the Rings continuity than that he is somehow completely invulnerable to the attacks of any and every thing with a Y chromosome. At least, that's the way the books make it look. Can you provide me with a compelling reason to believe otherwise?
as said before

To be perfectly honest, I'm reasonably sure that it's not the prophesy doing the actual protection, but rather some sort of explicit arcane protection granted to the Witch King by dint of being Lord of the Nazgul and generally evil and undead. He pretty clearly knows about it for one thing, and it strikes me as unlikely that whomever made the prophesy at the fall of Angband (their name escapes me atm) sent him a note: "Dear Witch King, try to avoid fighting chicks and hobbits, 'cause there's this prophesy that says they are gonna kill you."

To rephrase this slightly, imagine the Witch King is a tank, and somebody says "I predict that he will not be killed by handheld non-explosive firearms." That is a prophesy, but the prophesy is not what is protecting the tank from getting destroyed by assault rifles, that's the 50+mm of armor plating. That's in effect all that the prophesy about the Witch King says as well, it's an explicit statement that certain things just won't hurt him, not that Eowyn will kill him at Pelennor Fields at such and such an hour of the day. "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" is the exact line. Now if the 'prophesy' said that Eowyn, only Eowyn and nobody but Eowyn would kill him, then I'd completely agree, it's story line specific, but it's generally open wording and the general knowledge everybody has of it suggests, at least to me, that this is just another one of his powers, and not something ordained by Fate.




You don't have to take my word for it, but I would REALLY appreciate it if you did. Or if you could read the stories yourself; they are available in plenty of languages. I'm not lying to you here. I honestly do not have time to dig up old Conan novels trawling for examples of his cunning and versatility that I KNOW are there.

Will you accept my solemn word that Conan really is a good tactician with a knack for finding local allies?
I'm not calling you a liar, and i never have. I'm saying, unless Cohan has more tricks we aren't aware of, the ones he currently has can't help him here. He can put up a good fight, but he can't win


A LOT of Conan stories that include an army have Conan's love interest coming along, either openly or disguised as a soldier
This situation however does not


OK. He, personally, is practically immune to magical fear. He has faced MANY opponents that would send an ordinary soldier fleeing in terror and fouling themselves. Scores of them. He has NEVER succumbed to a magical fear attack of any kind, despite the fact that he has gone up against the world's mightiest wizards.
I know Cohan is pretty much immune to fear, his men will suffer the most however and even Cohan can't take on literally 100 of orcs


1) I've honestly no idea. The text wraps around at the bit where the flames run down it. I must have kept missing that line.
2) I can't even remember what was my "point".
6) The sheer force of the blow should have broken ribs and if it had hit his shoulder he would never be able to use that arm again. Then again tolkien wasn't an expert on weaponry...
10) Sounds plausable. A pity the only instance of a magic item of function unrelated to form are the rings of power..
1) I will never let you forget
2) Exactly
6) its a spear not a mace, in the stomach not hte ribs

1) The only one in the books that I know of (excluding the apendix) is the siege of Minas Tirith where he got killed and displayed little tactical ability or leadership skills.
3) That sounds more like a deathly fear. WK probably knows a few fates that are worse than death.
1) Dude the siege of Minas Tirith was masterful. It took 5 deus ex machina to defeat it and even then it was a good fight
2) Point remains that is still super loyalty


That, or a really big army.

I mean, if you're throwing around divisions of orcs while the enemy is using regiments of men, the orcs are liable to win.
but as can be seen from the books, they were being used very well.



Though he has been known to cut his way free of whole armies single-handedly, or to elude whole armies single-handedly.

I think Conan has enough experience in command of company to regiment sized forces that he wouldn't be totally out of his depth in a battle with a few thousand troops involved on each side. One of the many 'hats' he wears as an adventurer is that of mercenary commander.

1) in his wiki article it says he isn't super human
2) even with his good men, his troops are going to be suffering even when they aren't killing orcs


No Conan couldn't destroy an entire army. But that doesn't mean the entire army could destroy Conan. If the past is any indication of the future, he would survive through cunning, instinct, and sheer martial prowess.
This is a vs. thread, not a book. No plot armor. Cohan isn't superhuman



So what I think is that Conan's army would lose the battle because the setup has them outnumbered, outclassed, and on the enemies home turf, but Conan would be able to drag out the battle long enough for him to either escape, or assassinate the Witch King and then escape.

I will concede that this one is more or less a draw.
1) you realize both sides are nerfed right? The WK should have tens of thousands orcs alone
2) the Wk will crush him. Cohan may be good, but he simply cannot win
from
EE

[GoC]

EE, I've a question: Why didn't the super-good orc snipers kill some of the main characters?
Wouldn't it make sense to snipe the guy who's killed tens of your comrades?


as said before :

To be perfectly honest, I'm reasonably sure that it's not the prophesy doing the actual protection, but rather some sort of explicit arcane protection granted to the Witch King by dint of being Lord of the Nazgul and generally evil and undead. He pretty clearly knows about it for one thing, and it strikes me as unlikely that whomever made the prophesy at the fall of Angband (their name escapes me atm) sent him a note: "Dear Witch King, try to avoid fighting chicks and hobbits, 'cause there's this prophesy that says they are gonna kill you."
That's a statement of opinion not an argument.


This is a vs. thread, not a book. No plot armor. Cohan isn't superhuman
Niether where the people who defeated Sauron or the epic people in the Silmarillion who killed a hundred men each...

even Cohan can't take on literally 100 of orcs
Why not? Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli did. Legolas and Gimli got about 50 each right?

[warty goblin]

EE, I've a question: Why didn't the super-good orc snipers kill some of the main characters?
Wouldn't it make sense to snipe the guy who's killed tens of your comrades?


As I recall, that's pretty much what happened to Boromir, since he was cutting a black swath through the orcs with his sword, and cutting everyone who stood against him down. Those were Uruk-Hai however, not your run of the mill bog standard orc.

During one of the night legs of the boat trip down the Anduin Frodo was shot by an orc from the shore, but was saved by his Mithril vest- now with genuine built in Orc-stopper technology!

Faramir got shot off of a running horse by a Southron/Haradrim as well. He didn't die, but it was a pretty close thing. Aragorn almost got shot after his parley with the Uruk Hai at Helm's Deep as well, but he got under cover before they could hit him. Orcs and other assorted evil things thus do try, and quite often suceed, at shooting main characters, it's not like saying they do this is a stretch of their usual practices at all, since they seldom seem to pass up an opportunity to pincushion somebody.

As to why it didn't happen in larger battles like Helm's Deep or Minas Tirith, simply put in a close melee like that it's going to be darn near impossible to actually get a shot off, what with the charging horses and clashing sheild walls and generally the fact that the press is so darn close.

[Dervag]

So it makes sense to not expect any women in Cohan's forces? Ok thanksIt wouldn't be surprising for there to be a woman in Conan's forces, because Conan has a habit of bringing his love interest of the moment along on his adventures. Indeed, he often ends up involved in the adventure because of the love interest. However, the woman in question would not be a member of the Aquilonian army.


Well yeah, that is what happens when one side is stronger. IF both aren't nerfed, then the WK has tens of thousands of really nasty troops, plus extra from Harad and hte EastWait... what?

That was the Witch King's army from when he was laying siege to Minas Tirith, not his personal bodyguard. You can't assume he'll have all those troops with him for a random "vs." encounter, any more than you can assume Conan has the largest army he has ever commanded. And since Conan was a king at one point, that's pretty big.


1)The WK's protection is a spell
2) The magic belt protects cohan, it does not nulify the WK's protections1)How do you know this?
2)I'm afraid you are mistaken. Remember, the original poster was very specific:
A belt that give Conan some resistance against the sorcery of the Witch King and lets him harm the WK.The belt does in fact allow Conan to harm the Witch King. Therefore, it must "nulify the WK's protections."

By the way, it really is "Conan" with two "N"s, not "Cohen" or "Cohan." No kidding.


WTF? How does this even begin to make sense. How can cohan possible know about things beyond his universe. All vs. threads work under the assumption that nether side is aware of the other's powers and abilitiesActually, there are tons of vs. threads that make exactly the opposite assumption, so your claim about "All vs. threads" working under the assumption that "nether side is aware of the other's powers..." is not true.

But in this specific case you're probably right. Conan might very well not know the details of the Witch-King's powers. Whoever gave him the belt would probably have briefed him on the basics ("You can't hurt him without wearing the belt, he exudes magical fear that only the strongest men can overcome...") But that's merely a reasonable guess, and therefore you will disregard it by default, so I'm not going to expect you to believe it.


Cohan isn't super human i will remind youYou know, you could argue about that point. He's like Batman- he's as strong as the strongest humans, as smart as the (almost) smartest humans, as sneaky as the sneakiest humans, and so on. In combination, that arguably makes him mildly superhuman, because while no one of his abilities is beyond human levels, the combination of high abilities is very unlikely.


as said beforeTo be perfectly honest, I'm reasonably sure that it's not the prophesy doing the actual protection, but rather some sort of explicit arcane protection granted to the Witch King by dint of being Lord of the Nazgul and generally evil and undead. He pretty clearly knows about it for one thing, and it strikes me as unlikely that whomever made the prophesy at the fall of Angband (their name escapes me atm) sent him a note: "Dear Witch King, try to avoid fighting chicks and hobbits, 'cause there's this prophesy that says they are gonna kill you."

To rephrase this slightly, imagine the Witch King is a tank, and somebody says "I predict that he will not be killed by handheld non-explosive firearms." That is a prophesy, but the prophesy is not what is protecting the tank from getting destroyed by assault rifles, that's the 50+mm of armor plating. That's in effect all that the prophesy about the Witch King says as well, it's an explicit statement that certain things just won't hurt him, not that Eowyn will kill him at Pelennor Fields at such and such an hour of the day. "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" is the exact line. Now if the 'prophesy' said that Eowyn, only Eowyn and nobody but Eowyn would kill him, then I'd completely agree, it's story line specific, but it's generally open wording and the general knowledge everybody has of it suggests, at least to me, that this is just another one of his powers, and not something ordained by Fate. I understand the reasoning, but I'm not sure it counts as proof. Remember Macbeth.

Seriously, please do not ignore the analogy to Macbeth. Or to a variety of mythological characters who could only be killed in highly specific ways.

Also, please do not ignore the magic belt, or fool yourself into thinking it does not have the properties it is stated to have. That magic belt is actually quite important to the outcome of the thread, and ignoring it leads to foolishness.

Keep in mind that even I, who think Conan is a very clever general who might well beat an army of 2000 orcs with 500 men, all else being equal, and that the magic belt will give him the ability to harm the Witch King, think the odds are stacked against him.


I'm not calling you a liar, and i never have. I'm saying, unless Cohan has more tricks we aren't aware of, the ones he currently has can't help him here. He can put up a good fight, but he can't winFrankly, if it weren't for the Black Shadow/Breath, I think he'd have a pretty damn good chance of winning. Conan has won battles with numerically inferior forces before, even against enemies who know the surrounding terrain fairly well. But with that factored in, I'd say his only chance is to seek out and slay the Witch King in single combat almost immediately, and I don't expect the Witch King to allow that to happen.


1) Dude the siege of Minas Tirith was masterful. It took 5 deus ex machina to defeat it and even then it was a good fightFive?

I have to ask, what does and does not count as a deus ex machina for purposes of this count?


but as can be seen from the books, they were being used very well....fairly well.

The book doesn't give that good an impression. Yes, the Witch King placed a blocking force to cut off reinforcements, but aside from that it wasn't what I'd call a masterpiece of extraordinary tactics. Unless, of course, the orc army was vastly smaller than I had thought.

Most of the actual damage done to the men of Gondor was done by a 'preparatory barrage' of psychological warfare that the Witch King didn't have to be very clever to launch.


1) in his wiki article it says he isn't super humanYes. However, he's really good. We're talking "Batman with a sword" good. A large group of men can seize him and restrain him. A large group of armed soldiers have a decent chance of taking him down if he cannot escape them quickly. But he has routinely been beset by large groups of armed warriors and escaped using terrain to his advantage (indoor environments count as terrain). Usually, he manages to kill several of the enemy warriors, too.

He is by no means invincible. But if there is any chance of any human being escaping from a given trap or ambush, Conan's got that chance. Well, unless the escape method involves a spelling bee or something.

If all 2000 orcs were to spontaneously appear around him shoulder to shoulder in a big circular horde on a flat plain, he'd be screwed. If 2000 orcs are chasing him through the ruins of Osgiliath, he's got a damn good chance of making it to the city limits because he can kill any one orc easily enough and because he's very good at cat-burglar work.


This is a vs. thread, not a book. No plot armor. Cohan isn't superhumanYes, but he has his own published skill set, right?

I mean, I can't say the "no plot armor" takes out the Witch King's Black Breath or his magical immunities. So you can't say that "no plot armor" takes out Conan's knack for evading numerous enemies. Again, if a hundred orcs were to surround him in an area with no accessible exits, Conan would be screwed. But in urban terrain, Conan has a good chance of escaping, because while he may not be superhuman he's about as good at what he does as any human ever born. Even if he's surrounded, it will take some time for orcs to bring him down, and he will be fighting very hard toward whatever exits are available.

He's gotten away from situations like that before because he's good at escaping hostile armies. Assuming he has a horse available, he could probably escape this situation altogether.

[Zenos]

Remember that the bonus ability of the belt, the ability to harm the WK, is something I put on to make this even possible to win for Conan.

[EvilElitest]

EE, I've a question: Why didn't the super-good orc snipers kill some of the main characters?
Wouldn't it make sense to snipe the guy who's killed tens of your comrades?

1) When did they have the chance? IN most of the major battles they are ether you know, routed or being chased by men with the pointy sticks, or fighting calvery which is hard, or it is day light. They snipe a lot during hte battle of Helm's Deep, but those are Uruks who don't see as well a night and the main characters have plot armor. Even then they kill a good many Rohan folks
2) Even then, they do pretty well for them selfs. Isildur, who is a very strong man, half was a across a river before he even becomes visable is shot down by one arrow i think, Boromir of course, Frodo is hit in the chest three times (chain shirt) same has a back back shot, Gandalf gets his hat shot, gimili gets show in the armor, boromir uses his shield ect. Also most of the time the use arrows they aren't in a situaiton where they can say "Hey, that dude killed ten of my buds, i'll aim for him


That's a statement of opinion not an argument.

one back and supported by the books



Niether where the people who defeated Sauron or the epic people in the Silmarillion who killed a hundred men each...

Yes they were actually. his wiki article says that he has trouble taking on large groups




Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli did. Legolas and Gimli got about 50 each right?
Yeah, but they weren't fighting them at once. They were in a fortress, with fotifications, using hit and run tatics, with a large army on their side. And they had a whole night. Cohan can only do so much



It wouldn't be surprising for there to be a woman in Conan's forces, because Conan has a habit of bringing his love interest of the moment along on his adventures. Indeed, he often ends up involved in the adventure because of the love interest. However, the woman in question would not be a member of the Aquilonian army.
However this is not specifically stated in the vs. thread situation. We are given 500 standard troops and 2,000 standard orcs. Normally these guys don't have women in the armed forces.


Wait... what?

That was the Witch King's army from when he was laying siege to Minas Tirith, not his personal bodyguard. You can't assume he'll have all those troops with him for a random "vs." encounter, any more than you can assume Conan has the largest army he has ever commanded. And since Conan was a king at one point, that's pretty big.
1) When i say not nerfed, i don't mean "only with personal bodyguard" i mean with all of their stuff. Which gives the WK a force in the hundreds of thousands from mordor alone (he has two ages of forces to rally) and plenty of nasties
2) Even with "Personal" armies, IE armies of small size, then the WK still has a force of many thousands at least from Minas Morgul and Angmar. Not to mentioned, he certainly get the other 8 nazgul. Which is very close to a win


1)How do you know this?
2)I'm afraid you are mistaken. Remember, the original poster was very specific:

1a) The protection against most weapons is specially said to be a spell
1B) And the other isn't a prophecy, at least in the Harry Potter sense. It might be considered a Prophecy in the Macbeth sense, but the protection itself is clearly a spell or protection of some sort, as WG shows. Prophicies in the Greek Sense don't often in ME (i don't forget Hurin, so it does occasionally) its more like a real power. No living man can hurt the WK, that is part of his power. If hte thing said "only the heir to the throne of Rohan can kill him on the third of october at 3:43 in the evening, while wearing a pink hat chanting the French National Anthem, and only using hte sword of mighty pokiness" then not paying attention to it is obvious, but this is a power inherent to the WK
2) A belt that from my first post i have been doubtful of its cannon ability. Does it say (in the original books that is). Does it say that he can't get hurt by any magic, does it nullify magic, does it let him hurt literally anything? (from what i recall, the stone sorcerer had to be tricked to hurt him, why didn't he just use the belt
3) and from all accounts, the sword and the belt are non cannoical, in which we are going against all of the ideas of vs. thread, IE, you don't give characters powers they have never posses. For example, we could give the WK a rocket launcher, but i don't think that really says anything about the WK's power, just the nifftyness of a rocket launcher



Actually, there are tons of vs. threads that make exactly the opposite assumption, so your claim about "All vs. threads" working under the assumption that "nether side is aware of the other's powers..." is not true.

No actually, no there. Almost all vs. thread assume both sides are fighting to the death for no real reason in a closed circuit. the only time hte foes are aware of each others abilities are when
A) they are already of aware of each other in their own worlds
B) The vs. thread situation specifically says so


But in this specific case you're probably right. Conan might very well not know the details of the Witch-King's powers. Whoever gave him the belt would probably have briefed him on the basics ("You can't hurt him without wearing the belt, he exudes magical fear that only the strongest men can overcome...") But that's merely a reasonable guess, and therefore you will disregard it by default, so I'm not going to expect you to believe it.
Which brings be back to another point, where does the belt come from? I mean you can't have these people fighting with non canon stuff. Does the belt come from a story


You know, you could argue about that point. He's like Batman- he's as strong as the strongest humans, as smart as the (almost) smartest humans, as sneaky as the sneakiest humans, and so on. In combination, that arguably makes him mildly superhuman, because while no one of his abilities is beyond human levels, the combination of high abilities is very unlikely.

shrug


Conan is far from untouchable and has been captured several times
from Wiki, i imagine that he is like Aragorn. Good but not unbeatable


I understand the reasoning, but I'm not sure it counts as proof. Remember Macbeth.

Seriously, please do not ignore the analogy to Macbeth. Or to a variety of mythological characters who could only be killed in highly specific ways.
I fail to see what is wrong with the reason. I don't think it is called a prophecy in the books, it is shown to be a protection .



Also, please do not ignore the magic belt, or fool yourself into thinking it does not have the properties it is stated to have. That magic belt is actually quite important to the outcome of the thread, and ignoring it leads to foolishness.
I suspect that it isn't cannon, which renders the thread pointless


Keep in mind that even I, who think Conan is a very clever general who might well beat an army of 2000 orcs with 500 men, all else being equal, and that the magic belt will give him the ability to harm the Witch King, think the odds are stacked against him.
With a deserting army? In good situations i agree. But with Conan not being able to keep his men from fleeing in pure terror?



Frankly, if it weren't for the Black Shadow/Breath, I think he'd have a pretty damn good chance of winning. Conan has won battles with numerically inferior forces before, even against enemies who know the surrounding terrain fairly well. But with that factored in, I'd say his only chance is to seek out and slay the Witch King in single combat almost immediately, and I don't expect the Witch King to allow that to happen.
Pretty much.


Five?

I have to ask, what does and does not count as a deus ex machina for purposes of this count?
...fairly well.

The book doesn't give that good an impression. Yes, the Witch King placed a blocking force to cut off reinforcements, but aside from that it wasn't what I'd call a masterpiece of extraordinary tactics. Unless, of course, the orc army was vastly smaller than I had thought.

Most of the actual damage done to the men of Gondor was done by a 'preparatory barrage' of psychological warfare that the Witch King didn't have to be very clever to launch.
No offense, but you need to re-read the whole battle, or at least the vs. threads summery. here is the situation
Preface- Sauron has been running a war of attrition for hundres of years now, slowly and surly destroying the gondorians bit by bit. By the time we arrive, Sauron thinks he has weakened Gondor itself enough to test their strength with his van guard. Even then however he wants to weaken the enemy forces. First he tries to use Sauroman to take Rohan out of the fight, fails due to a lot of reason, but does a lot of damage. He uses the goblins of the north and his own forces to the north to keep the good races isolated and slowly picks them off (remember the war of the ring is a world war). Gondor also is reduced to only a shell of its former sell and its sister realm is gone, and is greatly weakened by the nigh endless wars. Sauron sends his force. However he is careful, and sense nine whole armies
1) The army of Morgul, led by the WK. This is the greatest army to ever appear in the third age and is larger than the other eight armies put together. The do most of the grunt fighting
2) The black ships. 50 great ships, and i think about 150 smaller ships, a might fleet who are suppose to destroy Gondor's vassal realms and cut off supplies
3) The army of Harad. This army supports army 1 and is directly attacked by Rohan.
4) the army of the east, easterlings and what not. Also supports army one
5) The army of Othgiliath. This one was already at the city waiting for the Wk to arrive. They attack first and weaken Faramir's forces
6) another force from mordor, second largest army there is. Act as a general support
7) the army that is sent to cut off Rohan. The movie got it wrong, in the book an army was sent that was large enough to cut off the 6,000 riders, who, even with the element of surprise and calvary, admitted to standing no chance. However the went through the woods
8) the men of far harad/lesser men/Varags/cross breeds show up near the end of the battle, extra troops to fight when the sun comes up
9) Rear guard, under Gothmog, comes in near the end.

The battle is really really long against a lot of guys. Even with all of his advantages, Sauron plays it smart, uses siege machinery and tries to destroy gondor from within. However they almost win, here are the Deus ex machina
1) Gandalf shows up. gandalf wasn't even suppose to escape from Isengard, let along get a magic horse and randomly show up at Gondor and drive the Nazgul away
2) Denethor is stopped, and so the chain of command doesn't totally fall apart
3) The riders even get there, there weren't suppose to show up in the first place
4) The Woses come to aid them/the riders use the super secret pass through the woods and flank Sauron
5) The light!!!!!!! The power of the west destroys Sauron's cloud that blotted out the sun. Sucks for Sauron
6) The ghosts show up and destroy his navy
7) The men from the places where his navy should have destroyed instead get on the ships and attack Sauron's own men from behind, after getting into their ranks
8) Aragorn and a small army of elves and northern rangers show up.
9) The WK is miget shanked.
so nine, i'm sorry
Even then, massive battle and remember two things
1) Sauron recovers from the battle, he is fine. He lost a vanguard, but from a military point of view, he is fine.
2) Sauron's army would have been even bigger, but he thought that Aragorn was going to claim the ring, and so he attacked early



Yes. However, he's really good. We're talking "Batman with a sword" good. A large group of men can seize him and restrain him. A large group of armed soldiers have a decent chance of taking him down if he cannot escape them quickly. But he has routinely been beset by large groups of armed warriors and escaped using terrain to his advantage (indoor environments count as terrain). Usually, he manages to kill several of the enemy warriors, too.

He is by no means invincible. But if there is any chance of any human being escaping from a given trap or ambush, Conan's got that chance. Well, unless the escape method involves a spelling bee or something.

If all 2000 orcs were to spontaneously appear around him shoulder to shoulder in a big circular horde on a flat plain, he'd be screwed. If 2000 orcs are chasing him through the ruins of Osgiliath, he's got a damn good chance of making it to the city limits because he can kill any one orc easily enough and because he's very good at cat-burglar work.

oh sure, i know he is good, and i know he and some of his men will most likely destroy the orcs. I just don't think he can win. The orcs have so many advantages with the WK


Yes, but he has his own published skill set, right?

I mean, I can't say the "no plot armor" takes out the Witch King's Black Breath or his magical immunities. So you can't say that "no plot armor" takes out Conan's knack for evading numerous enemies. Again, if a hundred orcs were to surround him in an area with no accessible exits, Conan would be screwed. But in urban terrain, Conan has a good chance of escaping, because while he may not be superhuman he's about as good at what he does as any human ever born. Even if he's surrounded, it will take some time for orcs to bring him down, and he will be fighting very hard toward whatever exits are available.

He's gotten away from situations like that before because he's good at escaping hostile armies. Assuming he has a horse available, he could probably escape this situation altogether.
Oh publishes skill is fine, but you can't automatically assume he will be able to slaughter the orcs considering that his men are going to become ill, they are really really afraid, those that aren't are losing the will to fight. He will rally some of course and as of such he will do a lot of damage, but it is at night, the WK has attacked this city on quite a few occasions, and the orcs can see in the dark. Conan will do damage yes, but i don't think he can win with these odds, because he is too outmatched.
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Edit
OP,
Here is the thing, simply giving Conan, or any character non canon powers tends to be counter productive to the point of vs. threads. People like to know how their characters work and who is most powerful. Hence closed circuit, full power, unaware of other's powers ect. So the belt doesn't make sense. It is like giving the Wk a machine gun if he is fighting Seph. It would help, but it doesn't change anything. The Wk would still win of course, but hey, its seph

[Callos_DeTerran]

The battle is really really long against a lot of guys. Even with all of his advantages, Sauron plays it smart, uses siege machinery and tries to destroy gondor from within. However they almost win, here are the Deus ex machina
1) Gandalf shows up. gandalf wasn't even suppose to escape from Isengard, let along get a magic horse and randomly show up at Gondor and drive the Nazgul away
2) Denethor is stopped, and so the chain of command doesn't totally fall apart
3) The riders even get there, there weren't suppose to show up in the first place
4) The Woses come to aid them/the riders use the super secret pass through the woods and flank Sauron
5) The light!!!!!!! The power of the west destroys Sauron's cloud that blotted out the sun. Sucks for Sauron
6) The ghosts show up and destroy his navy
7) The men from the places where his navy should have destroyed instead get on the ships and attack Sauron's own men from behind, after getting into their ranks
8) Aragorn and a small army of elves and northern rangers show up.
9) The WK is miget shanked.
so nine, i'm sorry

...Most of those don't look like Deus Ex Machina...
1) This was simply poor planning. Sauron should have guessed where Gandalf would have gone if he escaped Isengard, which is not such an improbable thing. And even had he not gotten a magical horse Gandalf still probably could have made the trip in time to reach it. Sauron simply failed to account for Gandalf escaping.
2) This falls back into 1 in a sense. Had Gandalf been there, chances are he would stop Denethor. And he did. More importantly someone else could have disposed of Denethor aside from Gandalf once they saw what bad straights the crazy old guy was leading them into, actually any decently intelligent Gondorian could have stopped Denethor, even his personal guard so again...poor planning but I guess Sauron's plan didn't really hinge on this either.
3)The riders could have made it through. No one thought they would survive Helm's Deep either (yes yes I know, fortifitcations and what not but this is also light cavalry on it's most ideal terrain against what is most likely just infantry with some worgs.
4) This one probably counts as Deus Ex Machina. Nobody could have expected Saruman would get the Ents all angry which would make them inclined to act as diplomats to encourage the crazy tree things to help. bloody midgits.
5) Over-confidence. Sure Sauron is the big bad but don't rely on the bloody cloud to stay there just because you want it to.
6) Deus Ex Machina. That's plan enough to see.
7) This...isn't Deus Ex Machina...this is Sauron's troops failing their assignment and the guys taking over what the troops left behind.
8) Eh...this one is iffy...Sauron should have expected Elven interference but Aragorn and the rangers were probably a bit of a surprise. Or did Sauron find out about Aragorn before the battle at Gondor?
9) Part Deus Ex Machina but part not. Granted the WK couldn't have predicted the midget shanking but you should always have plans in place in case your main commander falls even if it's just a normal nazgul putting on the armor and pretending to be the Witchking.


Here is the thing, simply giving Conan, or any character non canon powers tends to be counter productive to the point of vs. threads. People like to know how their characters work and who is most powerful. Hence closed circuit, full power, unaware of other's powers ect. So the belt doesn't make sense. It is like giving the Wk a machine gun if he is fighting Seph. It would help, but it doesn't change anything. The Wk would still win of course, but hey, its seph

The belt is canon actually...or thats what somebody on the....second or third page said. That it was from a story called 'People of/from the Black Circle'. Granted it probably wasn't WK specific but apparently it had similar negating powers.

[EvilElitest]

...Most of those don't look like Deus Ex Machina...
1) This was simply poor planning. Sauron should have guessed where Gandalf would have gone if he escaped Isengard, which is not such an improbable thing. And even had he not gotten a magical horse Gandalf still probably could have made the trip in time to reach it. Sauron simply failed to account for Gandalf escaping.
2) This falls back into 1 in a sense. Had Gandalf been there, chances are he would stop Denethor. And he did. More importantly someone else could have disposed of Denethor aside from Gandalf once they saw what bad straights the crazy old guy was leading them into, actually any decently intelligent Gondorian could have stopped Denethor, even his personal guard so again...poor planning but I guess Sauron's plan didn't really hinge on this either.
3)The riders could have made it through. No one thought they would survive Helm's Deep either (yes yes I know, fortifitcations and what not but this is also light cavalry on it's most ideal terrain against what is most likely just infantry with some worgs.
4) This one probably counts as Deus Ex Machina. Nobody could have expected Saruman would get the Ents all angry which would make them inclined to act as diplomats to encourage the crazy tree things to help. bloody midgits.
5) Over-confidence. Sure Sauron is the big bad but don't rely on the bloody cloud to stay there just because you want it to.
6) Deus Ex Machina. That's plan enough to see.
7) This...isn't Deus Ex Machina...this is Sauron's troops failing their assignment and the guys taking over what the troops left behind.
8) Eh...this one is iffy...Sauron should have expected Elven interference but Aragorn and the rangers were probably a bit of a surprise. Or did Sauron find out about Aragorn before the battle at Gondor?
9) Part Deus Ex Machina but part not. Granted the WK couldn't have predicted the midget shanking but you should always have plans in place in case your main commander falls even if it's just a normal nazgul putting on the armor and pretending to be the Witchking.

1) actually he thought that Gandalf would stay with Aragorn and stay with the ring
2) actually, it wasn't gandalf who defeated Denethor, it was pippin. Sauron underestimates fat midgets look at it that way
3) and a large army was sent to counter them in the off chance they were able to make it (remember another very large army was attacking Rohan from the north and he expected Theoden to defend his own nation
4) yeah
5) Ok, you can't expect god powers every time you make a plan.
6) yep
7) the navy was destroyed by ghost before they could finish their job. When the ghosts took their boats and a lot of troops finished the job.
8) He knew that aragorn was coming, but the elves and rangers showed up at the last second
9) well losing your commander at the worst possible moment is very unlikely, through he did have Gothmog take over. It didn't help however



The belt is canon actually...or thats what somebody on the....second or third page said. That it was from a story called 'People of/from the Black Circle'. Granted it probably wasn't WK specific but apparently it had similar negating powers.
Really, that helps, what are its cannoncal powers?
from
EE

[GoC]

2) Even then, they do pretty well for them selfs. Isildur, who is a very strong man, half was a across a river before he even becomes visable is shot down by one arrow i think, Boromir of course, Frodo is hit in the chest three times (chain shirt) same has a back back shot, Gandalf gets his hat shot, gimili gets show in the armor, boromir uses his shield ect. Also most of the time the use arrows they aren't in a situaiton where they can say "Hey, that dude killed ten of my buds, i'll aim for him
That's... some pretty good plot armor.


one back and supported by the books
Ok, now you're just being silly. WG doesn't quote anything in the books that says it's anything other than a profecy.


Yes they were actually.
A lot of them were Homo Sapiens, the rest are elves who are just as strong and resilient as humans (but have more experience and dexterity). Fact.


Yeah, but they weren't fighting them at once. They were in a fortress, with fotifications, using hit and run tatics, with a large army on their side. And they had a whole night. Cohan can only do so much
You have a point there. Conan has wiped out large forces though.


from Wiki, i imagine that he is like Aragorn. Good but not unbeatable
I imagine he is more like Luthien's lover or that guy... his name began with a T? Slew the first dragon?


I fail to see what is wrong with the reason. I don't think it is called a prophecy in the books, it is shown to be a protection .
It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. Where is it shown?!:annoyed:


It is like giving the Wk a machine gun if he is fighting Seph. It would help, but it doesn't change anything. The Wk would still win of course, but hey, its seph
It just occured to me that pretty much the only person you'd admit is certain to beat the Witch King is Susan Death...

[EvilElitest]

That's... some pretty good plot armor.

As I said, not that bad. They aren't elves, but they aren't crap


Ok, now you're just being silly. WG doesn't quote anything in the books that says it's anything other than a profecy.

Um, nor does he quote anything to say it wasn't a spell. If it was a prophecy, at least in the Oracle of Delphi sense, i imagine he wouldn't be flaunting it in such a manner. Really, considering spell or natrual abilty inherent to the WK is the more logical manner, i mean it is like how vampires can't be hurt by non silver weapons. This isn't like "you shall kill your own brother" This is basically "living men can't hurt me"



A lot of them were Homo Sapiens, the rest are elves who are just as strong and resilient as humans (but have more experience and dexterity). Fact.

elves, particularly those of such heritage basically are super human in ME. You can't argue against that. They aren't godly by any stretch, but certanly uber. And you have two extremly powerful humans




You have a point there. Conan has wiped out large forces though.

oh he is good, i don't deny it, but he when he defeated large forces i imagine he had a few advantages to turn the tide. Knowledge of the terrain, defensive positions, lack of giant nazgul

I imagine he is more like Luthien's lover or that guy... his name began with a T? Slew the first dragon?
meh, no way to tell


It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. It is shown. Where is it shown?!:annoyed:
Calm down. As WG said, it is used in the real content of the books the same way the vampires protection from magic, or a tanks protection from small semi auto hand guns. This isn't like the prophecy "only your brother can kill you" sort of thing, it is more like "Only a silver weapon can hurt a vampire"



It just occured to me that pretty much the only person you'd admit is certain to beat the Witch King is Susan Death...
This isn't fanboyness, this is logic. For example, i imagine there are plenty of people who can defeat the WK. Conan, cool as he may be, just isn't one of them
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

Point of order, before we must deal with some guys fantasy of Conans love interest killing the WK.
Conan has a belt that allows him magical protection and the ability to harm the WK (But we are vague on the belt itself, and I actually question its effectiveness against LotRs magic). No one else has this, to bypass the WKs shield.
In other words... females, even if they are in play, couldn't harm the WK at all. They basically have the opposite bonus as Conan. Shield against them, prophecy with them.

People seem utterly oblivious to the fact that Conan is outmatched, even with his advantages over the WK (which I believe were unjustly given, just for the sake of making it an fair fight). WK has darkvision, I do so believe, and he knows the territory, it is night time, he has snipers as almost every one of his soldiers. He can spread this disease among Conans ranks and cause sheer terror in them and even cause them deathly losses with the Black Breath. If he was to fly down to a single squad of Conans soldiers, they would...
Guess...
A) Run away in sheer terror.
B) They would be ailed by a plague they never even knew.
C)Sit down for a tea party, and sing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuNQFBWvC4o (this):smalleek:
D) A & B
If you said D, you are correct. Million dollars for you. If you said C... not the brightest answer, but the funniest, I'll concede.
I'll admit, if faced with physical combat, WK may lose, but Conan is not a sue in for victory. BB, disables the limb and destroys weapons of those who attack him or even touch him. Also, I know for a fact that the WK is in truth invisible... he and his homies just wear cloaks to announce their presence in a fearful way. WK could walk up to Conan and disable him before they even start fighting. And whats to prevent 200 orcs from sniping Conan? 200 hundred arrows fired, likely from all sides, a dozen or so should hit, and that would also hinder Conan. He may be more powerful than most men, but he is only human.
Seriously people, put some of our facts into consideration... actual consideration.

[EvilRoeSlade]

People seem utterly oblivious to the fact that Conan is outmatched, even with his advantages over the WK (which I believe were unjustly given, just for the sake of making it an fair fight). WK has darkvision, I do so believe, and he knows the territory, it is night time, he has snipers as almost every one of his soldiers. He can spread this disease among Conans ranks and cause sheer terror in them and even cause them deathly losses with the Black Breath. If he was to fly down to a single squad of Conans soldiers, they would...
Guess...
A) Run away in sheer terror.
B) They would be ailed by a plague they never even knew.
C)Sit down for a tea party, and sing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuNQFBWvC4o (this):smalleek:
D) A & B
If you said D, you are correct. Million dollars for you. If you said C... not the brightest answer, but the funniest, I'll concede.


[quote]I'll admit, if faced with physical combat, WK may lose, but Conan is not a sue in for victory. BB, disables the limb and destroys weapons of those who attack him or even touch him. Also, I know for a fact that the WK is in truth invisible... he and his homies just wear cloaks to announce their presence in a fearful way. WK could walk up to Conan and disable him before they even start fighting. And whats to prevent 200 orcs from sniping Conan? 200 hundred arrows fired, likely from all sides, a dozen or so should hit, and that would also hinder Conan. He may be more powerful than most men, but he is only human.
Seriously people, put some of our facts into consideration... actual consideration.

Conan's finely honed instincts would enable him to battle the witch king even if he was unable to see him. 200 orcs would never have the opportunity to snipe him at once since in a ruined city Conan can and will take advantage of plenty of cover. And finally, saying that Conan is only human is sort of like saying a rocket launcher is only a firearm.


No actually, no there. Almost all vs. thread assume both sides are fighting to the death for no real reason in a closed circuit. the only time hte foes are aware of each others abilities are when
A) they are already of aware of each other in their own worlds
B) The vs. thread situation specifically says so

So now we're making up our own rules?

This is one of Conan's abilities. Whenever he meets some bizarre monster or long-dead sorcerer reborn, he always happens to know something about them which aids him in the ensuing battle.


1B) And the other isn't a prophecy, at least in the Harry Potter sense. It might be considered a Prophecy in the Macbeth sense, but the protection itself is clearly a spell or protection of some sort, as WG shows. Prophicies in the Greek Sense don't often in ME (i don't forget Hurin, so it does occasionally) its more like a real power. No living man can hurt the WK, that is part of his power. If hte thing said "only the heir to the throne of Rohan can kill him on the third of october at 3:43 in the evening, while wearing a pink hat chanting the French National Anthem, and only using hte sword of mighty pokiness" then not paying attention to it is obvious, but this is a power inherent to the WK

Doesn't Pippin end up killing the Witch King? If it's magical protection then it would stand to reason that you need magic of similar power to penetrate it. Pippin didn't have any magic. Thus it stands to reason Conan doesn't need any magic to kill the Witch King either.

Also, I'm pretty sure the belt is not Canon, at least not in any of Howard's stories. But frankly I don't think Conan needs it.

[Artemician]

I'm going to butt in here just to clarify one point with everyone.

Regarding the Nature of the Witch-King's "No man can hurt me" statement.

It is NOT a Protection.

Anyway, here are the exact quotes for your perusal.


But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-King turned to flight and passed into the shadows.
...
Earnur now rode back, but Glorfindel, looking into the gathering dark, said: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."


A sword was rang as it was drawn. "Do what you will, but I will hinder it, if I may.

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

There's no evidence to suggest that the Witch King has any sort of sexist and racist barrier spell that protects him from human males only.

In the first quote, Glorfindel is making a prophecy. He says "The Witch King will not be slain by a man. He is MOST ASSUREDLY NOT SAYING that men cannot hurt the Witch King.

In the second quote, the Witch King is laughing at Eowyn and declares that no man can impede him. This statement is in part due to his confidence to the prophecy made by Glorfindel will hold true, and in part due to his confidence that he is of sufficient power than a mere man will not be able to get in his way. While you COULD read it as his boasting of some invulnerability of sorts, in the context given by the first statement it does not seem very plausible.

[EvilElitest]

Conan's finely honed instincts would enable him to battle the witch king even if he was unable to see him. 200 orcs would never have the opportunity to snipe him at once since in a ruined city Conan can and will take advantage of plenty of cover. And finally, saying that Conan is only human is sort of like saying a rocket launcher is only a firearm.
1) Conan can fly? Really. I imagine it would be hard to get a guy who is flying on a fel beasts out of bow range above the city.
2) maybe not at once, but there is going to be a lot of fighting in this city and orcs make very good snipers, more so at night. And they use poisoned arrows. so over the course of the battle where Conan drives back the 2,000 with this sick and deserting force, he is going to get shot at a lot. Remember, the orcs know the terrain, they have fought her before against other people who use hit and run tactics



So now we're making up our own rules?

no we are following the conventional rules and common sense. A person from one world cannot have knowledge of somebody from another


This is one of Conan's abilities. Whenever he meets some bizarre monster or long-dead sorcerer reborn, he always happens to know something about them which aids him in the ensuing battle.


In his world yes, because he can read stuff about them, learn tricks and gossip. In a totally different world, no, he doesn't haver omipotence


Doesn't Pippin end up killing the Witch King? If it's magical protection then it would stand to reason that you need magic of similar power to penetrate it. Pippin didn't have any magic. Thus it stands to reason Conan doesn't need any magic to kill the Witch King either.
wrong on several points
1) Its merry, not Pippin
2) The WK has two protections. The first is a general protection against any not good anti undead magic weapon. THe second is gender based.
3) He had defeated Eowyn when he was midget shanked. Merry didn't kill him, just destroyed his first defend.
4) Eowyn stabs him in the face



Also, I'm pretty sure the belt is not Canon, at least not in any of Howard's stories. But frankly I don't think Conan needs it.
Fair enough

Artemician ,i don't think so


" Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."
it just says he won't be killed by a man, the same way you might say a were wolf won't be killed by a iron sword
from
EE

[Artemician]

,Artemician ,i don't think so

" Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."
it just says he won't be killed by a man, the same way you might say a were wolf won't be killed by a iron sword


Precisely.

Glorfindel is *predicting* that the Witch King will not be slain by a Man. He is not saying that the Witch King has magical protections in place that will stop him being slain by Men, ever.

The werewolf analogy is not entirely accurate; we know for a fact that a Werewolf cannot be slain except by Silver or Fire. Therefore, a statement of fact that werewolves can't be slain by Iron swords is entirely accurate.

However, we do not know for sure that the Witch King has a specific genderist enchantment placed on him. Glorfindel never mentioned it, the Witch King himself never mentioned it. What both of them did, was to express their belief that the Witch King would not be slain by a man.

Therefore, you can't make the claim that the Witch King has this specific enchantment placed on him, there's no evidence for it.

[EvilElitest]

Precisely.

Glorfindel is *predicting* that the Witch King will not be slain by a Man. He is not saying that the Witch King has magical protections in place that will stop him being slain by Men, ever.

The same way you might say "The ghost of EE shall not be hurt by the non magical weapons you bear"
Its Tolkien, he loves dramatics, that doesn't mean it isn't a protection


The werewolf analogy is not entirely accurate; we know for a fact that a Werewolf cannot be slain except by Silver or Fire. Therefore, a statement of fact that werewolves can't be slain by Iron swords is entirely accurate.

Wait, what? I think your saying that wrong, if a Werewolf cannot be slain except by Silver of Fire, then saying that an Iron sword can't hurt them is accurate right?



However, we do not know for sure that the Witch King has a specific genderist enchantment placed on him. Glorfindel never mentioned it, the Witch King himself never mentioned it. What both of them did, was to express their belief that the Witch King would not be slain by a man.

Not being slain by a man, because he was protected against men. Eowyn wasn't the only person who could have hurt him, any women could have hurt him



Therefore, you can't make the claim that the Witch King has this specific enchantment placed on him, there's no evidence for it.
Yes there is, the same evidence you use the claim prophecy. It never specifically calls it a prophecy i believe
from
EE